One of the two new places going on W. 9th:

 

Fortress brings upscale clubbing to Warehouse District

By John Petkovic, The Plain Dealer

June 02, 2010, 5:51PM

 

The crowd inspired Zdenko Zovkic. Creating a niche within it made him a success.

 

In 2003, Zovkic, 40, opened XO Prime Steaks, the upscale restaurant at 500 W. St. Clair Ave. in the Warehouse District. Rather than chasing the masses, Zovkic targeted a select set looking for a place where shorts and flip-flops were a no-go amid the fine dining and white tablecloths.

 

Zovkic has just opened Fortress --1360 West Ninth St. -- with noted party promoter Arnold Hines. And, like XO, it runs counter to trends in the Warehouse District.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/dining/index.ssf/2010/06/fortress_brings_upscale_clubbi.html

 

I can see your point, but I personally don't care what people look like, and I don't like being denied entry because of what I look like.  Neither does Chris Jennings!

That's fine, I don't necessarily care either, but the fact hardly anyone sees it ever appropriate to dress up anymore, says  a lot about dwindling standards or self respect. Exercising decent hygiene and a bit better dress, when certainly appropriate, rather than being a dag all the time is not about vanity, but self respect. Geez.. Even indigenous people's had a concept of this. It would be nice for people to come to Cleveland and say "Wow..Clevelanders look like a sharp, healthy people!".... Again, in this department, things have gone too much one way, in the race to the bottom. Its clear when visiting other places then returning here. If the place calls for a more respectful, dapper attire.....and if someone is not up to it, then they can always spend the night at McDonald's. In other words, you don't dress McDonald's and then go to black tie-like venue for lack of a better way to put it. You don't have to be able to afford Botany 500 to do this. How about supporting the nice Men's clothing stores right downtown!

I tried to support them... way out of my league.  One day.  Lord knows I need custom tailoring to get around this paunch.  And what am I doing about that?  I'm eating a fantastic donut from Lucy's Sweet Surrender.  It's got real berries in it, not just goo!

 

WHD should have a place for everyone.  It could stand to swing toward classy a bit, no doubt. 

That's all I'm saying.. The WD has become too "barish" or "Flats-ish" when in the past, there was a definitive line between the two.  It used to be a more classy place, and mixed with the Flats scene....you had that nice mix. But, I would not want to see the WD end up like the climax that was The Flats. I really think the new Aquarium will ad a tremendous dimension to downtown.

 

Lucy's is GREAT! Love that place!

I'll believe it's a classy joint when I see it.  Usually, the more upscale a club pretends to be up front, the quicker it becomes a hangout for sleazy trash, but in nice clothes.

The Warehouse District is very different from the old Flats.  The WD is a neighborhood.  Thousands of people live there, myself included.  It will not become the Wild West atmosphere of the old Flats. 

Agreed, completely uncomparable.

That's all I'm saying.. The WD has become too "barish" or "Flats-ish" when in the past, there was a definitive line between the two. It used to be a more classy place, and mixed with the Flats scene....you had that nice mix. But, I would not want to see the WD end up like the climax that was The Flats. I really think the new Aquarium will ad a tremendous dimension to downtown.

 

Directions: Pick out the sentence that does not go with the rest of the paragraph.

 

 

(Editor's request: EC, if you have some interesting news about the aquarium effort then please share :-)  )

Has anyone heard any details on the property on 1293 West 9th Street? I just saw it in the Board of Zoning Appeals. May need to wait til June 21st. Thanks!!

 

It's going to be run be the same people behind "Lucic's" on the East Bank of the Flats at 1204 Old River Rd.  (it used to be Scripts, The Jungle, Kaos, etc...)  It will probably be very similar to Anatomy in its vibe...  (for better or for worse)

 

The space on West 9th is currently the Lakeland Employment office, so I guess a restaurant/nightclub/lounge will be a step up.  Still, I really don't want the Warehouse District to take the same route the Flats took...

 

I dont understand why people say that?  The Flats and the Warehouse District are two different things.  The WHD is an actually neighborhood where as the Flats was an entertainment district.

 

So I'll ask - What makes you think the WHD could potentially take the same route the Flats took?

^exactly.  the two really are uncomparable in almost every way.

Its just about the types of places.  The cheap/cheesy/rowdy college drinking type of place which characterized the flats.  The Warehouse District was the grown-up area.  They just mean that the WHD has taken on many of the "flats type" of establishments.         

Its just about the types of places.  The cheap/cheesy/rowdy college drinking type of place which characterized the flats.  The Warehouse District was the grown-up area.  They just mean that the WHD has taken on many of the "flats type" of establishments.         

