There was an article today in the Cleveland PD about rise in Ohio College population over the past decade.  One thing stood out of me: Every major city in Ohio has a large state school, expect for Cleveland.  Even Youngstown State is almost the same size of Cleveland's largest public, Cleveland State University.  A few questions arise:

 

How strong is an economic engine with having a high number of educated young people in a dense area?

 

Should Cleveland do all it can to expand Cleveland State University an addtional 5,000-10,000 students??

 

What are the positives for cities like Columbus, Cincinnati, Toledo, and Akron with having such large state schools?

 

Any other thoughts??

 

Here's the article:

 

Enrollment up sharply since 2000 at Ohio's large universities

Published: Thursday, June 24, 2010, 8:01 AM

Rich Exner, The Plain Dealer

 

 

Enrollment at at the main campuses at Ohio's public universities is up 14 percent since 2000.

 

Ohio State remains the largest, at 55,870 students.

 

But five others top 20,000 students each: Cincinnati (31,296), Akron (26,395), Kent State (25,351), Toledo (23,136) and Ohio U. (22,640).

 

http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2010/06/enrollment_up_sharply_since_20.html

Colleges sadly are probably more expensive to support w/in a city than they are worth. Students are exceptionally destructive of local housing stock (housing prices often increases because they are priced based on students paying individual rents that are higher than places where families dominate.

I think CSU is on the right path. Keep growing, keep expanding and attracting residential students. Hell, rename and rebrand itself if needed. Cleveland's lack of large middle tier university has been a huge contribution to it's brain drain over the years. 

They act like an anchor keeping the city going, and in some cases, are more or less the reason the town is there (i.e., Athens).  Could you imagine what Cleveland would be like if CSU had the economic power of Ohio State?  Imagine the economic opportunity if say you doubled the number of Browns home football games each year?  Or if Euclid Ave and between 18th and 30th turned into a Court St or a High St with 15,000 students living in a 2 mile radius?  And if some of the adjacent Cleveland neighborhoods (Hough, Central) had 15,000 more people living in them?  Not to mention what a powerful alumni association would be able to contribute to the University (and city) even if they don't live in the area.

Besides the economic impact, the people that it draws to the city. 

 

The other week we were reading about the Cleveland group that was started by a group of young Clevelanders, many that only came to attend college and fell in love with the place. 

These very people are the ones that bring some outside perspective and often greater appreciation for the city than you often find with the natives.  An appreciation that a visitor might miss. 

 

I meet alot of people that know about Columbus, because of Ohio State (and have nice things to say), but dont know much about Cleveland, and as someone that lived in Columbus, the things like food and culture that they appreciated there, would more-so impress them about Cleveland.   

 

   

It is the research and spin off businesses that universities generate that benefits a region and a city, not so much the undergraduate population.  Thus, Carnegie Class I rated research institutions have the most impact.  CWRU and Ohio State are in the same league in this regard.  None of the other Ohio universities are.  I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong. 

Thanks C-Dawg for that write up on Toledo.

 

 

Colleges absolutely build up cities.  Look at Northwestern University and its relationship with Evanston.  From my understanding, the school actually preceded the city by about 20 years and both have thrived considerably off one another.  Evanston has some wonderful restaurants, new condos left and right, great public schools, thriving business district, and has great public transportation.  Northwestern is, of course, Northwestern - one of our nation's best, in particular in journalism and engineering.  Evanston would not be Evanston without Northwestern (the funny thing is that they have a contentious relationship over some of the local tax codes).

 

If Cleveland hadn't chased out Rockefeller back in the day and we got to have the University of Cleveland instead of Chicago receiving U of C, you can bet things would have been a TON better for the downtown area and city as a whole.  Colleges can make cities - look at Kent as another obvious example.   

If Cleveland hadn't chased out Rockefeller back in the day and we got to have the University of Cleveland instead of Chicago receiving U of C, you can bet things would have been a TON better for the downtown area and city as a whole. 

 

Why is there no face palm emoticons for statements like these?

 

But we can't change the past, only shape the future.

 

 

I don't think that colleges make cities- Kent, Bowling Green, Athens, Oxford are all homes to large universities.  Note that they are all small towns, though.  Colleges do have other benefits, but they don't create cities by themselves, that requires jobs, be they from the private sector or public.

I agree that they don't create cities by them selves but I think in Cleveland's case the lack of a large university has hurt the city in attracting and retaining young professionals in sufficent numbers.

I think Cincinnati benefits immensly by having UC (and Xavier too, but its impact is less).  A trip to Clifton (where UC is located) shows how much of an impact the university has on the area around it.  There are tons of restaurants from just about every ethnicity, bars, and even shopping such as American Apparel and Urban Outfitters.  Those stores would not be in Clifton if not for UC.  They would instead probably be out in Kenwood or Rookwood, and cater to a more suburban population.  The impact can also be felt by the amount of talent that stays in the area because of UC.  The school of Design, Art, Architecture, and Planning (DAAP) is really well regarded and has top tier programs that attract students from all over the country.  Sure some of those graduates move on to NYC or LA, but some also stay local because they have the connection to Cincinnati, and the job market here.  I definitely think having the university helps keep young people in the city.

