April 21, 20169 yr I give up. I'm not suggesting a grand conspiracy. The Dennison owner initially wanted something like $2 million for it, which was way overpriced. Then it was finally sold to 3CDC with, from what I understand, the plan to establish a "wet house" -- meaning a residence for substance abusers wherein they're permitted to indulge, but with supervision. However in the end, financing didn't come through for the plan. Then it was sold to the politically well-connected Joseph family who have already demolished any buildings on the block they've purchased. Why is it a stretch to think some strings were pulled on behalf of the Josephs to purchase it for a much lower price than 3CDC paid?
April 21, 20169 yr http://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinion/editorials/2016/04/21/time-let-dennison-hotel-go/83337332/ Another example of why I can't stand the enquirer. The first sentence supports historical conservation. Then goes on to say for the better of development we should tear it down. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
April 21, 20169 yr The Josephs are about the only remaining advertiser in The Enquirer. Is it any wonder the paper doesn't want to bite the hand that feeds it? Plus, it's ironic that Eric Lusain wrote an opinion piece published today that advocates demolition, ironic because his buildings next door to The Dennison were similarly blighted yet he managed to rehab them into high-rent apartments. I wonder if the Josephs made him an offer?
April 21, 20169 yr While I disagree with a lot of aspects of the editorial (i.e. that an office tower will be built on the site). I do not have a problem with tearing the building down. It is going to be a very hard redevelopment project, and while I don't see an office building on that footprint, I could see a condo tower development in conjunction with something on the existing parking lot now. I just think that the building is going to continue to sit and rot for another 10 years because of a lack of a viable plan to use it, and at the end of the day, it is going to meet the fete of the wrecking ball when all is said and done.
April 21, 20169 yr While I disagree with a lot of aspects of the editorial (i.e. that an office tower will be built on the site). I do not have a problem with tearing the building down. It is going to be a very hard redevelopment project, and while I don't see an office building on that footprint, I could see a condo tower development in conjunction with something on the existing parking lot now. I just think that the building is going to continue to sit and rot for another 10 years because of a lack of a viable plan to use it, and at the end of the day, it is going to meet the fete of the wrecking ball when all is said and done. What makes it more impossible to redevelop now than when the plan was put together by the Talbert House. I'm really skeptical of people who just flat out say its impossible, when I have with my own 2 eyes seen far more damaged buildings get redeveloped (just not so much in Cincinnnati). Not only that but both the urban conservator and the preservation organizations have analyses that show it could be.
April 21, 20169 yr I am not saying it cant be done, I guess with the development of the condo tower on the other side of the street, I think a similar project would work well here too. As far as redevelopment, of course it can be done, but it has to be economically profitable for the developer. I don't see that yet and the more time that goes by the more expensive it becomes and the property deteriorates more. I think ultimately, the only way to get something dnoe in the near future is to have public money but I don't think that is the best use of taxpayer dollars for this building It is just not a signature enough building to warrant that.
April 21, 20169 yr As far as redevelopment, of course it can be done, but it has to be economically profitable for the developer. I don't see that yet and the more time that goes by the more expensive it becomes and the property deteriorates more. Rents are approaching Chicago prices for Downtown and OTR. I think a lot of analyses aren't taking that into consideration, there is a tremendous housing shortage and market conditions the likes of which most Cincinnatians haven't seen in their hometown during their lifetime. I know the default reaction for a Cincinnatian is bah humbug, but maybe you should look a little closer at what's really happening in front of your nose right now? Also keep in mind these are loft spaces and a premium can be charged for said space by virtue of it being a loft. Look at the rents in larger cities where more lofts have been restored and they are almost always more expensive than normal apartment/condo buildings. If the market can support new construction condo towers like what's being proposed across the street, than I'm pretty sure it can support rehabs of large buildings too. Class A Office buildings are so off the mark its almost a comical parody of being out of touch (though I think we are both in agreement there ;) ).