 

Many? Please tell me what establishments mirror or are similar to those that were in the Flats?

There are a couple but it still is completely uncomparable.  When I think "flats" I think of places like the basement, bar cleveland, and have a nice day cafe.  Outside of watermark, the "restaurants" were places like hooters, and dick's last resort.  The flats was by and large a place where people went to get as drunk as humanly possible.  There was no "neighborhood" it was strictly partly, maybe fight or hook up, leave.

 

Certainly places like Tequila Ranch and Velvet Dog are a little "flatsesque".  But when you have a cluster of bars and nightclubs you are going to have such places in any entertainment district in any city.  But the warehouse district also has thousands of residents, tons of great restaurants ranging from more casual spots like naughty mermaid, to fine dining in places like xo, blue point, and johnny's... and a lot in between.  It also has a grocer, dry cleaner, office workers.  And places like "anatomy" and this new place even though they aren't my scene, are hardly "flats".

Its just about the types of places.  The cheap/cheesy/rowdy college drinking type of place which characterized the flats.  The Warehouse District was the grown-up area.  They just mean that the WHD has taken on many of the "flats type" of establishments.         

 

Many? Please tell me what establishments mirror or are similar to those that were in the Flats?

 

I didnt realize there was any debate about the shifting of the types of establishments compared to what it used to be and what it has more-so become (diversified).

 

Read any article about the Warehouse District and it alludes to that (including the most recent of the new place thats going in "The Warehouse District has gotten more casual and places appeal more to kids," says Zovkic. "Arnold and I are looking to attract a more mature, sophisticated crowd trying to get away from the crowds.").

Or talk to anybody that has known the Warehouse District from the beginning (and has found new grown up areas/dont want to be around drunken teenagers) and yeah there were quit a number of places that would have been flats places that came in, such as Bar flyy, Tramp etc. (to pick up on the market of young beer drinkers looking for chicks), as the WHD at the same time became less exclusive as other areas of the city became more exclusive (restaurants and clubs).  Many that lived there that didnt like the newer less grown up atmosphere have moved out.   

 

Talking to many of the business owners over the years in the WHD, the majority have said that they have been hurt by the new "entertainment districts" in Cleveland, and have had to shift their marketing towards a younger crowd (cheap drinks) which is basically the former flats market.       

 

The good thing is that some have also closed, and it has remained pretty diverse.  I dont know that anybody was saying that the WHD is the same and will suffer the same fate, but I think for a while people were concerned that the establishments would eventually become nothing but ones that cater to that crowd, thus making living there less desireable etc.......

I think you guys are both right in a way.  The WHD as a whole is of course really different from the Flats because it is a residential neighborhood, and I don't think that anyone thinks it's going to fall apart the way the flats did.  But the neighborhood aspect of the WHD seems almost incidental to the entertainment scene- the crowds at those bars is still overwhelmingly suburban coming in to party.  And entertainment districts do sometimes filter and then burn themselves out..with ugliness along the way.  Wouldn't surprise me at all if in 15 years, the party scene currently in the WHD is dead, but the fine dining and neighborhood amenities remains.  That wouldn't be a bad thing at all.

I think part of it is also "growing up".  I don't know about you guys but early 30's McCleveland is quite different than early 20's McCleveland in how I like to spend my going out time.  The fact is you need some drunken / young party establishments if you want to entertain and keep the young people.  The bottom line is that the WHD is diverse which offers a lot of different options, and in my opinion... that is a very good thing.  If it was all nice restaurants and upscale lounges, it wouldn't be nearly as great a place to be.  Particuarly if you are say... 22-26.

When I think "flats" I think of places like the basement, bar cleveland, and have a nice day cafe.

 

Beach Club!

I am not saying it is not ok to have such places, however....Sorry, but the 20 something crowd is not the only crowd here. So, unless we want people to remain here and stay well into their 40's and more....you need to have establishments that are also more mature..the things that separate the kiddies from the adults.

 

Either that, or you will create an atmosphere that has Cleveland being mostly transient...or a kind of a place people stop along the way in life for the short term...NOT so much where people want to MAKE a life in the longer run. Big big difference.

 

Besides, in the here and now, those in their 35 to 50 range, are spending more in the economy than 20 somethings getting drunk and puking at the end of the night. Don't discount us as over the hill.

 

We're too, an essential component of this city and economy that is too much overlooked and too ignored because of all this getting caught up in appealing to the "younger" crowd. Needs to be both and balance.

 

Maybe its a tougher sell to convince others to stay and an easier one to just throw out a bunch of booze and say... "Come and get it!!!" and then call it "hip" which is the baiting word.

