June 19, 201212 yr Also the County guy (forgot his name) has been hinting about providing some of the casino windfall money to go toward something roughly described as the redo of the mall and possibly public square. He has basically been suggesting that as part of a downtown development fund that the money could help fund the implementation of many of the suggestions that the commission comes up with.
June 19, 201212 yr ^while this would be helpful (if many vested interests can be convinced) it would of course be a drop in the bucket. This venture needs a huge private campaign similar to the United Way. Don't know who has the resources, time or will to do this. Also would of course be difficult since everyone (as always) have been asking the usual "wells" for $$$ and they are only so deep (plus corporations have been cutting back significantly in terms of this kind of giving).
June 19, 201212 yr ^The county is reportedly anticipating about $10M per year in casino money beginning in 2014, so "drop in the bucket" may be a little extreme, but yeah, clearly a lot more will ultimately be needed. From what I remember about the direction of the Mall plans, it's kind of a framework or a canvass that will lend itself pretty well to incremental implementation over a pretty long period. I can imagine seeing the"rooms" open up in a slow procession over several years.
June 19, 201212 yr If the county floated a 10-year, 3% $100 million bond, you'd need about $11.6 million per year to retire it. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 20, 201212 yr From what I recall, the "living room" approach of the mall redesign broke down the exterior pathways into maybe like 20 different spaces. There's nothing to stop us from incrementally staging the redesign in, creating visual representations of the project that can then increase likelihood of private donations and that create a longer sense of reactivating the space (i.e. a longer communal sense of "newness"). I thought that was part of the purpose of that plan's approach ... That we don't have to necessary raise $100 million before we break ground.
June 20, 201212 yr ^The county is reportedly anticipating about $10M per year in casino money beginning in 2014, so "drop in the bucket" may be a little extreme, but yeah, clearly a lot more will ultimately be needed. From what I remember about the direction of the Mall plans, it's kind of a framework or a canvass that will lend itself pretty well to incremental implementation over a pretty long period. I can imagine seeing the"rooms" open up in a slow procession over several years. It really would be a drop in the bucket because never in a million years would they or could they devote all 10 mil of the estimated casino revenue to such a project. There would be a taxpayer revolt, nor would other city and county officials be pleased. There is already a debate going on whether county casino revenue should be devoted to the City of Cleveland alone (downtown in particular) or spread out to other inner ring cities (which of course will delute its impact). Some Council members have all ready expressed displeasure with Fitzgerald for suggesting the "one big project downtown approach". Plus, even if all the $$$ is devoted downtown I don't see them giving it all to the mall or companion greening projects. As such a drop in the bucket.
June 20, 201212 yr So then float a $50 million bond to leverage federal and private funds for the remainder. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 21, 201212 yr Wasn't the city also considering putting the lion's share of their investment in downtown greenspace, particularly the malls and Public Square (with a smaller portion of funds going back to individual councilpeople for ward projects)?
November 14, 201311 yr People rarely take advantage of the mall as a meeting place anyway. In Washington, DC, The Mall is a gathering place, where people fly kites, gather for fireworks, play softball, kickball, flag football. The Cleveland Mall is just an open manicured space, more ornate than functional. Let's truly see it for what it is. Before the renovation and changes, the paths thru it provided a wonderful venue for street performers and food wagons. Unfortunately, that never came to fruition either. Let's face it, put in the attractions, and people will come. Otherwise, who goes downtown to sit on a grassy slope? Give people a reason to want to be there.....still waiting for all of the concerts.
November 14, 201311 yr Otherwise, who goes downtown to sit on a grassy slope? Give people a reason to want to be there.....still waiting for all of the concerts. Who sits on a grassy slope downtown? Those who are already living and working downtown. We all need parks in our neighborhoods to eat lunch, walk the dog, sketch the skyline on a notepad, throw snowballs at each other, etc. Downtown IS a neighborhood -- the fastest growing in NE Ohio. Back to the hotel..... How will hotel guest interface with the mall? Go to the public meeting and find out. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 14, 201311 yr When I worked downtown I regularly ate lunch on the mall till they started construction. I was never alone, though there weren't a lot of people either.
November 14, 201311 yr Otherwise, who goes downtown to sit on a grassy slope? Give people a reason to want to be there.....still waiting for all of the concerts. Who sits on a grassy slope downtown? Those who are already living and working downtown. We all need parks in our neighborhoods to eat lunch, walk the dog, sketch the skyline on a notepad, throw snowballs at each other, etc That sounds nice but doest happen. Its almost completely dead at all times. Between Mall A, B, and C, Huntington Park, Willard Park, Federal Building Park, Public Square, plus several plazas, that area is over saturated with public open space. None of it is surrounded by good uses/ground floor storefronts or any residential making things worse.
