Continued from the Cleveland Casino thread

 

there is below a 0% chance of moving into ameritrust.  Sorry, but it just wouldn't make any sense what so ever to move mmmmaaayyybeee 2 floors worth of employees into a 30 story building that doesn't even have a lobby.  And spending the money building out a completely new lobby for 1 - 2 floors worth of employees is crazy.  And why would the county even want such a thing.  If they build out a lobby for an office building, the space becomes immensly less desirable for a buyer who intends a different use, it would require even more money spent on the project.  And please don't get me started on the rotunda, using the rotunda to house both of these businesses would require significant alteration.  If the rotunda gets defiled for some "temporary" use I'll be a very unhappy clevelander.  And if it isn't temporary... again, you've just made the entire property less valuable and viable to develop as the rotunda would no longer be included.

 

There is tons of space around the city they could go, I doubt the ameritrust space even gets consideration.  I think its a nonstarter.

 

This is all just an idea, I don't want to start anything, but

 

Why would a visitor's center in a former bank lobby defile the building?

 

According to crains, the group currently uses 150,000 square feet of space in the Higbee building.  The Ameritrust tower has 15,000 square feet per floor.  I am not sure how much of that space is the visitors center, but if is 30,000 sq. ft. you would still need 8 floors to match its current size.  It may require more space due to the new set up.  Now the building is 1/3 full. 

 

If this happens (a huge if) some county offices may move there as well.

 

The Ameritrust Tower has its own lobby which was damaged during the asbestos removal.  It would have to be made safe, but it would not have to be lavishly or extensively redone. 

 

I think using the Trust rotunda as a visitors center would make a beautiful front door for the city.  It is located directly between the the two largest tourist destinations, North Coast Harbor and Gateway.

 

Now that Europe is going through a banking crisis, the credit markets are going to lock up even more.  Even if someone wanted the building for a project over the next two years, it will be difficult to get financing.

So the county will be stuck with it for a while.

 

 

There are dozens, maybe hundreds  of reasons why this would not work, it is just an idea.

But I would rather have the building have a use, even if it were only for a couple of years, rather than letting it sit and rot.

I didn't know that they took up so much space.  I thought it was just the visitor center.

First things first regarding the size... I read that too.  Not sure what to say other than they are wrong.  The Higbee building floor plates are roughly 80,000 s/f.  Positively Cleveland and the GCP both take up roughly half a floor, the back half of the building is empty.  meaning the two take up roughly 80,000 sf.  In Positively Clevelands case they have a use 30,000 sf for their welcome center with a rather large 10,000 sf to house their 34 employees (roughly 256 sf / employee).  GCP has a remarkable space upstairs which is used by a variety of groups.  They have 99 employees, which gives them a rather obscenely large 404 sf / employee.  Of course they have some mammoth beautiful conference rooms overlooking the square which are used by a variety of people and groups with different needs.  To contrast this, Key is taking up 3 floors and roughly 210k sf for 1,000 employees (roughly 210 sf / employee).  So this makes sense the US average of square feet / employee is 175-250 sf (sorry, I've been helping get offices built most of my life).  Which puts PC non show room space at the upper end, Key right in the middle, and GCP in some outrageous area that I've never seen before.  So it isn't 150k sf.  It's closer to 80k sf, and my guess is that the only reason they have so much is that FC required them to take half floors to make the deal work.

 

I'm also not sure where you go your numbers on the AT/Breuer Tower but I'd like to see them.  I could be completely wrong, but I had "thought" I read or heard somewhere that the AT Tower is a little over 1m sf.  At 28 stories that puts the floorplates at roughly 35k sf.  Granted I've heard the loss factor in this building is horrible due to the akward location of the elevators being that it was designed for a 2nd tower that never came... but again, I had "thought" that was taken into effect in the numbers I'm using.

