OK.  But that is not the WHD.  Those locations would be the Flats.  I really like the idea of a dog park for downtown too.  I just don't see where one could be situated in the WHD.

 

there is a lot of dead space where the ramps to the shoreway come up/down between w3 and w9.  i think some of this paved area, with some new lighting and some gravel/grass/fencing could be a productive use of this space as a dog run.  there could be access from both w6 and w9.

 

 

 

awesome idea !!!

 

this does not necessarily have to be a problem for the city whatsoever as long as permission is granted to use 'dead' public space like that -- for example, around nyc how dog runs came about and are paid for varies a lot, but often they way they pay for them and the upkeep is via annual membership fees ie., $25 or $40 and pet owner volunteerism:

http://manhattan.about.com/od/citylife1/a/manhattandogrun.htm

Another incident in the Warehouse District on W. 9th.  I remember reading about this Fortress place before it opened and how they were not going to be the typical WHD estiblishment.  Part owner is the owner of XO. 

Went on the website and saw that Friday night is "Hip Hop night"...  Its seems to be almost a given when there is a stabbing or shooting involved. 

I wonder where the new, promised security was that is supposedly more present now (youd think it would be all the more present on a hip hop night)

 

Stabbing: Man stabbed in the Warehouse DistrictPosted: Mar 12, 2011 10:21 AM EST

 

CLEVELAND, OH (WOIO) - Cleveland Police are investigating a stabbing that happened just after 1 a.m. at Fortress Night Club on W. 9th Street.

 

 

http://www.woio.com/Global/story.asp?S=14238968

 

 

 

I;m dreading this spring/summer/fall season.

I just don't have a good feeling, especially for the hot summer nights.  :|

The Police Dept has installed a camera at the W. 6th and W. St. Clair intersection. It's like one of those that are on the quadrants of Public Square with the flashing blue lights. That is definitely a good thing. In my opinion, they're needed at a few more areas.

 

Concerning the above post...I guess there was more commotion than usual on Fri night now that I think about it. But at the time I just thought it was part of the prelude to the party season (spring fever and St. Patrick's day usually ramp up the party mood). It's hard to know if anything seriously bad is going on now or if it's just people milling around. There are so many sketchy, shady types...again, definitely on the weekend summer nights 'til the wee hours...that some (many?) residents just know to be home by 10:30 - 11:00 PM on a Fri or Sat night or make accomodations to stay where you are 'til the next morning. I'm included in that because, well, I'm just too old for the B.S.

On summer nights the predator : prey ratio spikes very high from about 11 PM - 4 AM (at least that has been the trend for late summer '09 and all of summer '10). And a seemingly large portion of the people in that timeframe like to f#@k with you if, in any way, you come off as vulnerable. If your dog needs a walk, I say to you "Bonne Chance", and it better be a big one because you're gonna be called every name in the book if it's a tiny little lap dog. Simple Biology 101/predator-prey. Purposely standing in front of parking lot entrances/exits, purposely walking slowly or just standing in the middle of the street...all the while watching for your reaction. It's just a fact of life in present-day WHD. And I'm a lifelong Clevelander who has lived in the city proper and downtown for years, so I'm pretty sure I know how to conduct myself in whatever environment I may be. The police need to be able to do their job though and the drama that occurred last summer cannot go on unabated. Disinvestment will occur and then on and on. There are other places in Cleveland that are walkable, convenient, urban, lively, with nightlife and daylife that are less drama-filled. I'm looking to uproot to University Circle.

 

The Warehouse District is (still) terrific during most of the week and at most times of the year. It can be very picturesque (as evidenced by my recent photo thread) and is a very convenient place to live. But it is definitely experiencing some growing pains. Actually, that it didn't need to experience. It could've been experiencing the growing pains of infill and needs for more grocers or more clothing stores or what have you. But it has remained on the trajectory of filling the vacancies with a lot of clubs/bars. But I understand that is related to more complicated reasons, like the global and local economy.