 

One difference between UC and Cincinnati and OSU and Columbus is that in Cincy, Clifton has that college feel to it, but it is just one option.  In Columbus, most (not all, but most) of the premier neighborhoods are near OSU, and all the big events are pretty much on campus, from football games to the Wexner Center, the university is definitely the focal point of the city.  In Cincy there are other premier neighborhoods that really don't have much to do with the university.  So in terms of impact on the city, you can get your college environment if you want, but you can also have a different experience as well...it's just one option.  I will also say that having a large university is good for establishments around the city.  You'll see Xavier or UC or simply just 'college' nights at different bars, you'll see students out to dinner or a play or concert no where near Clifton.  I basically think it gives you a supply of 9 month tourists.

CDC, I'm not sure what you're saying/criticizing about my earlier point.  We can appreciate the mistakes from our past and then use those lessons to make a better future.  If you look at how the University of Chicago has benefited Hyde Park, then you have to admit there would be been a great impact if Cleveland had tried to resolve the Rockefeller tax disputes, resulting in his staying and building the University of Cleveland and Rockefeller University downtown or at least in the city proper.  We seemed to ignore those lessons with the Peter Lewis situation (wasn't it over something as trivial as parking privileges - I admit I don't know the exact specifics?) so it is important to refer to the past to best shape our future or else we keep making the same mistakes.

 

But onto my original point, strong schools strengthen cities as the city has a better reputation for being well educated, students and their families spend money on all kinds of things, and there is a larger population.  I don't see any negatives here, folks.

I agree that they don't create cities by them selves but I think in Cleveland's case the lack of a large university has hurt the city in attracting and retaining young professionals in sufficent numbers.

 

Agreed 100%.  A large university is a great component for building a great city, maybe even necessary.  But it's not sufficient.  It takes other ingredients, too.

One difference between UC and Cincinnati and OSU and Columbus is that in Cincy, Clifton has that college feel to it, but it is just one option.  In Columbus, most (not all, but most) of the premier neighborhoods are near OSU, and all the big events are pretty much on campus, from football games to the Wexner Center, the university is definitely the focal point of the city.  In Cincy there are other premier neighborhoods that really don't have much to do with the university.  So in terms of impact on the city, you can get your college environment if you want, but you can also have a different experience as well...it's just one option.  I will also say that having a large university is good for establishments around the city.  You'll see Xavier or UC or simply just 'college' nights at different bars, you'll see students out to dinner or a play or concert no where near Clifton.  I basically think it gives you a supply of 9 month tourists.

 

You also could say most (not all, but most) Cincinnati's premier neighborhoods lie near UC.  Clifton, Clifton Heights, OTR, Mt. Adams, Mt. Auburn, all are nearby "Uptown" aka UC.  I mean, that is logical if you want to use the same look at Columbus with Victorian Village, Italian Village, Dennison Place, Clintonville, etc in connection with Ohio State.  Of course Cincinnati has other neighborhoods like the Hyde Park/Oakley/Mt. Lookout area but Columbus has German Village/Brewery District/Merion Village area which is far from OSU (further than UC is to Hyde Park) and has absolutely no connection to Ohio State, etc.  Same goes for Olde Town East/Town Franklin.  Hell, really, Victorian Village has no connection with OSU.

 

But I definately agree that MANY big events are on campus but not most certainly all (Downtown would have the most events, by far, much like Cincinnati).

TBideon, I wasn't critizing your comment,  I was just talking about Cleveland in the collective sense. I probably could have spent more time wordsmithing that comment, sorry. It just a reference was Cleveland has a lot of "duh" decision/moments to overcome. Hence the refernce to the face palm, as in boy that was a stupid decision.....

 

CDM, I agree the only reason that OSU has any connection today with Victorian Village is that OSU's influence have almost expanded that far south. Even into the late 90's when Victorian Village was pretty much gentrified that stretch between 10th and campus was a neglected, to say the least.

I think the fairly large post-graduate population of CWRU (and to some extent CSU and JCU as well) has a much larger effect on the economy of Cleveland than bringing in 20,000 undergrads would.  Undoubtedly it'd be nice to have more college students here, but I think what's really important is having post-grads, and we have a healthy amount of them in the area between CWRU, JCU, and CSU.

CDM, I agree the only reason that OSU has any connection today with Victorian Village is that OSU's influence have almost expanded that far south. Even into the late 90's when Victorian Village was pretty much gentrified that stretch between 10th and campus was a neglected, to say the least.

 

Bingo.  Dennison Place is the pseudo-OSU version of Victorian Village.  The Village itself has basically 0 connection to OSU nor does the Short North or Italian Village.  If it did, that stretch between Fifth and the University would be filled in with frat bars...but no, just a ghetto Kroger, a Papa Johns, and blood bank.  That's telling.  I'd say Over-the-Rhine has more of a connection to the University of Cincinnati (planning school comes to mind) than Ohio State does with the Short North.