 

As far as the rotunda goes... as someone pointed out in the casino thread, I'm not saying to bronze the rotunda and make it untouchable.  Hardly.  I'm all for progress and adaptive reuse.  I was quite excited at the possibility of the rotunda becoming a restaurant / lounge or hotel lobby in past development proposals.  But we do have to tread lightly here.  This is one of the most beautiful and important buildings in the city, and altering it significantly lowers its value and could potentially jeopardize any future redevelopment efforts.

 

here's the problems I forsee and why I would consider this a nonstarter. 

 

1.  Who's going to pay for this?  The lobby of the tower isn't just damaged.  It's essentially gone.  No frills or not, it's going to going to be expensive to build out a lobby.  The floors are also completely gutted.  Which is great for someone coming in for a new development proposal, not so great for someone looking to move in.... So who pays for the build out?  Build out of office space is expensive.  Do we know what the condition of electricals and mechanicals are even in, etc?  Would you as a taxpayer of Cuyahoga county want to pay to build out a new lobby, mechanicals, and at least bare minimum move in condition finishes for this space... in a building you are trying to sell, when a developer may not want those tennants, this use, etc.  which means it will cost him more money to develop which lowers your price.  And given the cost of buildout the taxpayers spend, how long will it take you to recover that money on the lease terms they agree to.  I'm guessing they'd have to be there a heck of a lot longer than a couple years.

 

Would PC or GCP even remotely think about investing this type of money into the space themselves given that they have no idea who is going to own this and when they get kicked out of their space? Didn't they just go through that?

 

2.  Is all this effort really worth 2-3 floors of space and could it even be ready by October when they may have to be out of Higbees?

 

3.  As beautiful as the rotunda itself is, it has no outside presence which may make it difficult to get people inside (unlike their current space which hits people upside the head).  I think if PC and GCP end up looking for separate spaces the rotunda alone could work for PC as they have a low level of employees (34) that could probably fit on the 2nd floor with "showroom space" on the main floor.  but again.  If they are doing this, they better not be permanently changing this space in any way.  The rotunda adds too much value to any potential redevelopment of this site.  And when someone buys it, they won't want PC there... so IF they end up considering this... move your desks in, keep your hammer and nails at home.  let them temporarily use it until the complex sells.

 

**** so in summation I think using AT is a complete non starter because it is a financial disaster waiting to happen.  PC could use the rotunda if they don't mess with it.  GCP would have to look elsewhere.  And honestly I think this is all a non starter just because there is too much space way closer to move in ready in a short time frame.  Hell I'd be fine if PC took office space somehwere and put the old C-Tix booth to use on star plaza and made that a visitors center.

I love the Mayor!

What you outlined in #3 is what I was imagining.  PC moves to the rotunda alone, the first floor becomes visitor space, maybe an impromptu local history exhibit.  Offices in the second floor.  I don't see why they would need to permanently alter the space, though I don't know the details of their needs.  GCP can go anywhere, I would think.  There isn't a public component to their offices.

I got the 15,000sq. ft. number from this article

City OK's Ameritrust Tower demolition

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20070629/FREE/70629020

 

...Mr. Coyne said the county’s representatives made a persuasive case that the tower’s tiny 15,000-square-foot floors and other shortcomings made adaptive reuse problematic.

 

When I first wrote up this idea, I said that the casino interests should pay to bring the building up to code, and all relocation expenses.  Since the constitutional amendment only permits the casino to open in certain places, the ball is in GCP's court. 

 

With the convention center going under the management of MMPI, Positively Cleveland is going to lose a large percentage of funding that comes from the hotel tax.  They are fighting it, so a compromise has to be made.  Housing the group in a county building may be that compromise.

 

So the crux of this idea is to leverage the urgency the casino operators have in order to open as quickly as possible, with the needs of the county to improve/find use for the AT tower along with the financial needs of Positively Cleveland.

