March 10, 20169 yr How would people feel if something like we are seeing proposed where donatos is be proposed at this site? joetraveler[/member] - what proposal at the Donato's site are you talking about? Are you just asking how people would feel about demolishing that building?
March 10, 20169 yr I think he's referring to this: https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10208731496070800&set=a.2101418741083.126123.1413893513&type=3&theater
March 10, 20169 yr Oh - I see. Very exciting. There's a new thread for the 8th & Main proposal: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,30599.0.html
March 10, 20169 yr Just curious as the floor height was cited as in issue making the donatos building not lending itself for rehab. I'd have to assume that something built as a SRO hotel would have a pretty short height as well but I'd be happy to be told otherwise.
March 10, 20169 yr It wasn't built as a SRO Hotel. It was a warehouse. The ceiling heights are actually quite high. This was evident in the Ironworks Lofts proposal from a few years back that fell through. You can also see how much taller each floor is compared to the neighboring building. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FLFs3lWszTI/VUwMYxGuoeI/AAAAAAAAGKU/o8k-mG0lhbg/s1600/Dennison-rendering-580.jpg
March 10, 20169 yr How would people feel if something like we are seeing proposed where donatos is be proposed at this site? If you read through the reasons why the Donato's site could not be repurposed, including the very convincing letter from John Schneider (pages 201-202), then it makes sense why demolition of that building makes sense. But I don't think any of those issues (low floor-to-floor heights, narrow spacing of columns) would apply to the Dennison.
March 10, 20169 yr Honestly, the Donatos building could likely be saved, but I would rather see this new building be built. It wouldn't be the most profitable, but I bet you could turn a profit. The Dennison is on another level than the Donatos building in terms of importance IMO
March 10, 20169 yr Glad to hear it, what year was the ironworks lofts proposed as I don't any recollection of that one.
March 10, 20169 yr 2011 or 2012? Something like that. The finances just didn't work out and it changed hands a few times in a short period.
March 10, 20169 yr Still hard to believe that 3CDC once owned the Dennison and then sold it. If they still owned it, I can't imagine that we'd even be thinking about a potential demolition.
March 10, 20169 yr Here's an article from 2011 about the 3CDC / Model Group proposal for the "Ironworks" apartments. http://www.soapboxmedia.com/devnews/0301dennisonhotelbecomesironworks.aspx A bit of detail on the building: Built in 1890, the building was originally an ironworks for a carriage maker. It was later converted to a hotel with 114 single resident units and common baths and kitchens (a faded sign painted on the upper quarter of the hotel still advertises "105 rooms, 60 baths.") Maly said there hasn't been a physical renovation of the space in decades, other than bricking up the original two over two windows.
March 10, 20169 yr The Josephs, who own the Dennison, have torn down everything else they've bought on that block. Didn't they lease their land, which way back when used to be one of their car dealerships at the NW corner of 5th & Sycamore streets, to the developer of that hi-rise office building when it was built? I wonder if they're hoping to do the same thing on the block where the Dennison and their huge surface parking lot are? It seems like they're not really real estate developers themselves, but I'm not sure. They've probably been hoping for a repeat of the 5th & Sycamore deal as they've continued to buy properties on the Dennison's block, but times have changed and who knows when, or even if, any spec office building would be built there? A photo/rendering of a proposed office building on the site floated around when GE was still searching for a site, but I don't know who produced it. I wonder if the Josephs are simply resisting residential development or anything short of a big hi-rise office building? Not changing their usual MO by wanting to tear down the Dennison makes me suspect that could be the case.
March 10, 20169 yr Yes I believe the owners of the Chiquita Center (whatever it is called now) do not own the land it stands on. This is a very common situation in New York City, Boston, etc., where alternately churches (or other non-profit institutions) or old money families collect revenue from the land upon which large developments have been built. Tearing down the Dennison gives any new property much more frontage on Main. It totally changes what can be built on that corner.
March 15, 20169 yr A little more info: UrbanCincy: Owners of Historic Dennison Hotel Ask City Hall for Demolition Permission
March 15, 20169 yr Edit: Apologies but somehow I posted on the wrong thread. Was going to say on this one, I really hope there is some outcry in regards to having this building demolished. The price tags don't look horrible for redevelopment anyways.
