I started a new thread so more Clevelanders would read my thoughts.  I just returned from the GLUE conference in your fair city and though it was my fifth time to the Mistake by the Lake (what a great mistake!), I got to know and see on a far more intimate level this time.  I will share some of my thoughts, and since STL is my frame of reference, please excuse me if there are some benign comparisons with my city. 

 

Let me start by saying WOW.  What a fine, fine, fine city you have.  I swear, if Cleveland is one of the "worst off" cities in America, then America ain't doin' so bad because Cleveland is vibrant, colorful, [relatively] clean, and full of knowledgeable, passionate, creative and ambitious people.  We took a 3-hour bus tour of the entire city and ventured off on walking tours of a number of cool 'hoods.

 

University Circle is a treasure.  I walked all over Wade Park and UC and CWU on a guided tour and was struck by how complete it is as a cultural center.  The caliber of educational, cultural and medical institutions in such close proximity is impressive as hell, and the grounds are beautiful. 

 

I love your retrofabulous Rapid stations (and Red Line trains).

 

The people in Cleveland are just cool without even trying.  They aren't flashy or pretentious, just cool and real and genuinely urban.  Everyone was friendly and helpful.

 

Cleveland has it all over STL when it comes to new infill construction.  I love your daring contemporary design.  We need much more of that. 

 

Downtown Cleveland struck me as vibrant, clean and full of things to do.  You also have a lot of basic amenities that make it a complete neighborhood.  It looks MUCH better than when I was there a few years ago.  The Lady Gaga show was there Thursday night and I enjoyed seeing all the offbeat costumes (saw lots of cute Cleveland girls in their skivvies!).  Cleveland does have cute girls.  I really got a sense of Burnham's majestic city plan.  Downtown Cleveland feels like a truly big city.  You can tell it was built to be great. 

 

E. 4th Street, while not my scene, is very well done.  It's inviting and festive; every city should have someplace like it.  Great for tourists who aren't into exploring the real city.

 

W. 6th St. should be renamed Douchebag Row.

 

Cleveland is definitely not a brick city.  I was really surprised at how few buildings are made of brick there.  It's the exact opposite of STL in this regard.  In St. Louis, you just don't see buildings that aren't brick-- EVERYTHING here is brick.  Cleveland is a frame town.  I also noticed that the vast majority of houses there have driveways, which is definitely not something you see in most St. Louis neighborhoods.  I saw some alleys in Cleveland, but not nearly as many as one would expect in an older city.  I think these features make Cleveland feel and look less "big city."  It does not strike me as a densely built city.  A lot of neighborhoods had a Mayberry small town quality.  Nevertheless, they were awesome as all get out.  All in all, St. Louis does feel more urban, but I wonder if that's due to its older age and ubiquitous red brick fabric.  STL just feels much more dense in general.

 

There is a glaring absence of pre-war highrise apartment/condo buildings in Cleveland.  I even asked one of the guides about this and she said that Cleveland just doesn't have them.  Weird.  It seems like there was a lot of wealth in the city during that era, and most big cities have a lot more than I saw there.  STL has a gazillion of them surrounding Forest Park, and a number of others in various other parts of the city.

 

One of the guides also said there are no longer wealthy neighborhoods in the city.  Is this true????  There have to be some pockets of million-dollar homes in the city limits.  Please enlighten me!

 

Great restaurants in that town, although the "hip" hoods don't have as much en masse as I expected.  The only sushi bar in Tremont is Parallax??  Their sushi menu left a lot to be desired, and it was overpriced.  Ohio City apparently has a dearth of sushi bars too.  What's up with that?  Great galleries in Tremont, and definitely a distinctive local flavor that makes the neighborhood so charming.  Love it.

 

I LOVE THE RAPID.  I love your old ass Red Line trains, they are so hardcore.  I love how the RTA makes absolutely no effort to make them user friendly.  I don't even think Stephen Hawking could figure out how to buy a f*cking ticket on that system.  I'm not kidding though-- I find that endearing.

 

I think Cleveland feels relatively safe, despite the fact that we saw someone getting arrested in front of our hotel who left a trail of blood that ran the entire length of the Arcade (we were at the Hyatt).

 

We got drunk and went to karaoke at Tina's in Detroit-Shoreway.  Holy $hit, that place is a divebar paradise!  I don't know who was cooler-- the old guy running the karaoke machine who looked like he was on life support, or his overweight wife who was there to watch him.  I feel like that was a real taste of no-frills Cleveland.  What a trip.  The soul of the city lives at Tina's.  The building itself looks like a double-wide trailer.  I have never in my life seen a better dive bar than that.  I mean it.

 

The young urbanists in Cleveland blow my mind.  Boy do they love their city, and I see why.  I just fell in love with Cleveland.  One of the other STL people at the conference said she wanted to buy a summer home in Cleveland.  That pretty much sums up what kind of conference this was-- we are city nerds!

