Wonderful news :-)

Pretty exciting.  I wonder if all of this activity/development in the flats will prompt the city to re-pave the roads, put in some curbs/sidewalks, remove concrete barriers & chain link fences, pick up litter, etc.  A facelift alone would make a big difference.

^ With this all happening at once (FEB, Casino, Rivergate) I would hope so as well.  The roads down there are some of the worst in the city.

 

Let's just put some more population down there a.k.a property owners. :)

you know i have always imagined an urban community, maybe 5-10 storey highrises down there. just the right height so they are under the bridges. could be really incredible. add a few canals and you have one of the coolest urban neighborhoods in the entire U.S...

^^Roads...I bet the sewers are the worse in the city....any development would require lots of help from the city for infrastructure improvements.

For those with Crain's subscriptions, there is an article this week on the Flats and some momentum going in there:

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20101011/SUB1/310119992/1071/TOC&Profile=1071

 

and a free podcast with some dicussion for those who don't have a sub:

 

http://e.ccialerts.com/a/hBMs2UGAJFIzoAJaUOuAYYiDvxX/ccl94-1

 

Interesting article (I just read it) - they even tease (again) Scranton Road Peninsula and Forest City wanting to connect it to the casino. Other then that it discusses the towpath, some businesses moving in, and a short mention of the East Banks project, which it says is still stalled.

 

The most interesting quote is "Forest City didn't pay $2 million for this property in the 1980s to use it as a parking lot". 

Cmoooon mixed use riverfront development  :-D

Thanks pcforsgren.  You might not have noticed that we now have a thread dedicated to flats development (non-FEB).

Ah I did not.  I haven't been on the site in a while and missed the new thread.  I'll be happy to take this discussion over there.

From Michael McIntyre's Tipoff column on cleveland.com this morning:

 

"The Children's Museum, which occupies a tired space in University Circle, is considering a move to the Powerhouse on the west bank of Cleveland's Flats, according to sources. It could be a smart move pairing the museum with a new aquarium planned for much of the Powerhouse space.

 

It's also possible that the museum will stay put and make major renovations. It's on a month-to-month deal with University Circle, Inc., which owns the current building.

 

The museum's financial picture has improved recently, giving it options."

 

http://www.cleveland.com/tipoff/index.ssf/2010/11/clevelander_joe_eszterhas_rips.html

Yeah... that location sucks, but I hope it stays in UC. 

 

I thought the proposal for the powerhouse aquarium had died.... or at least died down?

I really hope that the Children's Museum does not move out of University Circle. It just wouldn't make any sense leaving that area filled with cultural institutions and life and progress for the West Bank of the flats. The Powerhouse can be confusing for some people to find, and sorry to say it but you have to drive through some pretty shitty stuff to reach it. University Circle just seems like the right place for them. And I don't see that aquarium ever happening, nor do I want it to.

I really hope that the Children's Museum does not move out of University Circle. It just wouldn't make any sense leaving that area filled with cultural institutions and life and progress for the West Bank of the flats. The Powerhouse can be confusing for some people to find, and sorry to say it but you have to drive through some pretty sh!tty stuff to reach it. University Circle just seems like the right place for them. And I don't see that aquarium ever happening, nor do I want it to.

 

What is so shitty?  I'm sure the people in Stonebridge wouldn't appreciate their neighborhood being referred to as "shitty".  And why is University Circle so "right" for this museum? 

 

Pairing it with an aquarium is good synergy and can be a catalyst for further growth and connectivity of the lake/river front districts.

 

I love the CM but it's location is a deterent in relation to the other museums.  I suggested they move to 105/west quad area.

 

 

Stonebridge is a really nice development but it is pretty much secluded to the superior viaduct. That area as a whole is far from being strong. University Circle neighborhood is growing and lots is going on. Its by other museums. I dont believe the aquarium in the powerhouse will ever happen. And I also believe that if the Children Museum moved to the west bank, they would lose visitors.

 

And Im trying to think in a Moms point of view. Driving down Washington Avenue isn't the best. You have the homeless on that one corner. You also have a strip club nearby.

