Kind of a sad but interesting look at tbe Flats today.  Not the most professional video, but the pop ups are very informative to someone who doesn't really know that much about the Flats clubbing history.

 

 

^ Enjoyed that film!  Wow, maybe the musical accompaniment should have included "TAPS"

That video almost makes me want to cry.  I have no problem laying much of the blame for its demise on Mike White.

Blame the beach club, and anyone else who turned into 18 and over dance clubs.  Add in psycho doormen at the basement.  The Wolstiens letting any club that would pay the rent in.

 

By the time White actually tried to clean up the flats, it was too far gone. 

W. 6th also stole a lot of the crowd the bars desired and left the riff-raff.

For those of us who missed that era of the "fun" Flats, maybe we can start a photo thread of when it was a great place? I've seen very, very few photos of the place when it was actually operational, and I really don't have a good grasp of what it must have been like. Does anyone have any?

For those of us who missed that era of the "fun" Flats, maybe we can start a photo thread of when it was a great place? I've seen very, very few photos of the place when it was actually operational, and I really don't have a good grasp of what it must have been like. Does anyone have any?

 

I think we have some threads in UrbanBar about the flats.  You kids missed a damn good time! HA!

For those of us who missed that era of the "fun" Flats, maybe we can start a photo thread of when it was a great place? I've seen very, very few photos of the place when it was actually operational, and I really don't have a good grasp of what it must have been like. Does anyone have any?

Some here:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,15109.0.html

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,15109.msg257953.html#msg257953

does anyone else have any pictures?

My two most memorable nights in the Flats were the biccentenial (1997?) and New Year's Eve (2000).... after seeing the Isley Bros. perform on Public Square first of course.

Cleaveland, er Cleveland, was founded in 1796.

My two most memorable nights in the Flats were the biccentenial (1997?) and New Year's Eve (2000).... after seeing the Isley Bros. perform on Public Square first of course.

 

I was not down there for New Years 2000, in fact I think I was at Spy bar. However, My favorites were in either 95 or 97 when they were televising World Series Games from Nautica on the Big Screen.  the bars were grrrreat on those nights.  then of course, there were som random nights throughout the 90's that were fun.  Mostly every labor day weekend was a blast in the flats. 

My favorite memory was the Sohio Riverfests and Aquilon.  Sitting along the water on one of the decks with friends on a summer evening after work while the sun went down was magical.

 

My theory on what probably fueled the growth of the flats in the early years is this.  Ohio was one of the last states to raise the drinking age to 21....it was (reluctantly) raised from 19 to 21 in 1987 per Federal mandate.  If you turned 19 before July 1987, you were grandfathered in and were allowed to drink even after the law became 21.  So technically many 19 and 20 year olds could legally drink in Ohio through 88 and 89. 

 

All bordering States had raised the age to 21 way before that (except W VA).  This had to be a huge draw from other states for tourism of young people and helped fuel the boom of the flats in the early years.  It became infamous for underage partying, and kind of kept that reputation and momentum through the 90's.  I think that is why there was lax enforcement of the 21 drinking age and so many 18+ bars.  By the mid-90's it was already starting to show signs that the party was dying out as the WHD started to become a new destination for older folks. 

 

I think the change in the drinking age was the first nail in the coffin, and it started to die a very slow death from that point on.

 

On that note...Toledo's Portside Market place was aslo very popular in the late 80's.  I think there was a Shooters there as well, with Rockin on the River festivals every Friday on the Promenade.  For underage Michiganders it was like a border town like a modern day Mexico or Canada.

 

 

 

http://www.clevelandindependent.com/2010/01/20/who-killed-the-flats/

I believe this place can be superior to what it was... Much more dynamic and diverse in what it offers. I read the article someone posted above "Who Killed The Flats" and if it is all true about what M. White was doing to harass the independents...and bully the place into hiring blacks, then by all means a lot of the decline was inevitable. However, at the same time, there were a lot of places down there that were just turning into crap all on their own.

 

My best memory was going to Noisemakers (ironically!) in '88...'89... Yes, anyone who did not get a chance to see the place at this time..oh you missed a great time! But all that is dead....time to see if we can get this place into something more respectable now than a pile of dirt.

