When the drownings and the fights took place in the Flats, the music playing was the Rock and/or Roll, but nobody made that an issue, EC.

 

Despite what people on opposite sides of the issue want to claim, this should have nothing to do with race and everything to do with underage loitering and, dare I say, media coverage. I don't know if the problem has gone away because of the onset of autumn, or if this is just a passing phenomenon that won't even show up next year, but the amount of coverage is out of proportion with the problem.

I disagree that the coverage has inflated the problem or make it seem like it's worse than it really is.  These underage kids are obnoxious and rude to the point of their being harassment.

 

The people in the clubs are okay.  For example, I went to Fortress (I think that's the name) on  Saturday.  The first floor was mostly Latino and European dancing to salsa.  The second floor was hiphop, maybe 90% black.  I hung out in both parts with my girl and there were 0.0 tensions on both floors.

 

We left and walked by St. Clair to W3 where I parked.  Walking by a large parking lot of W6/st cl, we saw a large group of teens hanging out and yelling at passerbys.  Not innocent catcalls, but truly ugly stuff.  I think I was more pissed off at the parking attendant, and by extension owner, than these kids as clearly they were just tailgating and loitering without anyone telling them to leave.

 

The kids were ugly enough to put a slight damper on the night.  They have got to go

 

^I think everyone agrees on that.  The question then becomes how can we legally do so.  We should be able to determine our options without much difficulty or allow a court to do so.  The tougher and more sensitive issue will arise when we are aware of the legal options and then start making policy decisions as far as what options to exercise and how.

I was out in the WHD on Friday and Saturday night and I just want to comment on my experience. Friday night we hung out at the outdoor bar at Metro until about 12:30. There weren't a lot of people out at all and it was a really quiet night. At least up until we left at 12:30.

 

Saturday night we were out from 11 until closing and had a really good time. Police presence has been noticeably increased since our last late night visit with police cruisers parked down the center of the street. The street was also blocked off to all vehicle traffic. When we left to go home there was a large group of young, black kids hanging out across the street from Lust which has become the norm this summer. There was also a large contingent of CPD officers nearby seemingly keeping order... mostly just chatting about the Browns though. We walked right through the crowd of young folks and had absolutely no issues. One of the young guys actually gave me a little "hello" head nod. Most of them were way too interested with who was coming out of Lust to worry about my fiance and I walking by them. They seemed much more calm and curious than anything. I never got the feeling that any of them were out "looking for a fight".

 

The biggest problem we had the entire night was getting out of the way of 6 bouncers that were dragging a guy (big, white, frat-type guy if you must know) out of the Blind Pig. I've seen them handle people like that a few times and they seem to do it very well. They get them out quickly and show a lot of force by having every bouncer there come out to ensure the guy doesn't get feisty outside. And if there is further problems outside there is also a policeman there to convince him to take it easy and leave on his own or in handcuffs.

 

All-in-all this entire thing has been blown out of proportion IMO. I live in the WHD and from what I've seen all summer I can't say that I'm any less interested in hanging out on W6th. In the end I think it all boils down to people being afraid of large groups of black people. I know it's blunt, but it's my honest opinion. I don't think the amount of violence has changed. The only thing that changed is the demographics.

Thanks for the update Hoot.  I think some people would be amazed how much a confident stride can do for you in these types of situations.  Bow your head, slouch your shoulders, and cross the street.... well, you might as well put a bullseye on your back for the bullies/thugs.

 

 

 

Anyway, this is appearing in the PD again, with focus on the affect this is having on residents and businesses in the area.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/09/as_the_warehouse_district_roar.html

 

 

 

After reading just the first few sentences of this PD story i have 2 words of advice for Tom Culkar: Don't bother.

 

 

^That attitude will doom the WHD a lot faster than binge drinking Frat boys and loitering teens ever will. 

 

As pro-Clevleand as I am and as much as it pains me to say it, yes, it is a realistic thing to say.

I can't see it being a winner idea financially.

 

If this expansion is such a great idea then Crop Restaurant should also be pursued not to leave the District next month (obviuosly that's not going to happen).

 

As Joe Carey said in one of the first stories featuring the problems of W. 6th, (I'm paraphrasing)... this area has changed from a restaurant venue to a nightclub venue...