"And Im trying to think in a Moms point of view. Driving down Washington Avenue isn't the best. You have the homeless on that one corner. You also have a strip club nearby."

 

I am so tired of this suburban attitude. Everyone wants the world to look like Disney World.  Where are all of the urban people?

You may be tired of it, but if you want things to be successful, you better take it into consideration.

You may be tired of it, but if you want things to be successful, you better take it into consideration.

 

Exactly, its not my point of view necessarily but I can see what is realistic. And I dont see putting the Children's Museum on the west bank of the flats is.

once again people have the attitude the flats should be sewer, a dumping ground of "undesirable" (not my words )people and only seedy businesses. If people want something better they are told they never should have moved there in the first place (if they are a resident) and like this thread indicates, the thought of even bringing something positive is met with negativity. Heaven forbid junior cast his gaze upon a homeless person on the way to the museum. I shudder to think of it.

Not sure why people are getting a chip on their shoulder about this.  It's laughable that the museum would move out there, and we all know it. 

If you don't think a place is good for kids, then change it. Urban land use isn't an uncontrollable function of nature.

My problem with this discussion is the same as most discussions involving downtown Cleveland.  It is always led by the suburbanites.  We should have more parks with benches, etc.  Where are the urban people in these discussions.  Do you think anyone in NYC is talking about how moving a museum downtown is a bad move?  To move the Children's museum to the powerhouse is a great idea.  The current space is terrible and this would be an incredible improvement. 

 

For all the people talking about how bad the west bank of the Flats is, when was the last time you were there?  Do you even know that it is a thriving entertainment area with bars, restaurants, and thousands of apartments/condos?  This thread is starting to read like Cleveland.dumb. I am getting really tired of the constant misconception about downtown Cleveland.

^ Agreed. And this is coming from someone with a naturalist background! 

I wouldn't call the West bank of the flats "downtown."  I wouldn't really call it a thriving entertainment district at the moment either.  I think that almost everyone on here is an urbanite or else they would not already be here.  I also think that University Circle is a very urban environment already and I don't think that moving it to the flats would really make it more "urban."  All that said however, the powerhouse is a cool space and maybe being closer to the west side would be an asset for them.  It would be more accessible to the highway too.  I think the powerhouse could work but it would be nice to have something else nearby to bring a little more life to that area if the children's museum does decide to move.

I've heard the people at Lolly the Trolley talk about how people have a hard time finding the powerhouse. We all know where it is so it seems silly to us but most of the people who do go on lolly the trolley or go to the Children's Museum live in the suburbs and do have a hard time getting to and navigating the westbank of the flats.

As of now, University Circle has a kind of momentum that is rare and remarkable when you consider the fact that we are a poor city in the middle of a long suffering rust belt in the middle of a global depression.  It just doesn't make any sense to move the Children's museum from it's well situated area to the Flats.

 

Despite the city's love of the word 'district', we only really have two true ones:  Theater and Arts.  The others are really just districts in name only.  Why support moving one of the staples of our arts district (my term for UC) to the Flats which has a more adult allure right now and the foreseeable future.  Why play musical chairs because of (let's be honest guys) doubtful project for an aquarium?  Why support stepping on UC's momentum?

 

Keep the museums nice and close to each other.  Keep UC a complete destination for museum hopping for people who want to hang around there all day. 

 

 

As of now, University Circle has a kind of momentum that is rare and remarkable when you consider the fact that we are a poor city in the middle of a long suffering rust belt in the middle of a global depression. It just doesn't make any sense to move the Children's museum from it's well situated area to the Flats.

 

Despite the city's love of the word 'district', we only really have two true ones: Theater and Arts. The others are really just districts in name only. Why support moving one of the staples of our arts district (my term for UC) to the Flats which has a more adult allure right now and the foreseeable future. Why play musical chairs because of (let's be honest guys) doubtful project for an aquarium?   Why support stepping on UC's momentum?

 

Keep the museums nice and close to each other.   Keep UC a complete destination for museum hopping for people who want to hang around there all day.