I believe this place can be superior to what it was... Much more dynamic and diverse in what it offers. I read the article someone posted above "Who Killed The Flats" and if it is all true about what M. White was doing to harass the independents...and bully the place into hiring blacks, then by all means a lot of the decline was inevitable. However, at the same time, there were a lot of places down there that were just turning into crap all on their own.

 

My best memory was going to Noisemakers (ironically!) in '88...'89... Yes, anyone who did not get a chance to see the place at this time..oh you missed a great time! But all that is dead....time to see if we can get this place into something more respectable now than a pile of dirt.

 

By no means should it be as dirty/crappy as it used to be, but it would be nice that along with whatever other development goes on down there that there are at least a few more nice restaurants/bars.  Perhaps a few more like Shooters.

^ Yes, that would be nice, but we have to ask ourselves whether or not we have enough bars/restaurants already.... to sustain the current numbers of those who visit such. Maybe we need less of the bar scene types and more of some of something else. Otherwise, we build new....people get tired of the old, abandon it...frequent the new...and the process/cycle continues, always leaving us with some empty hole somewhere. It is just something to contemplate.

 

Personally, and I can speak for probably many who would feel the same, I hate bars and am over it. I am ready for something different near there.... like combining elements of parks, museums, aquarium, galleries and a few quality restaurants/watering holes...and maybe a dance place or two interspersed here and there. Maybe some more small water tours...rentals, residences where many will become stakeholders in the neighborhood and who won't party, trash it...then leave a mess by the morning as the puke dries on the street.  :drunk:

NO we do not have enough bars.  Waterside dining establishments are prime and offer a good return on investment.  Did more dining on East 4th hurt West 6th?  No.  If developed properly this will be more than just restaurants but a true neighborhood benefiting all of downtown and near downtown.

Ditto on the waterside dining sentiment.  And whatever your opinion of the Flats in the 1990s, they did something that few current Cleveland bar districts do--bring in people from outside of the region.

The boating crowd is a deep pocketed bunch that Downtown has been missing out on recently.  Shooters is really the only destination now for quick dock and eat/drink visits.

If you knew any of the bar owners in the late 1990's they all said Mike White sent the inspectors in to shut them down without even giving them a chance to correct code violations of varying degrees.  Now, granted, places like Fagans had more than others, but the vast majority were minor infractions that could have been corrected.  Wolstein was waiting in the wings for the land grab, and we should all collectively blame him for what is there now.

 

Cleveland's viable tourist destination was systematically wiped off the map in a backroom deal designed to enrich the private/public partnership of Wolstein and White. 

 

 

Glad to see Wolstein finally delivering after killing our tourist destination!

I don't know if everyone saw the article, but Wolstein stepped down as Chairman of DDR this week

 

http://crainscleveland.com/article/20110216/FREE/110219905

Glad to see Wolstein finally delivering after killing our tourist destination!

 

You said it. I am not really optimistic that the Flats will "come back" in my lifetime.  The way that area was completely destroyed was extraordinary, maybe even unprecedented. And for many long time Clevelanders I know, it was the last straw. They lost faith in the city.

 

I sorta view Wolstein as the Art Modell of the East Bank. He made the moves he thought was necessary at the time. But the clear result of his decisions pin a certain villain status on him.

I am too young to really remember the Flats in its best days besides a couple of trips there during the day with my dad prior to Browns games and Indians games, but I am old enough to remember the post 2000 3 or 4 year seedy stage, where there were still a lot of bars open but quite honestly they were pretty crappy. Mike White may have did what he did, but I think that the Campbell Administration were the one's who were in a position to resurect the Flats but they neglected it leading to the eastbanks death. Am I out of line on this? Or had Wolstein already locked up most of the land rights that he needed by that point and was slowing strangling the remaining businesses?

Burnham,

 

I will give a it shot to answer your question from my perspective. The Flats ultimately failed for one reason:

 

The rise of The Warehouse District.