 

I don't necessarily agree with that. But enough people do, such that it affects the restaurants' bottom lines.

Hopefully this mindset can be switched around again or else this "nightclub venue" will be unsustainable.

 

 

Hmmmmm... I think there is room for both.  IMO, WHD restaraunts have more to fear from the continued expansion of E 4th than they do from the continued operation of dance clubs in the WHD.

 

^That attitude will doom the WHD a lot faster than binge drinking Frat boys and loitering teens ever will. 

 

For the record my comment was not out of line.

A lousy attitude is Joe Carey's unilateral decree that the restaurant scene was over and done with...essentially telling restaurant owners 'don't bother'.

In fact that could be considered the first salvo in Carey's ostensible little war with Hospitality Restaurants, Inc., Hyde Park Restaurant Group, Joe Santosuosso, Tom Culkar, etc. etc. (i.e. top-notch restaurant operators in the District) and then who knows who else.

BTW these guys can hold their own with E. 4th/Lower Euclid.

 

Nevertheless, as long as the WHD is considered a weekend party destination (as it has been now for a while), it's anybody's guess what it will be like in 3 or 4 years.

 

E. 4th did steal some thunder from W. 6th. If the restaurant scene can hold on for 3 more years a new convention center and casino will bring in more diners, and let the restaurants flourish.

 

3 years is a long time, however. 

Why should any stock be put into Carey's opinion? He tried to open a restaurant and failed, so bitterness towards the successful restaurants in the area is not very surprising. Him saying it's now solely a nightclub scene does not mean much.  To be honest, he's lucky he's even allowed to keep his club open (and no, not because of the demographics; because of the lease issues).

 

If the current problems are solved, keeping the restaurant scene alive until the CC/MM/casino open is not at all out of the question IMO.

If this expansion is such a great idea then Crop Restaurant should also be pursued not to leave the District next month (obviuosly that's not going to happen).

 

Damn!  I was planning on having dinner at Crop during my visit to Cleveland in two weeks ("next month").  Where are they relocating to?

 

 

If this expansion is such a great idea then Crop Restaurant should also be pursued not to leave the District next month (obviuosly that's not going to happen).

 

Damn!  I was planning on having dinner at Crop during my visit to Cleveland in two weeks ("next month").  Where are they relocating to?

 

Actually, you'll be able to go to the current location. They are keeping the WHD location open through October then moving at the start of November. The new location is at West 25th & Lorain though, right across from the West Side Market.

If this expansion is such a great idea then Crop Restaurant should also be pursued not to leave the District next month (obviuosly that's not going to happen).

 

Damn!  I was planning on having dinner at Crop during my visit to Cleveland in two weeks ("next month").  Where are they relocating to?

 

Actually, you'll be able to go to the current location. They are keeping the WHD location open through October then moving at the start of November. The new location is at West 25th & Lorain though, right across from the West Side Market.

 

when i was in this week, it sounded like they will be open in the WHD until the end of the year.  they haven't started real construction in the new space yet.

 

...I think some people would be amazed how much a confident stride can do for you in these types of situations.  Bow your head, slouch your shoulders, and cross the street.... well, you might as well put a bullseye on your back for the bullies/thugs.

 

:roll:  :roll:  :roll:

 

The Warehouse District: now serving the confrontational and discriminating against the unconfident.

 

 

P.S. Help support downtown Cleveland businesses today

 

You sure do have difficulty reading things in the proper context, "Clueless"

Your context ≠ proper context    :wink:

 

P.S. Help support downtown Cleveland businesses today

I hear there was a massive brawl last Saturday at Tequila Ranch (one of the douches from Jersey Shore was djing there).  A couple dozen police cars and an ambulance showed up.

 

Anyone have any specifics?

 

what does "djing" mean?

DJing means selecting the music for the party, saying "yeah, yeah" a lot, and generally being a mindless d-bag.

 

That crossed my mind...well, a lot was crossing my mind...but the lower case letters confused me.

 

Anyway the WHD is not going to be able to sustain itself, if it stays on this trajectory it's on.

Trajectories like this usually evolve into downward spirals.