November 14, 201311 yr Thank you, ClevelandOhio, the Mall is not seen as a meeting place. We must provide the food trucks, encourage the street performers, bring the concerts.....otherwise it will not happen organically........let's be real.
November 14, 201311 yr I love European pedestrian plazas, like in Prague, Krakow, Munich.....but they all have ground level restaurants, stores......performers and street merchants.
November 14, 201311 yr One thing I would love to see is to use eminent domain to take the northwest corner of the parking lot at the corner of St Clair and West 6th. Put a nice park there and build an uptown like development on the eastern edge of the lot and north of Frankfort where the storefront would front both the park and the streets. This would create an active urban park like Rittenhouse Square. Plus eminent domain for the park might be a good first step to making those lots parking lots no more!
November 15, 201311 yr Discussion moved to this thread...... I do see office workers having their lunch down there, but we don't have enough people living downtown yet to make this a more active space. But perhaps we're getting close enough population-wise for the kinds of European plaza-type amenities Eurokie talked about. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 15, 201311 yr I still think a small corner or strip of the park for a dog park would be heavily used and make the space more lively.
November 15, 201311 yr I still think a small corner or strip of the park for a dog park would be heavily used and make the space more lively. Where is the closest dog park to downtown anyway? I know there is the new one near Zone Rec and another one on Washington Boulevard - technically Newburgh Heights - but I never even see that one being used.
November 15, 201311 yr Where is the closest dog park to downtown anyway? The median on Euclid :-D. I see people taking their dogs to poo/pee on there everyday. Hey - I guess that's what you get when you don't have a dog park.
November 15, 201311 yr I still think a small corner or strip of the park for a dog park would be heavily used and make the space more lively. Where is the closest dog park to downtown anyway? I know there is the new one near Zone Rec and another one on Washington Boulevard - technically Newburgh Heights - but I never even see that one being used. Tremont Park probably. They have a really nice, large dog park down there.
November 17, 201311 yr For one of my urban design project I put a dog park at Huron and Ontario across from Gund Arena.
November 18, 201311 yr Dogs are allowed in perk park and doggie bags are provided, but dogs cannot roam freely as it isn't not enclosed.
May 12, 201411 yr In case you haven't been down by the Mall recently, it's looking nice and pretty well maintained. Obviously could use someplace to sit and drink and enjoy the view. But hopefully it won't take will 2016 for that to happen .....
May 12, 201411 yr I was on the mall late last week and there were several people laying on the lawn, catching some sun, reading, etc. There were also some business guys throwing around a football and a nearby construction worker joined the pickup game of catch, which was a really cool example of the types of connections and things that can happen with that space.
May 13, 201411 yr ^ agree I saw quite a few people playing ball and frisbee on Thursday! Sure I'd like to see the park turn into some amazing, unique draw. But sometimes there aint nothing wrong with a well-taken care of grassy field. Oh, and it would be so much better to have the mall continue north to span the tracks/shoreway. I so wish we could resurrect that idea vs. the narrow skywalk gerbil tube proposal.
May 13, 201411 yr ^ agree I saw quite a few people playing ball and frisbee on Thursday! Sure I'd like to see the park turn into some amazing, unique draw. But sometimes there aint nothing wrong with a well-taken care of grassy field. Oh, and it would be so much better to have the mall continue north to span the tracks/shoreway. I so wish we could resurrect that idea vs. the narrow skywalk gerbil tube proposal.
May 13, 201411 yr Wish this similar downtown space in St Louis would inspire the end result in CLE http://citygardenstl.org/ Fountains, sculptures, gardens, all in one..
May 13, 201411 yr That Senior Games thing really needs to go too. The winter wasn't too kind to it. It either needs to be improved, or removed I think. At night I think it looks pretty cool, but during the day you can tell it's starting to succumb to wear.
May 18, 201411 yr Cleveland marathon ended at The Mall today. I caught the end of it, so missed the big crowds, but it was still fun right to the end, and Cleveland was the star of the show. Great to see The Mall being used like this. So cool ......
May 19, 201411 yr Looks like a much better place to finish than down by Browns Stadium. Hopefully they keep it this way.
June 22, 201410 yr Technically this wasn't a mall program, but it was next door to the mall outside the Police headquarters. A really cool exhibition of vintage police cars. Maybe somebody on this thread can remember being chased by one of these awesome looking vehicles (just kidding!). I took these pictures Saturday, no idea if it is still running today.
June 22, 201410 yr Wish this similar downtown space in St Louis would inspire the end result in CLE http://citygardenstl.org/ Fountains, sculptures, gardens, all in one.. We already had Fountains on the mall, remember?? The Hanna Fountains pipe system froze and unfroze year after year and damaged the under ground convention center. During the day, people would sit there, but other than that, they took away from usable space. At night they were a gay cruising ground.
