I'm curious about where other UOers go when they venture out into neighborhoods most people wouldn't dare without a bullet-proof vest. I go to Linden now and then for the Somali and Jamaican restaurants along with New Harvest which has their own garden. I'm also a fan of the Hilltop taco trucks. Hal & Al's bar/live music on Parsons is the only reason I need to go there. It's been a little while since I've been to a couple other areas which I should visit more often (near east and west). King-Lincoln has a good coffee shop and a Creole restaurant, while Franklinton has a solid diner with the best diner atmosphere I've found here.

 

What about yourselves? What places draw you outside of your main urban neighborhoods?

All of them, if I can.

Treme, 7th ward

I like to eat at Grovewood Tavern before catching a concert at the Beachland Ballroom and neither neighborhood where these are located (they're fairly close together, in the Collinwood neighborhood) are what I'd describe as making me feel "safe."  I always expect to come back to my car to find the window smashed in but so far it hasn't happened, though I've been to the Beachland less than 10 times total.

 

When doing shows at cleveland public theater, the more adventurous cast members would sometimes go across the street to the City Grill for a drink.  This was before the Detroit-Shoreway neighborhood could have been labeled "up and coming" and it was pretty gritty.  On one such typical night, the owner threw everyone out because a whore was in the bathroom with a guy in a wheelchair servicing him and they were doing drugs and he got pissed and tossed all of us and locked the door.  Or you might see a bar fight (the pathetic kind, between broken down adults, not young males full of testosterone), or just a bunch of washed up folks nursing a beer.  I remember we had a guest director in from Louisville and she was amazed that we would even go in there to drink.  There was a rumor that they cooked a white castle style burger and that the Grill was where that smelly little onion burger originated, though I highly doubt that's true.  I certainly never ate there.

 

I used to like to go to the Diamond, which is a gentleman's club away from a lot of other clubs in the Flats, until my car window got smashed and I got some expensive stuff stolen.  I had to drive my car to the police station to file a police report as they never came, even after I called them 3 times.  They found rocks of crack amongst the broken glass.  Lovely.

DMC? RnR I never would have guessed it....but I guess I really only have know the parent version of RNR....Believe me I know that isn't an accurate reflection of a person as a whole.

The parent RNR is but a short part of my life's journey so far.  Integrating my many personalities makes me feel a bit like Sybil sometimes :) 

RnR beat me to the Grovewood.

Ferris Steak House

I think the original one, which was in the bad location, closed. :(

It's moving to the old Swingo's on the Lake location, but I'm pretty sure that's not happening until summer and that they are still open on Detroit.

Not really a BAD neighborhood as media makes it out to be... But how about Seven Roses on Fleet in Slavic Village?

I was in Bakers Candies in Collinwood recently.  For me, I'd say North and South Collinwood in Cleveland.

 

Also I definitely would spend more in Slavic Village if I knew what else there was to support, besides the coffee shop by St. Stanislaus.

 

 

^Broadway has some pretty interesting places. Just don't go around when school is letting out.

 

Also, the Mill Creek Historical Center is a great place to visit if you're not hungry... If you are, there are still a handful of eateries along Fleet. Still a lot of interesting things between Slavic Village/Broadway/Newburgh Hts. area.

you know what i try to eat and buy local no matter what neighborhood i'm in. since i work in all the ny 'hoods i go the local places to shop or eat and try to pump them up with publicity on the internets social media outlets. i'm the mayor of tons of little joints on foursquare even after one post haha. so i hope everyone takes a moment to post about the rougher neighborhood places you go to on yelp and citysearch and cleveland dot bomb and sites like that -- after your purchase help them out further with your free/honest publicity!!!

you know what i try to eat and buy local no matter what neighborhood i'm in. since i work in all the ny 'hoods i go the local places to shop or eat and try to pump them up with publicity on the internets social media outlets. i'm the mayor of tons of little joints on foursquare even after one post haha. so i hope everyone takes a moment to post about the rougher neighborhood places you go to on yelp and citysearch and cleveland dot bomb and sites like that -- after your purchase help them out further with your free/honest publicity!!!

 

I'm glad you brought that up.  Yelp, foursquare, opentable, facebook dont see a lot of activity in Cleveland.  Compared to metro regions the same size it's like people dont use social media to the same extent.