 

 

 

Nicely put! thats what ive been trying to say

Stonebridge is a really nice development but it is pretty much secluded to the superior viaduct. That area as a whole is far from being strong. University Circle neighborhood is growing and lots is going on. Its by other museums. I dont believe the aquarium in the powerhouse will ever happen. And I also believe that if the Children Museum moved to the west bank, they would lose visitors.

 

And Im trying to think in a Moms point of view. Driving down Washington Avenue isn't the best. You have the homeless on that one corner. You also have a strip club nearby.

 

How do you get to University Circle?  And what do you pass along the way?

 

I understand your point, but you're passing the same things when you're a mom going to University Circle, Playhouse Square, Progressive Field, Browns stadium, etc.  I pass the same things going to work downtown everyday.  And St. Malachi's Sunday church service is still very highly attended by people of all ages...and in case you didn't know, that's the source of all the homeless people who live in the shelter and come by to get food.

 

If you don't think the powerhouse is a good location for this, fine.  But that reason is pretty silly.

 

I've heard the people at Lolly the Trolley talk about how people have a hard time finding the powerhouse. We all know where it is so it seems silly to us but most of the people who do go on lolly the trolley or go to the Children's Museum live in the suburbs and do have a hard time getting to and navigating the westbank of the flats.

 

And people who don't come downtown have trouble finding W 6th, the Justice Center, E 4th and other major downtown places.  I know this because as I am walking my dogs in the west bank people stop and ask me for directions to these places all the time, and I instruct them how to get back up to W25th and Detroit, over the bridge, and to wherever they are going.

Not sure why people are getting a chip on their shoulder about this.  It's laughable that the museum would move out there, and we all know it. 

 

Because you're stating your opinion as if it was definitive fact.

Stonebridge is a really nice development but it is pretty much secluded to the superior viaduct. That area as a whole is far from being strong. University Circle neighborhood is growing and lots is going on. Its by other museums. I dont believe the aquarium in the powerhouse will ever happen. And I also believe that if the Children Museum moved to the west bank, they would lose visitors.

 

And Im trying to think in a Moms point of view. Driving down Washington Avenue isn't the best. You have the homeless on that one corner. You also have a strip club nearby.

 

Do you mean, a white woman, from the Suburbs, who hasn't been downtown in a while and has a preconcieved notion that the inner city is a bad place??

Cleveland's Children's Museum really does not compare well to Children's Museums in Cincinnati, Indianapolis, or Pittsburgh.  A new building would be a good start.  The Powerhouse is not the easiest to get to, but IF an aquarium and some other child-friendly places came to the Powerhouse it could work out well in the long run.

My problem with this discussion is the same as most discussions involving downtown Cleveland. It is always led by the suburbanites. We should have more parks with benches, etc. Where are the urban people in these discussions. Do you think anyone in NYC is talking about how moving a museum downtown is a bad move? To move the Children's museum to the powerhouse is a great idea. The current space is terrible and this would be an incredible improvement.

 

For all the people talking about how bad the west bank of the Flats is, when was the last time you were there? Do you even know that it is a thriving entertainment area with bars, restaurants, and thousands of apartments/condos? This thread is starting to read like Cleveland.dumb. I am getting really tired of the constant misconception about downtown Cleveland.

 

I've lived downtown for 4 years and currently live on the East Bank of the Flats, overlooking the river.  My windows face the Powerhouse and I agree it's a bad location for the Children's Museum to relocate to.

 

TMH, I'm all for prepping up the city, but you'll going a little far in calling it a (currently) "thriving entertainment area".  Yes, there are things like - the Improv Comedy Club, Shooters, Christie's, Larry Flynt's Hustler Club, Harbor Inn, Powerhouse Pub (male strippers on Thursday nights!) Flat Iron Cafe, etc.  But none of these things scream "Bring your children here!"  You seriously can't see why University Circle is a better place for a Children's Museum than the Flats?  UC is a hub of museums.  The Flats is a hub of adult entertainment.