 

I'm sure I'll think of more, but feel free to chime in or ask me anything.  What a wonderful, first-class city you have there.

 

 

 

 

Nice review. Thank you! 

 

As for million dollar mansions...there are a few pockets in the city that boast some higher end places...but these days, you probably have to venture more to the nearby Heights areas, Bratenhl, Edgewater, Anyone else chime in on this? Teardowns have destroyed a lot of the city's original density. If you look at the old post cards and books, they will "wow!" you. There are many to be found on that subject. Yes, we have much infilling to do..and we're not happy about the excess of parking lots at the moment.

 

Depending on how long you are here, (if you did not go home yet) you should check out some of the other areas in the city..the best kept secrets and so on, as well as the general Cleveland area. All is close enough to where you do not have to drive that long. We are lucky to have such a nice buffer of farming lands that can provide us with a lot of locally produced produce...as well as a great metro-park system, and national park, all within 20-25-to...45 minutes from the epicenter.

 

Well, I could go on...but I am sure others will follow. Don't forget to visit the Terminal Tower Observation platform while you're here..if you're here..... Its been a while since it has been open. Nice acclivity. Maybe check out Lakeview Cemetery too. Its a living..."dead" museum! Anyway, glad you have enjoyed yourself.

Thanks!  I also forgot a couple other observations:

 

Your Healthline BRT is just fabulous.  Well executed, seems to enjoy strong ridership and looks great.

 

The attitude in Cleveland is a little less optimistic than I would have expected.  The urbanists are very proud of their city, but they seem resigned to the fact that Cleveland is shrinking and will continue to shrink.  There also seems to be no real plan to encourage new urban development on vacant land other than urban farms.  This is similar to what I'm hearing from Detroiters about their city.  In St. Louis-- though we have suffered over the last 60 years too-- there is a general optimism that the city bottomed out several years ago and is now growing, albeit VERY modestly.  There is no talk of "right sizing" or the "shrinking city" phenomenon.  Urban agriculture is definitely becoming more commonplace here, but new eco-friendly infill is still the desired outcome for vacant land in STL. 

 

I'll think of more soon.

Actually, on the topic of encouraging urban infill on vacant land, we have one of the more aggressive city land bank organizations in the country.  And as for density, that is one of the most disappointing parts of Cleveland.  Many of the mid sized apartment buildings that were in the city have been torn down.  At one point in Hough, there was a square mile that boasted 76,000 people.  Now it's probably around 10,000.  Personally I think there is a buzz in the city lately, and it seems more positive.  I almost think with the Lebron thing finally ending, we have put it behind us and are enjoying our city.  Also a lot of up coming projects downtown, so when you come back it will be even more interesting.  I have a condo for sale if you're looking for a Cleveland summer home.

Oh yeah, the red line is the shite!

Clevelanders are severely pessimistic people in general, so it really doesn't surprise me that you didn't hear optimism. That being said there are many projects that should make the average schmoe ecstatic, i.e. Wind farms, flats east bank, medical mart, the constant expansion of the Clinic, a spectacular dining scene....the list goes on and on.  I'm happy you loved your visit to the Cle, it'd be impossible not to ;), and your observations were very accurate, especially with the housing stock, Cleveland and other Great Lake cities are predominantly wood framed structures; from Collinwood to West Park it's the duckbill doubles. There's so much to see, and while you had a quick visit, you managed to get a nice cursorary review of a great city. Btw, I have family in STL and I always enjoy my visit to the City. Cle and STL have so many hardship similarities that us urbanists are constantly working to overcome.

As noted, Cleveland used to have more apartment buildings, but when the city began depopulating, there was a decided effort to remove multifamily housing, especially in the neighborhood where it was most predominant- Hough. 

 

Cleveland also used to have more alleys.  It was also a decided effort to get rid of them, and vacate them to adjoining property owners.

Make no mistake-- CLEVELAND IS ONE OF THE COOLEST CITIES ON THE PLANET.  I loved it before this visit, but I had an epiphany this time.  I feel like I really found Cleveland's soul.  The people are the city.  Clevelanders are absolutely wonderful.  I feel very connected to the city now.  I invite all of you to visit STL anytime.  I think you would all appreciate it very much, as the two cities share a great deal in common.  I miss Cleveland already.

Great stories, and your assessment is right on.  Cleveland is great quirky city...and really easy place to have a good time.  STL and it's people are so similar from my travels there, completely agree.  The one thing I didn't like in STL was the difficulty in getting a cab...I almost got stranded after a bar closed, but a nice patron offered me a ride to my hotel when he saw me frantically calling cabs and said "You'll never get one to come".  In Cleveland I have actually never had a problem, 99% of bouncers or door people call one for you and they show right up.  It was Mardi Gras in STL at the time though, so maybe it was just busy.  Isn't the STL Mardi Gras the 2nd largest after New Orleans? 