 

I had been going down to to the Flats since the late eighties. Toward the end of it's run, the bar owners spent little or no money to maintain their establishments and flashier, classier places were starting to pop up in the Warehouse district. Before long, anyone over the age of twenty five and with money starting to go  the Warehouse District instead of the Flats. As the Flats owners starting losing more and more customers, they turned to the ultimate entertainment establishment killer; Really cheap beer and over 18 nights.

 

Anytime a bar starts doing that, it's the beginning of the death spiral. Due to this, the only thing the Flats was attracting was underage kids(with a boatload of testerone) and thugs who could get lit up on ten bucks then cause trouble. The Flats got rougher and people started retreating to the safety of the Warehouse District in droves.

 

The last three times I went to the Flats I got into some altercation and I'm not a fighter at all. After the third incident I never returned and started hanging out in the Warehouse district.

 

I think the last draw was when they found a pretty young girl murdered.

 

Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I hope that helps.

 

... Ohio was one of the last states to raise the drinking age to 21....it was (reluctantly) raised from 19 to 21 in 1987 per Federal mandate.  If you turned 19 before July 1987, you were grandfathered in and were allowed to drink even after the law became 21.  So technically many 19 and 20 year olds could legally drink in Ohio through 88 and 89.

 

Not true.  I turned 21 in '86 and the drinking age had been 21 for many years, at least since the 70's.  Before that 18 year olds could only buy 3.2% beer.  Maybe you are talking about 1977 instead of 1987.

There is no one villain of the Flats' demise. The Flats was always known as an edgy place, going back into the 1950s, 60s and 70s with bars like the Amsterdam, Flat Iron, D'Poos, Fagans and other establishments. There were biker bars, mob hangouts and shot-n-beer pubs where longshoremen from the docks came to drink before and after work. The Flats began attracting downtown workers for lunch to watch the boats go by and became a more accepted place to a larger audience. More restaurants opened. It became a family-friendly place with Sohio's Riverfest in the 1980s. More clubs and restaurants opened, including national chains. During the day, families would come down. At night, it was turned over to young adults and parents who kept their kids at home.

 

There were always a few shady characters down there, including among the owners of bars. In 1985, the owner of Diamond Jim's, James Vinci, was executed in a professional hit because he was going to testify against his mob buddies in an upcoming trial. His wife Rida and daughter Rosemary took over the place and changed its name to Shorty's. Rosemary, a close confidant of disgraced Commissioner Jimmy Dimora, was found dead (ruled as non-suspicious!) in her home. She previously managed Tiffany's strip bar in the Flats.

 

But I believe the decline started in the mid-1990s as more shady people began buying bars and clubs. The reggae club called Splash was a Jamaican drug dealers hangout. Tony George was an investor in that club but the principal was Blaise Brucato who was arrested for money laundering. Then later that year, outside the Flat Iron Cafe, two men who worked for George and formerly worked for then-La Cosa Nostra boss Joe "Loose" Iacobacci were shot by several Lake County drug dealers. One of the men who was shot, Michael Roman, died. The other guy, a convicted felon, later bought a bar on Old River Road, as did other shady characters.

 

That became the trend. Whatever wasn't owned by a national chain became the property of a motley group. They were connected with City Hall, now led by Mayor Mike White, and the county where Russo and Dimora ruled. Either could get city or county health officials to look the other way. Cops could address smaller crimes but when it came to prepare complaints and cases against the clubs' owners for repeated offenses, there would be interference from City Hall. And there were lots of repeated offenses. Every night by the late 90s, fights would break out inside and out front of clubs. The crowds got rougher and less family friendly. Chain restaurants like Hooters, Dick's Last Resort and Joe's Crab Shack, packed up and left. The old Riverfest, later Flatsfest, was canceled. Streets became cluttered with garbage with no clean up crews showed up to clean the streets before the next night of partying. The Flats East Bank literally began to stink. There were several drownings and shootings, and the Flats got a reputation as being unsafe. Independent restaurants and bars began to close. The Flats East Bank would be Party Central seven days a week. Now, it only gathered crowds on the weekends and then, much reduced from the Mardi Gras-like atmosphere in the late-80s and early-90s.

