No...No. I asked what your experience was. It's not a hard a question to answer.

 

My eyes, a sharp wit, and a thirst for knowledge. For many years.

No...No.  I asked what your experience was.  It's not a hard a question to answer.

 

My eyes, a sharp wit, and a thirst for knowledge. For many years.

 

Look, you can't just expect development to spring up out of nothingness, especially in a city where houses and retail spaces are being abandoned at record pace, AND in an era of stringent lending standards. I'll ask you this again: When was the last time you saw any building with streetfront retail be built in this city in an area (a) without pre-existing wealth and (b) without other established businesses located in old housing stock? I doubt you will even find one built at the peak of the commercial construction boom. The only way you're going to pull off this magic trick is with a hydrogen bomb of money from the county.

Look, you can't just expect development to spring up out of nothingness, especially in a city where houses and retail spaces are being abandoned at record pace, AND in an era of stringent lending standards. I'll ask you this again: When was the last time you saw any building with streetfront retail be built in this city in an area (a) without pre-existing wealth and (b) without other established businesses located in old housing stock? I doubt you will even find one built at the peak of the commercial construction boom. The only way you're going to pull off this magic trick is with a hydrogen bomb of money from the county.

 

Harlem.  the area north of the convention center in DC.  Sweet Auburn in Atlanta.  Wynwood in Miami.  I can go on.  ;)

Look, you can't just expect development to spring up out of nothingness, especially in a city where houses and retail spaces are being abandoned at record pace, AND in an era of stringent lending standards. I'll ask you this again: When was the last time you saw any building with streetfront retail be built in this city in an area (a) without pre-existing wealth and (b) without other established businesses located in old housing stock? I doubt you will even find one built at the peak of the commercial construction boom. The only way you're going to pull off this magic trick is with a hydrogen bomb of money from the county.

 

Harlem. the area north of the convention center in DC. Sweet Auburn in Atlanta. Wynwood in Miami. I can go on. ;)

 

Those places aren't comparable. You referred to areas of growing population. This is Cleveland. Population is declining in the city limits. We might have to take a page out of Detroit's or Youngstown's book and start "right-sizing" the community with bulldozers. If we build new buildings and as a consequence let a 100-year-old community get plowed into the dirt, we'll have definitely lost something. I think it's more important to stop this process by better utilizing what we already have rather than trying to encourage businesses to build new. Opinions may differ.

Look, you can't just expect development to spring up out of nothingness, especially in a city where houses and retail spaces are being abandoned at record pace, AND in an era of stringent lending standards. I'll ask you this again: When was the last time you saw any building with streetfront retail be built in this city in an area (a) without pre-existing wealth and (b) without other established businesses located in old housing stock? I doubt you will even find one built at the peak of the commercial construction boom. The only way you're going to pull off this magic trick is with a hydrogen bomb of money from the county.

 

Harlem.  the area north of the convention center in DC.  Sweet Auburn in Atlanta.  Wynwood in Miami.  I can go on.  ;)

 

Those places aren't comparable. You referred to areas of growing population. This is Cleveland. Population is declining in the city limits. We might have to take a page out of Detroit's or Youngstown's book and start "right-sizing" the community with bulldozers. If we build new buildings and as a consequence let a 100-year-old community get plowed into the dirt, we'll have definitely lost something. I think it's more important to stop this process by better utilizing what we already have rather than trying to encourage businesses to build new. Opinions may differ.

 

No No.  You asked me to supply you with information I did.  Now you're changing the parameters.

 

That's all.

Whatever. This is not productive.

^ No ones arguing that this is a rough stretch of Cleveland ccars, but don't underestimate what developement like this could do for the area. The status quo there is obviously not working...and I am pretty sure the residents there would be against the whole bulldozing idea. Lets remove the concrete blight of gas stations and fast food joints and replace it with something the residents there can be pround of.

I like the idea of Maingate Market Place and I believe it could be successful on the e. 55th location but I think it will be a challenge.  I am too young to remember w. 25th in the 80's but I would bet that West Side Market had enough history to draw people despite the neighborhood.  I used to go to Findlay Market in Cincinnati in the 90's when the neighborhood was rougher than today and I went because it was historic Findlay Market.  One problem is that for people in the heights, West Side market is not really much farther and people are already so familiar with it.  I would think Hough or Fairfax would be a better bet for a market to help bring development to the east side because they are definitely closer to the heights and eastern suburbs along with the clinic.  I am not too familiar with all the benefits of having all of the food wholesaling businesses in the area but I guess the would benefit the E. 55th location.  If executed well I think that location could be successful and I would definitely visit from time to time.