And for a Dayton example, UD definately has a positive effect for the southside of the city, with Brown Street (Dayton's best commercial corridor outside of the central neighborhoods), new developments, connection to Carrillon Park, blah blah.  Ironically, most of the city doesn't even know that University District exists but Oakwood and Kettering do.

jam, The whole point that we are trying to make is the 20,000 undergrads (well at least a portion of them) would become post grads in addition to the one's from JCU, CWRU, BW, etc...

 

Unfortunately you can't play SIMCITY and plop and addition 10k-15k students into a city. My question is with regards to jobs, is Cleveland long or short on qualified (educated) workers? I have heard it both ways depending on if you are talking to a company that is hiring or if you are talking to somebody looking for a job.

 

 

jam, The whole point that we are trying to make is the 20,000 undergrads (well at least a portion of them) would become post grads in addition to the one's from JCU, CWRU, BW, etc...

 

Many of them would become postgrads somewhere else.  Conversely, some undergrads become postgrads here.

 

It'd be nice to have more undergrads for sure, but I think we're minimizing the importance of having a large postgrad population.

Great conversation, got to go catch my car pool home.

 

Jam, I think the main point I am trying to make is that for a metro area of a couple of million and a city pop of 500k, the combined 20k-25k ish students of CWRU, JCU and CSU isn't very big compared to C-Bus  and Cincy.

C-Dawg - I agree w/ your description of UT's place in Toledo. I was part of the first generation of the 'new' UT, when I came in 96 as part of the Honors Program and stayed in the dorms and nearby neighborhoods for a while. Of my friends from UT, only a couple are still in Toledo, most are in suburban Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati, Ann Arbor, and the like.

 

Ohio purposely built a bunch of rural teachers colleges to safely educate teachers for small town Ohio. The city colleges were for city residents.

 

I have far less positive feelings toward OSU than most on here.

 

For cities in general, they are valuable, but the nearby neighborhoods carry a lot of negative baggage. Before UC's growth in the last 25 years, many more of the surrounding neighborhoods were solidly middle-class than they are today.

Another important thing to remember is that universities create conditions where landlords can jack up rent to insane levels (taken to the absolute extreme in Athens). More and more people do not make enough money at their jobs to pay rent, yet this is one area where there seems to be no relief. Keep in mind most college kids don't give a damn since they're spending money that isn't theirs. It's coming from student loans, parents, etc. They don't fully realize what's happening until after they graduate and the money faucet is turned off. Because of this willingness to pay unfair rents, college kids have destroyed many neighborhoods in regards to having any sort of permanent population.

 

The universities don't make the situation any better, since dorms are huge scams too. It's almost as if universities and off-campus landlords are in cahoots. Certainly an obvious impact of our universities is the gigantic population of kids living in debt. Hence why I say a lot of universities create the illusion of success and wealth.

 

I will agree with this.  Without CWRU, Cleveland Heights would never be able to keep rents where they are. 

 

  "Over-the-Rhine has more of a connection to the University of Cincinnati..."

 

  Over-the-Rhine was originally home of the University of Cincinnati.

 

  Hmm, if we moved U.C. back to OTR, we wouldn't have to get the streetcar up the hill.... :wink:

I really do think a more residential Cleveland State would do wonders for downtown and the near east.  Undergrads spend money.  An influx of undergrads won't solve every problem for the area but it would certainly fill a major hole.

CDM, I agree the only reason that OSU has any connection today with Victorian Village is that OSU's influence have almost expanded that far south. Even into the late 90's when Victorian Village was pretty much gentrified that stretch between 10th and campus was a neglected, to say the least.

 

Bingo.  Dennison Place is the pseudo-OSU version of Victorian Village.  The Village itself has basically 0 connection to OSU nor does the Short North or Italian Village.  If it did, that stretch between Fifth and the University would be filled in with frat bars...but no, just a ghetto Kroger, a Papa Johns, and blood bank.  That's telling.  I'd say Over-the-Rhine has more of a connection to the University of Cincinnati (planning school comes to mind) than Ohio State does with the Short North.

 

The thing to remember with Ohio State is how many of its grads still live in Columbus. Retention is much better at OSU than at other universities in Ohio (there are jobs for OSU kids when the graduate). To say "zero connection" in a Columbus neighborhood would be false if Ohio State graduates live there. Almost any yuppie/hipster/gay/whatever neighborhood in Columbus has Ohio State grads, so it's important to remember what brought them to the city in the first place. The school is the city's primary reason for existence and its main economic incubator. That's what makes Columbus quite a bit different from Cincinnati (P&G, finance), Cleveland (medical industry, shipping), and Toledo (glass, auto industry, shipping). In Columbus, the private sector takes a backseat.

 

That's also what makes Columbus so stable. Ohio State is Big Ten, so it dominates. All the Big Ten schools tend to be leaders of the pack when it comes to public-private partnerships. The spinoff they create goes far beyond frat bars and late-night food joints.