 

Is anyone mentioning the fact that some of the WD is actually looking kind of crappy? (IMO)

I think part of it is also "growing up". I don't know about you guys but early 30's McCleveland is quite different than early 20's McCleveland in how I like to spend my going out time. The fact is you need some drunken / young party establishments if you want to entertain and keep the young people. The bottom line is that the WHD is diverse which offers a lot of different options, and in my opinion... that is a very good thing. If it was all nice restaurants and upscale lounges, it wouldn't be nearly as great a place to be. Particuarly if you are say... 22-26.

 

Yes- excellent point.  Offering a variety of choices is key.  Now that I'm in my mid 30s, I really couldn't imagine living in the WHD and putting up with the weekend partiers given the current slate bars and clubs, which seems quite different from 15 years ago when I first got to know the neighborhood.  But soon, with the ascendancy of the Avenue District and Uptown, there will be other good choices for me, so I'm not complaining.  Then again, if I were a longtime owner in the WHD, I suppose I might feel differently.

Many? Please tell me what establishments mirror or are similar to those that were in the Flats?

 

Suite Sixx, Tequila Ranch, Barley House, Barr Flyy, Lust (which had a hot tub on their front sidewalk a couple of weeks ago), Liquid (which also rents hot tubs sometimes), Sin...

 

Some people are concerned that there will be continued growth in unrulely people that want to hang out in these places, get wasted, get loud, start fights and scare away people that want to just have dinner and a couple of drinks.  The same thing happened in the Flats, which is why places like Longhorn and Max & Erma's pulled out...

Many? Please tell me what establishments mirror or are similar to those that were in the Flats?

 

Suite Sixx, Tequila Ranch, Barley House, Barr Flyy, Lust (which had a hot tub on their front sidewalk a couple of weeks ago), Liquid (which also rents hot tubs sometimes), Sin...

 

Some people are concerned that there will be continued growth in unrulely people that want to hang out in these places, get wasted, get loud, start fights and scare away people that want to just have dinner and a couple of drinks.  The same thing happened in the Flats, which is why places like Longhorn and Max & Erma's pulled out...

 

Thanks for the list, as I'm not a bar person. 

 

However, I doubt longhorn and Max & Ermas soley pulled out because of the things you state. There business plans most likely didn't work as M&E was late to the party IIRC.

 

I still think the WHD neighborhood is a neighborhood with an entirely different dynamic and target audience.

Are there any wharehouse buildings that are not either business occupied or reconfigued into housing? Any underutilized structures?

I am a little concerned that W. 6th street, in particular, esp btw St. Clair and Lakeside, is becoming very Flats-ish... I avoid that area like the plague on Fri/Sat nights.  When I was there, about 6 months ago, there was fighting, public drunkenness (including vomiting on the street) and all those classy things.  If you're anywhere near there, you see the CPD speeding in, lights flashing, sirens blaring... I can only imagine how this impacts the classy restaurants immediately adjacent to that area, like Blue Point and Metro...

 

I much prefer West 9th, which is much more sedate and mature, while still being lively... E.4th is also very classy, which is probably why I've been spending more time there than the WHD in recent years, esp with nearby 668 and the Zinc restaurant there...

 

Another aspect of W. 6th that is Flats-ish is that, during most any other day, esp during the daytime, its dead as a doornail... It's a totally one-note bar/party area  -- and at least, the Flats had enticing aspect of being by the water.

^ I concur.

^^ Public drunkeness, fighting and vomitting around an area saturated with bars and clubs frequented by '20 somethings'... that's a shocker.  You certainly won't find any of that in the French Quarter, South Beach, etc.

^^ Public drunkeness, fighting and vomitting around an area saturated with bars and clubs frequented by '20 somethings'... that's a shocker. You certainly won't find any of that in the French Quarter, South Beach, etc.

 

Thanks for pointing that out.  Especially the French Quarter. 

^I don't think anyone's claiming this is unique to Cleveland, just comparing to and contrasting with the Flats.  There are undeniably some similarities in offerings now, but also some key differences.  How's that for vapid consensus-building?

I think we need places like this:

 

I am a little concerned that W. 6th street, in particular, esp btw St. Clair and Lakeside, is becoming very Flats-ish... I avoid that area like the plague on Fri/Sat nights. When I was there, about 6 months ago, there was fighting, public drunkenness (including vomiting on the street) and all those classy things.

 

As well as places like these:

 

I much prefer West 9th, which is much more sedate and mature, while still being lively... E.4th is also very classy, which is probably why I've been spending more time there than the WHD in recent years, esp with nearby 668 and the Zinc restaurant there...

