Me and my friend are planning opening a bar/nightclub/lounge in Cleveland sometime in the next few  years. We plan on going all over the country to the best bar/lounges in all of the major cities and taking ideas from all of them. While discussing location of our future place of business, the beach/shore came up. The beach/shore makes for such a great environment that most Clevelanders never get to experience. I love Pier W and shooters, and I can't figure out why more establishments haven’t followed their lead.

 

Whenever you go to a city on the beach they always have a plethora of dining choices available with a great view of the ocean. While in Cleveland we don’t have an ocean, we have a Great Lake which provides views comparable to that of the ocean. I just can’t understand why we only have a couple of establishments available to us. Actually I can only think of those two that I named and The Sunset Grille on Whiskey Island, however that isn’t "actually" on the water like the other two.

If anyone knows of any places that I did not mention pleases correct me as I would like to check out those places.

 

Why is our waterfront dining options so limited?

 

Also while preparing for opening a place on the beach/shore, how many of you would visit? Or at least stop in once out of curiosity?

 

I think that niche used to be filled by the FEB.  All those bars, clubs, restaraunts lining the river with decks on the back.  Boats used to tie in right behind those establishments.

 

I encourage the effort though.  The question is where exactly are you contemplating?  It would be great if they did not put that Christie's right there on the west bank, but what is done is done.  The land north of CBS will have some options within the next 5 or 10 years.  Then, there is the new FEB of course. 

 

If I were you, I would try to capitalize on some area along the river as the lakefront land will be very hard to get your hands on.   

One of the best waterfront restaurants we had, in my opinion was Hornblowers.... I used to perform aquarium maintenance there for years. To my knowledge the place sat empty for a long time...  I wonder why, if such a scene is so desirable for such an establishment, that no one seemed to grab that spot. It was really classy.

Hornblowers is in a difficult location. Not easy to walk to, nowhere close by to park for free.  Combine that with the horrible food they used to have, and the view just wasn't worth the effort.

We must be looking at things from two different perspectives. The food was not horrible when it first opened... or at least when I was there. There was free parking.. I know this because I had to go there every week to do the services. I was never charged. Maybe they started to, or stopped, though. It amazes me how some people here seem to think what are really not long walks.... are long. In the interest of health, we should to do more walking anyway. That way, you'll have a better appetite when you dine. One of the owners used to own the Pufferbelley in Kent. They wanted to sell, apparently and never did. The view was actually a nice one of downtown and great sunsets could be seen from the deck. Also, that was a floating barge and could have been moved.

Dude, *I* certainly don't have any problem walking.  I have walked up to Juniper Grill and out to Slyman's for lunch from KeyTower, and that is no short trip, but I would never be able to get any co-workers to walk that far.  Most women I know drive to work and do not bring walking shoes, and walking more than a couple of blocks in dress shoes is just uncomfortable, plus you can stink up your nice work clothes if you get to sweating from walking when it's hot, so they just don't do it.  Hornblowers would be way too far for most business women to walk to.

The food (and service) at Hornblowers at the end of its business life was fairly dreadful. When it comes to walking, it's not so much that it's far to walk there (although it is if you only have an hour for lunch), but that the walk is not particularly enticing.

 

One of the reasons that there are not more waterfront restaurants in the Cleveland area is that the shoreline is mainly used for parks, industry, or residential uses.  As the Port of Cleveland vacates its current location, there will be more space for retail.

^^ That's why I have a solution possibly coming to town....  :-D

 

I am not talking about you personally, or the "working crowd" only... walking there. I was speaking of anyone and everyone...and from the Rock Hall, Science Center, Cod, Airport, overflow from games...etc....or even the north end of 9th it is not that far from gaining plenty of foot traffic. Not willing to do it has something to say about habit/lifestyle of that particular individual, because I have witnessed many women, specifically, in other cities that get warmer than Cleveland do loads of walking--and when I happened to be close enough on the train, they didn't seem to stink. Again, it was a barge and could have been moved to another location, so I am just surprised that no one grabbed it.