 

When it comes to universities, ranking does seem to matter- the more desirable the school, the more desirable the city. Ohio State is the highest-ranked public school in this state. Schools like Toledo, Akron, and Cleveland State don't have the same impact because kids aren't banging down the doors to go to them.

 

When it comes to connection to the school, no.  When it comes to the students who go (or went) to the school, sure.  But that's any school in the world.  Ohio State wouldn't exist if Columbus were not the state capital of Ohio.  And Ohio State is NOT the city's primary reason for existence and its main economic incubator; that would be the state government.  Columbus would be fine without Ohio State (ala Indianapolis), though it would be less cool ;).

 

 

  "Over-the-Rhine has more of a connection to the University of Cincinnati..."

 

   Over-the-Rhine was originally home of the University of Cincinnati.

 

   Hmm, if we moved U.C. back to OTR, we wouldn't have to get the streetcar up the hill.... :wink:

 

LOL!  Love the idea.

I do think OSU is a big part of what defines Columbus. Much more so than, say, UC to Cincinnati.

 

I also agree the state government is obviously the reason Columbus exists, but then OSU came along and now they kind of both share enormous pieces of the pie.

 

I would definitely say a larger percentage of the people I know who went to OSU stayed in Cbus vs. UC grads in Cincy. Not sure why. I guess jobs, but then it's a chicken vs. egg thing. Since the university is such a strong force, it gives Cbus a progressive edge which is my best guess at what helps to retain grads.

 

Another factor towards OSU defining Cbus, I think, is the lack of pro sports teams. Another factor is simply being a newer city. Cincy has its rich history to give it its soul. It grew organically, while Cbus had the state government and the university planted there to do exactly what they do.

 

I think ColDayMan's assessment of Cincy neighborhoods is a bit off, but I don't really want to dissect it. I will just say I think it would be awesome if UC started using some buildings in OTR. They could be an anchoring force for the NoLibs/Brewery District section. I think abandoned breweries would make flipping amazing university buildings, and running shuttles up and down Vine or W Clifton (at least until the streetcar is built) would be easy as pie. Heck, move DAAP down there. I'm sure there's another use for the existing DAAP building.

Well, it's without question Ohio State contributes to Columbus moreso than UC is to Cincinnati.  A). I was pointing out the fact that the Columbus' best neighborhoods aren't really connected to Ohio State [they aren't; check ColumbusUnderground.com for a local perspective] and B). Columbus WOULD exist without Ohio State, it would just be an Indianapolis or Sacramento. 

 

Another factor towards OSU defining Cbus, I think, is the lack of pro sports teams. Another factor is simply being a newer city. Cincy has its rich history to give it its soul. It grew organically, while Cbus had the state government and the university planted there to do exactly what they do.

 

Eh.  I agree the lack of sports teams gives Ohio State that "Columbus college town" aura (particularly on a football day) but Columbus ALSO has a rich history/soul which grew organically before Ohio State.  For example, the German Village isn't exactly this "orderly, no-organically built" neighborhood nor are any of the old city neighborhoods.  Columbus had factories like any city.  State government is just an industry much like the hog built Cincinnati or steel built Pittsburgh.  Or in today's case, casinos did Las Vegas and Macau.

 

I think ColDayMan's assessment of Cincy neighborhoods is a bit off, but I don't really want to dissect it.

 

I don't know how it's off if it's the truth!?!?  Uptown, Mt. Auburn, Mt. Adams, Over-the-Rhine, all are near the University of Cincinnati.  But like Mt. Adams and UC, the Victorian Village doesn't directly benefit from Ohio State, though both Mt. Adams and Victorian Village have students that attend their respective nearby university.

If you include Mt. Auburn as a "premier" neighborhood, that kind of opens the flood gates, IMO, for that term. That's one gripe I have.

 

Mt. Adams being "near" UC is sketchy. As the crow flies, it's true. Given topography and street layout, it's a world away. Mt. Adams is practically its own island.

I agree the topography plays a part in Mt. Adams' isolation but geographically, it is near UC.  Edale pointed out most of Columbus' best neighborhoods are near OSU while I merely pointed out the same idea holds true for Cincinnati.  Yet neither can be concluded with connection between the "premier" neighborhoods and OSU/UC.

 

And Mt. Auburn is absolutely gorgeous and architecturally is one of the city's premier neighborhoods.  Milton alone > Mt. Lookout.

If nice architecture is your criteria for a premier neighborhood, then of course most are near UC. That's because they are near Downtown. And that's because they're old neighborhoods. I thought we were talking about trendy or upscale neighborhoods, which unless I am unaware of some kind of shift, Mt. Auburn really isn't.

 

I know this is probably getting into an overly subjective realm, but I would say Hyde Park "feels" closer to UC than Mt. Adams does, because of topography and major arterials running between the two areas. I think ignoring topography and street layout when talking about this kind of thing in Cincy is really bogus.

 

Oh well, this is pretty far off topic now. That's why I didn't want to go into details initially.

 

Edit: Apparently it's not just my gut feeling (thought "closer" may have been an overstatement, Hyde Park definitely doesn't feel further):

 

To Hyde Park, 11 min.

