The City of Cleveland offers so many neighborhoods that look exactly like those in the suburbs. There is a housing stock/style for anyone's taste in the city ... and at bottom basement prices.

 

The Mill Creek Development off Turney Rd in Cleveland offers suburban style homes constructed in the late 90s that you'd see way out in Strongsville, but for $79,900. Many of the neighborhoods off the Jennings in the South Hills offer very nice middle class homes, big yards, and mature trees. Most of the streets north of Kamm's Corners offer the same housing stock as Rocky River, Fairview, and North Olmsted. A lot of Shaker Heights style homes spill into Cleveland near Shaker Square. All of the streets in the W 140s and W 150s have nicer housing stock than Parma. Cleveland has a ton of nice neighborhoods left (outside the more familiar Edgewater, Tremont, and Ohio City) it's just that these neighborhoods are not destinations and are not visible from major thoroughfares. You'd be surprised how nice some neighborhoods get to the east or west of 117th, but to the passer by, you'd never notice.

 

It's not really a question of how Cleveland can fix the downward trend. It's how can the region fix the downward trend. When as a region we will start to gain population? Once that happens,  it's a matter of getting people to the core.

 

 

You might be right about some of those areas, but the Mill Creek development is in Garfield Heights, not exactly a suburb on the rise (quite the opposite), so of course homes are only 79k there.

 

As far as fixing the downward trend for the region, I have no idea. It's obvious why people are leaving areas that have issues with education, crime, and poverty. Those areas account for absolutely huge parts of the city itself, which is a serious problem. But why are they leaving the nicer suburbs outside of Cleveland too? If nicer places like Lakewood, Shaker Heights, Fairview Park, Beachwood (and the list goes on...) can't even keep people.....then how in the world can you turn an entire region around?

 

 

 

For the education, crime, and poverty issues, building new large neighborhoods of houses can help. If you have an area full of $200,000 to $300,000 homes then that helps the poverty issue in that area. It also affects the crime levels because higher incomes often lead to lower crime. Schools is an issue that needs to be addressed in a different mannor though.

 

I think there are a lot of variables and the economic factors of the last 3 years have not helped.

 

Example, CH and SH.  Two the Cuyahoga county's prestigious old money suburbs. With that prestige comes high taxes, but excellent city services and schools.

 

A lot of people living in those cities were able to maintain a certain lifestyle although they bitched about the high taxes.  When the economy tanked and household incomes fell, being able to maintain, became just that.  This is partially why you see high percentage of SH/CH residents leave.  It's not that the do not want to be there, but they can no longer afford to stay.

 

My cousin moved from Beachwood to CH this summer and it was a three ring circus, with the person selling and their new buyer. The folks from CH were moving to University Circle; my cousin moved from BW to CH; the people that my cousin sold his house to were from Bainbridge/Aurora (IIRC, but somewhere in that area).

 

The folks that move to University Circle could no longer afford to live in CH and didn't need "that" much house.  They had one kid at home (2/3 in college?).  The parents both work in University Circle and received incentives from their employers to move into the area, plus lower taxes.  The kid in HS, got into John Hay.  The people in Bainbridge went into short sale, the bank took their house sold it but worked a loan so they could buy in BW.  All of that took 9+ months.

 

Poverty, crime and schools are not the major factors, it's income.

 

Granted we'll still see people "keep up appearances" while losing their shirts, just to say I live in x suburb, when they could move in closer and actually have a life, take advantage of and appreciate all the amenities the city itself offers.

And our MSA has continually gained population, even through the most recent census (2000.)  Why are we wringing our hands about *estimated* population loss, anyway?  The 1999 census estimate overestimated Cleveland's population by 23,000 people and underestimated Marion County, Indiana by 50,000.  Who knows what the actual numbers are?

 

Let's all take a deep breath and wait till March or whenever they release the official figures before we conclude that the sky is falling.

As to one who was counted in the Cleveland numbers in the 2000 census but left for another city (Seattle), I can give some insight as to why I left Cleveland, from my point of view at least.

 

1. Economy - it's tough to find a decent job in Cleveland. I make 3x the salary I did while living in Cleveland.

2. Culture - there's really not much in Cleveland compared to the coasts

3. Recreation - no real skiing, beaches, hiking, climbing, ect.

4. Public schools - nuff said

5. Downtown - most first impressions are of a city center, Cleveland doesn't exactly impress

6. Attitude - Clevelanders are REALLY defensive

7. It's just downright a depressing place to be

 

 

Moving out of Cleveland was the best thing I've ever done. I know I'll get attacked for expressing my experience, however I really don't think Cleveland can escape the downward spiral. Cleveland needs that one thing that makes it special compared to other cities and it just doesn't have it.