 

 

As for the lobby

Developer bids to reuse Breuer & Ameritrust complex

Despite some damage to the exterior lobby of the Breuer, including the demolition of a one-of-a-kind window treatment, Corna notes that the original lobby’s granite walls, floors, and concierge are still intact.

http://www.gcbl.org/building/rebuilding-cities/historic-preservation/preservation-efforts-for-breuer-tower/developers-bid-to-reuse-breuer

 

 

When the GCP was the Greater Cleveland Growth Association, their offices were in the (then) Union Commerce Building. I think the move to Tower City was in the 90s.

 

So they could conceivably move right back where they started, with PC across the street.

but again, I think spending considerable sums of money that could be so well used elsewhere where it would have a significant and lasting impact (think ps or the malls), just for some offices for the gcp, which in a place like AT would most definitely be temporary, would be a shame and a waste.

 

Like I said, if PC were to move into the trust rotunda by themselves and not make any significant alterations i think it would be a great "temporary use".  But they may be looking for something more permanent.  no one likes to move their office every 2 years.

 

 

interesting about the floor plates.  that almost seems to defy the laws of physics given the footprint of the building.

It's a little hard to size things off google earth, but 15,000 looks to be consistent with the outline of the building.  It has somewhere around 120 ft of frontage, and goes about 140 ft back, which equals 16,800 sq ft.  But it isn't a perfect square, so it's actually somewhat less than that.

unbelievable, but I guess proved true.  Regardless it still seems financially foolish to do the amount of work required for 99 employees (it would seem crazy for that to take up more than 3 floors even with these small plates... of a 28 story building), that will inevitably have to move.  So like I said, I'm guessing it will be a nonstarter and not even factor into their search. (speaking for the gcp)

And there's always this to contend with...

 

Cuyahoga County commissioners finally find a use for their empty Ameritrust tower

By Henry J. Gomez, The Plain Dealer

April 02, 2010, 8:40AM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Cuyahoga County commissioners have a bite on the Ameritrust complex, the long-vacant downtown office complex they have been trying to unload since grand plans for a new government headquarters crumbled.

 

But don't bust out the party favors or call the welcome wagon. Cue the fire sirens instead.

 

Cleveland public safety leaders are pursuing a pact with county officials that would allow city firefighters to use the 28-story tower for training exercises, free of charge. City Council members and commissioners are expected to approve the arrangement this month.

 

More at:  http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2010/04/empty_ameritrust_tower_could_become_training_site_for_cleveland_firefighters.html

 

 

 

I have to say, however, that I like Punch's idea.

so who pays for it?

The casino

No clue... but a good idea nonetheless. 

 

Edit:  I just remembered the county doesn't own any other buildings, only that they leased space from different buildings throughout downtown.

 

Punch's idea could be applied to a different county owned buliding (if there is one), with substantially less or no up front remediation costs.

so you would rather take the casino money and spend it on a temporary office space for 130 employees.  Money that we the citizens will get relatively little use out of, and money that will essentially be lost when the building is sold.  Money that will go towards making the sale and redevelopment of that property more difficult.

 

Than say the casino money going towards a new public square, or making sure the malls are done correctly....???

 

3 stories of a 28 story office building.  99 employees.

^^I know they lease a lot of office space.  Originally, that was the reason that they wanted to buy the property and build a county administration building there.

So now you are saying you want the (just trying to clarify) that you want the casino money to go towards restarting the county adminstration complex in the AT?

I am saying that the casino can only go certain places per the constitutional amendment, and the only location they seem to be looking at is the Higbee's building.  GCP is there now, and I assume they have a lease.  So, GCP is in a position to to ask for a lot in return for moving.  The casino does not have other options.

The idea would be for GCP agreeing to move out contingent that the casino interests, whether that be Mr. Gilbert or the casino operator, pay for bringing the facilities up to code and for all relocation expenses. 

