February 3, 201114 yr Im sure if the convention center is expanded northward, they would still be able to put in windows I am also certain that an entrance connecting the Amtrak without going through the ballroom. MMPI wants visitors to Cleveland to come away impressed with the city, and a dramatic view of the lake, Rock Hall, Stadium, and GLSC might be the most impressive in the city. Whats the problem?
February 3, 201114 yr The problem is that all our recent lakefront investments are being treated as abstract sculptures by this design. And the waterfront line is treated like a child's train set. I asked MMPI about this and they said it was inconceivable that convention-goers might arrive from the airport by train, even though we already spent millions to provide that opportunity. Maybe a front entrance isn't in their budget right now, which is fine I guess, but MMPI is in charge of this thing for decades. It would be nice to see a plan that involves more than a viewing area for the waterfront. We didn't build all that stuff to be gawked at from afar.
February 3, 201114 yr The problem is that all our recent lakefront investments are being treated as abstract sculptures by this design. And the waterfront line is treated like a child's train set. I asked MMPI about this and they said it was inconceivable that convention-goers might arrive from the airport by train, even though we already spent millions to provide that opportunity. Maybe a front entrance isn't in their budget right now, which is fine I guess, but MMPI is in charge of this thing for decades. It would be nice to see a plan that involves more than a viewing area for the waterfront. We didn't build all that stuff to be gawked at from afar. Who at MMPI did you ask?
February 3, 201114 yr Mark Falanga. He was keynote speaker at the Midtown Inc 2009 annual banquet and he took questions. My question was whether they planned for any rail connectvity and the short answer was no. He emphasized that the main entrance is on St. Clair, while the north face begins and ends with windows. He also said he considered their target market to be rail-averse.
February 3, 201114 yr OK, lets just nip this in the bud. There is no reason why we can't have a NCTC linked to the MMCC and a dramatic ballroom showing off Cleveland. I googled MMPI and North Coast transportation center. I was directed the the MMCC website where this article was linked; http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/06/intermodal_transportation_cent.html Cleveland plans intermodal transportation center to link key landmarks Published: Wednesday, June 23, 2010, 9:00 AM Updated: Wednesday, June 23, 2010, 9:20 AM CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Cleveland plans to build a long-awaited intermodal transportation center near the lakefront to link the new medical mart, convention center and Flats east bank redevelopment ... The new intermodal facility will likely be toward the east edge of Mall C so it doesn't block a ballroom in the new convention center to be fronted by a 25-foot-high wall of glass facing Lake Erie.
February 3, 201114 yr I remember this article. "Cleveland, which owns the land where the intermodal center will be built, eyed the property as a transportation link in developing the lakefront plan. Four years ago, the city was awarded $718,900 in federal funds by the Federal Transit Administration to plan an intermodal facility, Brown said. But the money sat unused because all the talk of lakefront development or a new convention center never led to any concrete plans. Until now. *** Half of the federal earmark funds, which are administered by RTA, expired two years ago and the other half expires June 30, which prompted the RTA board on Tuesday to give the money to Cleveland. The city will provide a 20 percent match, so about $432,000 will be available to prepare a plan and preliminary design." So talk of a new convention center, planned since 2007, never led to any concrete plans for NCTC "until now." Meanwhile, half the federal planning grant for NCTC expired... during the time MMPI was planning the MM/CC project, all the while insisting that rail connections to the facility were of little import. Had MMPI been on board all along, the MM/CC and NCTC could have been developed in conjunction with each other, as they should have been, and at far lower cost to local taxpayers. Now it's unclear when or if NCTC will ever happen. The only thing that's clear is that it cannot be an extension of the mall or the CC. It has to hide around the corner and link up to the CC with a long hallway, per the diagram in the article.
February 3, 201114 yr Punch -- unfortunately, as the articles says, this was conceived as part of the 3C rail project. (read: Killed by Kasich) "hosting a new Amtrak station that would be a stop on the proposed high-speed rail line between Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati," It doesn't mean they couldn't (shouldn't) make an inter-modal transportation center, but making one for Bikes, Pedestrians and the RTA line is really just the same as a waterfront line stop and a Mall D with an elevator to the Amtrak station.... There's no real impetus (or Federal funding for that matter) to make this happen anymore. MMPI and the Convention Center were the next best chance and getting real construction done across the tracks, and they didn't "bite".
February 3, 201114 yr These are some really cool plans, Thanks Burnham & w28th. A couple questions that keep coming to mind are, even if we do something like this, why will people use it? What uses will this enable that can't be done on the existing malls (before they were torn up)? The majority of plans that I've seen for the mall just seem like more of what we have now.