I don't understand the all the argument for where this project should go. It's proposed for East 55th and Woodland. You can't just move it elsewhere, but you can propose a similar project for somewhere else. I think this is a great idea, critics be damned. No one can easily say this will definitely spur development and improve the eating habits of the neighborhood, but anyone saying this is not a good idea is living in the past (specifically 1982 when cars, processed food and suburban living were considered the future.) Any forward thinking project like this, proposed for anywhere in the city, should be lauded.

Everyone, please understand that the organization proposing the project is a community development corporation with a very specific service area.  They aren't going to move the project and revitalize a community that isn't theirs.

 

Also, remember that Maingate is a member organization comprised of the industries in the food terminal district.  CDCs just don't do projects that the board (and sometimes members) does not support.  Maingate's board is made up of individuals who represent those various industries.

 

City Planning also supports this project conceptually.

 

Directly across the street from this site, Green City Growers is getting its hydroponic greenhouse underway.  It's the next Evergreen Co-op project, and 3 million heads of lettuce and a million pounds of basil will be produced annually there.  30 to 40 new jobs for low-income neighborhood residents will be created.

 

There are also some other major green projects being planned for that area, but they are still very early in the process. 

 

A lot of people wrote off Central in the 80's and 90's, but look what happened.  Central Commons brought 81 market-rate single-family homes in 1999, and as part of the Villages of Central, 300 market-rate single-family homes have been constructed since 2000.  Construction on another 40 single-family homes will begin in the spring.  MTS and X mentioned Arbor Park Place, too.

 

 

I don't understand the all the argument for where this project should go. It's proposed for East 55th and Woodland. You can't just move it elsewhere,

 

Please you can have this anywhere you decide to.

 

The developer who owns the land wants it here.

 

1) is it a good idea...the current WSM is only open 4 days a week...is this necessary until/unless the WSM is at/over capacity.  The WSM is not that far away and is accessible via rapid at the E 55th st station, a one seat trip on a heated/air conditioned train that runs frequently and aside from rush hour is not overly crowded. 

 

Personally I think an ESM is a decent idea  but until the WSM goes to 6/7 day a week operation AND all the vendor stands are occupied the idea should remain on the shelf.

 

2) is this a good location..I mean for anybody other than the developer that owns the land

 

I have suggested in Slavic Village is a better location while still being close to the original location.  Others have suggested nearer the clinic, the heights or On the Healthline route,  Good lord knows there are plenty of vacant lots with 500 feet of the healthline.

 

I believe that Putting an ESM here and now is much akin to the Ameritrust bldg boondoggle.  The only people who will benefit in any appreciable way are the people who currently own the property.

The developer is hoping to receive the land gratis from the city. The location then is a proper subject for public debate.

 

The only reason I make my opinion known is to try to spread new urbanist ideals. Whether or not this project ends up conforming to them is not as important as planting that seed, so that developers consider those ideals in projects moving forward. So no matter the circumstance, I'm going to rail against any  suburban-style new development, since in my opinion it'll have a worse impact than leaving the land fallow. Again, opinions may differ. But I'm here to try to spread good urban planning principles.

^ Guys, you don't get it.  The CDC is the project sponsor and is not going to move the project.  The CDC has in its bylaws that it is to serve the Maingate district.  Enough of what "should" be and more focus on what is.

 

If Maingate is willing to make its vision a reality, we should support it instead of criticizing the location.  I don't see anyone else in the city taking the initiative to establish an East Side Market.

 

Guys, it's not a developer proposing this. It's a community development corporation. It's an economic development nonprofit organization whose service area has geographic boundaries. Cleveland's neighborhood-level economic development initiatives are run by these nonprofits, which exist in virtually every neighborhood and don't extend beyond their specific service area.

 

So this project is not going to move out of the neighborhood. The CDC is seeking this to leverage off the strength of the existing food warehouses that have been in the neighborhood since the 1800s when Greek and Italian immigrants first settled here and set up these food market houses and distribution centers.