 

To Mt. Adams, 10 min.

I'll be the one to offer something of a contrary viewpoint here:

 

It's definitely true that having Ohio State there has done wonders for Columbus, but as several posters on this thread have already noted, what really lets OSU have that kind of impact is the amount of jobs that are there in Columbus that OSU grads can fill, meaning that the city retains a great deal of its graduates.

 

It's also true that Toledo suffers from an image problem, as C-Dawg said, and that means that UT grads are often looking to leave the city and grads from elsewhere don't generally have it high on their list; in fact, they may have it very low on their lists, meaning that a job offer would have to be particularly special there to attract someone from outside.

 

Cleveland, however, suffers less from that problem.  In addition, while the city might not have a major university, the state has many, and if you look at the issue from a statewide perspective instead of a citywide perspective, what the state needs more of is jobs to keep our college graduates here, especially in the more lucrative fields like healthcare, finance, engineering, etc.  I know from my time at OSU, lots of people were looking to get away to Chicago or the Carolinas or Texas or what have you, but many would have been happy to go to Cleveland, too.  Cleveland would be much better served by focusing on becoming a career destination city than just on becoming a city where people go to school.  Columbus, of course, is blessed to be both, and it would be great if Cleveland could do both.  However, life is about setting priorities sometimes.  Northern Ohio already has, in addition to the Cleveland schools, Akron, Youngstown State, Bowling Green, Toledo, Oberlin, Findlay, etc.  Just increasing the proportion of graduates from those schools who go to Cleveland to start their careers would give the city all the white collar population it needs--and, frankly, more than it can currently absorb, which is exactly my point about increasing its ability to launch non-dead-end white-collar careers for new grads.

 

Moreover, if the city does decide to invest heavily in increasing the size of Cleveland State, I hope that it doesn't take the form of an increase in undergraduate enrollment; the notion of increasing enrollment by 5000-10,000 sounds good but loses sight of the fact that not all undergrads are created equal.  Adding another 5,000 midrange liberal arts majors probably won't do much more for the city than increase the population of debt-burdened boomerang generation 20-somethings.

Adding another 5,000 midrange liberal arts majors probably won't do much more for the city than increase the population of debt-burdened boomerang generation 20-somethings.

 

That's Oberlin's bread and butter!

 

When I am talking undergrads, I want worker drone quality. People that businesses will hire. Engineering students, finance students, accounting students, IT majors...you get the idea.

 

Gramyre, you bring up a good point about Ohio state school situation. Especially with schools like OU, Miami, Kent(to a degree) and BG. You really don't have the choice of staying there after graduation unless you really like delivering pizza. Historically the cities and their suburbs have sent kids to these schools and they come back home to work (or move out of state).  I think that this conversation is a big chicken and egg discussion, because a larger university presence in Downtown CLE may not have resulted in any significant change in the regional economy but I think that it would have helped the city proper tremendously over the years.

I know from my time at OSU, lots of people were looking to get away to Chicago or the Carolinas or Texas or what have you, but many would have been happy to go to Cleveland, too. Cleveland would be much better served by focusing on becoming a career destination city than just on becoming a city where people go to school.

 

I think this is very true, it is a state issue at the core (although having a college town on the east side of downtown Cleveland would be huge...and it seems CSU is heading that way...but I digress).

 

I went to Ohio U and had no intention of leaving Ohio.  In fact, the summer I was looking to intern I had a couple offers, one of which was with JC Penny in Dallas.  I immediately dismissed it - simply too far away.  1 year later when job hunting was drawing to a close, Dallas came knocking on my door again....and "Dallas" simply made a better presentation to me than the companies I was considering in Ohio.  And even after 4 years in Dallas, I was ready to come home...but it took me another 2 years to find a job to come home to.

 

On the flip side of this, local companies should really focus on partnering with Ohio schools/programs to act as a pipeline for their future employees (I know some already do, but they need to do more).  When I was looking for a job out of college, tech companies from around the country were recruiting OU kids from my major.  Similar Ohio companies I had to actively seek out.  It was part of the reason I left - feeling wanted is a big part of why you decide to work somewhere.

Fair enough, Gramarye, and since I'm done with school now I hope Cleveland will (eventually) provide career opportunities.  I think an expanded college downtown will help with that in the long term.  Many OSU grads stay in Columbus because they enjoyed living there as students.  And many of them stay to work in OSU-related fields.  CSU is not a liberal arts school... its known more for engineering and hard science undergrad programs, kinda like OSU.  IF CSU can expand more into the health fields, the sky's the limit for collaborating with local business.  And if CSU students can be convinced to stay here and start businesses, that's better for our whole economy.  Right now too many are leaving.  They need to be convinced that Cleveland is a desirable place to be, and a campus atmosphere downtown will go a long way toward convincing them.  This goes for out of town entrepreneurs too... a more lively atmosphere downtown would help lure them to Cleveland.  CSU can provide that as it keeps growing, and keeps injecting young people into downtown's population.     