 

So folks use those apps and review places. Marketers do use that information.  That information leads to your city being perceived as "hip" or "popular".

at a minimum posting reviews and recommendations puts some off the radar places on the map --at least for people who have access to mobile internet service on your cellphone.

you know what i try to eat and buy local no matter what neighborhood i'm in. since i work in all the ny 'hoods i go the local places to shop or eat and try to pump them up with publicity on the internets social media outlets. i'm the mayor of tons of little joints on foursquare even after one post haha. so i hope everyone takes a moment to post about the rougher neighborhood places you go to on yelp and citysearch and cleveland dot bomb and sites like that -- after your purchase help them out further with your free/honest publicity!!!

 

I'm glad you brought that up. Yelp, foursquare, opentable, facebook dont see a lot of activity in Cleveland. Compared to metro regions the same size it's like people dont use social media to the same extent.

 

Opentable hurts the restaurateurs that use it.  When I found that out, I quit using it.  Yelp is a freaking joke and half the posts on there are fake.  Nobody in the real food world takes it seriously.

 

Well the term "bad" is relative, and I'll kinda go anywhere but I'd have to say Buckeye, the Euclid-Green neighborhood for that throwback health food store "Weber's", and places on Broadway (especially before Steelyard came along this was the closest place for downtown residents to go to chain discount stores, etc ---until about 2001 when even in Broadway these types of stores started to close down, although they were poorly maintained).

99% of downtown/in-town residents wouldn't go there if they needed such things... it seems like they opted for Parma or Brooklyn or West Cleveland.

There are still good reasons to go to B'Way/Slavic Village (as said above... Seven Roses restaurant, and others) and the Metroparks system.

 

 

Hm...well I think most people would consider my neighborhood in LA "bad", so I guess I spend money in a bad neighborhood all the time lol.

 

As far as Cincinnati, I'm not really sure...there aren't a lot of places of interest (for me) in many bad neighborhoods.  I go to Findlay Market now and again, stores and restaurants in Northside, but I don't even know if those count.  I guess the only institution that would count would be the Zoo, seeing that Avondale is pretty ghetto.

 

One spot I've been meaning to check out is The Greenwich in a pretty rough part of Walnut Hills, but as to date, I haven't been.

A problem in many "bad" neighborhoods...at least what I am thinking of "bad"....in this area, anyway...is that they are often void of anything other than a few joints hanging on for dear life...... In terms of food, more often than not they can be nutritional wastelands where the best you may find is McCrap or some other fast food that is nothing special. An area that serves as a good example is 55th and Woodland. I know I posted a photo of that area as it was in the 40's....if you look at it today, it is fast food and fuel stations. The word "Ghetto" has taken on a new meaning as well. "Ghetto" although poorer areas it described, did not necessarily mean they were bad in terms of crime, etc.  Kind of like how the words "full figured" never meant FAT...but somehow have been stolen and bastardized to kindly describe FAT women. Jane Russell was never fat as a "full figured gal."  :-D

Hm...well I think most people would consider my neighborhood in LA "bad", so I guess I spend money in a bad neighborhood all the time lol.

 

What neighborhood?

you know what i try to eat and buy local no matter what neighborhood i'm in. since i work in all the ny 'hoods i go the local places to shop or eat and try to pump them up with publicity on the internets social media outlets. i'm the mayor of tons of little joints on foursquare even after one post haha. so i hope everyone takes a moment to post about the rougher neighborhood places you go to on yelp and citysearch and cleveland dot bomb and sites like that -- after your purchase help them out further with your free/honest publicity!!!

 

 

 

I'm glad you brought that up.  Yelp, foursquare, opentable, facebook dont see a lot of activity in Cleveland.  Compared to metro regions the same size it's like people dont use social media to the same extent.

 

Opentable hurts the restaurateurs that use it.  When I found that out, I quit using it.  Yelp is a freaking joke and half the posts on there are fake.  Nobody in the real food world takes it seriously.

How exactly does opentable hurt restaurants?  Yelps reviews are fake?  As far as "nobody in "real food world" takes them serious, I find that untrue.  It's not used from a perspective of food critics but everyday people's experiences.  Those businesses (from an operations standpoint) use the feedback on sites like yelp, city search, four square more than you would think.  I have a lot of research on those companies.