 

It will offer that which doesn't exist anywhere else in this city, even at West Side Market, as it is a "factory showroom" for the adjacent food distribution centers. It's close to I-77. It will create jobs in the neighborhood. And it may create a spark that will spread to the rest of this long suffering neighborhood.

 

This project will either happen here or it won't happen.

That's fine. And that means that my vote isn't going to make a difference as to whether the project gets done or not.

 

That's not going to stop me from warning against car-centric development on fallow land inside the city limits. We can't tell how this project will turn out for the community, to be sure, but I envision that a project like this would be far more beneficial to an established community. And you know, if the right people read our posts, maybe we'll see just that type of redevelopment sometime in the future.

 

Forgive my perceived negativity, but if we don't have this kind of debate, we're liable to finally turn the entire city into a suburb without even discussing it. It's a distinct possibility, as remote as it may seem.

^ No ones arguing that this is a rough stretch of Cleveland ccars, but don't underestimate what developement like this could do for the area.

 

MTS mentioned Harlem as an example.  Harlem has never had its building stock depleted like the area around E. 55th and Woodland.  Also, I don't think too many rejuvenation efforts in Harlem took the form of a suburban strip plaza on a main intersection.

 

And anyone that thinks a neighborhood catalyst can be created like the West Side Market by building a strip plaza need only look at the East Side Market, which I think was better planned than this and still failed.  Based on the site plan I saw, this will be nothing like Findlay Market or the West Side Market.

 

Personally, I would like to see this project happen and hope it succeeds, but I'm just weary about being overly optimistic after seeing how many similar projects have failed, and also wish it was designed to be something other than a typical strip plaza.

I'm not sure what their plans are for hours or operation, but if they do like the WSM and only open 4 days a week, they should make as many of those days different from the WSM as possible.  I'm guessing they'll want to be open on weekends, maybe Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, Sunday?

Excellent post, jam40jeff. An existing building stock is the key to developing a vibrant neighborhood. As I said, none of us have a vote in this particular project. But we need to start taking a good, hard look at the assets we already have, rather than cheerlead the developers who are building more retail space and surface parking in a city that already has an oversupply.

What are this CDC's geographic boundaries?

^ http://maingatecleveland.org/index.php?page=area-map-and-photos

15 seconds of Google searching revealed this...

 

http://www.nhlink.net/images/clevelandcdcs.pdf

15 seconds of Google searching revealed this...

 

http://www.nhlink.net/images/clevelandcdcs.pdf

 

Interesting how much overlap there is between CDCs.

Especially on the east side.

15 seconds of Google searching revealed this...

 

http://www.nhlink.net/images/clevelandcdcs.pdf

 

And yet cd-cleveland still managed to beat you by nearly a minute smart-alec ;)

 

I was hoping the district extended north of Woodland.  I suppose the location choice makes some sense considering the limitations.

1: There is an undeniable need for fresh fruit, vegetables, and unprocessed food to be made available to this part of town. The market exists for that, but the retail space hasn't.

 

2: Anybody who has just driven through the intersection hasn't seen this block-by-block improvements that have and will continue to be made throughout the neighborhood north of Woodland. This is not a place that should be bulldozed or left fallow.

 

3: There is a need for a project that can lead to the redevelopment of the area south of Woodland and east of E. 55th.

 

4: You have incredible assets in the E 55th St. rapid station under renovation, the Food Terminal to the west, and possibly the Opportunity Corridor to the south.

 

5: Most all new development that has gone before City Planning in the last several years have been for buildings that are either right up against the right-of-way or have a single row of parking on the front. See: Arts District in UC, Midtown proposals along Euclid, Third Federal along Broadway, the CMHA HQ down on Kinsman, etc. The last "suburban style" development I can recall was Church Square and the Hough McMansions, and that was nearly 20 years ago.

 

6: The concept plan that Maingate has shows is consistent with an urban style of development, down to having the vast majority of parking in the back.

 

7: Jesus, people, you have to have some parking available. And, while there may be an oversupply of retail space and parking throughout the city (I think this is actually debatable, but not for this thread.), it doesn't exist here.

 

8: And, this is just a concept plan.  It will be up to Maingate, City Planning, and a slew of other oversight entities to ensure that this will be an asset to the neighborhood and the city.