 

Obviously the violent jackassery needs to be held in check, but based on the comparisons noted above, there's an extent to which you can't have a world famous entertainment district without letting people cut loose.  I think it was possible, and in hindsight desirable, to make an effort to maintain what we had in the Flats.  A bit more police presence, a bit more support for existing businesses there and for the overall concept.

 

Instead, the city got set on "cleaning it up" and doomed it.  The geography of the Flats made it an ideal place to have our wild & crazy entertainment district.  West 6th, being more centralized and more residential, isn't quite as appropriate.  I see this as a huge misstep, one that we can't really correct at this point. 

 

One of my core theories of urban development is that you can't just put whatever whereever.  Certain locations are often better for certain uses.  Other uses, not so much.  The Flats is physically isolated and could supplement downtown and Ohio city without intruding on either of them.  That made it a great setting for a high-energy party district.  There are lots of places equally suited for a FEB-type development, upscale and sedate, but few suited to replace the 80s-90s Flats.

Quite right, 327.  And let me reemphasize: the Flats didn't wither and die, it was slowly smothered, a purchase and a parcel at a time, so that the land could be cleared for the FEB development.  The same thing would happen to the WD if a developer and the City decided that they would rather have a new neighborhood of new high rises instead of the existing infrastructure and buildings.

...a developer and the City decided that they would rather have a new neighborhood of new high rises instead of the existing infrastructure and buildings.

 

I'm all for new high rises... but it's not as if we lack other places to build those.  There was never any need to wreck an already revitalized historic district.  One step forward, two steps back.  This is how Cleveland ends up not getting anywhere, despite the fact that development and investment are in fact taking place. 

 

Instead of building on our countless empty lots, we always want to tear up what we already have.  Instead of tying things together and gaining some synergy and momentum, we're always trying to reinvent the wheel.  What's best for individual developers, and individual neighborhoods, is often damaging to the city as a whole.  In the end, all that missed opportunity hurts those developers and those neighborhoods as much as anyone else, because the city continues to stagnate.  We need a more coherent plan.

I'm coming into this thread exceedingly late, but I do feel the need to comment.

 

I am not saying it is not ok to have such places, however....Sorry, but the 20 something crowd is not the only crowd here. So, unless we want people to remain here and stay well into their 40's and more....you need to have establishments that are also more mature..the things that separate the kiddies from the adults.

 

As a jaded 20-something, I resent this statement a bit.  Cleveland was *built* for people in their 30s and over--that is, for family life.  The disproportionate amount of communities of single-family houses, as well as our collection of world-class museums and cultural institutions make this plainly obvious. What this city sorely lacks in comparison to its peers is the community that the youthful demand: walkable urban neighborhoods with constant street life.  We are young. We need to meet people. (Aside: I don't mean to claim that the older crowds don't also desire this, but most of them tend to have a more settled social circle than 20-somethings, especially when they start a family.)

 

What we’re looking for is constant social contact and interaction with our peers, something that being shut up in our cars or single-family houses cannot provide. Since there is so little of the walkable, lively neighborhood in Cleveland, it becomes much more difficult to interact with our peers. So we pick the next best thing: we go to the bars.

 

Since most patrons of WD bars travel by car to get there, the demand for bars nearby increases, thus forcing the concentration of the entertainment district.  To forcibly destroy this “scene” would really be a blow to the youth of this city who already have a very difficult time cultivating their social circles.  Yes, there is drunkenness, rowdiness, etc., but this kind of behavior will persist wherever there are bars–it only becomes visible when so many bars are concentrated in one area.  And this concentration must persist as long as downtown remains mostly devoid of safety-promoting small retail establishments at the street level *throughout* downtown, not just in carefully cordoned areas.

Excellent post ccars.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/09/naacp_city_council_members_cal.html

 

 

 

 

NAACP, city council members call on mayor to find solutions in Warehouse District

 

"CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Black civic leaders said this morning they want Mayor Frank Jackson to take a more assertive role in the Warehouse District controversy and to lead the city toward solutions. "

 

 

Even though I don't care for the organization, I have to give the NAACP credit for  pushing for discourse on this topic before patrons, area residents and area business owners say enough is enough and abandon the stret.  Reed and Patmon are right - something needs to be done and soon - though their concerns only address some of the problems, mostly the racial aspects and they're not being completely genuine.  But at least they're talking, which is more than I can say for Frank.