February 3, 201114 yr Niko -- Somethings that I did not add to my plans include all of the many additional uses/public spaces being considered. Check out the wiki page on Millennium Park (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Park) to see the dozens of public uses that this park has. People have discussed ice skating rinks, public theater space, public art (sculpture gardens), and of course additional landscape design to include secluded areas, shade, park benches, perhaps a children's jungle-gym area, and more creative ideas than I can offer alone! I must confess my "drawings" are just large plains of grassland, but in reality we would have landscape architects make it shaped, full or gardens and urban furniture, and public spaces. As for "what this does" is that it connects Public Square and downtown to the lakefront in a beautiful and pedestrian friendly manner. Right now you have to walk on the sidewalk of E9th or W 3rd (crossing many streets, and always surrounded by concrete and cars), or cross the Football Field paths to the stadium (iron, concrete, and spanning dirty railroad valleys). This would create a way to walk from Rock Hall, Science Center, Voinovich Park and the future Water Front developments to downtown proper that is continuous, parklike, green, and ....impressive.
February 3, 201114 yr ^ That pic is beautiful. It reminds me that there is an absolute dearth of well-manicured, well taken care of green space downtown. As I am looking out from the 34th floor of the Galleria, so much of the city just looks tired and un-loved. If you look at old postcards, like Edgewater Park for example, things were better in the past. You could tell that people were taking better care of green space, whether it was by volunteers, the city, or local horticulture society. I'd be really ecstatic if someday our Malls can in any way resemble the design in above pic, however simple it is.
February 3, 201114 yr I like that picture, but I am hoping for more of a millennium park, not another monument to grass. I hope it is active and teaming with people, local people, who USE the park. That is why I would like to see a sliver of the park used for a dog park. With all of the apartments, condos and townhouses within a half a mile of the malls, you would not only see the people at the park, but people walking to and from the park with their dogs. I also hope it can be used a bit like the OSU oval, where you see sunbathers, volleyball games, weird preachers, frisbees, etc. I can't see local residents playing tag football in the above picture. While I am sure many will disagree, my hope is that the mall is teaming with life. And when people consider moving to downtown Cleveland, they can walk over to the mall and see that downtown is actually a community
February 3, 201114 yr A playground with a splash park and dog run would go a long way toward making downtown more family friendly. I agree that a "monument to grass" is not the way to go.
February 3, 201114 yr ^^Agreed 1,000 times over. If nothing else this image needs to be in the minds of the group plan when they make decisions. I only put the landscaped design above to show that even areas of "grass" can be nicer than big squares of it. Creative, useful, interesting, interactive, and open spaces that allow for football, picnics, art installations, as well as the lunch crowd are essential
February 3, 201114 yr OK, lets just nip this in the bud. There is no reason why we can't have a NCTC linked to the MMCC and a dramatic ballroom showing off Cleveland. I googled MMPI and North Coast transportation center. I was directed the the MMCC website where this article was linked; http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/06/intermodal_transportation_cent.html Cleveland plans intermodal transportation center to link key landmarks Published: Wednesday, June 23, 2010, 9:00 AM Updated: Wednesday, June 23, 2010, 9:20 AM CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Cleveland plans to build a long-awaited intermodal transportation center near the lakefront to link the new medical mart, convention center and Flats east bank redevelopment ... The new intermodal facility will likely be toward the east edge of Mall C so it doesn't block a ballroom in the new convention center to be fronted by a 25-foot-high wall of glass facing Lake Erie. Ain't happening. When the 3C project got whacked, RTA and the city suspended this project too. They won't proceed on something that will serve only pre-dawn Amtrak trains and weekend-only light-rail trains. Now, the push is on to put this at Tower City for WestShore commuter and CVSR trains -- if Gilbert can be reached to design his casino to accommodate it. So any mall redesign should likely proceed without an intermodal transportation center facility as part of it. Moving on..... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 3, 201114 yr Ain't happening. When the 3C project got whacked, RTA and the city suspended this project too. They won't proceed on something that will serve only pre-dawn Amtrak trains and weekend-only light-rail trains. Now, the push is on to put this at Tower City for WestShore commuter and CVSR trains -- if Gilbert can be reached to design his casino to accommodate it. So any mall redesign should likely proceed without an intermodal transportation center facility as part of it. Moving on..... Really? Any plans to drop NCTC at this point are misguded. There's already an intermodal hub there with services that are scaleable, and it's at the nexus of our CC and our $$$ tourist attractions, regardless of 3C or CVSR or anything else. Once the CC is open, there would be a reason to run the WFL on more than just weekends... provided there's a front door on the CC. If it's not ever to be linked to the CC, then yeah, building the WFL was a colossal mistake. That seems like a key function for it. And one would hope that long term (even mid term) high speed rail plans involve better national service than Cleveland currently has. Do they plan on routing NYC-Chicago HSR through Tower City? If not, then NCTC is still a live issue, whether our current leadership sees that or not. NYC-Chicago HSR service seems as important to our future as west shore or CVSR, and there will eventually be 3C service as well. It seems like we're only planning month by month around here. I'm not even sure that can be called planning.