 

It remains to be seen what effect the CC/MM or Casino will have on this part of downtown. I suspect the Casino will have less to do with it...those visitors will either stay confined to Tower City or possibly venture out to the greater Gateway area. The CC/MM visitors will proabably patronize this District since it will only be right down St. Clair. But it has to be perceived as an enjoyable place to go. Anyway that's a few years away. Time will tell. That may just start this summer, who knows?, and all of these worries could be a thing of the past.

 

 

Fortress is a cool place when there's salsa on the first floor.  I did go to the second floor one time, it...wasn't my scene, but I never got a bad vibe either.  I also have never heard of any similar incidents there, so let's not go to the end is near just yet.

 

About this upcoming summer from hell, who knows.  It's really a matter of more security and ignoring the idiot race baiting regulars that'll keep the neighborhood affloat. 

Why not just blanket the area in security cameras? Are they that expensive?

 

One or two incidents doesn't mean the district itself is at fault, honestly. It bothers me that the stabber got away. Enforce loitering ordinances on the street vigorously. Don't they sweep the street at 2 or 3 with police?

How late are the Safety Ambassadors out?

How late are the Safety Ambassadors out?

 

3am on Friday and Saturday last I heard.

I was just at Fortress the other night and I barely saw any police out on West 9th. Majority of them were out on West 6th, providing "security" and blocking both ends of the street with cars and vans. I understand that downtown can be scary at times but the District definitely shouldn't be blamed as a whole for an individual's actions. The police should make sure that they are being seen on both streets instead of just one area. Everyone just needs to be safe when they are down there because the Warehouse district and West 6th can be great places to enjoy, especially in the summer.

No mention of the 'gang fight' on the patio of the Blue moose in Parma that resulted in a stabbing?  I know it wasn't hip-hop night, but I heard that they were playing Will Smith's "getting jiggy with it" on the juke-box right before the rumble broke out...

^have a little respect, someone got stabbed, that's not funny

I could say the same to you.  The fact that someone got stabbed is not what is amusing to me.

Just wanted to mention that I was out on W6th with some friends on Saturday night and we didn't witness any problems at all.  Cops were presented on both ends of the block and it was a pretty busy night, but we didn't see any fights, arrests, or even an argument.  Everyone around just seemed to be in good spirits and out to have a good time.  And this has been my experience nearly every time I've gone out on W6th, which is 3-4 times a month.  So there are a few fights every now and then... big deal, this happens at every bar occasionally.  So someone gave you the stink eye or a shoulder bump... get over it or go home.  If a shoulder bump throws you into a rage then you probably aren't cut out for heavily trafficked entertainment districts.

 

Sorry for the little rant, but I get a little sick of people saying W6th isn't safe or is being "taken over" or whatever when that hasn't been my experience at all as a resident who frequents W6th on the weekends. 

I really don't think W 6th is a huge problem.  I have seen a couple bar fights down there, but that's it. 

 

I will say, and "entertainment district" can not just consist of bars and nightclubs, and live on as a trendy district forever.  I really wish when a bar moves out, some sort of retail establichment moves in.  There needs to be a decent mix.  I know for a fact if I was looking to invest in a home downtown, the WHD would be my last option.   

 

^^Good to hear!

It will be great if the same experience can be had on those 70° - 80° nights this upcoming summer. The beautiful summer weather and the fact that schools/colleges/universities are out ramp up the volume.

If the relative civility continues, then last summer's B.S. will just be a blip on the screen.

 

^^Good to hear!

It will be great if the same experience can be had on those 70° - 80° nights this upcoming summer. The beautiful summer weather and the fact that schools/colleges/universities are out ramp up the volume.

If the relative civility continues, then last summer's B.S. will just be a blip on the screen.

 

What B.S. happened last summer?

Lots of underage kids were harassing or unnerving legitimate patrons of the restaurants and bars down there. In a nut shell.

I was down there on Saturday and I remember being surprised at how many people were out (must be used to winter crowds now).  I think the real "problems" come when schools are out as was pointed out above.  Hopefully this is a peaceful fun summer for the WHD as the media has not done the area any favors with its' coverage of the "chaos" last summer.