April 21, 20169 yr For a reference point, the condos across the street will be priced at $500/square foot. That's the highest cost per square foot ever for a large building in Cincinnati. And by a large margin. And they'll likely get it due to extreme demand. If this building was developed into condos at that price point that would be a sell out of $27,000,000. Even if they went with something much more achievable and went with $300/square foot that's a sellout of $16,200,000. In order to just break even on the estimate of a $7,900,000 redevelopment cost that would be less than $150/square foot which is exceptionally low.
April 21, 20169 yr ^-That's above the average price per ft sq of a space in the Chicago Loop: http://www.chicagobusiness.com/realestate/20150827/CRED0701/150829882/loop-leads-downtown-condo-comeback Overall, downtown condos sold for an average of $406 per square foot in the first half of the year This was early 2015.
April 21, 20169 yr Quite frankly, I think the Joseph Auto Group is stunned by all the "Save the Dennison" t-shirts, Facebook group, and preservationists planning to show up at the hearing. They are trying to buy time by delaying the hearing and having the Enquirer's editorial board publish this pro-demolition editorial.
April 22, 20169 yr For a reference point, the condos across the street will be priced at $500/square foot. That's the highest cost per square foot ever for a large building in Cincinnati. And by a large margin. And they'll likely get it due to extreme demand. If this building was developed into condos at that price point that would be a sell out of $27,000,000. Even if they went with something much more achievable and went with $300/square foot that's a sellout of $16,200,000. In order to just break even on the estimate of a $7,900,000 redevelopment cost that would be less than $150/square foot which is exceptionally low. THIS!!!!! I am sick an tired of the poor-mouth cop outs. We can't afford it, or it's not economically possible It's all a bunch of BS. They bought the building KNOWING it had historic restrictions. So deal with it. Be a good citizen. They have plenty of money to do this, and the remainder of their land there is plenty big enough to support their fantasy office building WHAT A JOKE this whole situation is.
April 22, 20169 yr Quite frankly, I think the Joseph Auto Group is stunned by all the "Save the Dennison" t-shirts, Facebook group, and preservationists planning to show up at the hearing. They are trying to buy time by delaying the hearing and having the Enquirer's editorial board publish this pro-demolition editorial. Well Western-Southern snuck through the demo of those row houses on Arch St. that were in a historic district when nobody was looking. So I think they thought this was going to be pretty uneventful.
April 22, 20169 yr They actually created the historic district back in the 50s with a sunset then didn't extend the sunset, it was pretty disgusting.
April 24, 20169 yr Quite frankly, I think the Joseph Auto Group is stunned by all the "Save the Dennison" t-shirts, Facebook group, and preservationists planning to show up at the hearing. They are trying to buy time by delaying the hearing and having the Enquirer's editorial board publish this pro-demolition editorial. Well Western-Southern snuck through the demo of those row houses on Arch St. that were in a historic district when nobody was looking. So I think they thought this was going to be pretty uneventful. Yeah, but we all saw that coming for a long time. It became obvious when they re-drew the historic district boundaries and excluded those houses from the new district. The difference here is that the Dennison is still inside a historic district.
April 24, 20169 yr Wow, blatant pandering by the Enquirer editorial board! They make it sound like the Joseph's idea to relocate a Fortune 500 tenant is brand new. Those type relocations come around about once every two decades, and they have been sitting on that vacant land for a lot longer than that. Editorial: It’s time to let the Dennison go Enquirer editorial board 3:46 p.m. EDT April 21, 2016 Cincinnati has earned a national attention by capitalizing on its historic architecture to create a sense of place and a downtown that is the envy of many Midwestern cities. Commercial and residential builders have leveraged a tremendous new interest in urban living. The 15-year renaissance of Over-the-Rhine in particular has happened because of reasonable and business-savvy deliberations centered on preservation and rehabilitation, weighing the past with future growth opportunities. The result: One of the nation’s largest intact historic districts has blossomed into a thriving neighborhood. http://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinion/editorials/2016/04/21/time-let-dennison-hotel-go/83337332/
April 26, 20169 yr From the inimitable P. Casey Coston- Demolishing the Dennison would be unconscionable http://www.soapboxmedia.com/features/042616-soapdish-dennison-teardown-unconscionable.aspx
April 27, 20169 yr Wow! He slayed that column! Awesome! And then there was that weird op ed by Jay Gilbert. I can't tell if it was serious or a lampoon. Apparently 92.5 gets a big chunk of their ad revenue from that family as well. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
April 27, 20169 yr John is correct. I spoke with Pat (a former longtime Enquirer reporter) on Monday night. In response to my question, he indicated that he was retained in the past two weeks or so. He didn't have much to say. And he wouldn't put it in an email.