 

I agree on the density and architecture too...I wish Cleveland had a built environment more like Pittsburgh or Cincy....but it boomed later than rivertowns and ended up with wider streets and a lack of alleys

Before you go, visit The Cleveland Store at Tower City...  Very positive people there and some nifty items. On the population thing, there is plenty of emptiness for new construction in Cleveland; enough to hope to help lure new population and existing ones back in from the outer areas. For now, let's be the best we can be as we are and stop worrying so much about quantity...and start focusing on quality. Sometimes "less is more".

Jivecity, I'm very glad you enjoyed our fair city!  Our community has put a lot of energy over the past few years, even decades, into revitalizing the city, and it's gratifying that you were able to recognize it during your visit.

 

If I may, I'd like to add my thoughts to a few of your comments.

 

I swear, if Cleveland is one of the "worst off" cities in America, then America ain't doin' so bad because Cleveland is vibrant, colorful, [relatively] clean, and full of knowledgeable, passionate, creative and ambitious people.

 

THANK YOU.  Many of us that live here and work hard at improving our city resent the perception that Cleveland is some kind of festering pit.  To paraphrase a famous St. Louisan, the rumors of our demise have been *greatly* exaggerated.

 

W. 6th St. should be renamed Douchebag Row.

 

Lol!

 

Cleveland is definitely not a brick city.  I was really surprised at how few buildings are made of brick there.  It's the exact opposite of STL in this regard.  In St. Louis, you just don't see buildings that aren't brick-- EVERYTHING here is brick.  Cleveland is a frame town.  I also noticed that the vast majority of houses there have driveways, which is definitely not something you see in most St. Louis neighborhoods.  I saw some alleys in Cleveland, but not nearly as many as one would expect in an older city.  I think these features make Cleveland feel and look less "big city."  It does not strike me as a densely built city.  A lot of neighborhoods had a Mayberry small town quality.  Nevertheless, they were awesome as all get out.  All in all, St. Louis does feel more urban, but I wonder if that's due to its older age and ubiquitous red brick fabric.  STL just feels much more dense in general..

 

Cleveland's biggest population boom was between 1900 and 1920, during which time our population doubled to about 800,000.  It was very much the age of automobiles at that point, and such a breathtakingly rapid influx of residents required cheap housing, which meant wood. 

 

As several people have mentioned, our brick areas have largely been lost to various forces.  In the particular example of the Hough ("Huff") neighborhood, there were devastating race riots in 1968.  The powers-that-were attributed the riots primarily to overcrowding blacks in the neighborhood, and so the response was to remove multifamily housing.  Here are some pictures that show what the neighborhood used to look like:

 

http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/postcards&CISOPTR=4104&CISOBOX=1&REC=16

http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/press&CISOPTR=6284&CISOBOX=1&REC=17

http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/press&CISOPTR=6288&CISOBOX=1&REC=18

http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/press&CISOPTR=6323&CISOBOX=1&REC=14

http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/press&CISOPTR=6689&CISOBOX=1&REC=15

http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/press&CISOPTR=6366&CISOBOX=1&REC=2

 

I agree with the small-town feeling of some of our neighborhoods.  Many have their own "downtowns."  It leads to some very tight-knit communities.

 

There is a glaring absence of pre-war highrise apartment/condo buildings in Cleveland.

 

See above.

 

One of the guides also said there are no longer wealthy neighborhoods in the city.  Is this true?  There have to be some pockets of million-dollar homes in the city limits.  Please enlighten me!

 

The only real wealth left in the city proper is in the Edgewater neighborhood on the West Side.  MyTwoSense can confirm, but I think there may also be some near Shaker Square.  Bratenahl is an enclave of wealth on the mid-east side, but it's a separate municipality (though surrounded by Cleveland on three sides and the lake on the north.)

 

Great restaurants in that town, although the "hip" hoods don't have as much en masse as I expected.  The only sushi bar in Tremont is Parallax??  Their sushi menu left a lot to be desired, and it was overpriced.  Ohio City apparently has a dearth of sushi bars too.  What's up with that?  Great galleries in Tremont, and definitely a distinctive local flavor that makes the neighborhood so charming.  Love it.

 

There is a sushi place under construction in the basement of the building that houses Dante in Tremont.  Dragonfly Lounge in Ohio City was supposed to feature sushi, but they've either not gotten to that point yet, or have decided against it.  There was another place in Ohio City (across from the library) that served sushi, but it closed and the space was taken over by Le Petit Triangle.