 

By the early 2000s, Wolstein stepped in and started buying up properties. I started covering Cleveland City Hall for Sun News in 2005 when Wolstein's Flats East Bank project began to crystalize. Many of the mobbed-up Flats bar owners refused to sell to Wolstein who enlisted the help of Mayor Jane Campbell to seize blighted properties by eminent domain. Slam Jams bar owner and convicted felon Tony George, through his fake Citizens for Good Government, sought the help of City Council to stop Mayor Campbell's administration. When council wasn't as helpful as George wanted, he sponsored an effort to reduce the size of council. Councilman Joe Cimperman urged the bar owners to step aside for Wolstein's project to which George allegedly replied "Blow me."

 

The bar owners were the real cancer on the Flats, especially on the East Bank. But even on the West Bank there were troubles, with more than 250 reported incidents of crime like assaults, gunfire, riots, and armed robberies between 2004-06. The worst was at Mirage where three people were killed in one year -- the same Mirage where county auditor Frank Russo held a fundraiser and lobbied to keep the club open when the city, under Campbell, tried to shut it down.

 

The Flats destroyed itself through over-indulgence, neglect, greed and corruption. I would have preferred the old physical form of the Flats and tough oversight by the police and city officials. But the city didn't want the responsibility any more. Wolstein offered the city an easy way out, and I can't blame him or them for taking it. The Flats was a wonderful ride and will probably never be what it was again. Perhaps the only place that might come close again is the part of the Flats under the Detroit-Superior and RTA bridges. Maybe the rowing society and the skate park may help bring back the youthful, edgy fun that Flats once offered without going overboard as the East Bank did.

 

Not true.  I turned 21 in '86 and the drinking age had been 21 for many years, at least since the 70's.  Before that 18 year olds could only buy 3.2% beer.  Maybe you are talking about 1977 instead of 1987.

 

I was 19 in 1986 and could buy regular beer in Ohio. But it was 21 for all other kind of alcohol. It became 21 for everything in 1987 -- I was grandfathered in. :-D

^That's right, I should have stated it was 19 for regular beer...and 21 for everything else.  The 21 rule was loosely enforced once you were in the bars.  I was grandfathered in as well.

Agree with stpats44113 but I think the story continues from there.  At some point the current plan was floated and the city decided to back it 100%, to the point of forcing out all the old owners so they could tear down all the old buildings.  Long story short, I don't think that was the only option available when things started to go downhill.  But the powers that be wanted this project to happen and therefore needed the old Flats to go away.

I completely agree with 327. That would have been the second part of the answer if I wasn't being lazy.

another major contributor was the complete lack of security.

 

Almost all of the parking on the East bank was at least a block away from the bars.  The lots weren't owned by the bars.  Nobody did any real security outside their own doors.

 

Armed robberies, assaults, and rapes that happened in the outlying parking lots weren't the "problem" of the bar owners.  so they did nothing about it.

 

During the peak they were minting money, had lines, cover charges, turned people away.  They saw no need for the "unnecessary" expense of safety....until it was too late.

 

That is one reason people are worried about the warehouse district going down the same path.  Bar owners who don't seem to "care" about what happens outside their doors. 

 

 

Agree with stpats44113 but I think the story continues from there.  At some point the current plan was floated and the city decided to back it 100%, to the point of forcing out all the old owners so they could tear down all the old buildings.  Long story short, I don't think that was the only option available when things started to go downhill.  But the powers that be wanted this project to happen and therefore needed the old Flats to go away.

 

You're correct 327.    Forcing is the correct word.  And it was under the White Administration because I remember it well--one day city inspectors just showed up and shut down most of the business on Old River Road for both major and minor building code violations.  Businesses that had been operation for YEARS in those locations (Fagans and Peabody's come to mind) were forced to go without any chance to correct said violations. 

 

I just wish that Wolstein's new development plan could have been woven into the existing fabric.

 

Hindsight...right....

 

It would have psychologically provided more of a connection with the history and familiar architecture that made the Flats unique.

 

Anyway, much thanks for the thoughtful and thorough retrospective KJP.