 

Our mayor does appear detached on the subject of public safety on one of downtown Cleveland's few nightlife areas, and some grandstanding is important.  For instance, if there were some major problems in the Rush/Division area, the Vegas Strip, or my old stomping grounds at Federal Hill, Baltimore, then I have to imagine the cities' respective mayors would have more a presence in the discussion.  Press conferences, radio addresses, television or print interviews - anything to get the point across that the city's leader is aware of the issues and is making real, proactive attempts to initiate change.  Remember Michael White's battle for the Browns.

 

I think the reason W6 going downhill is so alarming is that it shows that maybe Cleveland cannot handle nightlife.  Among other reasons, the criminal element and an anything-goes atmosphere in the Flats contributed to the area's decline.  Now there are some parallels W6's recent issues.  And if W6 can tumble, then why not W9 or E4 eventually?  Where does it stop. 

 

One brief anecdote: my girlfriend went on some bachelorette party last week starting at Barley House and moving all over.  Around 1:30am, when the girls were drunkenly getting on the party, some underage mutants were catcalling them.  And not just cute flirting, but things involving the c-word that do not bear repeating.  The girls were too drunk to really care; me, I would have flipped out and broken someone's neck if I had been there!  Well, maybe.  The point is, the area is changing for the worse (this kind of conduct would have never been accepted a few years ago), and if we lose W6, then there's no reason other trendy neighborhoods can't suffer similar fates.

 

You would have broken someones neck?  Aren't you the same person that was rolled up on while at a light?

One brief anecdote: my girlfriend went on some bachelorette party last week starting at Barley House and moving all over.  Around 1:30am, when the girls were drunkenly getting on the party, some underage mutants were catcalling them.  And not just cute flirting, but things involving the c-word that do not bear repeating.  The girls were too drunk to really care; me, I would have flipped out and broken someone's neck if I had been there!  Well, maybe.  The point is, the area is changing for the worse (this kind of conduct would have never been accepted a few years ago), and if we lose W6, then there's no reason other trendy neighborhoods can't suffer similar fates.

 

 

I've heard many similar stories from friends about their experience at the WHD this summer.  It seems there's a large crowd that just shows up starting around 12:30/1 for no other reason than to just mill around and it's causing all kinds of problems.  And it escalates as people are trying to leave and bar staff are trying to get people to get out as there are mobs of people in the way, some coming from insude bars/clubs and some just coming from around town to do...who knows what.

 

Not sure what the solution is...closing the street to traffic from Lakeside to St Clair I think would be a start.

Solution is simple.  No loitering.  Either you're in line for the bar/club or you're just hanging out.  If you want to hang out, go somewhere else & get off the sidewalk.  If you're in line for the bar/club, better be old enough to get inside & have $$$ for a cover charge.

 

The amount of media coverage this recent story about the two "Morehouse College" students is getting is RIDICULOUS.  Who cares where they went to college?  If they were a couple white kids who went to Kent or BG and they got their ass pummelled by the bouncers, would it be a story?  NO!  Stupid media trying to create a story where there isn't. 

 

Were the bouncers too quick to bust them up, most definitely.  But as the story stands, they were told to leave & clear out and instead they chose to stand & argue.  I've been in the club enough times at closing to know you don't argue with the security staff.  But because they were black college kids (like that automatically adds credibility to their side of the story) and the cops were white, we got a problem now??!!!  Puhlease!!! 

 

Where's the outrage at the two white guys from out of town who were BEATEN so bad they were KNOCKED UNCONSCIOUS & ROBBED while coming out of the West Bank flats???  Total non-story.  The warehouse district will continue to decline as long as all this nonsense goes on.  It can all become hip hop clubs for all I care.  Plenty of new fun safe spots to go out in other parts of the city like E. 4th, Tremont, Ohio City, etc.

More evidence for those of you that didnt think the Warehouse district, could see the same fate the flats did. 

 

Even though it doesnt totally parallel, it is following the same type of cycle, which seems to happen when you just have neighborhoods that shift around like Cleveland's do. 

 

Another good point about the mayor, he so needs to be more engaged in things like this (but we already know that from Tedolf) 

 

Also good point gottaplan, I couldnt understand the constant references to "Morehouse graduates" and why it mattered so much.  Just enough to add another layer to that argument I guess.  Yes when will we see similar outrage with all these senseless black on white crimes?

 

There may be a deeper issue here. It just seems like the racial undertones have increased over the last year. Again, this is just my opinion, but it feels like this is becoming a problem in a lot of places. I know St. Louis is dealing with similar problems. I have a couple friends from Buffalo who have told me there have been incidents. My wife was in the Arena District with some girlfriends a couple weeks ago and two punks dropped the n-word on her (thank God I wasn't there). I hope the Mayor gets on top of this before this becomes too big to handle.

