That's exciting.  This is one of those development ideas/areas that I didn't think was ever really going to take off, but with a big tenant, that makes it way more realistic.

This is great and I hope it works out; that said, I’d rather see this on the Columbus or Scranton peninsulas. Neither one of those is anywhere near critical mass of redevelopment yet. Cleveland Whiskey could have helped those areas more quickly reach their potential and I think it is more important to get those areas going.  (I don’t even know what this peninsula is called. Collision Bend Peninsula? Stones Levee Peninsula?) There aren’t any low level bridges from this peninsula to OC or Duck Island, so it’s going to feel very disconnected.  The low level W3rd bridge to Tremont isn’t particularly direct to the residential area. In contrast, both Columbus and Scranton are already nicely connected to both sides of the river, and @KJP’s awesome Viaduct infill Red Line station proposal could really make the Columbus peninsula shine. At least this proposal would have an easy connection to downtown, especially the Gateway area. But there is NOTHING there right now - just big piles of gravel and whatever else came in on the lake freighters.  The trails are all on the other side of the river in this area. I hate to be cynical on a nice investment like this; it just feels like a miss. 
 

Here’s a thought - install a staircase up to the Lorain Carnegie Bridge top deck and the nice pedestrian lanes. At least it would be something. 

10 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

This is great and I hope it works out; that said, I’d rather see this on the Columbus or Scranton peninsulas. Neither one of those is anywhere near critical mass of redevelopment yet. Cleveland Whiskey could have helped those areas more quickly reach their potential and I think it is more important to get those areas going.  (I don’t even know what this peninsula is called. Collision Bend Peninsula? Stones Levee Peninsula?) There aren’t any low level bridges from this peninsula to OC or Duck Island, so it’s going to feel very disconnected.  The low level W3rd bridge to Tremont isn’t particularly direct to the residential area. In contrast, both Columbus and Scranton are already nicely connected to both sides of the river, and @KJP’s awesome Viaduct infill Red Line station proposal could really make the Columbus peninsula shine. At least this proposal would have an easy connection to downtown, especially the Gateway area. But there is NOTHING there right now - just big piles of gravel and whatever else came in on the lake freighters.  The trails are all on the other side of the river in this area. I hate to be cynical on a nice investment like this; it just feels like a miss. 
 

Here’s a thought - install a staircase up to the Lorain Carnegie Bridge top deck and the nice pedestrian lanes. At least it would be something. 

 

Add a station on the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic RR at Flats South! ? 

11 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Add a station on the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic RR at Flats South! ? 

Love it, but that would top out at like what, four trains a day?

1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

Add a station on the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic RR at Flats South! ? 

 

But the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic RR doesn't go this far....hey wait!  Are you dropping those KJP hints again?

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/originals/flats-south-area-lands-cleveland-whiskey-as-developers-look-to-bring-artists-makers-to-the-river

 

Edited July 2, 20204 yr by skiwest

17 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

(I don’t even know what this peninsula is called. Collision Bend Peninsula? Stones Levee Peninsula?)

 

The news 5 article has pictures of marketing material. Looks like they are going to try to brand this area as Flats South Bank.

 

And regarding connectivity we've talked before about rebuilding the Eagle Ave bridge, which would connect Scranton Peninsula to this development. That would help both areas a ton.

 

Edited July 2, 20204 yr by Mendo

coming soon! (sorry, just saw this in a work related site couldn't help myself lol).

 

I like the name “Flats Bank South” - it quickly gives an idea of where the location actually is and it strengthens the Flats “brand”.  Seems like there are a lot of neighborhood names in a small area already - this is simple- and it actually is a little more romantic than the reality - at least for now.   But this is another very positive development and if it comes together it’ll be extremely cool. Cleveland has the opportunity for a truly unique residential and recreational draw. 

23 minutes ago, GISguy said:

coming soon! (sorry, just saw this in a work related site couldn't help myself lol).

 

Looks like Manhattan West in NYC? Part of Hudson Yards development?

Edited July 2, 20204 yr by Frmr CLEder

18 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

I don’t even know what this peninsula is called. Collision Bend Peninsula? Stones Levee Peninsula?

Most literature and projects I've seen call it West 3rd Street Peninsula. Not exactly a catchy name though, so the name change makes sense.

2 hours ago, Mendo said:

 

The news 5 article has pictures of marketing material. Looks like they are going to try to brand this area as Flats South Bank.

 

And regarding connectivity we've talked before about rebuilding the Eagle Ave bridge, which would connect Scranton Peninsula to this development. That would help both areas a ton.

 

Are they trying to put a police district station there or something? And Loomis isn’t related to THAT Loomis is it? ??