 

(On Preview: The nhlink map is grossly out of date. WECO area has been subsumed by Maingate, Clark Metro and Stockyards (among many others) no longer exist. Famicos has absorbed many of the eastern CDCs.)

I was surprised to see Clark Metro still on the map as I wrote about their demise shortly after I started covering Cleveland for Sun in 2005.

"Anybody who has just driven through the intersection hasn't seen this block-by-block improvements that have and will continue to be made throughout the neighborhood north of Woodland. This is not a place that should be bulldozed or left fallow."

 

Are the improvements all CMHA-subsidized or is there any market housing in the area?

 

I see that the area southeast of the intersection has some potential for infill. But my biggest worry is the absolute dearth of commercial building stock there-that will be an enormous hurdle for the area without major subsidization.

 

At least we might finally be able to price Cleveland Scrap out of that neighborhood. 

Are the improvements all CMHA-subsidized or is there any market housing in the area?

 

No, the improvements are not all subsidized housing.  There is a remarkable amount of market-rate housing, notably between E 30th and E 40th and between Cedar and Community College. Likewise east of E 55th between Cedar and Scovill. Most of the CMHA residences have either been recently (and substantially) renovated, built new, or will be razed and built new. Regardless, even (nay, especially) folks in subsidized housing need access to fresh food.

 

Seriously, folks, before making assumptions about the neighborhood, learn a little something about it.  Isn't that what Jane would do?

I don't understand the all the argument for where this project should go. It's proposed for East 55th and Woodland. You can't just move it elsewhere,

 

Please you can have this anywhere you decide to.

 

The developer who owns the land wants it here.

 

1) is it a good idea...the current WSM is only open 4 days a week...is this necessary until/unless the WSM is at/over capacity.  The WSM is not that far away and is accessible via rapid at the E 55th st station, a one seat trip on a heated/air conditioned train that runs frequently and aside from rush hour is not overly crowded. 

 

Personally I think an ESM is a decent idea  but until the WSM goes to 6/7 day a week operation AND all the vendor stands are occupied the idea should remain on the shelf.

 

2) is this a good location..I mean for anybody other than the developer that owns the land

 

I have suggested in Slavic Village is a better location while still being close to the original location.  Others have suggested nearer the clinic, the heights or On the Healthline route,  Good lord knows there are plenty of vacant lots with 500 feet of the healthline.

 

I believe that Putting an ESM here and now is much akin to the Ameritrust bldg boondoggle.  The only people who will benefit in any appreciable way are the people who currently own the property.

 

You confusing this as an ESM only.  This is much more.  There is ALREADY a grocery industry in that area.

 

Also, when the Central market downtown it's hours were the exact same time as the WSM.

 

^ Guys, you don't get it.  The CDC is the project sponsor and is not going to move the project.  The CDC has in its bylaws that it is to serve the Maingate district.  [glow=red,2,300]Enough of what "should" be and more focus on what is.[/glow]

 

If Maingate is willing to make its vision a reality, we should support it instead of criticizing the location.  I don't see anyone else in the city taking the initiative to establish an East Side Market.

 

Games. Set. Match!

 

That's fine. And that means that my vote isn't going to make a difference as to whether the project gets done or not.

 

That's not going to stop me from warning against car-centric development on fallow land inside the city limits. We can't tell how this project will turn out for the community, to be sure, but I envision that a project like this would be far more beneficial to an established community. And you know, if the right people read our posts, maybe we'll see just that type of redevelopment sometime in the future.

 

Forgive my perceived negativity, but if we don't have this kind of debate, we're liable to finally turn the entire city into a suburb without even discussing it. It's a distinct possibility, as remote as it may seem.

Again, this is just like the retail thread.  Woulda, shoulda, coulda!

 

Not one person here is trying to turn this city into a suburb or for suburban type developments on our main corridors, so please don't play that passive-aggressive game.

 

^ No ones arguing that this is a rough stretch of Cleveland ccars, but don't underestimate what developement like this could do for the area.

 

MTS mentioned Harlem as an example.  Harlem has never had its building stock depleted like the area around E. 55th and Woodland.  Also, I don't think too many rejuvenation efforts in Harlem took the form of a suburban strip plaza on a main intersection.