In Columbus, I drove by Yellow Brick Pizza the other day, amid boarded-up Section 8 rowhouses on Oak Street on the Near East Side. I hear it's good pizza and a great beer selection. I plan to try it.

Open Table makes restaurants pay a referral fee.  If you don't think that paying money out of their pocket affects their bottom line, you have a different management style than I would have envisioned.  You call the restaurant directly to make a reservation, it costs them nothing.  You reserve through Open Table, it costs them.  Not to mention the startup costs, which are well over $1000.  Here is an excerpt from a blog that explains it in detail:

 

"Open Table is expensive! All those wonderful features and advantages come with a hefty price tag.

 

Here are the numbers. The start up costs are $1,299 plus tax. That gets you hardware, installation, and training. My generous, smart, and very persistent sales rep (who also reads IPOS) has offered me a discount for being a new restaurant, so I'll pay about $1,080.

 

Once Contigo opens, we will also pay Open Table a user fee of $199 per month, about $2,400 per year.

 

The start up costs and monthly costs are the same no matter what size or how expensive your restaurant is. My small neighborhood restaurant pays the same amount as a multi-million dollar 250-seat restaurant downtown.

 

The most significant charge is this: Open Table charges the restaurant $1 per cover (per person in your party) when diners book through its website, 25¢ when they book through the restaurant's website. The rationale for the higher charge when diners discover available tables through the Open Table website is that Open Table wants to be compensated for assisting the restaurant's marketing.

 

One buck per person. Sounds insignificant, doesn't it? The problem for more value-focused restaurants like Contigo is that Open Table charges us the same as the more expensive, special occasion restaurants. When a diner pays $40 to eat at Contigo, that dollar equals about 2.5% of the cost of the meal. That's significant in an industry where the average profit margin is less than 5%. At a more expensive restaurant, on the other hand, that dollar may equal less than 1% of the check.

 

Let's assume I go with Open Table. As the owner of a neighborhood restaurant, I'd like to keep about a third of Contigo's seats available for walk-ins. Let's assume most of the other two thirds of the restaurant's guests book through Open Table. If successful, a 60-seat restaurant like Contigo could easily pay $1,000-1,500 a month to Open Table in cover charges. That's $12-18,000 per year on top of the $2,400 annual charges and $1,080 start up costs. When you add all that up, the real per cover charge rises to closer to $1.25."

 

(From http://inpraiseofsardines.typepad.com/blogs/2008/09/behind-the-curt.html)

 

Now, on to Yelp.  Ads for paid Yelpers can be found on most Craiglist cities.  You can find TONS of links on the internet about their fake reviews, like this one: http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/03/05/yelp-controversy-highlights-trouble-with-consumer-reviews

 

And from this site: http://digg.com/business_finance/Yelp_com_Pisses_Off_Merchants_Who_May_Submit_Fake_Reviews

"Yelp's sales reps use negative postings as a "lead source" to call the owner and attempt to sell Business Owner Accounts. * I received a phone call from a sales rep named Summer who stated that negative reviews could be moved to the bottom of the page and possibly removed in the future if I purchased a Business Owner Account."

 

Not to mention the Yelp extortion lawsuit that is pending right now.  http://blogs.vocalo.org/dolinsky/2010/02/attn-chicago-restaurants-yelp-accused-in-extortion-lawsuit/16305

 

Anything else you'd like to disagree about?

 

Couldn't OpenTable be considered a cost of doing business in this new wired world?  A using a credit card carries a simmial usage charge and many restaurants would not open with out the service as they know they probably won't get as many customers.  I doubt that the set up fee for CC service is as steep, and that seems really expensive for something that likely doesnt need a physical hardware on site.  So OpenTable is providing a service and, much like CC's were not universially accepted(and still are not universally accepted), is getting some push back.

Oh, of course it "could," but there are still a fair amount of places that won't take CCs because of the fees, or, specifically, won't take AX because their fees are way higher.  Unless it's the gold standard and there is almost no other way to make reservations, I doubt it will become such a part of the norm that owners will have to start figuring these fees into their cost of doing business. 