I have an idea..since the flats (where a lot of nice people like to try to work and live) is the  dumping ground for rowdy business -why not move it ALL icky w.6th places to the west bank of the flats? we can get a special condo assessment for sound proofing. I am stunned cimperman and jackson have not thought of this yet in one of their phoney press conference city planning moments...thee with their "entertainment district" ideas of clumping strip joints in a residential neighborhood.  :-P

Somebody needs to take Forbes out of the equation here.  He is not helping.  At the very least, the NAACP needs to acknowledge that the bouncers and police have, indeed, been challenged this summer.  Personally, I think we need to close off the street to those who are not old enough to patronize the establishments.  Try that first and see if it works.  Nothing will ever make violence in the WHD go away, but not having the teenagers loitering could only help ease the growing tension.

 

Where's the outrage at the two white guys from out of town who were BEATEN so bad they were KNOCKED UNCONSCIOUS & ROBBED while coming out of the West Bank flats???  

 

Actually.... there was media coverage to this event which occured basically in the projects.  In fact, despite the fact that police reports showed multiple assaults in those projects within the surrounding weeks, the beating of these white kids was the only one reported by the Plain Dealer.

 

An inner-city kid gets shot, stabbed, beat, whatever... it is a non-story... barely mentioned.  Suburban white kids get shot, stabbed, beat while in the City and we get the type of coverage which was given to the Perk Park shootings.

 

Plus, as for the OUTRAGE you seek, the "Morehouse College" grads were allegedly beaten by off-duty police officers, while the white kids who "got lost" were beaten by thugs.  Much different situation. 

 

As for the "Morehouse College" references, I imagine that might be a pre-emptive strike on all those cleveland.bomb commentors who would have went on rants and labeled this incident as off duty police vs. a couple "thugs" simply because the alleged victims were black.  Be honest with yourself, if you were to hear of an off-duty cop getting into an altercation with two young black males on West 6th, what would you assume?... that it was two bank executives and recent grads of a highly respected college, or two local thugs? 

Maybe this is just me being nit-picky, but I can't stand it that they refer to these kids as "young, black executives".  First of all, they aren't executives.  No where close in fact.  They are in a damn banker training program, but they throw around "young, black executive" to add credibility to their story.

 

Everything I've heard about this story indicates that the kids were in the wrong, the off-duty cop over reacted, and the local NAACP is using these kids to push their agenda.  George Forbes daughter picked them up from jail... if that doesn't raise any red flags then I'm not sure what will.  Now that the light is shining on the WHD all the bugs will come out with their stories of discrimination and police violence. 

 

This is extremely frustrating because these stories hurt the perception of my neighborhood and there's nothing I can do about it.  So these kids wouldn't leave a club and got roughed around a little by the bouncer / off-duty police officer.  BIG DEAL!  This happens every weekend to kids in the WHD that are drunk and have a superiority complex (which I've heard at least one of the two does have).  It's like when that Harvard Professor got arrested in his own home.  Both the professor and cop made some poor decisions.  If they both would have owned up to them it would have been a non-story!  If the kids apologize for being assholes and the cop apologizes for punching him in the face can we put this story to bed?

[heh, finally decided to stop lurking and actually sign up]

 

Somebody needs to take Forbes out of the equation here.  He is not helping.  At the very least, the NAACP needs to acknowledge that the bouncers and police have, indeed, been challenged this summer.  Personally, I think we need to close off the street to those who are not old enough to patronize the establishments.  Try that first and see if it works.  Nothing will ever make violence in the WHD go away, but not having the teenagers loitering could only help ease the growing tension.

 

Where's the outrage at the two white guys from out of town who were BEATEN so bad they were KNOCKED UNCONSCIOUS & ROBBED while coming out of the West Bank flats??? 

 

Actually.... there was media coverage to this event which occured basically in the projects.  In fact, despite the fact that police reports showed multiple assaults in those projects within the surrounding weeks, the beating of these white kids was the only one reported by the Plain Dealer.

 

An inner-city kid gets shot, stabbed, beat, whatever... it is a non-story... barely mentioned.  Suburban white kids get shot, stabbed, beat while in the City and we get the type of coverage which was given to the Perk Park shootings.

 

Plus, as for the OUTRAGE you seek, the "Morehouse College" grads were allegedly beaten by off-duty police officers, while the white kids who "got lost" were beaten by thugs.  Much different situation. 

 

As for the "Morehouse College" references, I imagine that might be a pre-emptive strike on all those cleveland.bomb commentors who would have went on rants and labeled this incident as off duty police vs. a couple "thugs" simply because the alleged victims were black.  Be honest with yourself, if you were to hear of an off-duty cop getting into an altercation with two young black males on West 6th, what would you assume?... that it was two bank executives and recent grads of a highly respected college, or two local thugs? 