 

There is no one villain of the Flats' demise. The Flats was always known as an edgy place, going back into the 1950s, 60s and 70s with bars like the Amsterdam, Flat Iron, D'Poos, Fagans and other establishments. There were biker bars, mob hangouts and shot-n-beer pubs where longshoremen from the docks came to drink before and after work. The Flats began attracting downtown workers for lunch to watch the boats go by and became a more accepted place to a larger audience. More restaurants opened. It became a family-friendly place with Sohio's Riverfest in the 1980s. More clubs and restaurants opened, including national chains. During the day, families would come down. At night, it was turned over to young adults and parents who kept their kids at home.

 

There were always a few shady characters down there, including among the owners of bars. In 1985, the owner of Diamond Jim's, James Vinci, was executed in a professional hit because he was going to testify against his mob buddies in an upcoming trial. His wife Rida and daughter Rosemary took over the place and changed its name to Shorty's. Rosemary, a close confidant of disgraced Commissioner Jimmy Dimora, was found dead (ruled as non-suspicious!) in her home. She previously managed Tiffany's strip bar in the Flats.

 

But I believe the decline started in the mid-1990s as more shady people began buying bars and clubs. The reggae club called Splash was a Jamaican drug dealers hangout. Tony George was an investor in that club but the principal was Blaise Brucato who was arrested for money laundering. Then later that year, outside the Flat Iron Cafe, two men who worked for George and formerly worked for then-La Cosa Nostra boss Joe "Loose" Iacobacci were shot by several Lake County drug dealers. One of the men who was shot, Michael Roman, died. The other guy, a convicted felon, later bought a bar on Old River Road, as did other shady characters.

 

That became the trend. Whatever wasn't owned by a national chain became the property of a motley group. They were connected with City Hall, now led by Mayor Mike White, and the county where Russo and Dimora ruled. Either could get city or county health officials to look the other way. Cops could address smaller crimes but when it came to prepare complaints and cases against the clubs' owners for repeated offenses, there would be interference from City Hall. And there were lots of repeated offenses. Every night by the late 90s, fights would break out inside and out front of clubs. The crowds got rougher and less family friendly. Chain restaurants like Hooters, Dick's Last Resort and Joe's Crab Shack, packed up and left. The old Riverfest, later Flatsfest, was canceled. Streets became cluttered with garbage with no clean up crews showed up to clean the streets before the next night of partying. The Flats East Bank literally began to stink. There were several drownings and shootings, and the Flats got a reputation as being unsafe. Independent restaurants and bars began to close. The Flats East Bank would be Party Central seven days a week. Now, it only gathered crowds on the weekends and then, much reduced from the Mardi Gras-like atmosphere in the late-80s and early-90s.

 

By the early 2000s, Wolstein stepped in and started buying up properties. I started covering Cleveland City Hall for Sun News in 2005 when Wolstein's Flats East Bank project began to crystalize. Many of the mobbed-up Flats bar owners refused to sell to Wolstein who enlisted the help of Mayor Jane Campbell to seize blighted properties by eminent domain. Slam Jams bar owner and convicted felon Tony George, through his fake Citizens for Good Government, sought the help of City Council to stop Mayor Campbell's administration. When council wasn't as helpful as George wanted, he sponsored an effort to reduce the size of council. Councilman Joe Cimperman urged the bar owners to step aside for Wolstein's project to which George allegedly replied "Blow me."

 

The bar owners were the real cancer on the Flats, especially on the East Bank. But even on the West Bank there were troubles, with more than 250 reported incidents of crime like assaults, gunfire, riots, and armed robberies between 2004-06. The worst was at Mirage where three people were killed in one year -- the same Mirage where county auditor Frank Russo held a fundraiser and lobbied to keep the club open when the city, under Campbell, tried to shut it down.

 

The Flats destroyed itself through over-indulgence, neglect, greed and corruption. I would have preferred the old physical form of the Flats and tough oversight by the police and city officials. But the city didn't want the responsibility any more. Wolstein offered the city an easy way out, and I can't blame him or them for taking it. The Flats was a wonderful ride and will probably never be what it was again. Perhaps the only place that might come close again is the part of the Flats under the Detroit-Superior and RTA bridges. Maybe the rowing society and the skate park may help bring back the youthful, edgy fun that Flats once offered without going overboard as the East Bank did.

Indeed, thanks for that writeup KJP.  Good stuff.  I can't get on board with the "easy way out" approach but I think it's important to understand how it came to that.