February 3, 201114 yr ^is anybody trying to "reach" Gilbert or is this just your hope? Not yet. The various rail interests will meet first then decide if they want to move forward with Tower City. Really? Any plans to drop NCTC at this point are misguded. There's already an intermodal hub there with services that are scaleable, and it's at the nexus of our CC and our $$$ tourist attractions, regardless of 3C or CVSR or anything else. Once the CC is open, there would be a reason to run the WFL on more than just weekends... provided there's a front door on the CC. If it's not ever to be linked to the CC, then yeah, building the WFL was a colossal mistake. It think you have that backwards. Designing the CC not to include the WFL would be the mistake. Don't forget that the WFL was beating annual ridership projections (800,000 actual vs. 600,000 projected) when the Flats were still ticking. Andd one would hope that long term (even mid term) high speed rail plans involve better national service than Cleveland currently has. Do they plan on routing NYC-Chicago HSR through Tower City? If not, then NCTC is still a live issue, whether our current leadership sees that or not. NYC-Chicago HSR service seems as important to our future as west shore or CVSR, and there will eventually be 3C service as well. It seems like we're only planning month by month around here. I'm not even sure that can be called planning. Planning for true HSR hasn't started. When it does, we're looking at a 15- to 30-year planning, development construction timetable. Discuss this in other threads, please. Back to the mall. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 3, 201114 yr These pics are all good, but I'd say anything that's going to cover the north facing wall of windows in the new convention center isn't going to happen. ... mere details when talking about the rebuilding of a large part of a city...
February 10, 201114 yr So here's another article about making downtown more cohesive from development to development. One of the thoughts I really liked is while there may not be money now for certain things, there is money for at least the utility hookups so they can easily be added later. http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2011/02/clevelands_group_plan_commissi_1.html
February 10, 201114 yr ^ Of course the first comment is from some dope who's worried about how far he'll have to park to get to the casino. I agree that having the foresight to put in the infrastructure to support amenities that maybe can't be installed today, is solid planning. I am curious as to what alterior purpose the planners would want to use the Bd of Ed building.
February 11, 201114 yr They added this to the article, I believe it wasnt there originally http://media.cleveland.com/pdgraphics_impact/photo/11cgmalljpg-b09cefc673b80f25.jpg
February 11, 201114 yr that is an excellent proposal. I am in full support of every one of those ideas.. especially with #7 - lighting. I think its crucial. With naming rights being a great sellpoint, I really think we will see a lot of this stuff proposed. Agreed that the board of ed building would make a great hotel. That has always been one of the most overlooked gems of the city, imho.
February 11, 201114 yr And thank God getting rid of the County Administration building was proposed! We've argued the need for a convention hotel on the CC/MM thread before... and that site would be great for one while getting rid of the hideous building that's currently there. I really like this plan for the Malls. And closing Ontario through PS would definitely help... of course even the article said that RTA would have a problem with that. I'm liking it!
February 11, 201114 yr that is an excellent proposal. I am in full support of every one of those ideas.. especially with #7 - lighting. I think its crucial. With naming rights being a great sellpoint, I really think we will see a lot of this stuff proposed. Agreed that the board of ed building would make a great hotel. That has always been one of the most overlooked gems of the city, imho. Wasn't the building across the street from the Board of ED. (BOE) slated to be a hotel? I believe it was going to be a Staybridge Suites. This must have been shelved when things went south with the economy in '08. I would think that building would be better suited for a hotel..but maybe there is room for a hotel at both locations.
February 11, 201114 yr that is an excellent proposal. I am in full support of every one of those ideas.. especially with #7 - lighting. I think its crucial. With naming rights being a great sellpoint, I really think we will see a lot of this stuff proposed. Agreed that the board of ed building would make a great hotel. That has always been one of the most overlooked gems of the city, imho. Wasn't the building across the street from the Board of ED. (BOE) slated to be a hotel? I believe it was going to be a Staybridge Suites. This must have been shelved when things went south with the economy in '08. I would think that building would be better suited for a hotel..but maybe there is room for a hotel at both locations. You are correct, but that building is currently being renovated to become the new home of a large law firm.
February 11, 201114 yr I think the commission has done a fine job. Signigicant, but not unrealistic or overly lofty, proposals. I agree that lighting is a key element to create the kind of public space envisioned. Love the idea for E3rd to have seasonal uses and the foresight to plan ahead despite current budget constraints. Good job Tony.