March 15, 20169 yr It has to be approved be the Historic Board right? I just don't understand how they will approve the demolition considering it's part of a historic district, and especially if there is no future plans and will just be used for a parking lot. The building is not on the verge of collapse. The demolition of The Dennison would be nothing more for but for pure greed, and if I was apart of the commission board this would be such an easy no for me.
March 16, 20169 yr Cranley has appointed people like Shree Kulkarni, a suburban developer who builds stuff like the buildings below, to the board. Do you think he cares about the Dennison Hotel?
April 5, 20169 yr Anyone have any news on the status of the Dennison? Who's the best person to contact to voice opposition to demolition? I don't see any real contact info for the HCB on the City's website (http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/buildings/historic-conservation/historic-conservation-board/), but I'm not able to attend meetings in person.
April 5, 20169 yr April 18 is the hearing date. http://www.soapboxmedia.com/features/032916-casey-new-column.aspx
April 7, 20169 yr Here's the link, by the way https://www.change.org/p/beth-johnson-urban-conservator-prevent-the-proposed-demolition-of-the-dennison-hotel
April 11, 20169 yr Dennison Hotel owner's vision: A Fortune 500 HQ building Apr 11, 2016, 3:26pm EDT Tom Demeropolis Senior Staff Reporter Cincinnati Business Courier The owner of the former Dennison Hotel in downtown Cincinnati has much bigger plans for property at Seventh and Main streets. The current owner of the building, the Joseph family’s Columbia REI LLC, is scheduled to go before the Historic Conservation Board on April 18, asking for a certificate of appropriateness to demolish the vacant building at 716 Main St. Fran Barrett, an attorney representing the Joseph family, said demolition of the building is necessary for the type of development the Josephs are planning for the block bounded by Main, Seventh, Sycamore and Eighth streets. http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2016/04/11/dennison-hotel-owners-vision-a-fortune-500-hq.html
April 11, 20169 yr Gee, proposing to demolish historic buildings, just in case a potential scenario plays out, has always worked well in the past....
April 11, 20169 yr While I agree with the Joseph position, and may be in the minority on this, I don't see what they want as a viable option. 1) Pretty much new office development in the CBD is focused toward the river now and would likely be on 3rd or 4th street. Western Southern seems to have the market corenerd on this. 2) I don't like the low/mid rise building, they would want to build a signature building. I don't really see large scale office working on this site. Maybe mixed use office residential or something like a dumhummby type building 3) Most of the businesses that block and up are more legal related and geared toward the courthouse and serving that district of town.
April 11, 20169 yr http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2016/04/11/dennison-hotel-owners-vision-a-fortune-500-hq.html They have no actual plan, no actual design, no actual tenant... and they have 63,000 sq ft of surface parking. The Dennison has a footprint of only 6,000 sq ft which is less than 10% of their total site. If they want to build towers on their parking lots, then great. But until they do that, there's really no way they can argue that the Dennison is holding them back from development. If the HCB was able to save the Davis building from a developer with no plan, then they better be able to save the much more historically significant Dennison from a developer with no plan. Here are some of the towers downtown and their footprints just to get a sense of how huge 63,000 sq ft is: GE Global Ops - 35,000 sq ft Fifth Third - 22,500 sq ft Kroger - 40,000 sq ft (former) Chiquita building - 37,000 sq ft
April 11, 20169 yr http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2016/04/11/dennison-hotel-owners-vision-a-fortune-500-hq.html They have no actual plan, no actual design, no actual tenant... and they have 63,000 sq ft of surface parking. The Dennison has a footprint of only 6,000 sq ft which is less than 10% of their total site. If they want to build towers on their parking lots, then great. But until they do that, there's really no way they can argue that the Dennison is holding them back from development. If the HCB was able to save the Davis building from a developer with no plan, then they better be able to save the much more historically significant Dennison from a developer with no plan. Here are some of the towers downtown and their footprints just to get a sense of how huge 63,000 sq ft is: GE Global Ops - 35,000 sq ft Fifth Third - 22,500 sq ft Kroger - 40,000 sq ft (former) Chiquita building - 37,000 sq ft I agree with this 100% and was literally just on google earth looking at some size comparisons myself before I saw your post. They already have a huge site they can redevelop, and if their argument is that they want Main Street frontage, they already have it. They could build a lower height entry lobby building similar to what Queen City Square does to 4th street. This would allow them to claim Main Street as their address, and save the open air on the south face of Dennison to allow the windows along that facade to be opened up or even have balconies added for an apartment/condo conversion. The math of demolishing a historic building in a historic district just so an owner can have 10% more floor space for an imaginary building with no tenant or developer just doesn't add up.