 

There are some benefits the restaurant, of course, beyond the costs, there are pros to any con. But when it's just as easy for me to pick up a phone to make a reservation, and I'm more likely to get a more realistic picture of the available tables, and to top it off I am not causing them to incur a fee, that's the way I'm going to go unless it becomes really inconvenient for me to call them.  For example, I do use a CC at a restaurant even though that charges them a fee, because it has become really inconvenient for me to use cash all the time - but when I have cash, that's what I use.  I am just not in the business of helping restaurants incur fees and raise their costs.  A local take-away lunch eatery offers a frequent diner card whereby you get a free meal for every like 15 or 20 that you purchase (up to $5, big whoop), and I keep refusing the card because I'm not patronizing them for them to give away free food to me, I'm there for them to make a profit and stay in business.

A good secondary post about OpenTable's costs with info from their IPO.  References the blog post that RnR did, with regards to different costs.  Actually makes a case that it is more expensive than $1.25 per diner.

 

http://blog.jwegener.com/2009/02/03/opentable-ipo-analysis-restaurant-marketing/

 

And after this we should probably get back to the topic on hand as this has veered too far away

A local take-away lunch eatery offers a frequent diner card whereby you get a free meal for every like 15 or 20 that you purchase (up to $5, big whoop), and I keep refusing the card because I'm not patronizing them for them to give away free food to me, I'm there for them to make a profit and stay in business.

 

They build the cost of your "free meal" into the price of each meal you pay for.  Why stop at refusing the card?  You could just pay them $20 for each $5 meal you purchase if you really want to see them profit that badly.

It's just my personal choice. 

 

Back on topic!

I found it interesting that people consider Grovewood Tavern to be in a "bad neighborhood".  I guess it's not the greatest, but it's not in the bottom half of neighborhoods in Cleveland, either.  I also like to eat at the Harp, and I consider that neighborhood to be as bad or worse than North Collinwood, although I fully expect many people here to disagree simply due to the fact that it is on the West Side and close to Ohio City and Detroit-Shoreway.  Then again, maybe my perception of North Collinwood is off.

I wouldn't go walking around the Harp at night, but they have a dedicated parking lot so it seems somehow safer.  Grovewood and the Beachland do not have parking lots and the neighborhood just doesn't feel as safe to me.

 

 

I wouldn't go walking around the Harp at night, but they have a dedicated parking lot so it seems somehow safer.

 

Actually, that area is fairly uneventful. 

I wouldn't go walking around the Harp at night, but they have a dedicated parking lot so it seems somehow safer. 

 

Actually, that area is fairly uneventful. 

 

"Uneventful" is subjective.  To me I wouldn't consider it bad, but then again I wouldn't consider the Grovewood Tavern area to be bad either.

 

EDIT: Checking crimereports.com confirms my instincts...multiple robberies in the last 2 weeks in the area around the Harp (what the crimereports.com screen shows in default zoom after search, about a 1 mile radius), including one right at the corner of W. 45th and Detroit last Tuesday at 8:50 PM, and a couple Assault with Deadly Weapon reports, and a few thefts.  Only one robbery in the area of the Grovewood Tavern reported in the last two weeks, and it was 11 blocks away, one theft, and almost every assault is domestic violence or menacing.

It's subjective in its interpretation. There may not be a lot of actual, documented crime happening there, but I agree with you, the "feeling" of safety is subjective, and to me, it's not an area I'd walk around by myself at night.

It's subjective in its interpretation. There may not be a lot of actual, documented crime happening there, but I agree with you, the "feeling" of safety is subjective, and to me, it's not an area I'd walk around by myself at night.

 

My bedroom window looks out onto that area, so I know it well. Besides the occassional hookers (which seem to have disappeared lately), it is a quiet stretch. Between 45th and 32nd, it is pretty desolate and that is probably why it feels unsafe to you. The neighbors in that area keep a good watch on things.

Ok, seriously, can you say "besides the hookers" and then claim that it's an uneventful neighborhood with a straight face? 

IMO, the area between the Waterloo district and E 185, north of the Shoreway, gets an undeserved bad rep.  One of my closest friends just moved out of a house on E 170 (which pretty much runs right into the Grovewood) and I can tell you that he had some of the friendliest neighbors you could hope for.  And not just the one's right next to him, but really up and down the street.  It's more diverse than people assume too. 

 

The only complaint that he had was that there was a huge hole right in front of his tree lawn which literally could engulf a full grown man.  Somebody dug it up at some point and never filled it.  A certain politician (who I will spare from naming directly) promised to get it filled when he saw it but never did.