June 22, 201410 yr This affects so many other projects that I could post this in several threads (this one, the Jacobs Public Square lot, the North Coast Transportation Center thread, Lakefront Development etc). Maybe I will! Connecting Cleveland with commission's plan Vision that is four years in the works could be boon for downtown By JAY MILLER Originally Published: June 22, 2014 4:30 AM Modified: June 22, 2014 8:02 AM People are coming back to downtown Cleveland. Some are coming to the Horseshoe Casino Cleveland at Public Square, others are coming to conferences at the new Cleveland Convention Center and the Global Center for Health Innovation. More people are living downtown in apartments and condominiums, some carved out of what used to be office buildings, from the Cuyahoga River to the Cleveland State University campus a mile-and-a-half away. Now, civic planners are proposing a $60 million plan to entice those people and others like them to spend more time downtown. And, in a dramatic measure for a city that mostly has turned its back on the waterfront for more than 200 years, they even want to make it easier to enjoy Lake Erie. It's all in the name of connectivity and bringing more life and comfort to a downtown that has been spottily developed. Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson in 2010 created the Group Plan Commission to oversee this transformation. The commission hired James Corner Field Operations of New York to redesign Public Square, and Gustafson Guthrie Nichol, a Seattle landscape architecture practice, to work on the Mall. The commission hopes to begin turning this vision into reality with a groundbreaking this fall for a redesigned Public Square. The central village green would run from Public Square north along the spaces of the city's central Mall to a bridge that would span the Shoreway and railroad tracks, carrying visitors to the museums along the lakefront. READ MORE AT: http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20140622/SUB1/306229972/connecting-cleveland-with-commissions-plan "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 21, 201510 yr I think there's a value on keeping the Mall spaces open and simple. But seems like a lot of people are envisioning something much more, varied and in-depth. In that regard, does anyone else think that the future mall landscape could follow the lead of what's being proposed at the Museum of Natural History? http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2015/02/first_look_cleveland_museum_of.html
February 21, 201510 yr I think there's a value on keeping the Mall spaces open and simple. But seems like a lot of people are envisioning something much more, varied and in-depth. In that regard, does anyone else think that the future mall landscape could follow the lead of what's being proposed at the Museum of Natural History? http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2015/02/first_look_cleveland_museum_of.html Are you saying to think more Central Park as opposed to National Mall?
February 21, 201510 yr I think there's a value on keeping the Mall spaces open and simple. But seems like a lot of people are envisioning something much more, varied and in-depth. In that regard, does anyone else think that the future mall landscape could follow the lead of what's being proposed at the Museum of Natural History? http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2015/02/first_look_cleveland_museum_of.html Are you saying to think more Central Park as opposed to National Mall? Yes, right! Well, obviously not on Central Park's scale. But the funding amounts that were initially thrown around for developing the malls suggested a lot more than a well kept grassy field. Again, I see value in both. It's cool to see people using that field for frisbee and touch football. There aren't too many places downtown to do that. That is, not until CSU (maybe, hopefully) gets a more inviting athletic complex that allows public use as at Kent and Akron and virtually every other college.
February 21, 201510 yr I think there's a value on keeping the Mall spaces open and simple. But seems like a lot of people are envisioning something much more, varied and in-depth. In that regard, does anyone else think that the future mall landscape could follow the lead of what's being proposed at the Museum of Natural History? http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2015/02/first_look_cleveland_museum_of.html Are you saying to think more Central Park as opposed to National Mall? Yes, right! Well, obviously not on Central Park's scale. But the funding amounts that were initially thrown around for developing the malls suggested a lot more than a well kept grassy field. Again, I see value in both. It's cool to see people using that field for frisbee and touch football. There aren't too many places downtown to do that. That is, not until CSU (maybe, hopefully) gets a more inviting athletic complex that allows public use as at Kent and Akron and virtually every other college. And Daniel Burnham beings to roll in his grave... I do like the idea of a more complicated park type setting, and I know that there are some negative consequences to the Group Plan design, but I do think there is a value to keeping the space open as part of the larger civic center area. I think the open lawn would be better if the area were surrounded by buildings that actually encouraged pedestrian activity, and my hope is that we will see more of that once the Hilton opens and there is some kind of regular programming on the Mall. Interesting to note though, regarding my National Mall reference, we often forget that the Mall in DC had a similar layout to what you were describing. It wasn't until the early 20th century that we got the unobstructed lawn that we have today.