I didn't know a river could have more than two banks.  But I suppose a crooked river could.

On 7/2/2020 at 11:26 AM, Frmr CLEder said:

Looks like Manhattan West in NYC? Part of Hudson Yards development?

 

ha it took me a bit to be sure but you are right good call — it is the hudson yards and hy neighborhood, but not manhattan west though.

 

thats an older pic of 50 hy on the right and the spiral on the left. its taken from next to the 7 train station entrance.

 

funny thing to me about it is just left of that and a block north, next to the white/tan bldg you can see a bit of, outta nowhere an entire condo tower has already been built out and completed called hudson 36.

 

I remember that area well. In 2007, there was a Valentine's Day ice storm. I was heading towards the Lincoln Tunnel approach, spun out on a patch of black ice and almost totaled my car.

Here's more on Flats South.  

 

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/whats-going-on-with/a-new-neighborhood-with-its-first-big-name-tenant-has-been-preparing-for-the-spotlight-for-a-year

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 20204 yr by skiwest

^ This was great to see. Props to News5 for a very well done segment. 

 

* and yet another AG artist mural sighting! 

First look: ‘Vision for the Valley’ plan for the Flats, Cuyahoga River ready for Wednesday unveiling online

 

 

By Steven Litt, cleveland.com

CLEVELAND, Ohio — With apologies to Rodgers and Hammerstein, the soundtrack for a new long range plan for the Flats and the Cuyahoga River in Cleveland could be “The Farmer and the Cowman Should be Friends,” a song from the 1943 musical “Oklahoma.‘'

That’s because the Flats — the flood plain on either side of the river — has been the scene of a slow-motion land-use war for decades.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/07/first-look-vision-for-the-valley-plan-for-the-flats-cuyahoga-river-ready-for-wednesday-unveiling-online.html

3 hours ago, Cleburger said:

First look: ‘Vision for the Valley’ plan for the Flats, Cuyahoga River ready for Wednesday unveiling online

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/07/first-look-vision-for-the-valley-plan-for-the-flats-cuyahoga-river-ready-for-wednesday-unveiling-online.html

 

Great to hear more about these plans. Here's a usable version of the study map that is actually legible: https://cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/advancelocal/YCIIVXO7FVCO3NK35DV6H7WMBM.jpg

 

Quote

Using zoning and other tools to create continuous waterfront promenades extending from the entertainment and housing districts near the mouth of the river south to the Lorain-Carnegie Bridge.

 

 

This area in particular would be key! (as seen from the Brew Boat)

 

I keep editing this post because I love so many parts of the spirit of the plan:

 

Quote

Extending the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad, which operates between Akron and Rockside Road, north into Tower City Center.

 

So big to have this type of direct connection. The CVSR makes long one way trips so nice in Combination with the Bike Aboard! program.

 

Quote

Turning one track of the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority’s Waterfront Line into a multi-purpose greenway trail.

 

Connectivity in/out of the flats is so big, especially beyond vehicular traffic.

 

Quote

· Carving a new safe harbor for small craft into the West Third Street Peninsula

 

Absolutely important in helping to SHARE the river in harmonious uses forced to be juxtaposed together between the industrial roots as an active shipping channel and the rediscovery of the river as a recreational asset as its water quality has improved.

 

Quote

Automating and centralizing control of all lift and swing bridges.

 

I just have to stop myself. I love how holistic this plan is.

Edited July 26, 20204 yr by infrafreak

 

For this narrow section I have proposed simply continuing the boardwalk along the front of these buildings, where the sidewalk is. 

Quote

Turning one track of the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority’s Waterfront Line into a multi-purpose greenway trail.

 

Why are so many people so intrested in putting more people in harm's way by putting publicly accessible trails next to railroad or transit tracks? It is a really dangerous and dumb idea. Second of all, RTA is not going to run a single-track transit line. They do not trust their dispatchers and train operators to avoid head-on collisions. If they did, we would have a single-track Blue Line extension to Highland Hills. A single-track extension would have been cost-effective enough to justify federal funding. The double-track extension (which RTA would only consider because they don't trust their dispatchers and drivers) was too expensive and couldn't overcome that cost with enough ridership to justify federal funding.

 

Maybe if someone actually reached out to RTA (or other property owners) before coming up with ideas, these ideas would never see the light of day.

Edited July 26, 20204 yr by KJP

4 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Why are so many people so intrested in putting more people in harm's way by putting publicly accessible trails next to railroad or transit tracks? It is a really dangerous and dumb idea. Second of all, RTA is not going to run a single-track transit line. They do not trust their dispatchers and train operators to avoid head-on collisions. If they did, we would have a single-track Blue Line extension to Highland Hills. A single-track extension would have been cost-effective enough to justify federal funding. The double-track extension (which RTA would only consider because they don't trust their dispatchers and drivers) was too expensive and couldn't overcome that cost with enough ridership to justify federal funding.