Different cities, different cultures.  I don't disagree that it's a problem and is one of many things adding to the obesity epidemic, but I know my department would never walk that far for lunch.  One girl always wears dress shoes that would not be suitable for walking that far, another girl is so heavy she would not be able to walk that far, or it would take a very, very long time and we don't have that kind of time at lunch.  Even if we were all fit and wearing tennis shoes, it would take 15 minutes to walk there and 15 to get back, that's half your lunch hour right there.  It's just not practical.  A place like that can't survive on expected tourist meals from the rock hall or science center unless they start catering to families with little kids (science center visitors).

^I agree, R&R.  Despite their many finer qualities, the average Clevelander most definitely seems (1) unwilling to walk very far and (2) unable or unwilling to believe parking is adequate unless it's a giant, free surface lot; at least compared to people in the other cities I've lived in.  It's why Shaker Square has a reputation for "being hard to find parking" and a reason the Landmark theater group closed their Centrum operation at Coventry (they reported that their customers were unwilling to walk from the municipal garage).  Both these factors probably made Hornblowers a tough sell.

If it were me I would be looking at the old buildings that still remain on the East Bank of the Flats on Old River Rd. There are definitely some workable spaces down there with great waterfront deck opportunities... the old Watermark space comes to mind. And if you're thinking about doing something in 3+ years then the Ernst and Young building should be up and running right around then possibly providing you with some lunch patrons.

 

Old Watermark location: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=cleveland,+oh&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=33.435463,56.337891&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cleveland,+Cuyahoga,+Ohio&ll=41.498596,-81.703359&spn=0.000922,0.002736&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=41.498652,-81.703449&panoid=cM0xtFJ-OWtbrDC4zf7M5A&cbp=12,269.78,,0,-12.03

 

It'd be nice to see some waterfront apartments on Old River Rd as well, but that's another story.

 

As a side note I saw some people working on the deck of another building down there this morning. The one closest to Settler's Landing Park. Something may be going in there relatively soon.

 

This building: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=cleveland,+oh&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=33.435463,56.337891&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cleveland,+Cuyahoga,+Ohio&ll=41.497889,-81.702189&spn=0.000922,0.002736&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=41.497934,-81.702287&panoid=O4LLFMaE7kQHp1i_kuRe1Q&cbp=12,252.94,,0,-4.71

In their defense, when I lived in LA you could find free parking for EVERYTHING unless you were in downtown proper, and that's why people didn't go downtown unless you worked there.  It's really the same thing here.  Why pay to park at a mall or restaurant when you can go to another one and not have to pay?  They should have free parking everywhere downtown on the weekends.  JMO.

For those who maybe never went there, Hornblower's was on the north side of Marginal Road between E 9th and Burke.

 

One spot that is unfortunately private is Shoreby in Bratenahl, but I think you can still make reservations.  The restaraunt is OK, but what I really like is the bar they have on the cliff overlooking the harbor (separate structure from the club).  It is shaped in a circle and has windows all around it.  Offers really nice elevated views of the lake and downtown.

Wow.......maybe its time they start doing some walking. Just because someone is too fat to walk wouldn't be my determining factor as to whether that place would be viable. It really depends on where one works downtown. I wouldn't expect someone working at Jacob's Field to walk there on lunch. These are a few people who wouldn't chose to go there...and that's ok. But there are many others who could/would... and we're not just speaking of the lunchtime work crowd utilizing such a place--although I know that is where a lot of income comes in for many establishments.

 

Again, there was a lot within proximity to that place to make it work. What other point of access to the water would they walk to if it was not there. It seems that Flats, and this area are equally a walk..and they'd have to walk down that big slope in the flats.  If one has an hour for lunch, as you indicate, one wouldn't likely chose this place. But if so many are unwilling to do that who work in the area of downtown that I am estimating you work, then I guess they will never be eating near the water, because you've got to do a little walking to get there, unless you are right near it.

 

Hornblowers catered to family too. It used to have class and was clean. Mayor White frequented it a lot. What it became is another story...But I do know that when I was doing work for them, the original chef quit. I actually miss some of the more traditional restaurants. Top Of The Town was one I really miss.

By catering to family, I mean a Chuck E Cheese atmosphere, or at least a Red Robin, not just having a kids menu.  If you want to draw families in, that's what you'd need to do.

