I am not a huge "train buff" and and haven't been able to quickly find an answer to these questions.

 

Here's the situation: some of you know I am writing a book on the Cincinnati subway.  Some of you might have heard the rumor that the subway was never used because the "subway cars couldn't fit".  This is a totally preposterous rumor that grew out of variety of rumors planted by those who sought to kill the project. 

 

It took a long search through obscure stuff to find materials that weren't destroyed or possibly forged that prove undeniably that the tunnels were designed to accommodate the era's freight trains, which had always been my suspicion.  Today I finally found that confirmation in an article that appeared in an engineering journal published in 1921, years before the project was killed and the dimensions of the tunnel shrunk by the lies of politicians. 

 

The official clearance designed between top of rail and the roof of the tunnels is 14'9".

 

Here's the problem -- the tunnel was going to run rapid transit trains with a third rail and interurbans with an overhead wire, then potentially freight trains at night.  So my question is -- could a box car of that era have used a tunnel of that dimension while not interfering with the overhead trolley wire?  I am aware that box cars have grown much higher since the 1920's, so I'm curious about 1920's era equipment. 

 

If the freight trains were going to cause a conflict, then the interurbans were going to have to switch to 3-rail operation.  This matter was simply never addressed in any document I've found, other than letters *from* the interurbans to the city.  So no official story from the city as to what the plan was. 

 

 

 

I doubt there would have been a conflict between boxcars and the overhead wire, as the wire would be anchored directly to the tunnel ceiling and would have only hung down a few inches, potentially leaving as much as 14'-0" vertical clearance from the top of rail to the wire.

My understanding was that the tunnels couldn't accommodate freight cars, especially not around the curve at Plum Street.  Coupled standard freight cars need curves under about 200' in radius, which is pretty large.  That number is certainly lower with the 40' standard car lengths of the past, compared to the 50' standard today, but that's still a pretty broad curve.  Even so, I don't see how there'd be any issue with the overhead trolley wire.  In subway tunnels, the overhead wire is normally suspended directly from the ceiling of the tunnel with an insulator, so it's only going to be a few inches below the ceiling.  If a freight boxcar was potentially in that zone, I'd be more concerned about it hitting the rounded corners of the tunnel between the ceiling and walls. 

 

It looks like most freight cars today would not fit in the tunnels at all, with total heights over 15'.  http://www.worldtraderef.com/WTR_site/Rail_Cars/Guide_to_Rail_Cars.asp  However, something to consider is the possibility of using interurban freight equipment in the tunnels.  They used shorter cars, smaller trucks, special couplers that had a lot more side-to-side play, and rounded corners, all for negotiating the tighter clearances and curves of street railway trackage.  That seems a much more likely scenario, since there's no steam railroad connections to the tunnel (not that there couldn't be), and the interurbans would likely be hauling those cars with their own electric locomotives or box motors. 

Here's the set up for a question that might give you your answer.... The Lake Shore Electric between Cleveland and Toledo ran freight trains as well as their famed 80 mph passenger interurbans. Those passenger and freight cars used to go through the subway deck of the Detroit -Superior High Level Bridge into downtown Cleveland. The LSL's interurban freight terminal was where the parking deck for Progressive Field (home of the Cleveland Indians) stands today (just off East 9th Street). I say that just in case anyone disputes that LSL ran freight trains through the subway into downtown Cleveland.

 

The question is: What are the dimensions of the subway deck in Cleveland? And how do they compare with those of the Cincinnati subway?

Just found this.... In the back of the book "The Lake Shore Electric Railway Story" there is a roster of the LSE's rolling stock, including freight cars/trailers. The roster shows the length of the freight cars, overall weight, capacity weight, wheel diameter, manufacturer, car numbers, year built, if they were single- or double-ended cars and what was their fate if known.

 

I suspect that the cars' lengths are important to you. Their longest freight cars were two 60-footers made in 1916-18 by the Jewett Car Co.  Their next-longest were seven 55'2" cars made in-house by LSE in 1918-20. Worthy of note were 15 LSE freight cars built in 1920 by the Cincinnati Car Co. that were 55 feet long. Their shortest freight cars were five 17'2" Bonner Pedestal Railwagons made in 1929-30 by Fruehauf Corp. -- a decade after the D-S Subway was built. But most of their freight cars appeared to be in the 50- to 55-foot-long range. Their overall weights were in range of 70,000 to 85,000 pounds, and capacity weights ranging from 30,000 to 50,000 pounds.