 

The attitude in Cleveland is a little less optimistic than I would have expected.  The urbanists are very proud of their city, but they seem resigned to the fact that Cleveland is shrinking and will continue to shrink.  There also seems to be no real plan to encourage new urban development on vacant land other than urban farms.  This is similar to what I'm hearing from Detroiters about their city.  In St. Louis-- though we have suffered over the last 60 years too-- there is a general optimism that the city bottomed out several years ago and is now growing, albeit VERY modestly.  There is no talk of "right sizing" or the "shrinking city" phenomenon.  Urban agriculture is definitely becoming more commonplace here, but new eco-friendly infill is still the desired outcome for vacant land in STL. 

 

Attitude is a real problem here.  There are a few of us that believe that the population decline has mostly bottomed out, but we're definitely in the minority, even on this site.  We probably share that attitude with Detroit because we're constantly being told that we're a smaller version of that city, despite the assets in our central city and different history that really make anything more than superficial comparisons hyperbole. 

 

Seven percent of Cleveland's land area is vacant, compared to 10 percent in Pittsburgh and 30 percent in Detroit.  The city is embracing shrinkage as policy- most of our landbank homes are demolished, rather than rehabbed or resold.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not burying my head and hiding from Cleveland's problems, but I think that a more glass (or city?)-half-full attitude would position us better for future growth.

 

 

Sorry for the long post.  Thanks again for sharing your impressions with us, and come back to visit soon!  And feel free to purchase (and rehab) that summer home!  ;-)

Wow, are any of those buildings in Hough still standing?  Such a sad, sad loss!

 

I echo all of Jivecity's comments.  I absolutely love Cleveland and its people.

A few.  Do a streetview in Google Maps at about 1584 Ansel Road, or 1842 East 90th, or 1836 East 79th St. to see what remains in Hough.  Those brick walk ups are also scattered about other neighborhoods and streetcar era suburbs.

Tina's is raw.  It's a real hidden gem.  I saw a mini riot there one night, it was great.

Did you see Shaker Square?  Glenville?  Edgewater?  And some of those far west areas.  There is wealth in those areas.

 

The majority of Shaker Square is prewar brick buildings.

^ Good points...there are many areas that also harken back to the days of some pretty wealthy neighborhoods.. What about East Blvd. One thing I want to point out too...is that on Franklin, there used to be many of the stone houses, such as in Franklin Castle... But were demolished...    Also, the demos of Millionaire's Row on Euclid.

Did you see Shaker Square? Glenville? Edgewater? And some of those far west areas. There is wealth in those areas.

 

The majority of Shaker Square is prewar brick buildings.

 

Yes, we did go to all of these neighborhoods, and we also went through Hough.  Shaker Square and Edgewater remind me of University City, an inner-ring STL suburb.  Here's a thread I did on U. City a few years ago:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,12545.0.html

 

Those 'hoods are very nice indeed.  I guess what I'm wondering is why Cleveland never built luxury highrise apartment buildings like most cities during the 1920s.  It would seem like the University Circle area would be well suited for them. 

 

Another thing I noticed-- Cleveland certainly has racial polarization, but not nearly to the degree I expected.  I was expecting the East Side to be 90% African-American, similar to St. Louis's North Side, but it appears that is not the case at all.  I guess certain East Side neighborhoods are black and certain others are white.  What is the racial breakdown of Cleveland?

 

Thanks guys, great discussion!

If I haven't told you lately, I LOVE CLEVELAND!!

 

Also, do most people there consider Akron part of the metro area?  The tour guide said the Cleveland area has about 2.1 million, which doesn't include the CSA.  Is Akron sort of regarded as its own city there?  Its proximity would suggest otherwise, but Northeast Ohio has a different culture than some other parts of the Midwest.

Greater Cleveland includes Greater Akron if you ask many Clevelanders. Greater Akron is definitely not a part of Cleveland if you ask many Akronites. But if you ask the Census, the CSA includes Greater Akron and gives the metro area a population of 2.9 million.

 

Very true that downtown and surrounding areas had few high-rise apartment buildings. And many mid-rise apartment buildings were demolished, along with lots of wood-frame homes (notably the famous Cleveland "Duckbill Doubles"). Consider this aerial picture of Hough from 1957. About half of the structures on the right half of the photo are no longer standing. And virtually all of the structures on the left half of the photo are gone, replaced with suburban garden-style apartments and Mcmansions:

 

 

That picture was part of a thread I posted about Hough at:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2047.0.html

 

It includes several devastating then-and-now comparisons.

 

 

 

Another thing I noticed-- Cleveland certainly has racial polarization, but not nearly to the degree I expected.  I was expecting the East Side to be 90% African-American, similar to St. Louis's North Side, but it appears that is not the case at all.  I guess certain East Side neighborhoods are black and certain others are white.  What is the racial breakdown of Cleveland?