 

Someone being too fat to walk there IS a determining factor as to where our department will go if we are all going out for lunch.  Whether or not this person should get some exercise or not is her personal issue, but we can't just say well, we're going here, too bad you can't make it, see ya!

By catering to family, I mean a Chuck E Cheese atmosphere, or at least a Red Robin, not just having a kids menu.  If you want to draw families in, that's what you'd need to do.

 

Someone being too fat to walk there IS a determining factor as to where our department will go if we are all going out for lunch.  Whether or not this person should get some exercise or not is her personal issue, but we can't just say well, we're going here, too bad you can't make it, see ya!

 

Cannot say.. Personally, I wouldn't feed my kids Chuck E Cheese. Why would a place have to have all toots and whistles to be appealing to kids or suitable for kids or attract families? Is that carved in stone?

 

"Your" department wouldn't be the be all end all of whether a place makes or breaks. Sorry, maybe that would be a determining factor for some in your situation, but you cannot speak as though your situation of having to make it easy for someone overweight, is the argument that represents the entire downtown population. Speak for themselves because I know plenty who would go to such a place and plenty who have..at least when it was a good place.

 

Instead of promoting healthier lifestyles, we too often accommodate the unhealthy ones. Just bass ackwards in my opinion.

when I lived in LA you could find free parking for EVERYTHING unless you were in downtown proper

 

Or the Sunset Strip.  My understanding is that only residents can park on the streets around the strip and every lot charged some ridiculous fee.

well, "fat people who don't like to walk" aside.  I think the reason a place like hornbolowers failed was pretty simple.  It was off the beaten path, all by itself, and frankly not very good.  The ONLY thing it had going for it was that it was on the water.  If you are going to be that isolated, you better give people a good reason to go there... particuarly during lunch hours when time is of the essence.

 

I agree that it wasn't that far away.  But it FELT like it was in siberia.

I would come if it  were close to home, and the quality of the product were good and it was not comically over priced. Water alone will not make success. I cannot even think of the name of the place down at the powerhouse. It has been several things..most recently Cyrus. The management changed every week and the food was usually bad. The service too, and the beer was skunky. The first manager was pretty good and we got a couple good meals out of them, but then it went downhill.

 

Shooters is way over priced for the product. Nevertheless it is edible bar food and drink and the views are great. This is not at all helpful, but my biggest issue with shooters is the cheesy clientele. There is nothing you can do about that though as huge beach or river bars will always draw those folks in. I used to live 2 blocks from the Shooters in Ft Myers and the crowd must have been cloned.

 

I love Pier W for happy hour from time to time and wish they had a patio. Sunset grill is my favorite of those mentioned. It is fairly priced, pleasant clientele, and fun atmosphere. Someone on the forum said they were possibly getting new owners. I wonder if Cleveland would support a year round place on the water. This is just my observation as a non mid westerner who has lived on or near a coastal area...but midwesterners don't seem to need or appreciate the sea or water as much as people from the coasts. 

 

Frankly I sometimes feel like I am suffocating living so far away from the ocean. I have explained that to people and they just look at me blankly (unless of course they are transplanted from a sea loving place).  I hope you are able to do something. The more people that get out an enjoy the water, the more likely they are to want to support the health of it.

 

Didn't sound like it was anything concrete, but didn't the news about the relocated skate park mention that a possible replacement at North Coast Harbor was a food/drink establishment?

 

I'd also think a limited hours waterfront establishment near Heart Crane Park would be nice if the rowing association facility can be built there.

 

Putting aside the licensing/permitting issues, which are probably significant, there should really be some more pop-up summertime outdoor and waterfront drinking places in town.  The overhead for a refrigerated tap and some decent outdoor furniture is not so steep.  Would be a nice Great Lakes Brewing marketing move to set up a pop-up beer garden at North Coast Harbor, for example.

when I lived in LA you could find free parking for EVERYTHING unless you were in downtown proper

Or the Sunset Strip. My understanding is that only residents can park on the streets around the strip and every lot charged some ridiculous fee.

 

 

Not true.  Plenty of places to park on the strip, depending on where you're going.  Most of the smaller strip malls or restaurants had lots you could park in that were behind the building. 