April 11, 20169 yr Seems like the Joseph family likes helping the indigent as much as they like saving historic buildings: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6oH6Njv1Iq1OElLb1Uycno5RTQ/view (see page 17) ...as the Joseph family had become aware, 3CDC engaged The Model Group for the remodeling of this building into a facility to be owned, occupied, and used by the Talbert House, a halfway house providing housing for persons who have transitioned through the criminal justice system and incarceration. Since it was believed that this type of use would have a damaging effect on their investment in particular and on the neighborhood in general, the family concluded it was necessary to acquire this property. The Joseph family makes me sick.
April 12, 20169 yr Everything here reads like it was written 50 years ago they even cite a 50s era urban renewal plan, what decade do they think they live in!? Besides there is already a glut of class a space. This reaks of parochial good ol boy politics Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk 2
April 12, 20169 yr Saw this come up on the Facebook page, from the Cincinnati Enquirer, January 14, 1987. Seems follow-through on "plans" is not very good.
April 12, 20169 yr as a Talbert House employee back then, this is HIGHLY disingenuous. the Dennison redevelopment had nothing to do with the Court and Corrections wing. this would've been simply affordable housing with a case management option, and felons would have likely been blocked or restricted from approval. as a matter of comparison, when this fell through, TH moved on to 960 Grand Ave in Price Hill, a development that's been covered on here and would've benefited the area. Seems like the Joseph family likes helping the indigent as much as they like saving historic buildings: ...as the Joseph family had become aware, 3CDC engaged The Model Group for the remodeling of this building into a facility to be owned, occupied, and used by the Talbert House, a halfway house providing housing for persons who have transitioned through the criminal justice system and incarceration. Since it was believed that this type of use would have a damaging effect on their investment in particular and on the neighborhood in general, the family concluded it was necessary to acquire this property. The Joseph family makes me sick.
April 12, 20169 yr I do not see this site as fit for an office tower... would really love to see office tower investment up along Central Parkway (and the city/port to push for that but it does not seem to be on anyone's radar).
April 12, 20169 yr Here are some of the towers downtown and their footprints just to get a sense of how huge 63,000 sq ft is: GE Global Ops - 35,000 sq ft Fifth Third - 22,500 sq ft Kroger - 40,000 sq ft (former) Chiquita building - 37,000 sq ft Here are the floor plates of other popular buildings: 84 51: 70,000 Kenwood Collection: 32,000 Great American Tower: 26,000 The 70,000sf floor plate 84 51 building was not spec. Dunnhumby (now 84 51) got to select their site, make significant changes (eliminate a proposed apartment tower on the northern portion of the site) to nearly double the floor plate size, then build. This is a joke. Also, not a knock on PDT, but I've only seen them design suburban office buildings, so I really doubt they've done more than create a pretty picture.
April 12, 20169 yr Saw this come up on the Facebook page, from the Cincinnati Enquirer, January 14, 1987. Seems follow-through on "plans" is not very good. The last line of that article indicates that the facade of 700 Main was preserved and stored somewhere. Is that complete BS or is there a forgotten facade gathering dust somewhere?
April 12, 20169 yr Here is what will happen. The debate on this will go on for another 8 months. Then mysteriously, on a cold winter night, 3 squatters will break inside trying to stay warm next to a fire they created. The fire will get knocked over and rage out of control, destroying everything but the exterior shell. The front of the building will be saved for future development but the rest of the building will be a loss and the building will get torn down. Just sayin....
April 12, 20169 yr Here is what will happen. The debate on this will go on for another 8 months. Then mysteriously, on a cold winter night, 3 squatters will break inside trying to stay warm next to a fire they created. The fire will get knocked over and rage out of control, destroying everything but the exterior shell. The front of the building will be saved for future development but the rest of the building will be a loss and the building will get torn down. Just sayin.... Just like Smitty's.