Ok, seriously, can you say "besides the hookers" and then claim that it's an uneventful neighborhood with a straight face?

 

My mistake. There are no hookers in that stretch. When they used to come around, they hung out around W. 29th. The thing you see the most are people riding their bikes back home to D-S or warehouse district kids jogging over the bridge in the early evening. Late night, it is pretty empty except for the occasional person waiting for the bus.

Late night, it is pretty empty except for the occasional person waiting for the bus.

 

Which is not exactly a good thing for an area with a fair amount of reported crime.

 

Again, I am not saying that I consider the Harp to necessarily be in a bad neighborhood.  I just find it surprising that everyone assumes Grovewood is in a bad neighborhood but assumes that it's fine around the Harp.  There is a definite westside bias around here.

Open Table makes restaurants pay a referral fee.  If you don't think that paying money out of their pocket affects their bottom line, you have a different management style than I would have envisioned.  You call the restaurant directly to make a reservation, it costs them nothing.  You reserve through Open Table, it costs them.  Not to mention the start-up costs, which are well over $1000.  Here is an excerpt from a blog that explains it in detail:

 

"Open Table is expensive! All those wonderful features and advantages come with a hefty price tag.

 

Here are the numbers. The start up costs are $1,299 plus tax. That gets you hardware, installation, and training. My generous, smart, and very persistent sales rep (who also reads IPOS) has offered me a discount for being a new restaurant, so I'll pay about $1,080.

 

Once Contigo opens, we will also pay Open Table a user fee of $199 per month, about $2,400 per year.

 

The start up costs and monthly costs are the same no matter what size or how expensive your restaurant is. My small neighborhood restaurant pays the same amount as a multi-million dollar 250-seat restaurant downtown.

 

The most significant charge is this: Open Table charges the restaurant $1 per cover (per person in your party) when diners book through its website, 25¢ when they book through the restaurant's website. The rationale for the higher charge when diners discover available tables through the Open Table website is that Open Table wants to be compensated for assisting the restaurant's marketing.

 

One buck per person. Sounds insignificant, doesn't it? The problem for more value-focused restaurants like Contigo is that Open Table charges us the same as the more expensive, special occasion restaurants. When a diner pays $40 to eat at Contigo, that dollar equals about 2.5% of the cost of the meal. That's significant in an industry where the average profit margin is less than 5%. At a more expensive restaurant, on the other hand, that dollar may equal less than 1% of the check.

 

Let's assume I go with Open Table. As the owner of a neighborhood restaurant, I'd like to keep about a third of Contigo's seats available for walk-ins. Let's assume most of the other two thirds of the restaurant's guests book through Open Table. If successful, a 60-seat restaurant like Contigo could easily pay $1,000-1,500 a month to Open Table in cover charges. That's $12-18,000 per year on top of the $2,400 annual charges and $1,080 start up costs. When you add all that up, the real per cover charge rises to closer to $1.25."

 

(From http://inpraiseofsardines.typepad.com/blogs/2008/09/behind-the-curt.html)

 

Now, on to Yelp.  Ads for paid Yelpers can be found on most Craiglist cities.  You can find TONS of links on the internet about their fake reviews, like this one: http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/03/05/yelp-controversy-highlights-trouble-with-consumer-reviews

 

And from this site: http://digg.com/business_finance/Yelp_com_Pisses_Off_Merchants_Who_May_Submit_Fake_Reviews

"Yelp's sales reps use negative postings as a "lead source" to call the owner and attempt to sell Business Owner Accounts. * I received a phone call from a sales rep named Summer who stated that negative reviews could be moved to the bottom of the page and possibly removed in the future if I purchased a Business Owner Account."

 

Not to mention the Yelp extortion lawsuit that is pending right now.  http://blogs.vocalo.org/dolinsky/2010/02/attn-chicago-restaurants-yelp-accused-in-extortion-lawsuit/16305

 

Anything else you'd like to disagree about?

 

 

Considering we have agreements with the above, some of the information you posted is dated. We do due diligence on any company we partner with.

 

Opentable makes restaurants pay a fee?  Its the owner that makes the decision to use opentable.  Correct?  That is a business decision that owners.  Secondly there is no referal fee.  That fee is up front an apart of each restaurants contract.