 

 

On the whole, the city is slightly more than 50% black and slightly less than 40% white.  There's definitely some racial polarization, as nearly all the majority-black neighborhoods are on the East Side (with some being 90% or more black.) However, there are plenty of areas on both sides of town with a mix of races:

 

http://www.iwantmyvote.com/lib/i/layout/voting_while_black.gif

Those pre-war luxury high-rise buildings can be found in the Shaker Square neighborhood and inner-ring suburbs Shaker Heights and Cleveland Heights.  However, most of those buildings (with the exception of a few in SS) are not considered "luxury" anymore.  Rich people in Cleveland just generally do not live in apartments.  The once luxury units are now mere rentals filled mostly with young people.  But you can tell what they once were in their glory days.  Several of the buildings around Coventry and many in Shaker Heights have servants' entrances to the individual units (where you have two entrances to the apartment and one is somewhere near the kitchen).

Those pre-war luxury high-rise buildings can be found in the Shaker Square neighborhood and inner-ring suburbs Shaker Heights and Cleveland Heights.  However, most of those buildings (with the exception of a few in SS) are not considered "luxury" anymore.  Rich people in Cleveland just generally do not live in apartments.  The once luxury units are now mere rentals filled mostly with young people.  But you can tell what they once were in their glory days.  Several of the buildings around Coventry and many in Shaker Heights have servants' entrances to the individual units (where you have two entrances to the apartment and one is somewhere near the kitchen).

 

Most high-rise/prewar buildings in Cleveland, like the rest of the big cities in the 30/40/50s, were rental.  Not owner occupied.  Moreland Courts was built as a luxury rental building before being converted into condos.  My apartment has dual entrances and most units have a "maids quarters".  I converted my maids room into my closet.  Lots of people have reconfigured the area near the kitchen and laundry to work with a modern day lifestyle since most people no longer have live in maids.

 

NYC created coops to prevent rent controlled apartments out of buildings (ie financial elitism).  Coops require you to have X amount of money in the bank, sometimes 70% of the purchase price, so they are assured that you can pay your lease payments.  This is why there are a number of prewar buildings in excellent shape.  In the States, there are very few coops outside of Metro NYC as the price to buy is out of reach for most.

 

 

To be fair to Cleveland, most large cities did not build residential highrises circa-1920's/30's away from downtown.  Philadelphia, Atlanta, Cincinnati, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Boston, San Diego, Washington DC, Columbus, Albany, Richmond, Cleveland, Los Angeles, etc all lack significant "older" highrise districts outside of their downtown.  It was more a Midwestern influence with the grand scale ala Chicago, Detroit, Kansas City, St. Louis, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Tulsa, (+ Dallas, Denver) and the other outliners include New York and San Francisco for obvious constraint reasons.

^come on, ColDay-- Baltimore, Philly, Boston and Pittsburgh all have a number of historic residential highrises outside of downtown.  I categorically disagree with your post.

 

Indianapolis?  not so sure about that one.

Just an idea.  Other than Pittsburg, Cleveland really has the prettiest suburban countryside of any of those cites so maybe the rich were lured by the siren song of Hunting Valley, Kitland Hills, etc.  to build thier estates. 

 

Same for Akron. 

^Tedloph... I agree many times over. The ride on Chagrin River Road skimming the eastern fringes among many, many other places is stunning. One side observation....When on Gildersleeve Mountain looking west, Cleveland skyline on a clear day pops up out of what looks like a huge forest.

^Tedloph... I agree many times over. The ride on Chagrin River Road skimming the eastern fringes among many, many other places is stunning. One side observation....When on Gildersleeve Mountain looking west, Cleveland skyline on a clear day pops up out of what looks like a huge forest.

 

You are correct on both counts.  I actually had the chagrin River valley and Chargin river and county line roads in my mind when I wrote my post.  I really wish we could reinvigorate our urban forest to once again become the Forest City.  I don't think it would be too difficult. 

Did you see Shaker Square? Glenville? Edgewater? And some of those far west areas. There is wealth in those areas.

 

The majority of Shaker Square is prewar brick buildings.

There is also some wealth is West Park near Rocky River drive.  In Glenvile it is reserved to East BLVD and Wade Park.  There is a similar pocket of wealth to West Park in Old Broklyn in the South Hills Area.

^come on, ColDay-- Baltimore, Philly, Boston and Pittsburgh all have a number of historic residential highrises outside of downtown.  I categorically disagree with your post.

 

Indianapolis?  not so sure about that one.

 

Where?  Pittsburgh certainly does not unless you want to consider the Cathedral of Learning and the two toilet paper roll dorms a "highrise district."  Philadelphia certainly doesn't unless you count the 1960's City Line hotels, Drexel's dorms, or the "Devine" hotel which is abandoned.  And Baltimore has a whooping two historic highrises north on Charles Street, that's about it.  Hell, Cincinnati has more "historic highrises" away from downtown than Pittsburgh and Baltimore yet I wouldn't say Cincinnati has a "historic residential highrise district" either.