Closing off the street should have happened months ago, I agree. The fact that it hasn't happened yet is rather disappointing. Jackson evidently believes "cultural competency training" for the bar owners and staff will fix the problem. It won't, though. Really, I don't think the problem will be fixed until the people who inject race into every situation possible (Forbes, NAACP, etc) back off so Jackson & the city can do what is best to solve the problem and not just do whatever satisfies the black leaders.

 

I also saw you call these two black males "executives" which is actually not true. They are in a banker training program. It seems people (and the media) only focus on the "executive" part and totally ignore the "training program" part. Perhaps to make this look more like a race issue than it actually is.

 

ETA: oops, I see hootenany beat me to it.

Whatever... executives or not, the point was that they were not your garden variety 'thugs' as so many would have presumed if not otherwise stated.  For the purposes of any point I (not Forbes/NAACP/PD) was making, it doesn't matter if they were executives or secretaries. 

 

I agree though that this SHOULD be a non-story.  My point was that we unnecessarily emphasize 'white victim' stories as much as we do 'black victim' stories.  The PD just runs with it when it sounds juicy.  Two suburban white kids get beat up in a location where 10 minorities were assaulted in the past week alone.... the PD will run with it.  Two black kids get beat up by a white off duty police officer in an area where the NAACP and others have already played the race card yet white kids get roughed up by bouncers too.... the PD will run with it.   

Whatever... executives or not, the point was that they were not your garden variety 'thugs' as so many would have presumed if not otherwise stated. For the purposes of any point I (not Forbes/NAACP/PD) was making, it doesn't matter if they were executives or secretaries.  

Perhaps you and I have a different definition of the word thug?

 

From what I see, the "thug" lifestyle is rather expensive; Cadillac Escalades with custom 24 inch rims, a gigantic sound system, gauche jewelery, overpriced sunglasses at night, and hundred dollar custom jeans aren't cheap.

 

Sure there are plenty of "poor thugs" but there are plenty who come home from work at their respectable job and take off the necktie and put on the alarm clock necklace. From my experience, being a thug isn't about your economic standing in the world its about being the guy in control. Not all that different from people who glorify the mafia lifestyle in my opinion.

 

Look at the NBA. I would classify most NBA stars as thugs with a little bit more money on average.

 

 

Yeah... we have a different definition.  Absolutely.  To me, thugs are defined by their actions, not how they dress or what car they drive.  But by your definition, I guess all the Italian cast members on Jersey shore are thugs. 

 

But I wasn't saying that thugs have to be poor.... I was just suggesting how most cleveland.com posters view thugs.  Not myself.

Unless the NAACP and Forbes has some evidence beyond the security cameras, I would say an apology is in order for this off-duty police officer:

 

Police say race not issue in 2 men's Warehouse District arrest, much of which is on video

 

It shows the two young men and their friends at the exit of a busy club at closing time, smiling and talking with young ladies. Bouncers can be seen approaching the pair and their friends several times and pointing the way out, as a racially mixed crowd streams past.

 

The bar video shows no physical contact between the men and security guards inside the club and no apparent verbal confrontation, either. Outside, an altercation ensues.

 

A camera posted above West Sixth Street catches both Ruiz and Parilla stepping backward out of the club, followed by Officer Anthony Sauto, who motions them to keep moving.

 

In his police report, Sauto said Ruiz and Parilla defied a bouncer and that he helped to escort them out.

 

There is no physical contact, but Ruiz and Parilla are clearly shouting at Sauto, who is in uniform, and jabbing fingers toward his face.

 

An enhanced version of the video, viewed by The Plain Dealer, shows Ruiz at one point grabbing Sauto's arm and the police officer pushing his hand away.

 

Moments later, Ruiz appears to push Sauto, who falls back, momentarily off balance. That's when a security guard grabs Ruiz from behind, pinning his arms.

 

The police officer and the security guard move both Ruiz and Parilla toward a street lined with parked cars.

 

In an earlier interview, Ruiz said the officer threw him down on the hood of a car and punched him several times in the face.

 

In his police report, Sauto said Ruiz was resisting arrest and he struck him in the face to subdue him.

 

The video shows a struggle ensuing for several minutes, but distance and passersby on West Sixth mar the view.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/09/police_say_race_not_an_issue_i.html

 

Depending on what occured when out of view of the cameras, there may be a use of force issue, but alleging racial animus appears to be nothing more than speculation on the NAACP's part.  If I was working on this case with the City, I would also be investigating Forbes and his daughter for any subterfuge.