February 21, 201510 yr I think there's a value on keeping the Mall spaces open and simple. But seems like a lot of people are envisioning something much more, varied and in-depth. In that regard, does anyone else think that the future mall landscape could follow the lead of what's being proposed at the Museum of Natural History? http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2015/02/first_look_cleveland_museum_of.html You're aware that the only substantial green space in the Museum of Natural History plan is essentially a zoo, right? ADDENDUM: I could definitely favor a more interesting design of the Malls, but the slope of Mall B and the fact that Malls B and C are essentially green roofs probably limits the options to some extent.
February 21, 201510 yr I think there's a value on keeping the Mall spaces open and simple. But seems like a lot of people are envisioning something much more, varied and in-depth. In that regard, does anyone else think that the future mall landscape could follow the lead of what's being proposed at the Museum of Natural History? http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2015/02/first_look_cleveland_museum_of.html You're aware that the only substantial green space in the Museum of Natural History plan is essentially a zoo, right? ADDENDUM: I could definitely favor a more interesting design of the Malls, but the slope of Mall B and the fact that Malls B and C are essentially green roofs probably limits the options to some extent. What? I posted the Museum article because it's precisely NOT that. Sorry but I thought I was pretty clear in that. I think there's a value on keeping the Mall spaces open and simple. But seems like a lot of people are envisioning something much more, varied and in-depth. In that regard, does anyone else think that the future mall landscape could follow the lead of what's being proposed at the Museum of Natural History? Read more: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,22937.385.html#ixzz3SPwaMuXG
February 21, 201510 yr ^I'm probably just being dense (seriously, very likely), but I don't really follow which part of the museum landscape you're referring to as possible inspiration for the mall. The museum renderings show a little bit of nice front yard shrubs and stuff, but the only big green area would be the relocated wildlife center, with an aviary, animal enclosures and tree canopy walk.
February 22, 201510 yr ^I'm probably just being dense (seriously, very likely), but I don't really follow which part of the museum landscape you're referring to as possible inspiration for the mall. The museum renderings show a little bit of nice front yard shrubs and stuff, but the only big green area would be the relocated wildlife center, with an aviary, animal enclosures and tree canopy walk. My assumption was that he was talking about this particular slide detailing the landscaping and path layout:
February 22, 201510 yr I would prefer trees to open grass. Trees reinforce the Forest City theme, they add endless visual variety, they break up winter winds and summer sun. They're almost always a part of any city park on this scale, so their absence here is notable. Big empty voids were a "feature" of the worst 60s-era urban renewal projects. In that sense, Burnham was ahead of his time. But even when large plazas like this are employed in traditional European layouts, as suggested by the architecture, they are rarely if ever just grassy fields. There's usually substantial evidence of landscape design.
February 22, 201510 yr ^I'm probably just being dense (seriously, very likely), but I don't really follow which part of the museum landscape you're referring to as possible inspiration for the mall. The museum renderings show a little bit of nice front yard shrubs and stuff, but the only big green area would be the relocated wildlife center, with an aviary, animal enclosures and tree canopy walk. You're not dense lol, I should have just explained it better. To clarify, I was pointing out how the Museum landscape calls for lots of interesting things, like varied multi-tiered landscaping, trees, exhibits, wetlands, pathways, educational areas, things you've mentioned etc. I was just wondering if those are the kinds of things that proponents of overhauling the Malls wanted to see. Me personally, I think the Malls function nicely as is; just simple well-kept open areas. But I could be won over by a drastically different plan that's as well-thought out and as interesting as what's going on at the Museum.
February 22, 201510 yr ^OK, gotcha. I'm guessing there are some serious practical limitations to developing much of the mall surface in that way, so may be moot. Not even sure the soil is deep enough for significant tree plantings, except in the tree wells lining the pathways, where trees are already planted. FWIW, below is the placeholder plan from Gustafson Guthrie, the landscape architects who worked on the MM/CC project (taken from the Group Plan Commission website: http://www.groupplan.org/the-malls/). I like its concept of landscaped "rooms" along the perimeter of Mall B. Each could be designed and sponsored/funded individually, so we wouldn't have to wait for another massive fundraising effort to see some action. Some could be reserved for rotating public art installations. There'd be some risk of design cacophony, I suppose, but probably a small risk given that the bulk of the overall area would be the open lawn. One other thing: if nothing else, the incline of Mall B makes it perfectly suited for concerts, movies, other performances, which also means the open-ness has some specific value. That's one reason why I'm not so keen on the performance hill part of Public Square. Seems potentially duplicative, though I guess the scale would be pretty different.
February 22, 201510 yr ^ thats going to be about as good as it gets to lively-ing up that area. it's all about the perimeter of the malls. i like the idea of different sponsors and programming going on along it, with rotating corporate activities or artwork or whatnot. that's a fine plan.
February 22, 201510 yr I would love to use that rise for an amphitheater. What a view, looking south from there. Can we assume the roof structure is rated for that kind of crowd on top?
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