 

Indianapolis has an historic highrise district north on Meridian but it isn't significant either like, say, Midtown Tulsa, Central West End St. Louis, or the Plaza area in Kansas City.

 

Again, it's mostly a Midwestern thing which is kind of obvious when dealing with that time period Midwestern cities boomed the most.

"To be fair to Cleveland, most large cities did not build residential highrises circa-1920's/30's away from downtown. Philadelphia, Atlanta, Cincinnati, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Boston, San Diego, Washington DC, Columbus, Albany, Richmond, Cleveland, Los Angeles, etc all lack significant "older" highrise districts outside of their downtown. It was more a Midwestern influence with the grand scale ala Chicago, Detroit, Kansas City, St. Louis, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Tulsa, (+ Dallas, Denver) and the other outliners include New York and San Francisco for obvious constraint reasons."

 

DC does have a pretty significant number of older highrise buildings--just go up Wisconsin or Connecticut Avenue.

 

There are also several cities other than NYC where co-ops are part of the real estate mix. Both DC and Chicago have quite a few. In DC especially, the tenant right of first refusal laws have been an important force in the development of co-ops.

Where?  Pittsburgh certainly does not unless you want to consider the Cathedral of Learning and the two toilet paper roll dorms a "highrise district."

 

I'm not necessarily talking about "districts" outside of downtown.  Whether they're downtown or not,  I said I noticed that Cleveland has a dearth of pre-war highrise apartment buildings, whereas other cities have a lot more.  There weren't even any in downtown Cleveland (not counting converted lofts).  That is strange to me.

 

Pittsburgh-- There aren't too many, but Oakland has several mid and highrise 1920s-era apartment buildings (they were luxury when they were built).  I know because my friend used to live in one of them.  Squirrel Hill has some large ones as well, although they aren't tall.

 

 

Philadelphia certainly doesn't unless you count the 1960's City Line hotels, Drexel's dorms, or the "Devine" hotel which is abandoned.

 

Though it's considered part of Center City, Rittenhouse Square has plenty of 'em.  There are countless other historic residential highrises dotted throughout central Phila.  Come on now, you know that.

 

And Baltimore has a whooping two historic highrises north on Charles Street' date=' that's about it.[/quote']

 

I'm not getting into semantics, but Baltimore has numerous upscale historic midrises all over Mt. Vernon and nearby 'hoods. 

 

My point is that the vast majority of older major cities built large upscale apartment houses and apparently Cleveland did not, at least not to the same degree.  I wonder why that is?  Did Cleveland's later boom manifest in a greater preference for single-family dwelling? 

 

Detroit also has plenty of historic high-rises, scattered around New Center, Midtown and along Jefferson Ave.

 

I saw about two in the University Circle area, to be fair.

Pittsburgh-- There aren't too many, but Oakland has several mid and highrise 1920s-era apartment buildings (they were luxury when they were built).  I know because my friend used to live in one of them.  Squirrel Hill has some large ones as well, although they aren't tall.

 

I think every city (including Cleveland) has several mid and highrise apartment buildings (even Dayton and Toledo) but I was talking district.  Oakland has about four-ish I can think of but it isn't any different than the ones in-and-around UCircle or Shaker Square.

 

DC does have a pretty significant number of older highrise buildings--just go up Wisconsin or Connecticut Avenue.

 

I'm well aware of the Art-Deco and Neo-Classical midrises along Wisconsin, 16th, and CT but in true DC-form, they aren't a "highrise district" for obvious, historical reasons.

 

Though it's considered part of Center City, Rittenhouse Square has plenty of 'em.  There are countless other historic residential highrises dotted throughout central Phila.  Come on now, you know that.

 

I'm not talking about Center City, I'm talking about the rest of Philadelphia much like the Central West End or the Plaza, which Philadelphia does not have.  Every city has older residential highrises around the downtown area, that's a given.  I thought you were implying Cleveland didn't have residential highrises away from downtown like Chicago, Detroit, Kansas City, St. Louis, or Tulsa.

 

I'm not getting into semantics, but Baltimore has numerous upscale historic midrises all over Mt. Vernon and nearby 'hoods. 

 

My point is that the vast majority of older major cities built large upscale apartment houses and apparently Cleveland did not, at least not to the same degree.  I wonder why that is?  Did Cleveland's later boom manifest in a greater preference for single-family dwelling?

 

Mt. Vernon only has like three-ish historic highrises including the gorgeous Second-Empire hotel off Charles Street and one at the base of Druid Hill Park.  The only other area with some highrises is Charles Village/John Hopkins and even then it's not that many.  But anyway...