"Your" department wouldn't be the be all end all of whether a place makes or breaks. Sorry, maybe that would be a determining factor for some in your situation, but you cannot speak as though your situation of having to make it easy for someone overweight, is the argument that represents the entire downtown population.

 

I know you disagree, but the facts are the facts.  I'm not just speaking for my one department at my one company.  I have held over 30 jobs from small, two person companies to huge corporations with offices all over the globe.  I have worked in education, professional services, publishing, finance, all sorts of professional offices and the department I am in now and the co-workers I have are no different than any of the other offices I have worked in.  Women in Cleveland working in office jobs are not going to walk 10 blocks to go to lunch.  Fat or thin, whether it's lazy or not, it doesn't matter.  I know very few professionally dressed lawyers at my firm who would walk that far for lunch.  Walking that far for lunch is not appealing, from a time perspective, from a clothing/stink perspective and from a distance perspective.  Liking it or not liking it is irrelevant.  Whether or not it's healthy or not or whether or not it's really "far," however you could define that, is not relevant.  You have to open a restaurant for the market you are in (see Michael Symon B Spot), not the one you'd like it to be - the people at Octane Cafe could tell you all about how much healthy, fresh food they sold, except oh yeah, they closed.

I would make a distinction between locating a restaurant on the Cuyahoga (The Flats) vs. Lake Erie.  There is a reason that very few restaurants are located on the Lake Erie shoreline all across Ohio.  We have the only unobstructed northern shoreline in the US.  Even Buffalo and Toledo are inland along a river.  I cannot overstate the impact of a northern shoreline.  People talk about Seattle, San Fransisco, Baltimore, (Inner Harbor), etc.  They are all located in inlets or straits.  Chicago has an eastern shoreline.  When the winter winds come blowing, in Chicago, they are not coming across the water.

 

I never fully understood the impact a northern shoreline has until I bought a cottage on the shore of Lake Erie.  I love it, it is beautiful, but Nature is extremely powerful and unpredictable. Winds kick up at the most unpredictable times with a power that most people would not understand!!  An unobstructed 25 mph wind is devastating to tables, chairs, table clothes, food, etc., while further inland (1/4 mile) it is barely noticeable. During the summer months, this results in an extreme inconvenience when dinning, oftentimes resulting in the restaurateur have to pay the check for the patrons.  In the late Fall, Winter, and early Spring, it creates a very unpleasant environment which discourages patrons. 

 

There is a reason that very few people can maintain a successful restaurant on Lake Erie. However, having said that, we have successful places in the Flats that have been around for years.  I think the Harbor Inn has been in continuous operation for over 100 years!  But Hornblowers could not survive, nor have many other places along Lake Erie from Toledo to Buffalo. 

 

Captain Franks seemed to be very successful for years on the E.9th st pier.

Totally agree.  Everyone says that one key element that is missing on NCH.

Captain Franks seemed to be very successful for years on the E.9th st pier.

 

Those were years when Cleveland didn't have* a nationally recognized culinary scene like it does today and when places like Tremont weren't even on the map. And look at where those recognized places are - clustered together in walkable neighborhoods/strips where people can bar-hop and they're away from the harsh winds along the Lake shore. That's no accident; as TMH said - there's little to no buffer from the harsh winds that whip across the Lake - so a place with so-so food offerings, isolated from other spots, is it any wonder Hornblowers didn't last? Add to that a region with a stagnant population and as much as we would wish otherwise, there can only be so many successful hotspots.

 

I think a year or so ago, they measured 70mph winds that did substantial damage to the highrises along Lakeside - and this was in the SPRING; imagine how hospitable that is to pedestrians during the middle of winter.

 

*It's the same discussion of "well back in the day, Cleveland had a bunch of stores downtown" - yeah, that was before widespread urban sprawl, downtown reinvestment, etc. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

^I think those 70 mph winds tore a roof off one of the ports buildings.  I remember seeing that last year and being pretty amazed.  It basically peeled the roof about halfway back the length of the building like it was a sardine can. 

Frankly I sometimes feel like I am suffocating living so far away from the ocean. I have explained that to people and they just look at me blankly

 

I have to ask, what do you want them to do?  Apologize, smile sympathetically and say, "yes it must be awful for you sometimes, living in this place that I also call home."  I mean, I'd probably stare blankly at you too.  What do you want?