I am saying that the casino can only go certain places per the constitutional amendment, and the only location they seem to be looking at is the Higbee's building. GCP is there now, and I assume they have a lease. So, GCP is in a position to to ask for a lot in return for moving. The casino does not have other options.

The idea would be for GCP agreeing to move out contingent that the casino interests, whether that be Mr. Gilbert or the casino operator, pay for bringing the facilities up to code and for all relocation expenses.

 

I may be reading into this wrong, but I don't see why the Casino operator would pay for a build out and modifications on a gutted building for them.  Sure, they should cover the move, but more likely into a sufficient building that does not need any major interior/exterior modifications.

^exactly.  And their lease is with FCE, not the casino.  And I'm guessing no one here has a copy of that to see what sort of broken lease provisions are in it.  I'm sure something is spelled out.  And I'm pretty sure spending millions of dollars to build a temporary office at a location that is currently completely vacant, gutted, and for sale wouldn't be one of them when there is plenty of good move in ready real estate near by.

The ideas are interesting, but many aren't realistic.

Detroit's MGM Grand temporary casino cost $220M

How many ballot initiatives have the casino industry funded over the past two decades?

 

The casinos have the money to do this. 

 

They are only able to build out the temporary casino at the Higbees site.

The quicker they can open, the quicker they can turn a profit.

 

Are you certain of the costs that would be needed for the office space and rotunda to be brough up to code?

Are you also certain that any renovations would have absolutely no positive effect on potential future buyers?

What are your plans for the AT property for the next 5 years?

How are you propose to settle the competing claims for the hotel bed tax that MMPI and Positively Cleveland both want?

Where would you put the visitor's center?  Is it as good of a location as the Higbee's building?

 

There is an opportunity here to kill a lot of birds here with one stone.

Are some of the upper floors of Higbee's still vacant?

 

If so, GCP could just move up a few floors

Punch, I still just don't see any basis of reason for this other than the "that'd be cool".

 

Could the "casino" afford it is irrelevant.  They don't have to do it, so why would they?  What they are required to do is spelled out in the constitution.  We can do whatever we choose with that upfront money.  Why would we spend it on anything temporary, when it could be invested in something for the public good like PS or the malls?  I'm guessing most of what comes in annually will go towards plugging holes in the budget gap.  Maybe even just sustaining where we are at if the state decides to cut back funding to municipalities out of spite.  but the Casino doesn't have to spend a nickel outside of what is outlined in the ammendment.

 

This is NOT a casino issue.  This is an issue between Forest City Enterprises, the landlord, and 2 of its tennants.  I'm sure they will come to some sort of resolution.  The issue between MMPI, the county, PC and the bed tax is an issue they will sort out.  Currently PC is making a case for why they should continue to recieve that funding.  I know someone who works at PC, they are working alongside MMPI and it is not contentious.  They will figure out what is fair. I also haven't heard anyone from positively cleveland or the GCP crying bloody murder.  They've simply said, they may need to find a new place to lease and they are starting that search.

 

Personally I think PC (WITHOUT the GCP) could easily move into the rotunda with little issues, and it would be a great space, that could easily be vacated if/when the AT sells.  I think the GCP could walk across the street and get itself a prime place at 200 ps.  There is still whole floors available there.  I think both of them could move into Halle's tomorrow (also owned by FCE) and be a terrific fit.

 

In the end I think the important questions you want to ask are:

 

Who on earth wins in this deal if the GCP moves their offices to AT?

 

Why would GCP (and their whopping 99 employees) want to be the only tennant in an otherwise vacant building?

 

Could they even have that space ready in 4-1/2 months?

 

Why on earth would the county want to be involved in this?  We know they don't want to move in, it doesn't meet their needs, they wanted to tear the tower down. And the building they wanted was going to cost HundreadS of millions of dollars.  It will indeed make selling the building more difficult. How would the county possibly come out ahead on this?  Do you think they want to be a landlord, hell they may even lose money having to keep the power in the building on for that ONE tennant.