 

If you would like to get an idea of what the subway deck looked like in terms of detailed track layout, where load-bearing posts were located for supporting the overhead roadway deck and other things that might have affected the lateral clearances of LSE rolling stock, the graphic below may be of some use. The two northernmost tracks (top) were used by the LSE plus the streetcars on Detroit and Clifton. The two southernmost tracks (bottom) were used by the Cleveland Southwestern interurban (which also had freight operations and used the same downtown freight terminal LSE used) plus the streetcars on Madison/Bridge, Lorain, Fulton, Pearl, State and Broadview.....

 

 

OK, that's the east end of the bridge. I'm trying to find a similar diagram of the subway deck on the west end of the bridge which has the sharp turn southward on West 25th that the Cleveland Southwestern interurbans/freights used to take. This above-ground view gives an indication of that turn...

 

Thanks for the quick response.  Actually now that I think of it, the trolley wire in Boston's green line tunnels only hangs an inch or two below the arch of the tunnel roof.  Still, I'd imagine that the loading gauge for the boxcars would be pretty damn close to that wire.  Boxcars got progressively taller after the war, I presume because of the appearance of fork lifts.  Now they're over 13 feet tall inside because double stacking has allowed ordinary equipment to get bigger. 

 

>My understanding was that the tunnels couldn't accommodate freight cars, especially not around the curve at Plum Street.

 

No, it was definitely built to the day's freight specs.  The Plum St. turn is on a wider radius than people think.  People assume that it follows the same curvature as the road, but it in fact cuts under the inside sidewalk, which is still public right-of-way of course.  I'm sure that the radius is at least 200 feet.  Also, the tubes widen to 15 feet in the curves from 13 feet on straightaways. 

 

You guys would crack up if you saw these news articles from the late 20's, as various party goons started lying about the subway's physical character.  It's amazing how tenacious these rumors have been...there were people calling into talk radio the other week saying "the subway cars couldn't fit", and they were certain of it, no matter that all subway equipment is custom made, and a lot of the subway trains in Europe are much smaller than the ones here. 

 

 

You guys would crack up if you saw these news articles from the late 20's, as various party goons started lying about the subway's physical character. It's amazing how tenacious these rumors have been...there were people calling into talk radio the other week saying "the subway cars couldn't fit", and they were certain of it, no matter that all subway equipment is custom made, and a lot of the subway trains in Europe are much smaller than the ones here.

 

They're doing the exact same thing today with 3C. If the opposition lies often enough and loud enough, people who don't know any better will accept it as fact.

^ Agreed. The Cincinnati subway was built to the same clearances as to what is now the Red Line in Boston/Cambridge, which runs subway cars that are 10'-0" wide and 70'-0" long. By way of comparison, subway cars on modern systems such as the Washington Metro and MARTA are 10'-0" wide  by 75'-0" long, and Chicago 'L' cars are only 8'-6' wide by 48'-0" long, so our subway tunnels certainly had fairly generous clearances for its time. The whole "the curves were too tight for subway trains" meme is an unfortunate urban legend that refuses to die.

 

  I have a booklet titled "Tunnel Diagrams of the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad Volume II: Western Divisions...Plans, Sections, and Portals, Original Drawings from c1905, with Additions and Revisions to 1965." It is a reproduction of a set of engineering drawings of 64 different railroad tunnels, built from 1853 to 1947.

 

  Paging through the drawings, there seems to be no set standard for tunnel dimensions until 1950. Generally, the newer tunnels are larger; also, some older ones were enlarged.

 

    Almost all of them have a Roman arch shape; that is, they have vertical sides with a half-circle crown.

 

  One has a distance of 11.80' from top of rail to springline, and a total height of 17.14'. Another has 10.13' from top of rail to springline, and has a total height of 18.31'.

 

  The smallest width of any of the 64 tunnels is 14 feet. Most of them are between 14 and 16 feet in width.

 

  I hope this helps. Let me know if you need any more specifics.