 

And anyone that thinks a neighborhood catalyst can be created like the West Side Market by building a strip plaza need only look at the East Side Market, which I think was better planned than this and still failed.  Based on the site plan I saw, this will be nothing like Findlay Market or the West Side Market.

 

Personally, I would like to see this project happen and hope it succeeds, but I'm just weary about being overly optimistic after seeing how many similar projects have failed, and also wish it was designed to be something other than a typical strip plaza.

 

Jam, in Harlem, East New York, Brownsville, and the Bronx there are/were swaths of land that were demoed.  Prime example is Frederick Douglass Blvd. near me.  They tore down almost everything (btwn 112 and 123) and put up crap.  In some case brownstones were completely torn down.

 

Many of the homes in Harlem were uninhabitable because the building themselves were so damaged.  For instance, the rear of my house was completely gone.  Many houses are still like that today.  On 120 street many homes are vacant and cannot be repaired without a boat load of money.

 

Excellent post, jam40jeff. An existing building stock is the key to developing a vibrant neighborhood. As I said, none of us have a vote in this particular project. But we need to start taking a good, hard look at the assets we already have, rather than cheerlead the developers who are building more retail space and surface parking in a city that already has an oversupply.

Didn't two people say this was a CDC project?

 

read this

http://www.maingatecleveland.org/

 

 

Granted I do not like the parking situation as I hate parking lots/garages, hopefully the final will have a lot less street front parking.

 

"Anybody who has just driven through the intersection hasn't seen this block-by-block improvements that have and will continue to be made throughout the neighborhood north of Woodland. This is not a place that should be bulldozed or left fallow."

 

Are the improvements all CMHA-subsidized or is there any market housing in the area?

 

I see that the area southeast of the intersection has some potential for infill. But my biggest worry is the absolute dearth of commercial building stock there-that will be an enormous hurdle for the area without major subsidization.

 

At least we might finally be able to price Cleveland Scrap out of that neighborhood. 

 

Didn't I mention the market rate housing built in that neighborhood YESTERDAY?  Also, a number of market rate homes built in the are were mentioned earlier.  This is exactly why I asked you yesterday if you had been in the area.

 

Its as if you're not reading anything anyone else has written.

Jam, in Harlem, East New York, Brownsville, and the Bronx there are/were swaths of land that were demoed. Prime example is Frederick Douglass Blvd. near me. They tore down almost everything (btwn 112 and 123) and put up crap. In some case brownstones were completely torn down.

 

I randomly street viewed two locations on Frederick Douglass Blvd. (one around 116th and one around 119th).  I saw some crap (albeit densely built crap) and some nice newer buildings and some nice older buildings) in both locations.  Neither intersection looked like it was ever anything close to the current state of E. 55th and Woodland.  And of course it also helps that you're only one block away from the beautiful and fully intact 7th Avenue.  I honestly don't know how you could compare this to Maingate.

 

Frderick Douglass Blvd.:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=new+york,+ny&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.444078,114.169922&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=New+York&ll=40.803967,-73.944855&spn=0.023259,0.055747&z=15&layer=c&cbll=40.804712,-73.955155&panoid=y_Alho4A3RV5Wf-cHm_wdQ&cbp=12,190.68,,0,-3.52

 

Woodland and E. 55th St.:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=e.+55th+st.,+cleveland,+oh&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.444078,114.169922&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=E+55th+St,+Cleveland,+Ohio&z=13&layer=c&cbll=41.4884,-81.651608&panoid=onQ9UGKn4u-fvK8lfeZauA&cbp=12,179.13,,0,5

 

7th Avenue:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=new+york,+ny&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.444078,114.169922&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=New+York&ll=40.803967,-73.944855&spn=0.023259,0.055747&z=15&layer=c&cbll=40.803548,-73.95222&panoid=A1frSeCqZHrSBdHXeTabXg&cbp=12,174.3,,0,7.36

I was surprised to see Clark Metro still on the map as I wrote about their demise shortly after I started covering Cleveland for Sun in 2005.

 

That map is very out of date.  No one has worked at NeighborhoodLink since about 2005. 

Jam, in Harlem, East New York, Brownsville, and the Bronx there are/were swaths of land that were demoed.  Prime example is Frederick Douglass Blvd. near me.  They tore down almost everything (btwn 112 and 123) and put up crap.  In some case brownstones were completely torn down.