April 27, 20169 yr Pat called me a few weeks ago and asked me what I thought. I told him the Dennison ought to be saved - said this was a different set of facts compared to the Donato's building.
April 28, 20169 yr This is what the inside of the Dennison looks like today: PHOTOS Apr 28, 2016, 2:04pm EDT Chris Wetterich Staff reporter and columnist Cincinnati Business Courier Both opponents and supporters of the demolition of the former Dennison Hotel on Main Street say the building’s current interior condition bolsters the case for the fate they’d like for the building. The owner of the building, Columbia REI LLC, the development subsidiary of the Joseph Auto Group, wants to demolish the building. Its lawyer, Fran Barrett, said assertions by the staff of Cincinnati’s Historic Conservation Board that the building is in “good” condition would get a real estate agent in hot water if they made the same claim. http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2016/04/28/this-is-what-the-inside-of-the-dennison-looks-like.html
April 28, 20169 yr Looks good to me. Now fix it! Agreed. And if they're too squeamish to do it themselves, I'm sure they could sell it for more than the $600k they bought it for!
April 28, 20169 yr Everyone knows the thing needs to be gutted and completely rehabbed. The accusation made in the article that it doesn't look "good" insinuates that people are advertising this building as being in rentable condition, which nobody has claimed.
April 28, 20169 yr ^-I've seen way worse get restored too. This just needs to be cleaned up, upgraded and rehabbed, NOT torn down.
April 29, 20169 yr That looks like the 21c prior to its renovation. The only negative I see is that the Dennison is much smaller than the 21c so it isn't as much of a slam dunk from a future earnings standpoint. It seems to be in a no-mans land of too small for the big boys to bother with it and too big for the little guys to get financing for it. No matter what, it does need to be preserved. The 1987 Enquirer article needs to be referenced in the media as much as possible just to show the Joseph family is full of it.
April 29, 20169 yr Dennison is really that much smaller than 21c? any idea what the actual square footage of each is?
April 29, 20169 yr Dennison is really that much smaller than 21c? any idea what the actual square footage of each is? Off the top of my head, the 21C has 144 modern hotel rooms and the entire first and second floors are public spaces. All I know about the Dennison is that it has "105 Rooms & 60 Baths," so it is just an educated guess that it is most likely half the size of the 21c. No big company is going to bother with a 60-70 room hotel. It will most likely go the apartment route, which would require even more space per unit, which will end up being maybe 30 units? The two new construction Neyer apartments at 7th & 8th are each over 100 units and the Grand Baldwin will have +/- 200 units. What is the most amount of units a small company has renovated?6? 8? It needs to be preserved, but it is discouraging that 3CDC bailed on this building once since they would seem to be the natural choice to rehab it.
April 29, 20169 yr They did a development report and found 52 apartments could fit in the Dennison. The building is over 50,000 square feet. That's about the same number of units as either of the upcoming Greiwe towers across the street.
April 29, 20169 yr They bailed under pressure from a powerful local family. Also, at the time there was a real possibility of a fortune 500 company locating to Cincinnati, didn't happen but it was a rare time that it could have.
April 29, 20169 yr They did a development report and found 52 apartments could fit in the Dennison. The building is over 50,000 square feet. Thank you, unfortunately it is still a low number of units to be a slam dunk. Banks only lend to slam dunks. To be as clear as possible, this building needs to be preserved. I just have a sinking feeling that the odds are against it. Cranley's "let the free market decide" was a pretty good indication that no city money will be pumped into the building, which will almost be a necessity for the numbers to work.
April 29, 20169 yr They found that converting to 52 units would cost $7.9 million. That's $146/square foot. The Greiwe condos will be priced at $500/square foot. Getting $300/square foot is pretty standard.