Unless the NAACP and Forbes has some evidence beyond the security cameras, I would say an apology is in order for this off-duty police officer:

 

Police say race not issue in 2 men's Warehouse District arrest, much of which is on video

 

It shows the two young men and their friends at the exit of a busy club at closing time, smiling and talking with young ladies. Bouncers can be seen approaching the pair and their friends several times and pointing the way out, as a racially mixed crowd streams past.

 

The bar video shows no physical contact between the men and security guards inside the club and no apparent verbal confrontation, either. Outside, an altercation ensues.

 

A camera posted above West Sixth Street catches both Ruiz and Parilla stepping backward out of the club, followed by Officer Anthony Sauto, who motions them to keep moving.

 

In his police report, Sauto said Ruiz and Parilla defied a bouncer and that he helped to escort them out.

 

There is no physical contact, but Ruiz and Parilla are clearly shouting at Sauto, who is in uniform, and jabbing fingers toward his face.

 

An enhanced version of the video, viewed by The Plain Dealer, shows Ruiz at one point grabbing Sauto's arm and the police officer pushing his hand away.

 

Moments later, Ruiz appears to push Sauto, who falls back, momentarily off balance. That's when a security guard grabs Ruiz from behind, pinning his arms.

 

The police officer and the security guard move both Ruiz and Parilla toward a street lined with parked cars.

 

In an earlier interview, Ruiz said the officer threw him down on the hood of a car and punched him several times in the face.

 

In his police report, Sauto said Ruiz was resisting arrest and he struck him in the face to subdue him.

 

The video shows a struggle ensuing for several minutes, but distance and passersby on West Sixth mar the view.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/09/police_say_race_not_an_issue_i.html

 

Depending on what occured when out of view of the cameras, there may be a use of force issue, but alleging racial animus appears to be nothing more than speculation on the NAACP's part. If I was working on this case with the City, I would also be investigating Forbes and his daughter for any subterfuge.

 

that's great. Forbes and the NAACP have been bringing race into

way to many things recently. Hopefully this will make them stop and actually get details before running their mouths

Unless the NAACP and Forbes has some evidence beyond the security cameras, I would say an apology is in order for this off-duty police officer:

 

Police say race not issue in 2 men's Warehouse District arrest, much of which is on video

 

It shows the two young men and their friends at the exit of a busy club at closing time, smiling and talking with young ladies. Bouncers can be seen approaching the pair and their friends several times and pointing the way out, as a racially mixed crowd streams past.

 

The bar video shows no physical contact between the men and security guards inside the club and no apparent verbal confrontation, either. Outside, an altercation ensues.

 

A camera posted above West Sixth Street catches both Ruiz and Parilla stepping backward out of the club, followed by Officer Anthony Sauto, who motions them to keep moving.

 

In his police report, Sauto said Ruiz and Parilla defied a bouncer and that he helped to escort them out.

 

There is no physical contact, but Ruiz and Parilla are clearly shouting at Sauto, who is in uniform, and jabbing fingers toward his face.

 

An enhanced version of the video, viewed by The Plain Dealer, shows Ruiz at one point grabbing Sauto's arm and the police officer pushing his hand away.

 

Moments later, Ruiz appears to push Sauto, who falls back, momentarily off balance. That's when a security guard grabs Ruiz from behind, pinning his arms.

 

The police officer and the security guard move both Ruiz and Parilla toward a street lined with parked cars.

 

In an earlier interview, Ruiz said the officer threw him down on the hood of a car and punched him several times in the face.

 

In his police report, Sauto said Ruiz was resisting arrest and he struck him in the face to subdue him.

 

The video shows a struggle ensuing for several minutes, but distance and passersby on West Sixth mar the view.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/09/police_say_race_not_an_issue_i.html

 

Depending on what occured when out of view of the cameras, there may be a use of force issue, but alleging racial animus appears to be nothing more than speculation on the NAACP's part. If I was working on this case with the City, I would also be investigating Forbes and his daughter for any subterfuge.

 

that's great. Forbes and the NAACP have been bringing race into

way to many things recently. Hopefully this will make them stop and actually get details before running their mouths

 

You  would think, but yet it wont, they will just grasp at even more ridiculous and unrelated situations.

Just FYI I was at Metro Bar/Grill on Saturday night and W6 was blocked from St. Clair to Lakeside by police cruisers from oncoming vehicular traffic. I watched for at least two hours as the police made cars driving up W6 turn left onto St. Clair and not let them drive through. Seems like the mayor reads these boards:)

 

Also, I do think the PD makes a big mess out of nothing. You add drinking and 20 year old men and women and a punch or two thrown a night is no big deal.