By some accounts, the underage, minority loiterers were an issue last summer saying rude things and acting in a disrepctful manner.  According to others, it was the presence of hip-hop nights and the 'crowd' that brings to the WHD.  According to others, it was the fact that it simply got so popular for those balmy summer nights that disturbances are inevitable.  According to others, the concern was way overblown and mostly due to unjustified fear.  I think it was a combination of all of the above.

Just to throw in my 2 cents, I've been hanging out on W. 25th the past two years now and those places are really booming now on the weekends.  What used to be more alternative crowds are now becoming more mainstream crowds and even "party buses" for bachelorette" type parties or whatever.  These crowds used to be exclusive to the W. 6th bars, but not anymore.  Sources in the liquor business tell me W. 6th's volume is significantly down to years past.  Could be due to E. 4th impact also, but I'm sure it's a variety of things.

Good for W25th.  Personally, I think it is vital to spread out the entertainment districts a bit.  Whenever one of them becomes too popular, trouble seems bound to follow.  Put a couple thousand drunk a-holes on any given street and I think you should know what to expect.

One of my sisters got married in Charlotte this past weekend and I stayed at the Holiday Inn in Uptown (Charlotte's CBD).  That place is really, really picking up some steam.  Just a few years back, it was nothing to write home about.

 

Not a lot of retail, but tons of residences and night life.  N College and Trade streets are as lively as the WHD on the weekends.  The CBD is smaller than Cleveland's.... more akin to Cincy's with the narrow streets and really doesn't stretch more than a few blocks.  But the bars/clubs are all packed and people are really genuinely excited about it.

 

But I did notice that our oft-cited complaint of underage kids on the streets of the entertainment district is hardly unique to Cleveland.  Charlotte built light rail that runs from the south and splits a really good neighborhood and a fairly bad neighborhood.  The kids are taking the light rail downtown and strolling around the streets at night in small packs.  On Friday night, I'd say that half (if not more) of the pedestrians I saw were ummmmmmm...... "they" (is that the term I am supposed to use?).  And these weren't the southern church going types.  They were the dirty south, bout it bout it, gold teeth types.

 

But it just didn't seem to bother people as much down there as it does here.  I refuse to believe those yuppies from Clt are tougher than us Cleveland folks, so I tried to observe the differences to see how Uptown keeps gaining such tremendous momentum while this is still going on.  They certainly did not have to close off any streets or line them with cop cars.  First, the City has law enforcement types down there on nearly every corner with bright, neon yellow vests on...... very visible and constantly observing the happenings on the street.  Second, "they" were never standing still...... "they" kept moving, leading me to believe that if "they" had just stopped at a corner and loitered, they would have been shuffled off by the cops.  And lastly, although there were numerous groups of "they" down there, I don't believe I saw a group larger than 7 or so (but I'm not sure how you could restrict that).

 

"They" were still out and about on Saturday, but not quite as many as Friday night.  People really didn't seem to care either way.  It was hopping on both nights.

 

Oh yeah, panhandlers a plenty too.  I got the long winded "just got out of jail.... need a bus ticket.... trying to turn my life around" woe is me schtick from one of them, so they can't be that much different than here.  Yet, everyone I interacted with there (from the Charlotte locals to the folks from surrounding communities..... from DJ's to Bankers) kept talking Uptown, Uptown, Uptown, Uptown.......

 

I came away concluding that our biggest (albeit hardly our only) issue boils down to local perception and the negativity we spawn.  I do believe that the few obeservations I made above though could be implemented here with good results, but as long as "they" can be seen, I'm not sure it will make that big of a difference in the minds of our Negative Neds.

 

All that said, this momentum and "it" factor (if you will) has not stopped that new residential high rise in Uptown from only having 5 or 6 lights on at night. 

Interesting insights.  I would always prefer a street flush with "cops on the beat" over cruisers shutting off the road.  I think if we could muster a law enforcement presence on nearly every street corner, most of our problems (perceived and otherwise) would be solved. 