Hopefully this NOACA prioritization of funds is a sign that many different "agencies" are moving fast to keep this a neighborhood and not a has-been entertainment district.

I hear there was a massive brawl last Saturday at Tequila Ranch (one of the douches from Jersey Shore was djing there).  A couple dozen police cars and an ambulance showed up.

 

Anyone have any specifics?

 

Can't find any news coverage on it.  Maybe we should shut down the Tequila Ranch just to be safe.

Crop is staying open through the end of December. They are still waiting on final approval on their permits.

DJ-ing

Crop is staying open through the end of December. They are still waiting on final approval on their permits.

 

YAY!!!!

 

 

Can't find any news coverage on it.  Maybe we should shut down the Tequila Ranch just to be safe.

 

Wouldn't it be better to, say, get an apartment at the Hat Factory...directly above TR...and then say that?

 

Btw I do not subscribe to the notion that if you live there then you have to *take* this.

 

 

Not sure what you mean by "this".  Fights inside the club beneath you?  Dance clubs in general being in the area?  Paulie D's "DJ'ing"?

 

What was the area zoned for when you moved in?

 

But since you live directly above, why don't you fill us in on the details as TBideon requested.

 

On the general topic of this thread, I had a long talk with a Cleveland cop the other day.  He says they have been told to proceed per the department's SOPs/SOGs.  Looks like the NAACP had little influence over the administration.

It just seems to me . people want to find reasons that it should be this way or that.

Or tough put up or shut up , I blame the city for not having a more concrete

zoning code , what this area should be . This area should never be The " Flats"

the public areas could never  handle all the extra pedestrians , Unless the streets are closed to car traffic , and then it's a maybe ,

Listen all you people I partied in the flats way back like in the late 1970's OK my dad

Got me in ( Chill things were way differant then)  Many up and coming rock bands played their hearts out . Funny thing is then , do not go up St. Clair Hill

to the most "seedy " area " AND IT WAS , Years later it became The Warehouse District

I BLAME THE CITY FOR NOT HAVING BETTER ZONING CODES .

I have seen over and over to many "Clubs " ect. that should be really thought out

When 2:30 A.M. happens , No one wants to go home , but come on people the party is

over , move on.

South Beach , Florida , you better move or be forced to move on

^^Awesome Post^^ Welcome to the Cleve and this site...

It would be nice to have a few Urban Ohioans on the working groups!

 

Warehouse District welcomes new ideas to promote diversity, calm the party

Published: Tuesday, October 26, 2010, 8:00 AM    Updated: Tuesday, October 26, 2010, 10:56 AM

Robert L. Smith, The Plain Dealer

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Gail Brown once worked in the Warehouse District and she's been following news reports of its troubles. She thinks she has an idea that could cool the party and enhance the ambience.

 

The region's premier nightclub district, she said, needs a place to buy an ice cream cone.

 

"What you need are more places for families," said Brown, a Cleveland retiree. "Maybe an amusement park ride."

 

After a raucous and anxious summer, her suggestion may get a hearing. Proposals to gate West Sixth Street, to promote diversity, add a dog park and tell the teenagers to go home at 11 p.m. are going to be taken seriously, civic leaders insist.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/10/the_warehouse_district_welcome.html

Even if some of the proposals are odd IMO, I'm glad to see that they are looking into practical, realistic and, most importantly, legal solutions.

 

Now... I'm not saying that downtown couldn't use a dog park, but where would they put it in the WHD?  None of the lot owners are going to give up their cash-cows for a public use type development.

Make the "premier nightclub district" (which doesn't even have great clubs in the first place) more family friendly? How does that make sense? Families aren't going to be out at 9PM or later and if you want to add an ice cream shop or amusement park ride (wtf?), it should be done elsewhere in Cleveland, not in an area where people go to party.

I think you should be prepared for the fact that for every good idea, about 10 bad ones will be tossed about.

Now... I'm not saying that downtown couldn't use a dog park, but where would they put it in the WHD? None of the lot owners are going to give up their cash-cows for a public use type development.

 

It could be incorporated into the temporary green space at the FEB.  There is also a fenced in area between two public (sewer?) buildings near Settler's Landing right on the river.  It would be a relatively small dog park, but it would be better than the nothing we have now. 