If nice architecture is your criteria for a premier neighborhood, then of course most are near UC. That's because they are near Downtown. And that's because they're old neighborhoods. I thought we were talking about trendy or upscale neighborhoods, which unless I am unaware of some kind of shift, Mt. Auburn really isn't.

 

I know this is probably getting into an overly subjective realm, but I would say Hyde Park "feels" closer to UC than Mt. Adams does, because of topography and major arterials running between the two areas. I think ignoring topography and street layout when talking about this kind of thing in Cincy is really bogus.

 

Oh well, this is pretty far off topic now. That's why I didn't want to go into details initially.

 

Edit: Apparently it's not just my gut feeling (thought "closer" may have been an overstatement, Hyde Park definitely doesn't feel further):

 

To Hyde Park, 11 min.

 

To Mt. Adams, 10 min.

 

Well, I never said Hyde Park wasn't close to UC but it is further geographically vs., say, Mt. Adams.  But that's not even the entire point.  And Cincinnati really doesn't have trendy neighborhoods for "premier" status but local wealth, sure (Hyde Park, Mt. Adams).  Ignoring the fact that streets don't take you where you need to go in 5 minutes is irrelevant to geographical proximity.

 

The point of architecture due to proximity to the core is the point.  Edale pointed out that most of Columbus' "premier neighborhoods" are near OSU, which implies OSU is desireable when in fact, it's not.  Columbus "premier" neighborhoods are located towards downtown, not OSU aka the old core.  Ditto with Cincinnati.

If OSU were as powerful  and as much of an economic boom for development and investment in Columbus's neighborhoods as suggested by some, then I don't how you explain Weinland Park, which despite being a University District sub-neighborhood ranks as one of our worst neighborhoods (compared to other Columbus hoods) with gang activity, drugs, petty and violent crime. Columbus' near-downtown neighborhoods blossomed just like others with a focus on streetcar-oriented neighborhoods which transported residents in and out of Downtown. If those aren't organic just because of the existence of a government and university, I don't know what could be considered as such.

 

Outside of the unbearable bros who frequent Park St, you actually don't notice OSU until you head up near campus. The biggest festivals here: Gay Pride, Comfest, and Red White and Boom all take place in Downtown and/or the Short North.

^OSU is taking a lot of interest in the Weinland park area now. They have an early childhood eduction center there attached to the elementary school(although the demographic is not representative of the neighborhood), and they have an official representative of OSU in the Weinland park community now. However, most of this is not for the benefit of the residents but for the perception of parents of OSU students. OSU is definately not welcome in the community.

If OSU were as powerful and as much of an economic boom for development and investment in Columbus's neighborhoods as suggested by some, then I don't how you explain Weinland Park, which despite being a University District sub-neighborhood ranks as one of our worst neighborhoods (compared to other Columbus hoods) with gang activity, drugs, petty and violent crime. Columbus' near-downtown neighborhoods blossomed just like others with a focus on streetcar-oriented neighborhoods which transported residents in and out of Downtown. If those aren't organic just because of the existence of a government and university, I don't know what could be considered as such.

 

Outside of the unbearable bros who frequent Park St, you actually don't notice OSU until you head up near campus. The biggest festivals here: Gay Pride, Comfest, and Red White and Boom all take place in Downtown and/or the Short North.

 

Are you arguing OSU does not have a significant economic impact on the city of Columbus? 

Even though I'm from here, I feel somewhat left out of Columbus culture because I didn't attend OSU. Almost all of my friends here are blue-collar guys, and we are really disconnected with High Street culture even though we've partied there, work close to there, have been to plenty of events in the area, have no aversion to it and follow OSU football. There's really two cultures in Columbus -- the one revolving around OSU and its associated activities, which also includes UA, Grandview, and even Dublin, Worthington, Westerville to some degree, and then there's everyone else. We sometimes get tired of everything happening in one place -- for example, seeing bands. In Cincy, there's places all over town to see live music. I suppose Columbus does have live music in places other than around campus, but it's gonna be Nickelback covers in a strip mall.

Well, really, there are only two venues connected to Ohio State: anything on campus or Newport (Agora).  The rest of the music venues in Columbus are either downtown, in Northland (Alaroa Villa or whatever), German Village/Brewery District, or if you're black, Whitehall.  It's a good spread over the area.  I don't do the stripmall bar-karaoke thing but I did go to Momo2 once...that was...interesting...

To bring this back on topic and to answer some of the original questions:

 

5,000 to 15,000 more students at Cleveland State would generate more investment and jobs in the area.  A diverse, educated and talented pool of potential workers would attract more businesses to the area.  The result might be to have Euclid Avenue back to the way it was in the 70's and 80's with full storefronts and crowded sidewalks from Public Square to East 30th.  Investing in CSU's growth is as good as any other idea I've heard for revitalizing downtown.

 

Then again, I might be a bit biased.  5,000 to 15,000 more students would skyrocket sales in the store.