 

I'm not even saying "moving a museum downtown is a bad move".  Get rid of the Coast Guard and put the Children's Museum next to the Rock Hall.  But acting like different parts of downtown aren't better for certain projects than others is just ignorant.

My problem with this discussion is the same as most discussions involving downtown Cleveland.  It is always led by the suburbanites.  We should have more parks with benches, etc.  Where are the urban people in these discussions.  Do you think anyone in NYC is talking about how moving a museum downtown is a bad move?  To move the Children's museum to the powerhouse is a great idea.  The current space is terrible and this would be an incredible improvement. 

 

For all the people talking about how bad the west bank of the Flats is, when was the last time you were there?  Do you even know that it is a thriving entertainment area with bars, restaurants, and thousands of apartments/condos?  This thread is starting to read like Cleveland.dumb. I am getting really tired of the constant misconception about downtown Cleveland.

 

I've lived downtown for 4 years and currently live on the East Bank of the Flats, overlooking the river.  My windows face the Powerhouse and I agree it's a bad location for the Children's Museum to relocate to.

 

TMH, I'm all for prepping up the city, but you'll going a little far in calling it a (currently) "thriving entertainment area".  Yes, there are things like - the Improv Comedy Club, Shooters, Christie's, Larry Flynt's Hustler Club, Harbor Inn, Powerhouse Pub (male strippers on Thursday nights!) Flat Iron Cafe, etc.  But none of these things scream "Bring your children here!"  You seriously can't see why University Circle is a better place for a Children's Museum than the Flats?  UC is a hub of museums.  The Flats is a hub of adult entertainment.

 

I'm not even saying "moving a museum downtown is a bad move".  Get rid of the Coast Guard and put the Children's Museum next to the Rock Hall.  But acting like different parts of downtown aren't better for certain projects than others is just ignorant.

 

jboroger, you're thinking in an antquated way.

 

Who says those things CANNOT all work together.  Any child going to the museum or aquarium would not be going to the establishments listed earlier.

 

Again, this is a perfect example of people saying, "x wont work here or there because of Y", because they cannot look outside the box.

 

We as a city claim we wont more and want to emulate (ie use their best practices), to a degree, cities with various thriving districts/neighborhoods.

 

However, we want white wash everything and expect a clean slate (suburban thinking) for every development.

 

Part of the problem with greater Clevelands youth and people in their mid 20-30's is they've rarely seen diversity and have been shelter from any sense of urbane living.

 

However, they go to another city like NYC, Boston, Philly & DC and claim those cities are so great when we have the same opportunities for greatness here.  The foundation is already laid.

 

I still dont understand why some "mom" would be affraid to go to the powerhouse?  Is she affraid to see reality?  People of differen incomes?  Ethnic backgrounds?  Grit?  Is she affriad that if she doesn't see a McMansion she'll be out of place?

I think the Aquarium and the Children's Museam should both go on the lot north of CBS.  They would both be projects the PA could build off of in its attempt to develop that land.  I don't care much for the Powerhouse option (for both the aquarium and the museam) and I can't really think of an ideal place in UC.

I think the Aquarium and the Children's Museam should both go on the lot north of CBS.  They would both be projects the PA could build off of in its attempt to develop that land.  I don't care much for the Powerhouse option (for both the aquarium and the museam) and I can't really think of an ideal place in UC.

 

I think they would de well on the west side of CBS.  reduce a lane of traffic and that parking lot, enhance the gardens and you've got a winner.

I think the Aquarium and the Children's Museam should both go on the lot north of CBS. They would both be projects the PA could build off of in its attempt to develop that land. I don't care much for the Powerhouse option (for both the aquarium and the museam) and I can't really think of an ideal place in UC.

 

I think they would de well on the west side of CBS. reduce a lane of traffic and that parking lot, enhance the gardens and you've got a winner.

 

Back on topic!