Almost all the Uptown cops were on foot.  I saw plenty of cops and very few cop cars.  This might be the type of order maintenance policing which was so effectively implemented in NYC under Guiliani

good charlotte observations and besides foot patrol i take from that adding more residential makes all the difference in the world -- its going to take a very visible shiny new residential tower before suburban types who may be on the fence about moving into the city or even hanging out there with more regularity change their minds. charlotte certainly has new and some people need to see that, they just don't see renovations and conversions as easily. same old building to them and all that. now thats not to say efforts should be driven by those attitudes, but when cle gets that kind of borderline local clique on board it's cbd will really be rolling. FEB phase2 will probably be the quickest next step in this direction.

It'd be interesting to know more of the context beyond two nights, of course.  How does media portray Uptown?  Have they experienced previous issues with crime/fights?  Are "they" exhibiting the same behavior in Uptown as in the WD?

 

That said, I'd like the idea of more beat cops, too.

A google search will confirm that it is not a total non-issue in Clt.  But their mere presence, irregardless of disturbances, seems to be less of an issue to the locals down there.

 

I did see a few fights.... nothing I would not expect to see in an entertainment district crowded with 20 and 30 somethings drunks.

 

As far as behavoir, yes..... it appeared to be the same from what I could tell.  Then again, I always seem to manage to avoid the utter horrors others somehow always do in the WHD with "they".  Luck of the Irish I suppose.  The one noticeable difference, as mentioned above, is that "they" were always on the move.... so you weren't forced to (gasp) walk through a crowd of "they" to get where you were going.  I don't know how the cops managed that, because I posted up on a bench by myself with my hood up for about 20 minutes at around 1am and nobody said anything to me

Did you observe anyone actively harassing anyone else?  Because that's the crux of the issue here.

 

 

Did you observe anyone actively harassing anyone else?  Because that's the crux of the issue here.

 

Really?  I've never seen anyone actively "harassed" in the WHD at any time of day or night.  Cat called?  Sure.  A little smack talk between two drunk 20-somethings?  Sure.  Harassment?  No.

Depends on what you mean, 327.  I saw a bunch of frat looking boys hanging off the balconies of 2nd floor rooftop bars on Trade St. cat-calling every girl on the street and talking sh!t with some passerbys.  I saw a drunk soccer dad (there was a tournament this weekend) at the hotel bar 'harrassing' (I suppose) a bunch of girls half his age.  I saw two 15-16 year olds fighting.  I saw a redneck pissing at one of the light rail stops.  There were a bunch of daytime drunks, dressed up in silly costumes, sprinting through the streets during the day for some pub crawl contest.  But for the most part, everybody was having a good time.

Big win for Joe C.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/08/state_denies_liquor_license_to.html

 

State denies liquor license to crime-ridden Club Allure; appeal is likely

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The state's Division of Liquor Control will not renew the liquor license for Club Allure, a nightclub off Public Square where three men were shot June 3 following an argument.

 

In a letter dated Aug. 15, state liquor officials told club owner Luciana Gilmore that renewing the license  would create substantial interference with public decency, peace, sobriety and good order in the neighborhood and the club has operated in a way that demonstrates a disregard of the laws.

 

Cleveland Councilman Joe Cimperman has been actively seeking to have Club Allure's liquor license revoked following the June 3 shooting, the latest of numerous problems that brought police to the nightclub.

Nice work Joe!

went down to W. 6th Saturday night to meet some friends at Blind Pig.  Got there early & stayed late so I missed the whole crowd buildup outside while I was inside.  Walked out around closing time and couldn't believe all the people milling around, showing up, walking in the streets... next to no police presence.  I thought all this was supposed to be resolved after the incident with the cops & George Forbes' nephew the other summer.  Seems like it's back to being on the verge of blowing up all over again.

^Are you complaining about the crowd or just the lack of police presence?  As for walking in the street, I personally think W6th should be closed to car traffic on Friday and Saturday night.  I like seeing people walking in the street.

^^They typically close W6th between Lakeside and St. Clair somewhere around 12 or 1 AM.  I don't think people walking in the streets at closing time is unexpected or a big deal.  I'm just glad the crowds are still there this summer and there have been no major incidents reported.  Seems like it's been a great, safe summer in the WHD.

Crowds are still there but they are hanging out on the street.  Talk to anyone who works in the Warehouse district as a bartender, server, etc.  Business is DOWN.  People are going elsewhere to spend money.