Where these universities ended up within the cities was often totally random.  UC is where it is because they put it in a park.  If Jacob (or was it Joseph?) Burnett hadn't donated his farm back around 1830, or if he had bought a different farm to begin with, when Cincinnati went to start a municipal university, it would have ended up somewhere else.  Where, I don't know, probably on the edge of town but probably not in the Mill Creek Valley because that land was too valuable for industry (but not, apparently in the 1870's, too valuable for dead bodies). 

 

It was somewhat inevitable that all the hospitals would end up in this hilltop area, but UC's location is random.  UC wasn't a major node of activity until after the streetcar era, which is why Clifton Avenue in front of McMicken hall is residential and UC has its weird relationship with the McMillan/Calhoun, Short Vine, and Ludlow business districts.  It's within walking distance of each, but the topography of the university doesn't naturally lead to any of them.   

 

 

 

 

What are the positives for cities like Columbus, Cincinnati, Toledo, and Akron with having such large state schools?

 

I can't speak for Cincinnati, Columbus, and Akron, but in Toledo, the university is basically the last bastion of wealth production left in the area. The city and the region have economically plummeted into the sewers of Detroit, but the University of Toledo has actually gotten wealthier (endowment growth plus jacking up tuition). Its transition into a residential campus is also sparking some spinoff development. The problem is Toledo cannot attract wealthy students like Miami, Ohio, and Ohio State can. The kids at Toledo don't party as much, and nightlife around campus suffers. It's nothing like Court Street or High Street, or even Main Street BG. UT kids are probably the hardest-working in the state. Many of them have full-time jobs while going to school, something that is rare at wealthier schools. In my experience, UT kids have far better work ethic than kids from other schools. But none of this matters. Working harder doesn't get you anywhere in life if you're in a dead-end job in a dead-end place. Working smarter is the answer. That's where Toledo falls flat on its ass.

 

There seems to be an increasing gap in The Midwest between "prestigious" schools and "second choice" schools. What this basically means is that a Big Ten school is worth a hell of a lot more than a MAC school. And if you're not a Big Ten school, you might as well be a party school (OU). UT kids face the fiercest job competition of perhaps anyone in the country. They're fighting for very limited (alright, non-existent) jobs in Toledo against Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, etc. grads. In short, they stand a slim chance in hell, so they might want to get cute and pull out all the nepotism stops in the book. It's becoming common practice at some businesses to only look at Big Ten grads. If UT were a Big Ten school, it'd do a lot more for the city than it does as a MAC school.

 

Toledo is a unique case where the economy is so bad, damn near 80% of graduates have to move away after graduation (and keep in mind many UT kids are natives of the region). It's the most pronounced brain drain in America. Toledo has the highest rate of college enrollment of any top 100 metro area in the country, but one of the lowest rates of college grads aged 25 and up. It's just incredible how many college-educated people move way. It's impossible to even fathom if you're not from this area. Universities can't save cities (or at least major industrial cities of 300,000 people like Toledo). They can create a bubble of wealth and the illusion of success, but as far as trickle down, UT is the last place you'd expect to see it. Just south of campus are the increasingly hopeless slums of West-Central Toledo. Some of the campus party stores have bullet proof glass wrapping around the worker area. And a year or two ago, the BP station at UT had a brutal murder of a store clerk. UT kids are aware there are certain streets and neighborhoods near campus that are best to be avoided, particularly at night. It seems the kids have to be more on edge when they go out and nightlife can be a hybrid of preppy college kid mixed with convicted felon ghetto. As Toledo continues its descent, the contrast between the city and the university is growing larger and larger. The campus just doesn't have a "fun" vibe as a result of its streetcar suburb/destroyed urban location, and the increasingly bad reputation of some of the neighborhoods around it. It could be so much more, but the history of being a commuter school and open admission are holding it back.

 

The tripod of economic stability in America is education + healthcare + defense. You also want to be big in finance. It's plain to see why Columbus has an economy that will always kick ass. Toledo is a duopod of healthcare and education, and that's not enough to save it. And there is a size issue. Toledo is not large enough to support all its education and Level 1 trauma centers. It's a training ground to get to somewhere else. I've never heard a UT kid say "I can't wait to get a job in Toledo." It's usually far more along the lines of, "I can't wait to get the f$&k out of Toledo."

 

As a result of this, urban neighborhoods for young educated people are very limited (pretty much just the Old West End). Toledo is seriously lacking yuppies (there are a few in Downtown Perrysburg) and hipsters (Maumee??). No city can be successful without a large class of young, college-educated kids who spend money like there is no tomorrow. Toledo doesn't have this. There are no big spenders, and businesses of all stripes are hurting. Toledoans save every penny they make today because they know they could be out of a job tomorrow. That's a serious problem, and an attitude that retards economic growth, and certainly urban development. No risk = no growth.

 

For extremely depressing statistics:

http://www.toledoblade.com/article/20100509/NEWS16/5090315

 

Personally I think a university is a huge benefit to a city as it brings young, energetic, educated people to the city and brings the city alive.  Even if just a few of those students develop a strong connection with that Univeristy, it will cumulatively have an impact.  They also inject a lot of money into the cities and can have a strong impact on the surrounding neighborhoods.