The Downtown Self Storage Building has a new owner and he has been busy with transforming the upper floors with a lot of remodeling. It looks really nice, and I went to a party there last month. I believe the self storage component will stay, but the upper floors will now be artists' space. Future plans include a coffee shop on the ground floor and a green roof. http://downtownselfstoragecleveland.com/

^Cool!  That building is an awesome slice of old school Flats.

The Downtown Self Storage Building has a beaaauuuutiful freight elevator. Good to see that it will be used.. the upper floors would be an awesome space!

*scowls*

 

Owner looks to demolish building in Cleveland's Flats that housed Jim's Steak House

By STAN BULLARD

8:50 am, November 30, 2010

 

The landmark building in Cleveland's Flats that long housed Jim's Steak House will fall to the wrecking ball if property owner Scranton Averell Corp. has its way.

 

Tom Stickney, president of Scranton Averell, said the company wants to demolish the former restaurant and nightclub at 1800 Scranton Ave. because it is beyond repair.

 

 

More at: http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20101130/FREE/101139983/1004/

^The stated rationale is not... well.... rational.  Demolish the building because the $1100 annual tax bill is too heavy a burden?  How much will it cost to demolish?  I would bet a good bit more than 10 years worth of tax payments.

I ponder the future of the spot....and shudder to think of a new parking lot in its place? Ugh!

 

Until the property can be utilized for something...a river park area would be nice, but then the burden of watch and maintain would be a factor and the city, currently, grades average to low on follow up aspects like that, IMO.

^^Seriously.

 

The Flats as a real place and not simply a well located topographical feature is disappearing fast. 

Even though I'm not a fan of demolitions, I don't really see that much of a problem with this one. 

 

If this is the building I'm thinking of, I can't see a parking lot going in at that location, simply because there's nothing around it that would need parking.  There's a closed firehouse on one side and a small business surrounded by chainlink and barbed wire on the other.  I'd love to see development down there, but I think that the Scranton Peninsula has been so decimated by demolitions and abandonment, there's really hardly anything left worth saving.  Rebuilding a neighborhood from scratch à la Stonebridge is the only real way I see anything worthwhile happening.

And I also wonder, with all the extra parking....and the demolishing of everything to make way for it....What purpose would all the parking be if there is nothing to park for!

There is a truck facility just to the west, which, if they were so inclined, would be interested in purchasing that land. However, the Scranton Averill trust (which owns the Jim's property as well as 75% of the Scranton Peninsula) has never sold property as far as I can remember. They own the land that Cleveland Rowing Foundation is vacating to move to Rivergate. They own the old iron works site. Pretty much if it is on the Peninsula and is not occupied, they own it. This is just par for the course until development extends across from Downtown or down from Tremont and Ohio City.

^I thought Forest City owned more of Scranton Peninsula than Scranton Averill Trust.  Is this not so?

 

In case anyone is interested, here's an old UO thread all about Scranton Peninsula, which came up a bit in the convention center siting discussions: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=4043.0

Forest City has a partnership with Scranton Averell. FCE doesn't actually own property on Scranton Peninsula, per se. See this article about the CRF move to Rivergate: http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20090921/FREE/309219938/1018/resources

 

If you look at a map (http://goo.gl/maps/wh5F), SA owns all of the property bordered by Scranton Road to the east, the railroad tracks to the west, the Lorain Carnegie Bridge to the south, and the Cuyahoga River to the north. They actually own the property north of Carter Road on which the truck depot and the boat facilities are located. They also own the parcel where CRF is presently located. Also, they own the Ferry Cap and Screw property on University and Scranton, and the property on the Cuyahoga River underneath the Innerbelt Bridge.

 

Carter Peninsula Inc owns the rest of the peninsula west of the railroad tracks and south of CRF. The land east of Scranton (along the River, including the old Scaravelli Marina) was sold for the Towpath Trail by John Ferchill and Wolstein.

 

So, three owners have all of the Peninsula. No joke.

^Ah yes, thanks for the good detailed info.  I think I mixed up Averill Trust with Scaravelli and was stuck in 2005.

I don't think this building was really anything special- architecturally it's nondescript and set back behind a parking lot.  If it goes, I won't shed a tear for it.