February 12, 201114 yr http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/grouplan/presentations/GPC_Presentation021011.pdf This is the link to the presentation pdf of The Group Plan Commissions recommendations. To do all that they ask is budgeted at around $90 million dollars. I sure hope all this can/could happen and the money could be found. This includes the restructured plan for Public Square. The presentation gives a much clearer picture than what The Plain Dealer has mentioned. I think the biggest shame about all of this is none of this money generated by the quarter cent tax increase imposed by cuyahoga county will be used for what the public's money should have been put towards. At least 10% of the overall budget should have been allocated to the funding of the public art aspects
February 14, 201114 yr http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/grouplan/presentations/GPC_Presentation021011.pdf This is the link to the presentation pdf of The Group Plan Commissions recommendations. To do all that they ask is budgeted at around $90 million dollars. I sure hope all this can/could happen and the money could be found. Hmmm. If only there were a new entertainment venue being added to Public Square within the next year that was going to bring in millions of dollars in tax revenue....
February 14, 201114 yr ^Believe me that is already spent in everybody's mind and it ain't going to be for any frickin park.
February 18, 201114 yr Ok, then for what? Cuyahoga County is expecting $18 million in casino taxes and Cleveland is expecting $30 million. I think that's a good amount to be used for renovating Public Square.
March 22, 201114 yr ^Your are correct- he proposed a slab long the E6th lot line with an atrium built over the resulting courtyard. I too hated it back then, in concept but it likely also looked like cheesy 80s suburban crap in design (I don't recall). Now I think I'd be OK even with the idea if done right. The green space fronting 6th is pretty but kind of useless. I'd trade it for a front lobby of a high quality hotel and the accompanying signs of life.
May 7, 201114 yr Vision of a gleaming downtown Mall is nearing a two-month, make-or-break deadline for engineering studies By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer Published: Saturday, May 07, 2011, 5:15 AM CLEVELAND, Ohio — The designers of the new Cleveland convention center and medical mart envision a lively makeover of the three-block downtown Mall with gardens, sport courts, reflecting pools, outdoor stages, public restrooms and fancy lighting. But few of the outdoor amenities, which go beyond the basic $465 million cost of the publicly funded project, will happen unless an additional $500,000 or so can be found within about two months to pay for preliminary engineering and design http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2011/05/post_4.html
May 9, 201114 yr Maybe Lou Frangos could donate it and get the naming rights to a future pocket park or somesuch at the Mall. :| <sarcasm>
April 20, 201213 yr Tomorrow... Pop Up Rockwell will rock what's possible for Cleveland's downtown streets Published: Friday, April 20, 2012, 5:15 AM By Tom Breckenridge, The Plain Dealer CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A stretch of urban back road will become a green, kicky showcase for what's possible in the downtown street grid. Starting Saturday, Pop Up Rockwell will transform five blocks of Rockwell Avenue into a testing ground for two-way bicycle lanes, sidewalk benches that filter runoff and public art. http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/04/post_7.html
April 20, 201213 yr I'll be there!!! Sounds like a lot might be made out of this week-long installation. Either the acceptance or rejection of it.
June 15, 201212 yr Just for fun -- because it's Friday -- imagine what could have been if Mr. Dream Big himself, Daniel Burnham had thought even bigger. I've always thought the asymmetric plan of a Mall *and* public square set up a lopsided city.
June 15, 201212 yr Er.....not to be immature or anything, but I don't think I'd want that to be the image of our city.
June 15, 201212 yr I'm no landscape architect, but could you weave a distinctive color brick walkway through the mall that arcs through it, and swoops people into the square using that same distinctive color brick?
June 17, 201212 yr Has anyone heard if any of The New Group Plan Commission's mall recommendations will be implemented or was this all just a pipe dream.
June 17, 201212 yr Has anyone heard if any of The New Group Plan Commission's mall recommendations will be implemented or was this all just a pipe dream. Things are still be discussed. Once something is announced, it will be posted here.
June 19, 201212 yr I'm no landscape architect, but could you weave a distinctive color brick walkway through the mall that arcs through it, and swoops people into the square using that same distinctive color brick? Yellow bricks?
June 19, 201212 yr Has anyone heard if any of The New Group Plan Commission's mall recommendations will be implemented or was this all just a pipe dream. The recommendations have the support of the city planning commission and mayor's office, but it's all a pipe dream until someone or thing comes up with $100 million to pay for all of the recommendations =p The city is looking for sponsors (non-profit foundations, corporate sponsors, ). As of May, they only had $2-3 million.
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