 

I think Akron and Toledo have some interesting similarities and differences.  First, UofA is really a strong driving force in the city, especially in Downtown.  I estimate that UofA has expanded in footprint about 60% in the past 15 years.  It has expanded away from downtown, taking some of that horrible off campus housing with it.  It has also expanded into downtown where it now has a strong influence.  I have personally seen downtown Akron go from a place nobody ventured to in the early 90's to a place where there is now student housing on Main Street.  Sure, the city and UofA have to work together, but WOW, what a difference!  UofA also initiated the Univeristy Park Alliance, a group aimed at improving the neighborhoods immediately around campus.  The progress is slow, but you can see it happening.

 

I also see Akron students like UT students.  Most have to work to pay their way through school, very much blue collar.  I wear this "blue collar" badge proudly as often at work, when it comes to getting  your hands dirty, the "Blue Collar" students are the ones to jump in and "get 'er done".  As one of my coworkers put it, some schools put out "Thinkers" and some put out "Doers" and a successful company needs both.  Akron and UT may not be the most prestigious, but I know a lot of companies going after Akron Graduates. 

 

On the flip side, Akron, unlike Toledo, has done a slightly better job of retaining it's large manufacturing headquarters.  Both Goodyear and Bridgestone are building new corporate headquarters in Akron and I know quite a few Akron grads who work in Akron.  Now don't get me wrong, Akron has had to do it's fair share of downsizing, but I wonder what state the city would be in now if it did not have a strong, growing University? 

 

Personally, I think Cleveland is at a disadvantage by not having a "dominant" university associated with it.  I know it has Cleveland State and Case, but do they add up to an OSU, UC, UA, or UT?  I don't know that I can answer that.  What I do know is that I hope CSU keeps it's status as a "Minor" school because as an Akron fan, if we ever become good in one of the major sports, that "local" Cleveland market could really bring in some fans! 

To bring this back on topic and to answer some of the original questions:

 

5,000 to 15,000 more students at Cleveland State would generate more investment and jobs in the area. A diverse, educated and talented pool of potential workers would attract more businesses to the area. The result might be to have Euclid Avenue back to the way it was in the 70's and 80's with full storefronts and crowded sidewalks from Public Square to East 30th. Investing in CSU's growth is as good as any other idea I've heard for revitalizing downtown.

 

Then again, I might be a bit biased. 5,000 to 15,000 more students would skyrocket sales in the store.

 

You've got it backwards.  More jobs would attract more students.  We already have far more students/graduates than we have jobs for and that has been the case since the 1970's or even earlier. 

"Personally, I think Cleveland is at a disadvantage by not having a "dominant" university associated with it.  I know it has Cleveland State and Case, but do they add up to an OSU, UC, UA, or UT? "

 

 

If you add up CWRU, CIM, CIA, Clevelant State, OCPM, Dike (or whatever it is called now) etc. you probalby get about 35,000 students.  That is close to Ohio State and larger than any of the rest. 

"Personally, I think Cleveland is at a disadvantage by not having a "dominant" university associated with it. I know it has Cleveland State and Case, but do they add up to an OSU, UC, UA, or UT? "

 

 

If you add up CWRU, CIM, CIA, Clevelant State, OCPM, Dike (or whatever it is called now) etc. you probalby get about 35,000 students. That is close to Ohio State and larger than any of the rest.

 

Trouble is, adding them up is not equal to one big whopper.  Many you listed have no campus life component at all.

To bring this back on topic and to answer some of the original questions:

 

5,000 to 15,000 more students at Cleveland State would generate more investment and jobs in the area.  A diverse, educated and talented pool of potential workers would attract more businesses to the area.  The result might be to have Euclid Avenue back to the way it was in the 70's and 80's with full storefronts and crowded sidewalks from Public Square to East 30th.  Investing in CSU's growth is as good as any other idea I've heard for revitalizing downtown.

 

Then again, I might be a bit biased.  5,000 to 15,000 more students would skyrocket sales in the store.

 

You've got it backwards.  More jobs would attract more students.  We already have far more students/graduates than we have jobs for and that has been the case since the 1970's or even earlier. 

 

CSU has always had increases in enrollment in a down economy.  Now they are improving campus life and attracting a higher caliber student.  Companies looking to relocate or expand might look upon this growth as an opportunity to build its talent pool.  Is that backwards, I think not.

 

It is a long term proposition.  To handle another 5,000 students CSU would have to build more classrooms and hire more faculty and staff.  This does not happen overnight.  Educated talent and jobs must grow together, but the talent has to be ready.

UC rarely had more than 5000 students until the post-WWII period and the same is basically true of most colleges - since most folks didn't start completing high school until the Great Depression and after.

 

Higher Ed is at the end of a couple of overlapping bubbles that will likely pop soon. Unfortunately for Cleveland, the rest of the Ohio University System has absolutely no vested interest in seeing CSU continue to grow. Lots of schools in the state make a lot of money off Cleveland residents (Tri-C as well, since the community colleges are as big a deal as the four year institutions).