 

I don't think Cleveland's "late" boom had anything to do with why it "lacks" older, historic highrises.  Detroit boomed around the same time Cleveland did and it has older highrises all the way out to 7 Mile.  Cleveland was quite unique in the way it kept many of its wealth SO close to the core (ala Euclid Ave) instead of further out (ala Cincinnati, Philly, or Pittsburgh).  I'm presuming Cleveland massively-scaled street-plan never really called/needed highrises as Cleveland's 4-5 story apartment buildings did the trick (look at Lakewood, Coventry, or Edgewater for a perfect example).

I would have to think that Shaker Heights, one of the first planned communities in the states also took away some market pressure for high rise apartments.

I love all you Ohioans.  You are all so knowledgeable and passionate and awesome.  Damn, I love Cleveland.  I LOVE CLEVELAND. 

When Shaker was built, I have to think that a selling point of the community was a more open setting rather than being stacked upon others in what are apartment buildings. Sure, we look at the old photos and romanticize such dwellings from certain aspects, as I also do...but people at that time (especially the more financially well off, which is what the community catered to) may have actually welcomed the more open sprawling bucolic settings as a new break from denser living...because the denser/crowded living is all most people knew at the time..and along with it came some of the stuffy/dirty feelings. Therefore, the Shaker setting must have looked so welcoming, especially in a time when probably not one person in 20,000 even was fathoming the idea that resources aren't limitless and effects of anything related to sprawl. (which at that time, this would have been among the first major "sprawl")

And as has been mentioned, many of the people that moved to the mansions of Shaker Hts, Cleveland Hts, and Bratenahl came from the "close in" mansions like from Millionairs Row (Euclid Ave) that were pretty much all demolished. 

Also, with the train network that Shaker was build around, it allowed people to easily live there, as opposed to closer to downtown (further alleviated the need for upscale buildings) closer in. 

ColDayMan--perhaps you could explain your definition of "Highrise district"?

And the selling point of Shaker was that it was easily connected to downtown via the rapid, and the downtown terminal tower.

ColDayMan--perhaps you could explain your definition of "Highrise district"?

 

Sure, a district of highrises (aka a building over 12 floors).  Most of DC's buildings are mid-rises (aka 6-10 stories).  As a matter of fact, the idea of highrises were so controversial, The Cairo on Q Street essentially killed the idea of any "highrises" going up in Washington after 1894 due to the 1899 Heights of Buildings Act!

ColDayMan--perhaps you could explain your definition of "Highrise district"?

 

Not speaking for ColDay, but he's probably referring to areas such as STL's Central West End, which features clusters of highrise apartment, condo and co-op buildings.  Here are some pics:

 

 

 

 

One of the guides also said there are no longer wealthy neighborhoods in the city.  Is this true????  There have to be some pockets of million-dollar homes in the city limits.  Please enlighten me!

 

It's important to understand the layout of the greater Cleveland area--it's made up of 59(?) different, more or less self-sufficient municipalities. The actual area within "city limits" is much smaller than most major cities (though it edges out STL by 15 sq. mi). The wealth and prosperity is very highly concentrated in the suburban cities and in the downtown core. Though the population of the City of Cleveland has been declining for years, the population of the metro area has stayed relatively flat during that same time. Much of the decay in the city center can be attributed to racial tensions followed by white flight and "administrative revenge." As a native, however, I consider basically anything within Cuyahoga County, with a few exceptions, to be a part of the contiguous "city."

 

I've always thought of this city as a collection of hundreds of small towns within a greater metro area. The development, especially in Cleveland Heights and Shaker Heights, was very controlled to allow for several small "town centers" of high commercial density along main drags surrounded by a few blocks of dense housing and brick apartment blocks. I really haven't found a place like it anywhere else, although northern Chicago and Pittsburgh come close. Alas, however, we've paved over much of our high-density urban past.

 

As elaborated above, it's the pessimistic attitude that is killing this place more than anything else. Cleveland is a viable city; for a young professional like me I find the opportunities available to me here are much more numerous simply by virtue of me being a big fish in a small pond (do you know how many unemployed graduates are in New York right now?)

^^Bingo.  Other older highrise districts include Midtown Tulsa, the Plaza in Kansas City, anywhere along the lake in Chicago or Milwaukee, New Center/Midtown Detroit, Capitol Hill in Denver, and Nob Hill in San Francisco.  There are cities that have highrise districts that aren't necessarily from the 1920's such as Cincinnati's Edgecliff, Philadelphia's City Line, Boston's Back Bay (which you could argue that it's part of downtown), Atlanta's Buckhead, Los Angeles' Miracle Mile, and, well, all of South Florida.

 

If Lakewood were in the city of Cleveland, it would be one.

As elaborated above, it's the pessimistic attitude that is killing this place more than anything else. Cleveland is a viable city; for a young professional like me I find the opportunities available to me here are much more numerous simply by virtue of me being a big fish in a small pond (do you know how many unemployed graduates are in New York right now?)

 

Excellent point.