 

I randomly street viewed two locations on Frederick Douglass Blvd. (one around 116th and one around 119th).  I saw some crap (albeit densely built crap) and some nice newer buildings and some nice older buildings) in both locations.  Neither intersection looked like it was ever anything close to the current state of E. 55th and Woodland.  And of course it also helps that you're only one block away from the beautiful and fully intact 7th Avenue.  I honestly don't know how you could compare this to Maingate.

 

Frderick Douglass Blvd.:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=new+york,+ny&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.444078,114.169922&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=New+York&ll=40.803967,-73.944855&spn=0.023259,0.055747&z=15&layer=c&cbll=40.804712,-73.955155&panoid=y_Alho4A3RV5Wf-cHm_wdQ&cbp=12,190.68,,0,-3.52

 

Woodland and E. 55th St.:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=e.+55th+st.,+cleveland,+oh&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.444078,114.169922&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=E+55th+St,+Cleveland,+Ohio&z=13&layer=c&cbll=41.4884,-81.651608&panoid=onQ9UGKn4u-fvK8lfeZauA&cbp=12,179.13,,0,5

 

7th Avenue:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=new+york,+ny&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.444078,114.169922&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=New+York&ll=40.803967,-73.944855&spn=0.023259,0.055747&z=15&layer=c&cbll=40.803548,-73.95222&panoid=A1frSeCqZHrSBdHXeTabXg&cbp=12,174.3,,0,7.36

 

Because I've lived thru the construction and the crap.  You have no idea what FDB and Manhattan Avenue looked like.  No idea.  Or what Madison or Park Avenue look like.  Again, the facades may look nice, but there are still many buildings that are unoccupied.

 

Prior to me moving to Harlem, HeightstoHarlem moved to Harlem.  He had drug dealers/distributors in his coop building.

 

This has gone off topic of maingate.

"Didn't two people say this was a CDC project?"

 

So a project is inherently a better idea because it's done by a nonprofit instead of a for-profit developer?

 

The members of this organization include the food distributors in the area. They stand to benefit quite a bit from capital gains if the area does start to redevelop.

 

And the nice new housing developments aren't going to make a terrible lot of difference, whether they're projects or not. There is no existing commercial retail space in that area. It will take 20 years before you will see an independent art gallery, bookstore, cafe or anything other than a bank branch and gas station in that area. Meanwhile, small business are closing shop at record pace in Slavic Village and other locales. And we want to put up a glorified shopping center a mile away?

"Didn't two people say this was a CDC project?"

 

So a project is inherently a better idea because it's done by a nonprofit instead of a for-profit developer?

 

The members of this organization include the food distributors in the area. They stand to benefit quite a bit from capital gains if the area does start to redevelop.

 

And the nice new housing developments aren't going to make a terrible lot of difference, whether they're projects or not. There is no existing commercial retail space in that area. It will take 20 years before you will see an independent art gallery, bookstore, cafe or anything other than a bank branch and gas station in that area. Meanwhile, small business are closing shop at record pace in Slavic Village and other locales. And we want to put up a glorified shopping center a mile away?

 

Have you been to this neighborhood?  Yes or No?  What exactly do you know about this neighborhood?

ccars, you're a student (EDIT: or person in their early-mid 20's), right? I am guessing that you not only dig on Jane Jacobs and Andres Duany but also a little Richard Florida, based on your posts.  Let me tell you something: not all development is about (or should be about) hewing blindly to what they say by throwing down streetcars and eschewing all single-story buildings or making all development geared to attracting "the creative class."  Most of the time, you need to make sure development meets the needs of the neighborhood. I (and fortunately, most everybody who has a real stake in this instead of armchair planners) think this can meet the needs of the neighborhood.

 

I apologize to you all for taking this thread off track.

ccars, you're a student (EDIT: or person in their early-mid 20's), right? I am guessing that you not only dig on Jane Jacobs and Andres Duany and a little Richard Florida, based on your posts. Let me tell you something: not all development is about (or should be about) hewing blindly to what they say by throwing down streetcars and eschewing all single-story buildings or making all development geared to attracting "the creative class." Most of the time, you need to make sure development meets the needs of the neighborhood. I (and fortunately, most everybody who has a real stake in this instead of armchair planners) think this can meet the needs of the neighborhood.