 

I really like the dog park idea.  There are a surprising number of dog owners in the WHD.

OK.  But that is not the WHD.  Those locations would be the Flats.  I really like the idea of a dog park for downtown too.  I just don't see where one could be situated in the WHD.

Not in the WHD but could you turn the lot across from the Q, on huron and ontario, into a dog park. It be right by the new bike place

Is that a City owned lot?

OK.  But that is not the WHD.  Those locations would be the Flats.  I really like the idea of a dog park for downtown too.  I just don't see where one could be situated in the WHD.

 

there is a lot of dead space where the ramps to the shoreway come up/down between w3 and w9.  i think some of this paved area, with some new lighting and some gravel/grass/fencing could be a productive use of this space as a dog run.  there could be access from both w6 and w9.

 

 

^Great idea!

Is W. 6th a one or a two way street now?

Is it feasible to close it at night, and have it open for traffic during the day.  (BTW, that is what they do on Bourbon street in the French Quarter)

What is happening to that space where the parking garage that was demolished on the corner of Superior and W. 6th recently?

^ Surface parking.

Oh gawd.... more?

The garage was structurally unstable and had to come down, it has been discussed in the warehouse district developments thread.

Somewhat on topic, I actually was in a WH District club dancing while on my Cleveland visit.  Sin or Sim or someplace like that.  Even got my photo taken there....

^As an outsider, what was your take on the scene and the issues discussed in this thread?

^

From experiences here in Dayton, club owners should be accountable for things inside their clubs, and have their licenses revoked if things get out fo hand (excessive police calls to the club, for example).

 

The police are responsible for keeping order on the street.  But I guess there is an art to that.   

 

Incidentally,New Haven (Connecticut) is having problems with its nightclub district, too:

 

Problem Policing

 

Downtown New Haven confronts Police

 

@@@

 

I didn't really "do" the warehouse district in a big way.  From what I saw (Friday night), the place was pretty active, but orderly.  I guess I was impressed that this scene was on more than one street..that the club district extended out to a few blocks, compared to the the more condensed thing we have in Dayton in the Oregon district.  Cincinnati is sort of developing something similar along Walnut, starting at Fountain Square.  It's not quite as developed as the WH District yet, though.

 

@@@@

 

I should note that 4th Street could be a good competitor for this, but it's smaller..just one block.  I went to one place on 4th that had live music (a reggae band), and had dinner at another (the Tree House), and, of course, coffee at Erie Island.  Seems, with the House of Blues nearby this could be more the live music street.  Seems since Celeveland has that Rock Hall of Fame that there would be a district that would book some live rock and R&B bands (aside from just the House fo Blues), partly as a tourist draw.  Yet scenes like that are somewhat organic, so not sure how to force it.

 

Be nice to see some of this bleed over onto Prospect.  Some of it is, on the north side of Prospect, but maybe a bit of a nightclub/restaurant mix on the South side, around, say, that Goldfish place (which looks closed).

 

 

 

Be nice to see some of this bleed over onto Prospect. Some of it is, on the north side of Prospect, but maybe a bit of a nightclub/restaurant mix on the South side, around, say, that Goldfish place (which looks closed).

 

 

If I remember correctly, the developer of E. 4th Street, MRN, has offered to buy those buildings on the south side of Prospect, but the owner (a California parking company) wouldn't sell.  They actually applied for a demolition permit to knock down one of the buildings in that strip for a surface lot, but they were denied.

 

Be nice to see some of this bleed over onto Prospect. Some of it is, on the north side of Prospect, but maybe a bit of a nightclub/restaurant mix on the South side, around, say, that Goldfish place (which looks closed).

 

 

If I remember correctly, the developer of E. 4th Street, MRN, has offered to buy those buildings on the south side of Prospect, but the owner (a California parking company) wouldn't sell. They actually applied for a demolition permit to knock down one of the buildings in that strip for a surface lot, but they were denied.

 

I wish they would sell, If those buildings were torn down, that stretch of prospect would be pretty sad. I hope MRN can get a hold of all 3 or 4 of those building, could be a little extension of east 4th. Have a few more retail/restaurant spots and add more apartments to the area.