The suburban planned developments with dedicated streetcar service greatly encouraged suburban sprawl (albeit a more tolerable, walkable type than superblocks/cul de sac development) in the 1920s. At the time, the city was one of the wealthiest in the world, enabling mere factory workers to afford their own plot of land and take the streetcar to work or even purchase an automobile. (I might even go far as to say that the storied "American Dream" was born here, as residents moved out of 19th-century city brownstones to single- and double-family homes in droves.) The city's incredible public transportation network that peaked in trackage in the 1920s made high-density development unnecessary, as there was no benefit to be realized from living in a luxury highrise that couldn't be enjoyed the same way in a 4-story brownstone. The demand for apartment living had waned greatly in the 1920s in the city, which was about the time when that kind of construction was heating up. We do have several highrises from that era, but they were nearly all originally hotels (the University Circle area has several fine examples), and don't forget that the Terminal Tower was the second-tallest building in the world and remained the tallest outside New York City until 1964. As for "districts," however, the city traded that kind of development for lower density neighborhoods very early in the game.

 

To this day, I sense an attitude pervasive through the area that apartment living is far less desirable than living in a house with a yard and driveway.

A big part of Cleveland's pessimism is a reaction to its stunningly poor leadership (with exceptions) which is fueled by a residual anti-business/pro-poverty streak, or "progressivism" left over from the industial boom of the early 20th century.  Most Clevelanders, and suburbanites in particular are aware that Cleveland has vast unrealized potential.  The decade after decade inability to capitalize on that potential is what depreses them. 

 

Eaton's move to the suburbs is a good example of a fanstastic lost opportunity.

I love all you Ohioans. You are all so knowledgeable and passionate and awesome. Damn, I love Cleveland. I LOVE CLEVELAND.

 

We like you too :-D.  Well, I especially like you as I am a native St. Louisan, but I felt at home in Cleveland the minute I got here in 2002.  Both cities have changed so so much for the better since then, though.  My senior prom was at Windows Off Washington, and the neighborhood was ghetto, and I mean GHETTO at that point in time, and just look at it now.  I've been in the process of rediscovering St. Louis during the process of planning my wedding, and I am most certainly impressed.  Keep spreading the good word about C-Town there, and I'll keep spreading the good word about the 'Lou here!  I am convinced the world will take hardcore notice of the midwest very very soon :-D.

A big part of Cleveland's pessimism is a reaction to its stunningly poor leadership (with exceptions) which is fueled by a residual anti-business/pro-poverty streak, or "progressivism" left over from the industial boom of the early 20th century.  Most Clevelanders, and suburbanites in particular are aware that Cleveland has vast unrealized potential.  The decade after decade inability to capitalize on that potential is what depreses them. 

 

Eaton's move to the suburbs is a good example of a fanstastic lost opportunity.

 

Here we go again.  Eaton wanted to move to the suburbs and as reported, nothing the Mayor our Cuyahoga County could do would change that.

 

Eaton doesn't care about being Cleveland proper.

 

Lets stay on topic and if you want to discuss this further see the Eaton thread.

Think you guys for coming! Hope you enjoyed ... I was one of the tour guides (but you were both on the other bus). It was really nice for all of us to be with our fellow industrial city "nerds" :)

 

And UrbanOhio folks, you seriously, seriously, SERIOUSLY need to attend one of these annual GLUE convenings. The attendees are our fellow urban lovers from throughout the Great Lakes region. GLUE has pulled back the veil now on Buffalo, Milwaukee and the Cleve (hopefully St. Louis will host soon!!! ;)) and opened my eyes to all sorts of innovation in the industrial Midwest. Really, you gotsta be there.

Eaton's move to the suburbs is a good example of a fanstastic lost opportunity.

 

Yes, for Eaton. They don't understand the employment market in terms of what graduates are looking for in their employer. Their location is at least as important as the money and challenge. But Eaton couldn't be forced into understanding this. We've discussed this a million times at the Eaton thread.

 

As for apartment high-rise districts, there are several of them on the east side of downtown but they were called residential hotels, including Carter Manor (formerly the Hotel Winton)...

 

 

 

Or the Parkview Apartments (sorry MayDay, this is the only image I could easily find)...

 

 

 

Or the Statler which was part of a hotel chain, but my grandfather lived there for a while in the 1920s (I still have the wooden hangers with "Statler Hotels" on them)...

 

 

 

Or there were the high-rises around University Circle most of which are still standing like the old Wade Park Manor....

 

 

 

University Circle Place (was the Commodore Hotel, a residential hotel)...

 

 

 

Or the Tudors Arms at East 107th and Carnegie, soon to become a Doubletree Hotel....

 

 

 

And then there's my neighborhood, Lakewood's Gold Coast, most of which is post-1950 high-rises but there some pre-war buildings too...

 

 

 

Plus a great 1920s residential hotel turned condos, the Westlake Hotel in Rocky River....

 

^Great info, thanks!