 

 

As to one who was counted in the Cleveland numbers in the 2000 census but left for another city (Seattle), I can give some insight as to why I left Cleveland, from my point of view at least.

 

1. Economy - it's tough to find a decent job in Cleveland. I make 3x the salary I did while living in Cleveland.

2. Culture - there's really not much in Cleveland compared to the coasts

3. Recreation - no real skiing, beaches, hiking, climbing, ect.

4. Public schools - nuff said

5. Downtown - most first impressions are of a city center, Cleveland doesn't exactly impress

6. Attitude - Clevelanders are REALLY defensive

7. It's just downright a depressing place to be

 

 

Moving out of Cleveland was the best thing I've ever done. I know I'll get attacked for expressing my experience, however I really don't think Cleveland can escape the downward spiral. Cleveland needs that one thing that makes it special compared to other cities and it just doesn't have it.

 

 

 

Not to get too far off topic, but I don't blame anyone for living where they want to live.  I consider myself fairly traveled (been to about 36 states, Western Europe twice, Persian Gulf, Eastern Europe briefly, Mexico), and I choose to live in the City of Cleveland.  A good explanation is expressed very well from Anthony Bourdain: http://blog.travelchannel.com/anthony-bourdain/read/the-original-goodbye-splendor/

 

Also, there is just so much momentum going on in Cleveland these past two years.  Check out this list of projects: http://www.city-data.com/forum/cleveland/306380-cleveland-development-discussions-27.html#post15965334

 

As for population, once Cleveland turns the corner again and starts gaining, it will create such a collective psychological feeling of “Finally! We can push forward.”  Don’t you realize that’s what motivates people to live here, to make the place better?

1. Economy - it's tough to find a decent job in Cleveland. I make 3x the salary I did while living in Cleveland.

 

I've switched jobs twice (I work in IT, I saw you work in IT as well on another thread at one point) and both times I had absolutely no problem finding a better job.  I'm guessing you had an entry level job and upgraded to a better position (due to having experience on your resume) when you moved to Seattle.  I upgraded my position and salary easily here, so your anecdotal evidence doesn't say much about the IT job situation in Cleveland.  Surely, the average IT salary in Seattle isn't 3x what it is in Cleveland.

 

You obviously enjoy Seattle more and I say "good for you".  But don't belittle those of us who don't have the subjective distaste for Cleveland you somehow acquired (all 6 of your other points were very subjective and easily debatable).

what is the best neighborhood in the university circle area?

For the love of Vishnu, can we pleeeeease try to stay on topic?

For the love of Vishnu, can we pleeeeease try to stay on topic?

 

ROFLMAO.  I damn near choked on my soda!

 

This is where is say, "Laaaaaawd!"

nearly doesn't count

 

 

:evil:

nearly doesn't count

 

 

>:D

 

It's right above Garfield Heights. I wasn't exactly sure of GH's borders, but still, its surrounded by undesirable areas whereas Strongsville is not.

 

The weather certainly doesn't help, but the population is still increasing in metro areas with similar weather. The MSAs of Chicago, Minneapolis, and even Milwaukee increased in population from 2000 to 2009. Granted, the weather isn't as bad in those cities, but they don't exactly have Los Angeles-esque weather either. They still manage to attract people though. So what's stopping Cleveland from being more like them and less like Buffalo?

• It surround by undesirable areas?
  
• MSA of Chicago increased?
  
• The weather in Cleveland is worse than MINNEAPOLIS OR MILWAUKEE??? 
  

Are you kidding me?  :wtf:    :wtf: :wtf:

Yes? It's in the fourth district. The same fourth district that had the most homicides last year - 49. Granted, the bodies from the Howell case are included, but even without those it'd be at 38. The second worst district had 24. The little development itself may be safe, but the areas around it? Erm, not so much.

 

According to the census estimates here, the Chicago-Naperville-Joliet MSA increased in population. By 5.3% to be exact. The city of Chicago itself lost people (-1.5% according to city-data estimations), but the MSA did not.