I don't remember there being any outdoor seating at Hornblower's, but I only at there once or twice when I was much younger.  Oddly enough it was only on the occasion when out-of-town family was in to visit and we were downtown to sightsee...

The port is planning to develop the land between the stadium and NCH.  Is it garenteed, no, but it is something you can keep an eye on.  You could try to get in on the ground floor and negotiate a lease early.  Since there is little in the way of bars and restaurants nearby, or residents for that matter, getting a license should be relatively easy

^Likely the rents would be exorbanent as they usually are with new developments, so not the best situation for an newbee/independent bar or restaurateur, which is why you usually see chains in those types of developments. 

 

Im thinking that strip where the watermark is would be the best bet, although I believe those were bought up speculatively and will skyrocket as FEB nears completion.  (might be good to see if anything is available there now)

 

I think Hornblowers had an outdoor patio on the top if I remember right.  Also I think initially it was a good place with good food (kind of old school), but at some point really went downhill.   

^Yup.  There are a few personal photo albums on flikr with shots of Hornblowers (like this: http://farm1.static.flickr.com/51/187098021_b8a1927c2a.jpg)

 

"I love Pier W and shooters, and I can't figure out why more establishments haven’t followed their lead."

 

Before you invest any money in this concept you need to answer that question.  Others have been there before, for the price of a lunch you could probably find out from them (and maybe find an investor).  Also, you don't need to travel the country.  The best/classiest "waterfront" bar (sort of water front) I have ever seen anywhere in the U.S. was Sammy's in the Flats.  It really beat anything I have seen in all my business travels.  Find out why that failed, and how to fix avoid that and you will have a winner.  I would also talk to the owner of Captain Frank's.  As I remember, there was some serious talk about resurrecting that restaurant and you would want to know where those plans are before you begin anything. 

 

Frankly I sometimes feel like I am suffocating living so far away from the ocean. I have explained that to people and they just look at me blankly

 

I have to ask, what do you want them to do? Apologize, smile sympathetically and say, "yes it must be awful for you sometimes, living in this place that I also call home." I mean, I'd probably stare blankly at you too. What do you want?

wow. not sure how you got that from what I said since I was talking about people in the midwest seeming nonplussed by water..as in my comment: " midwesterners don't seem to need or appreciate the sea or water as much as people from the coasts".

So it is not about me. I am pointing this out to a person who wants to open a waterfront bar may be faced with possibility that mant Clevelanders are happy to hole up in basement bar and chuck darts. 

I would also talk to the owner of Captain Frank's.  As I remember, there was some serious talk about resurrecting that restaurant and you would want to know where those plans are before you begin anything. 

 

 

Captain Frank's was going to be resurrected in the ground floor of a building on the SW corner of St. Clair and West 3rd. They even put their sign on it until Bob Stark bought the building and renovated it -- then left when his dream and the economy died.

 

And BTW, one of the owners of the old Captain Frank's was Angelo "Big Ange" Lonardo who was later the boss of the Cleveland Mafia. Some speculated that it was named for Angelo's brother Frank who was a capo or captain in the local mob. Big Ange died in 2006 at the age of 95.

 

I never fully understood the impact a northern shoreline has until I bought a cottage on the shore of Lake Erie.  I love it, it is beautiful, but Nature is extremely powerful and unpredictable. Winds kick up at the most unpredictable times with a power that most people would not understand!! 

 

 

I do, as I live just three blocks from the lake on a fifth floor condo. During the winter, I have to flip the patio table on my balcony upside down and "spear" the plastic patio chairs onto the table's legs to keep them all from blowing away. Even southern winds are strong because they accelerate as they approach the shore. Several weeks ago when we had our first warm day, I opened all the windows in my condo and had a cat fur blizzard going on! Several lamps also blew over, papers flew and a pillow was even blown off a sofa.

 

So keep all that in mind when opening a lakefront spot -- have some pine trees, solid fences and other windbreaks. And remember that the railings along the walkways in front of the federal building on East 9th aren't just for decoration. They serve a purpose!