     

Per Seated Diner Fee

• $1.00 from when a diner books on OpenTable website

  
  

• $0.25 from when a diner books restaurant website (affiliate program)

  
  

• $7.50 from when a diner books promotional listings (third party like zagat, etc.)

  
   
  The Monthly sub is $270 plus what they pay in the above dining fees.  Those dining fee help pay for marketing, brand management, web/mobile apps, etc.
   
  Yelp, the information you posted is a) dated and those paid reviewers are b) community manager that manage the people in their area and write reviews.  That is a full time marketing job.
   
  That job is the "Mayor" of that city.  Does event planning, marketing.  They are not being paid by yelp to write positive or negative reviews on behalf of Yelp. That person is like UO admins. 
   
  Right now Cinci has an open position for Community Manager.  Someone like randy would be an excellent candidate for that position.
   
  Those jobs require a degree and some sort of PR or Marketing background.
   
  In regard to the fake reviews, they can be found on any site, but they have a secret program that scours posting for fake or vengeful (I had the worst meal, hotel stay, car rent) rant/reviews.  Haven't we had those types of posters here.  Our admins never shut them down.  Its pretty much the same at Yelp.
   
  Trust, If these business were about BS.  The legal folks would know and I would have anything to do with them.

  
  

Late night, it is pretty empty except for the occasional person waiting for the bus.

 

Which is not exactly a good thing for an area with a fair amount of reported crime.

 

Again, I am not saying that I consider the Harp to necessarily be in a bad neighborhood. I just find it surprising that everyone assumes Grovewood is in a bad neighborhood but assumes that it's fine around the Harp. There is a definite westside bias around here.

 

The stretch around the Harp has little to no reported crime.

 

I've never heard of the Greenwood Tavern, so I don't really have any thoughts about it. I always assumed the the southern portion of Collinwood was the rough area.

"Grovewood" Tavern, not Greenwood.  It is on Grovewood Ave. which is just east of the Waterloo district and north of the highway.  What exactly constitutes "South Collinwood" has always confused me.  South of the highway is on the rougher side I would say.  Not sure about the crime, but the housing stock is definitely more worn down and mixed in with industrial areas.  North of the highway is much nicer IMO.  You have the new elementary school (which might be the nicest school building in the whole city), the park, establishments such as the Beachland and Grovewood, as well as E. 185 St. and all the shops/bars/restaraunts that line that strip.  There are large residential neighborhoods on both sides of E. 185.  However, I know to some people, "North Collinwood" only refers to those couple hundred feet north of Lakeshore Blvd. with everything south of that being "South Collinwood"

i've been to the beachland a bazillion times, never once did i feel unsafe. i, however, am a 6'3" male. even so, i've never been asked for money by bums over there, which has happened in to me in southeast lakewood.

In Columbus, I drove by Yellow Brick Pizza the other day, amid boarded-up Section 8 rowhouses on Oak Street on the Near East Side. I hear it's good pizza and a great beer selection. I plan to try it.

 

 

In parts of the near east side I was familiar with years ago, it was actually a nice neighborhood. I hope its not all turning to crap. Some of the nicest houses and architecture were around there.

Where do I spend $$ in "bad" neighborhoods?

 

-the McDonald's on Clark Ave/Fulton has the best indoor playground in the region. Whenever I need a little extra help with the kids and lunch, that's where we go.

 

-Eden Refinishing in Slavic Village is the best place in the City to have your wooden furniture refinished and repaired.

 

 

Well I do not like to go but sometimes I have to go Crocker Park to get some wines I like from Trader Joes. Another place I liked was this Jamaican market south of buckeye on e116 I think. I don't anymore because I am not in the area and I got treated like a cop or alien when I went there.

Hm...well I think most people would consider my neighborhood in LA "bad", so I guess I spend money in a bad neighborhood all the time lol.

 

What neighborhood?

 

Near USC.  University Park/West Adams/Figeueroa Corridor/whatever they're calling it today.

I spent a month on West Adams one day.  Horrible traffic around there.

^Horrible traffic is the norm everywhere in LA...my neighborhood is hardly unique in that regard.  It's not the best of neighborhoods, but I can walk to a ton of restaurants, 2 grocery stores, some bars, and downtown is just a short ($.25) bus ride away.  Although it looks bad, and looks auto dependent, it's actually surprisingly walkable.

That's what I was thinking - where in LA is there NOT horrible traffic?