April 12, 20169 yr There was a historic building in Charleston that developers wanted to re-develop. It has set vacant for years. In the late 80's there was a mysterious fire set by a few homeless guys that destroyed the building except for a façade. Needless to say, the side was redeveloped with the old façade still in place. The developer won but the cause of the fire remained a mystery.
April 12, 20169 yr When I lived in Knoxville, TN a bulldozer working on an adjacent property mysteriously struck and damaged beyond repair a historic building that a developer wanted down.
April 12, 20169 yr Seems like the Joseph family likes helping the indigent as much as they like saving historic buildings: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6oH6Njv1Iq1OElLb1Uycno5RTQ/view (see page 17) ...as the Joseph family had become aware, 3CDC engaged The Model Group for the remodeling of this building into a facility to be owned, occupied, and used by the Talbert House, a halfway house providing housing for persons who have transitioned through the criminal justice system and incarceration. Since it was believed that this type of use would have a damaging effect on their investment in particular and on the neighborhood in general, the family concluded it was necessary to acquire this property. The Joseph family makes me sick. I went to school with a bunch of Joseph's. They're about as stereotypical old money Cincinnati as you get. I really don't think they give a shit about historic preservation or principles of good urbanism. Some nice folks among them, but they're very much an aloof Indian Hill family.
April 12, 20169 yr Does anyone know if the Joseph family are campaign contributors of Mayor Cranley? All I could find is this, but I don't know if ALL of these Josephs are related to the Josephs in question: http://city-egov.cincinnati-oh.gov/Webtop/ws/election/public/mayor_contrib/ResultSet?upp=0&rpp=-10&w=NATIVE%28%27ctype_code+%3D+%27%27I%27%27+and+candidate_code+%3D+%27%27CRA%27%27+and+NAME+inc+%27%27joseph%27%27+and+election_year+%3D+2013%27%29&order=native%28%27contrib_amt%27%29 IF all of these people are part of THE Joseph family, their contributions add up to a tidy sum that's easily among the top ten of his 2013 campaign. Could the mayor's stance on the Dennison be a quid pro quo?
April 12, 20169 yr After the floods of 2008 in Cedar Rapids, there were a lot of damaged historic buildings. One of the buildings was on a plat that an owner held where 3 out of the 4 buildings had to be demolished because they were damaged beyond repair because of the flood. Historic Preservationists had won approval of not allowing it to be demolished from the board, and it was going to council on the final vote a week later. There was already offers to buy the building and rehab it. The day before council was going to deny demolition and select the developer to enter into a purchase contract with the owner, a mysterious fire broke out. I think people are still upset about that one because in a city where there isn't a lot of historic buildings and many of them that were there were destroyed in the flood, this building in particular stood out from the rest. It was a sad deal. This is where it sat on the corner, it was a beautiful building. I wish I could go further back on streetview here but only goes so far back here. I think now they have turned these all into new townhomes. Long story short, it seems this type of stuff happens everywhere. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9704738,-91.6599407,3a,75y,120.69h,80.89t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sCdr4a3AA_asDs9zX8N8JiQ!2e0!5s20120301T000000!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
April 12, 20169 yr Yep, happens all the time, and sometimes even more blatant. http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/work-stopped-after-wrong-part-of-dayton-daily-news/nbyGJ/
April 12, 20169 yr Guys, why give the Josephs ideas, IYKWIM. Yep, good point but maybe the more they know eyes are on them they will not go this path. Not that these groups play above board, but hopefully they stay on the right side of the law at least.
April 12, 20169 yr Ron Joseph lives right next door to Cranley. I wonder which side of this argument Cranley's cohorts on the historic board will take? I wouldn't be surprised if they cooked something up together over the fence while doing yardwork - or rather while watching their help do the yard work.
April 12, 20169 yr Do we know how many on the HCB are Cranley's people? How many votes does it take to stop a demolition?
April 12, 20169 yr Ron Joseph lives right next door to Cranley. I wonder which side of this argument Cranley's cohorts on the historic board will take? I wouldn't be surprised if they cooked something up together over the fence while doing yardwork - or rather while watching their help do the yard work. Cranley probably doesn't know how to start a mower.
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