Don't underestimate the emergence of the WHD as at least a factor in the Flats' demise.  It pulled a vital, balancing (if you will) crowd up the hill and left the Flats as mainly a nightclub destination.

Thanks for the account. KJP. That explains a lot. I do agree with the posters who wish that more of the previous structures could have been incorporated, especially given the scope of the project currently.

 

Have you ever tried your hand at writing fiction? You have a great start to a lightly fictionalize murder-crime mystery. Enough seedy characters and corrupt officials for a whole series, in fact. Start with the investigation of the  murder of one of the club owners around 2002 and work the story to the days of the longshoreman's bars.  You could do for Cleveland what Pelcanos did for DC in crime fiction.

I don't think this city is too small to have two very different types of entertainment and restaurant districts. After all, the Warehouse District is still viable even though East Fourth opened.

 

I remember hearing the complaints at City Hall and among business owners that the Flats didn't offer enough mixed uses to tame the bar scene down there. In the latter years of the Voinovich administration, there were plans for offices, hotels and more housing to mix things up and dilute the Flats' wildness. Few of those plans came to pass when the White administration came in. He pissed off too many legitimate developers so they went elsewhere, including up the hill to the Warehouse District.

I didn't mean to imply he city was too small.  But the WHD offered a much calmer, more relaxed atmosphere.  The people that wanted the rowdiness stayed down in the Flats.  The people that didn't began to frequent the WHD and their diluting effect was lost down in the Flats.

Very interesting read.  It does seem like good material for a book

 

This is just a kick in the balls.

 

I refuse to believe anyone other than the city officials and Wolstein deserve the blame.  If Bourbon St can survive as long as it has then there's no reason the Flats couldn't have survived.  Truly the most depressing thing to think about.  I think I read it was the #2 tourist destination in all of Ohio behind Cedar Point at one time.  I was born 15-20 years too late.  The Warehouse district can't even come close to comparing to the old Flats.

I love all the boats!

I refuse to believe anyone other than the city officials and Wolstein deserve the blame.  If Bourbon St can survive as long as it has then there's no reason the Flats couldn't have survived.  Truly the most depressing thing to think about.  I think I read it was the #2 tourist destination in all of Ohio behind Cedar Point at one time.  I was born 15-20 years too late.  The Warehouse district can't even come close to comparing to the old Flats.

 

The Flats were emptying out long before Wolstein started buying up property. The proprietors on Bourbon Street are united together to promote and strengthen their area for the long term. Many proprietors in the Flats saw it as a short-term parasitic opportunity -- don't spend on security and upkeep, be a careless landlord, build up debts and eat up all the profits. Leave an empty shell. Move on to the next opportunity. The city is littered with areas like this due to cancerous business practices like this. Hang out with a few mob guys for a while. Their business vision does not extend past their current scam.

I think what tradtion7 was getting at is that regardless of the decline's initial causes, the permanent destruction of the old Flats was orchestrated by city hall and the Wolsteins.  Other outcomes were possible, and perhaps desirable, to put it mildly.

Ah, I see. Yes, the demolitions were. That was pretty much a scorched earth campaign.... Burn it all down and start over.

 

BTW, awesome video. Six days before that was shot, I celebrated my 28th birthday at the Indians game (in their 100-win season) and then at Dick's Last Resort. I have pictures shot from their riverside deck on that day. Now I want to look for them.

I think what tradtion7 was getting at is that regardless of the decline's initial causes, the permanent destruction of the old Flats was orchestrated by city hall and the Wolsteins.  Other outcomes were possible, and perhaps desirable, to put it mildly.

 

Once again spot on 327 and tradtion7!

 

There could have been many possible outcomes--leveling the place and having it sit as an empty field for 10 years was certainly not one we all would have voted for.

WHD was new, and over 21.  Flats was stale and 18 and over.  When Fado failed, and the arrests of the basement doormen, adults just gave up on the East bank.  Then that terrible summer happened...

^This was my point.  It certainly was not the only factor, or even the biggest factor, but it was a factor.

Wow, GREAT GREAT videos. Brings back good memories.

 

So sad to see the flats go away like they did!