 

I apologize to you all for taking this thread off track.

 

Well, as a matter of fact I won't because JACOBS drastically underestimates the impact of....

"Didn't two people say this was a CDC project?"

 

So a project is inherently a better idea because it's done by a nonprofit instead of a for-profit developer?

 

The members of this organization include the food distributors in the area. They stand to benefit quite a bit from capital gains if the area does start to redevelop.

 

And the nice new housing developments aren't going to make a terrible lot of difference, whether they're projects or not. There is no existing commercial retail space in that area. It will take 20 years before you will see an independent art gallery, bookstore, cafe or anything other than a bank branch and gas station in that area. Meanwhile, small business are closing shop at record pace in Slavic Village and other locales. And we want to put up a glorified shopping center a mile away?

 

ccars, who says every neighborhood has to have an art gallery and cafe? 

 

From reading your posts, I gather that you're a young person studying planning, and that you're very idealistic from the things you've learned in the classroom.  Until you gain some practical knowledge from working, you will not understand that there are numerous factors that influence why a development is proposed in a certain area or why it looks like it does.  This kind of work is not a walk in the park, either, so please don't readily dismiss accomplishments that others have made.  Those are lessons that are not taught in your studies.  There are several people on UO that work in the field that can reaffirm this.

 

Because I've lived thru the construction and the crap.  You have no idea what FDB and Manhattan Avenue looked like.  No idea.  Or what Madison or Park Avenue look like.  Again, the facades may look nice, but there are still many buildings that are unoccupied.

 

Prior to me moving to Harlem, HeightstoHarlem moved to Harlem.  He had drug dealers/distributors in his coop building.

 

This has gone off topic of maingate.

 

The point was that old buildings remained, were able to be rehabbed, and a dense environment was built around them.

 

At E. 55th and Woodland, we don't have ANY historic buildings remaining, what's there is suburban-style junk, and this new proposal looks like suburban-style junk.

 

I don't see any comparison between Harlem and Maingate.

 

Regardless, my argument isn't that this shouldn't be built if its not going to be a beautiful urban structure that returns the intersection to its glory days.  My point is that I don't see how this is any different from numerous other suburban-style strip plazas built across the city.  We are littering our city with junk which doesn't turn out to be very useful anyway.

Because I've lived thru the construction and the crap.  You have no idea what FDB and Manhattan Avenue looked like.  No idea.  Or what Madison or Park Avenue look like.  Again, the facades may look nice, but there are still many buildings that are unoccupied.

 

Prior to me moving to Harlem, HeightstoHarlem moved to Harlem.  He had drug dealers/distributors in his coop building.

 

This has gone off topic of maingate.

 

The point was that old buildings remained, were able to be rehabbed, and a dense environment was built around them.

 

At E. 55th and Woodland, we don't have ANY historic buildings remaining, what's there is suburban-style junk, and this new proposal looks like suburban-style junk.

 

I don't see any comparison between Harlem and Maingate.

 

Jam, that is just one section of harlem that has seen development.  Another case is 116 and the FDR.

 

But again, this really has nothing to do with maingate.

But again, this really has nothing to do with maingate.

 

I agree, that's my whole point.  You're the one that tried to connect the two.

I could have sworn there was an East Side Market somewhere owned by the city of Cleveland, and it was relatively newer. It maybe bagan in the llate 90s or early 2000s. It didnt make it.

there is one

 

http://www.clevelandpress.com/clnews-september.htm

there is one

 

http://www.clevelandpress.com/clnews-september.htm

 

Yeah, you can go to the East Side market with Mayor Jane Campbell and Zombie Fannie Lewis.  (I think that link is incorrect)

And you can go see a Force or Rockers game afterward.

^^^ The date says 2010, September 16th...But with an article that dates to Jane Cambell. I don't get it.

It's fairly common for dubious or small time news sites to have it always show todays date at the top of the page.  Apparently this one stopped being updated a while ago.

Yeah, check the date now EC.  Same news for September 17. :)

Yeah, you can go to the East Side market with Mayor Jane Campbell and Zombie Fannie Lewis.

 

Ouch.  Too soon....

Zombie Viktor Schreckengost?