^Are you talking about loiterers..... or just people being out on the street after the bars close?  I can see your point if you are referring to the issues with the young teens being down there who aren't even old enough to go in the clubs/bars.  But I don't see it if you are simply referring to party goers enjoying some time on the street.

 

As far as business being DOWN..... it is down in a lot of places.  Regardless, Cleveland has this tendency to rotate hot spots anyways.  The WHD might be down because it does not hold such a monopoly anymore on that type of environment with the continual rise of OC, Tremont, DS, LI, 4th, etc.  I was in OC this weekend and can report that business is UP

Taken from the WHD developments thread:

 

Spoke to one of the bar managers down there on Sunday.  He said the bars are totally frustrated with the amount of underage kids that show up down there on the weekends to just hang out & start trouble.  The police are right there but they aren't doing anything to enforce curfews, loitering, etc and this is part of what's driving off customers.  He said the bars are putting a formal complaint together to the Warehouse District Board and the Downtown Cleveland Alliance.  Stay tuned

 

Are the 'underage kids' older or younger than 18?  I would bet a mixture of both, which might make enforcement difficult for the police, or at least give the appearance that the curfew is not being enforced.  The idea we have floated on this board a few times is perhaps tightening the access points for certain peak hours and definitely around closing time on the weekends.  The City needs to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, like what was arguably (by design or not) done with the Flats.  I would guess that the main issues occur between 10pm and 230am Thurs-Sat.

 

It's unfortunate to hear that some problems still linger, but it does seem like the issues have indeed calmed down a bit from a couple summers ago.

^ I wonder how much of the underage issue here could be avoided if there was an actual place for that crowd to go to. We need another Euclid Beach Park type of place for families and young people.

^what?  This is like midnight on friday/saturday night...  kids under 18 showing up on bicycles...  hanging out on the sidewalk of nightclubs

^what?  This is like midnight on friday/saturday night...  kids under 18 showing up on bicycles...  hanging out on the sidewalk of nightclubs

 

Exactly. My point is, they have no place to go. Where I grew up kids that age - me included- were at the boardwalk. Open all night. Games, rides, arcades, lots of people and lots of supervision. There is nothing like that in Cleveland. There should be.

^what?  This is like midnight on friday/saturday night...  kids under 18 showing up on bicycles...  hanging out on the sidewalk of nightclubs

 

I can't say that I've seen a lot of kids on bicycles in downtown at any point of the day, and particularly not past midnight.  I also usually don't see alot of kids over 12 riding bicycles either.  These are the ones that are 'starting trouble'?

 

I don't think kids that age should be out that late period.... but the real troublemakers IMO tend to be in the 18-21 range.  That's why I don't think that curfew enforcement will really solve any percieved problem.

^what?  This is like midnight on friday/saturday night...  kids under 18 showing up on bicycles...  hanging out on the sidewalk of nightclubs

 

I can't say that I've seen a lot of kids on bicycles in downtown at any point of the day, and particularly not past midnight.  I also usually don't see alot of kids over 12 riding bicycles either.  These are the ones that are 'starting trouble'?

 

I don't think kids that age should be out that late period.... but the real troublemakers IMO tend to be in the 18-21 range.  That's why I don't think that curfew enforcement will really solve any percieved problem.

 

Right the 18-21 year olds that also like to park in the middle of the street at closing time and not move their cars!

^what?  This is like midnight on friday/saturday night...  kids under 18 showing up on bicycles...  hanging out on the sidewalk of nightclubs

 

I can't say that I've seen a lot of kids on bicycles in downtown at any point of the day, and particularly not past midnight.  I also usually don't see alot of kids over 12 riding bicycles either.  These are the ones that are 'starting trouble'?

 

I don't think kids that age should be out that late period.... but the real troublemakers IMO tend to be in the 18-21 range.  That's why I don't think that curfew enforcement will really solve any percieved problem.

 

There's probably not a lot of them (kids on bikes), but while waiting for my bus on Public Square at midnight-1AM on a weeknight you notice every single one of them.