April 29, 20169 yr 3CDC's chairman of the board is John Barrett, who is also Western and Southern's CEO. The Barrett's are long time friends of the Joseph's. I'm sure 3CDC was forced to sell to the Joseph's and that's why it was so quick. I think W&S has been looking for a new HQ tower and I wonder if this is the spot they are eying. Previously I thought it was the area near Lytle Park, but now I don't know. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
April 29, 20169 yr 3CDC's chairman of the board is John Barrett, who is also Western and Southern's CEO. The Barrett's are long time friends of the Joseph's. I'm sure 3CDC was forced to sell to the Joseph's and that's why it was so quick. I think W&S has been looking for a new HQ tower and I wonder if this is the spot they are eying. Previously I thought it was the area near Lytle Park, but now I don't know. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk There's plenty of room on that lot to build a signature tower if they want to.
April 29, 20169 yr The city-owned alleys (12') help make it clear that the Dennison should remain as a stand alone building. A tower could be build immediately to the south, while still maintaining enough space for the alley to allow for the windows to get enough light. Similar to the way these condos face the alley next to 600 Vine: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1025443,-84.5126471,3a,75y,26.11h,104.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEZF6C0J55eAkHPU3BpdanQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
April 29, 20169 yr Remember how Charlie Luken complained that we shouldn't allow SkyHouse to be built because it'll end up being "One Lytle Place Part II", and look how ugly One Lytle Place is? If we apply the same logic, shouldn't be prevent Columbia Auto Group from building a tower here because it'll just be Chiquita Center Part II? Luken?
April 29, 20169 yr The city-owned alleys (12') help make it clear that the Dennison should remain as a stand alone building. A tower could be build immediately to the south, while still maintaining enough space for the alley to allow for the windows to get enough light. Similar to the way these condos face the alley next to 600 Vine: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1025443,-84.5126471,3a,75y,26.11h,104.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEZF6C0J55eAkHPU3BpdanQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 what about the alley (currently paved over) that bisects the parking lot from 7th to 8th streets? Would a developer have to buy that or whatever to build a building on it?
April 29, 20169 yr The alleys are all still City owned. I imagine there's some long term lease/easement in place. The ideal site plan for the block would restore those alleyways, and I'd love to seem them aligned with Leslie Alley which runs south from 7th all the way to 5th (to the Joseph's owned building formerly known as the Chiquita Center!).
April 29, 20169 yr You guys should make a 2 minute presentation of your points and present to HCB 5/26
April 29, 20169 yr BallHatGuy[/member] - what blog post is that? I used to write the Queen City Survey blog. I had done a series on wanting to erect a statue to Rutherford B. Hayes in Cincinnati. That block was one location option. http://queencitysurvey.blogspot.com/2007/12/raise-rutherford_05.html
May 3, 20169 yr To help the Joseph family with their noble quest to attract a Fortune 500 company to Cincinnati, I put together a map showing all of the surface parking lots and low-lying garages. As long as we continue to have these surface lots, nobody can credibly argue that Cincinnati needs more "tower ready" parking lots to be able to attract a new Fortune 500 company to town. https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1016333,-84.5101726,16z/data=!4m2!6m1!1szFIqGGosv7MI.k3WGgTLANKH4
May 3, 20169 yr On another note, which of these would fit an FCC stadium? (sorry not an FCC thread - feel free to post response using this map in FCC forum)
May 3, 20169 yr On another note, which of these would fit an FCC stadium? (sorry not an FCC thread - feel free to post response using this map in FCC forum) Tear down Music Hall. Now!
May 13, 20169 yr Very exciting: http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2016/05/13/exclusive-potential-buyer-for-the-former-dennison.html?ana=twt Really can't imagine how the HCB could issue permits for demolition when potential buyers want it (without the owners even marketing it!). Or maybe the Josephs wanted to sell it all along and this was just an elaborate marketing scheme to get a bunch of media attention and pull in an outside developer. The Josephs (and Fran Barrett) don't seem sophisticated enough to pull off a scheme like that, so I'm just going to chalk this up to dumb incompetence that fortunately seems to be leading to best possible situation: the building should be sold to a competent developer.
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