 

Assuming you are factoring in more than the temperature, yes, I'd say the weather is worse. Cleveland has a slightly higher average temperature, but as WestBLVD pointed out Cleveland also has more snow and more cloudy days overall (I didn't even realize the differential in cloudy days until now - quite depressing).

 

 

Does University Heights need to be different from Cleveland Heights? Can't Westlake, Rocky River, and Bay Village be their own suburb?

 

Well, as long as Cleveland Heights continues to engage in their misguided and failed social engineering projects, then the answer to that question is "yes."  If you were to propose a merger (anschluss is a better word) with CH to UH residents, it would fail miserably.  Just because the two cities share a school district doesn't mean that they're identical.  Most UH residents want nothing to do with CH, as evidenced by the fact that UH residents use private schools at a higher percentage than any other suburb in the region.

 

If UH should be merged with any city, it should be either Shaker Heights or Beachwood.  UH has more in common with those cities than it does with CH.  Additionally, the western suburban examples you cited are all more similar to each other than CH and UH.

Clevelander17, I am interested in learning more about these socical engineering projects, and the independent surveys done to gage the level of success.  I haven't seen any studies.  Can you provide a link to these studies?

Clevelander17, I am interested in learning more about these socical engineering projects, and the independent surveys done to gage the level of success.  I haven't seen any studies.  Can you provide a link to these studies?

 

Oh nice, I respect your slight twist on an otherwise typical response.  :wave:

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a civility class to attend.

 

No seriously, I think there are plenty of us who really want to know what you're referring to by "social engineering projects."  If these aren't actual projects with a source that's fine, I'd like to hear about it regardless.

No seriously, I think there are plenty of us who really want to know what you're referring to by "social engineering projects."  If these aren't actual projects with a source that's fine, I'd like to hear about it regardless.

 

Okay, I'll play along.  There were several articles in peer reviewed journals about it.  I'm surprised you guys haven't heard about this stuff.  :whip:

Please... enlighten us.  I would like to know more.  Cleve17, you spend a lot of time giving what I think are emotional responses that are packaged as fact.  Please clarify so I don't have to feel that I am wasting my time reading your posts.  And please... when someone requests a source for your statements, please just give a source, or state that you made it up, rather than being a smart *ss.  You're taking the enjoyment out of reading these posts. 

You realize that UH has a lot of orthodox jews, who send their kids to their own schools, not public, regardless of what district they reside in.

Please... enlighten us. I would like to know more. Cleve17, you spend a lot of time giving what I think are emotional responses that are packaged as fact. Please clarify so I don't have to feel that I am wasting my time reading your posts. And please... when someone requests a source for your statements, please just give a source, or state that you made it up, rather than being a smart *ss. You're taking the enjoyment out of reading these posts.

 

Oh, I'm the one being the "smart*ss"?  Thanks for the laugh.  You guys are here arguing ridiculous semantics.  Call it whatever you want, but the point is that Cleveland Heights has and continues to enact pie-in-sky policies, while University Heights never gets involved in that kind of stuff.  The cities, whether you or anyone else likes it or not, are different.  UH is not some extension of CH, and quite frankly, as a citizen of UH, I'm sicking of people assuming that the cities are the same and should be merged.

You realize that UH has a lot of orthodox jews, who send their kids to their own schools, not public, regardless of what district they reside in.

 

No, I don't realize that.  Just like you don't realize that there are also a lot of other people, a larger chunk than the Orthodox Jews, who live here but use private schools because the local public schools are not a viable option for them.

^Fair point about people assuming that merger is self evidently logical for CH and UH when the residents may verywell disagree.  But I actually am curious what the policies you keep referring to generically are.  I'm not being a smart*ss, I honestly don't know what you mean.

You realize that UH has a lot of orthodox jews, who send their kids to their own schools, not public, regardless of what district they reside in.

 

No, I don't realize that.  Just like you don't realize that there are also a lot of other people, a larger chunk than the Orthodox Jews, who live here but use private schools because the local public schools are not a viable option for them.

 

Sure the schools are a "viable" option.  They just choose to seek "excellence" for their children, which admittedly CH-UH does not have in spades.  Nothing wrong with that.  If money was not an issue, I would send my kids to the best school money could buy.  That said, I am a CH-UH grad with a graduate degree, full-time job, family, house, cars.  And, personally, while my education might not have been all white picket fences, I think I am a better, more well rounded person with that experience. 

Back on topic, everybody.

Back on topic, everybody.