 

I can't see how ANYONE involved would want to be a part of this, except some people on a message board who would find it fun to see a few lights on in a vacant building.

 

And yes... in my professional opinion, as someone who was built out office spaces ranging from small branch offices in strip centers to being responsible for buildout and coordination of 17 floors in a corporate headquarters skyscraper.  It is going to cost a crap ton of money to get that building ready for occupants.  That's right... a crap ton. ;)

 

Halle Building... so so easy.  So much sense. :)

Halle Building sounds good too.  Make it so!  Don't forget that America came to know this building throughout the 90s as Drew Carey's workplace.  And Halle Berry is named after it.  Seems like a natural fit for our visitors center.

There's always the corner of E 4th and Euclid after "Bodies" moves out.

 

Bang and Clatter; or the dilapidated storefront next door.  I'm sure that they want something they can just move right into though so maybe that wont work so well, but B&C would still be close to their current location and near e4th.  Also the Halle building by Playhouse could be good too.

 

 

I honestly thnk this would be the best location.  Fix up the LAST empty crappy storefront on Lower Euclid Ave, and have high, high visability.

 

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and say neither of those storefronts would meet their space requirements.

The point was made in another thread that PC and GCP are two different entities with different needs... PC does seem to need a visible storefront, but how much space do they really require?  Most of their Higbee space seemed wasted.

Currently PC uses aprox 40,000 sf.  10,000 for employees and 30,000 for welcome center.  I noted upthread it seemed overly large given their head count.  They could probably very easily trim those numbers down to 6-8,000 sf for employees (for possible growth), and 20-25,000 for the welcome center or basically somewhere in the neighborhood of 25-32,000 sf.  I'd be surprised if those storefronts are more than about 8k sf.

Our little game of finding them a new home is getting though.  I think I would like to see them remain relatively close to PS, moving up Euclid if possible.  McCleve do you know if Tri-C will be using all the space on the first floor of the May Co building?  All the way to Prospect?  I was thinking that the Prospect side may make a good spot for them, seems to have plenty of frontage, just not sure on the depth.  Also, I think the Halle building was brought up before.  Is there any room on the first floor for a welcome center?  I seem to recall that it is one big lobby.

I vote Halle's. Too bad, though that visitors have to witness the big dead zone right in the middle of Euclid... I have tried to make contacts with property owners about doing up the windows, but with little to no responses.

I believe there would be plenty of space on the prospect side of May Co. if PC and the owner were both interested, but I believe the owner is moving in a different direction.

 

Halle's i would think would be the front runner given that it has high visibility, close to a tourism center in PHS, and maybe most importantly for purposes of this discussion is owned and operated by FCE.

 

There would also be room for GCP at Halle's if they feel they have developed some sort of symbiotic relationship with PC, but really they could go into several different "prime" office spots quite easily.

 

I do love the idea of PC being in the rotunda, even if on a temporary basis.

From Crain's, subscription required:

 

GCP favors new HQ in Theater District

Move necessary with temp casino on deck

 

By JAY MILLER

 

4:30 am, December 6, 2010

 

The Greater Cleveland Partnership has zeroed in on a new headquarters site for the city's chamber of commerce group. It's in the Playhouse-Square district at 1240 Huron Road, two sources told Crain's Cleveland Business.

 

With the move, GCP would part ways with Positively Cleveland, its shared services partner in the Higbee Building on Public Square.

 

GCP and Positively Cleveland, the region's convention and visitors bureau, are moving to allow for a temporary casino to take over their current space on the first two floors of the Higbee Building.

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20101206/SUB1/312069988

 

This is the same building that Liggett Stashower is in (LS is on the bottom three floors and GCP is planning to take the top two.)  Positively Cleveland and the Greater Cleveland Sports Commission are planning on sharing space, but the location hasn't been determined yet.

I have been in Liggett before and it is a great space! Very cool, and a sweet location.