 

Maybe if someone actually reached out to RTA (or other property owners) before coming up with ideas, these ideas would never see the light of day.

 

This article was so full of ideas that I overlooked this. Your idea for an elevated infill red line station with connections to the greenway trail is the real winner in my eyes.

On 7/26/2020 at 11:20 AM, infrafreak said:

Quote

Turning one track of the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority’s Waterfront Line into a multi-purpose greenway trail.

 

 

On 7/26/2020 at 4:42 PM, KJP said:

Why are so many people so intrested in putting more people in harm's way by putting publicly accessible trails next to railroad or transit tracks?

 

I mean, looking at the map, why not put the trails next to both? Scenic views of . . . the port, the company A stadium, the sad amtrak station, and parking? I don't get it.

 

Because railroad and rail transit rights of way are not public rights of way and they are dangerous for trained employees to be next to,  let alone the general public. The railroads and transit agencies are already paying high liability insurance premiums.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Because railroad and rail transit rights of way are not public rights of way and they are dangerous for trained employees to be next to,  let alone the general public. The railroads and transit agencies are already paying high liability insurance premiums.

I beg to differ, there are plenty of Rails with trails throughout the United States. Ohio even has a handful of them. I biked one out in Rittman, OH a couple of weekends ago. The RTA greenway would be a big hit/draw for the city.

7 hours ago, PAZUZU said:

I beg to differ, there are plenty of Rails with trails throughout the United States. Ohio even has a handful of them. I biked one out in Rittman, OH a couple of weekends ago. The RTA greenway would be a big hit/draw for the city.

 

Abandoned rail lines are an entirely different situation than putting a greenway right next to active tracks.  

9 hours ago, PAZUZU said:

I beg to differ, there are plenty of Rails with trails throughout the United States. Ohio even has a handful of them. I biked one out in Rittman, OH a couple of weekends ago. The RTA greenway would be a big hit/draw for the city.

 

Apples and oranges 

FWIW, it's really not that uncommon to put public trails immediately adjacent to active rail lines. The Red Line Greenway is the most obvious local example, but there are several others around the country. Seems fine as long as it's properly designed.

 

But for pretty much the same reason the WFL is so useless, I'm not sure what we'd really gain by adding a multiuse path.  Maybe that was @jawn's point.  

Not THAT close. We're talking about putting a trail where the opposing track is, whose centerline is less than 25 feet from the opposing track's center line. The only one like that which I'm familiar with is the Sugar House Streetcar in Salt Lake City, but I don't think its trail is even that close.

 

And it's not relevant unless RTA consents to a single-track rail corridor, which I'd bet that they would never do. If they did, then it's time to revisit the Blue Line extension. 

16 hours ago, KJP said:

Because railroad and rail transit rights of way are not public rights of way and they are dangerous for trained employees to be next to,  let alone the general public. The railroads and transit agencies are already paying high liability insurance premiums.

 

3 hours ago, StapHanger said:

But for pretty much the same reason the WFL is so useless, I'm not sure what we'd really gain by adding a multiuse path.  Maybe that was @jawn's point.  

 

@StapHanger Pretty much nailed it. Aside from logistical issues with the RTA, putting a walking and biking trail either next to the WFL and a freight line or between them seems comically dangerous. Putting a trail there doesn't even give access to the lake - the trail would be boxed in by industry and 90.

48 minutes ago, jawn said:

 

 

@StapHanger Pretty much nailed it. Aside from logistical issues with the RTA, putting a walking and biking trail either next to the WFL and a freight line or between them seems comically dangerous. Putting a trail there doesn't even give access to the lake - the trail would be boxed in by industry and 90.

 

I think there's precedent for successful integration, and the Rails to Trails Conservancy has had a few nice projects.  I think it could be responsibly designed to be safe. 

 

 

The railroad line in the top photo appears to be out of service or at best exempted track with a top speed of 10 mph.

 

The track in the lower photo is of a higher standard, perhaps FRA Class 2 or 3, so the trail is not built on what would be in the track space of a reverse directional track. It's a little bit farther away.

 

And I'll bet in bet in both cases, the railroad fought hard to prevent the construction of these trails. Sadly, governments and trail advocates continue to intrude on rail corridors, even going so far to advocate for ripping up active track. It's very sad how much Americans disregard their rail system.

The Camp Chase Trail southwest of Columbus runs next to a railroad line and actually crosses the grade a handful of times. I'm not aware of any issues. It seems less dangerous than riding your bike on the road, at least a train won't suddenly open its door in front of you, run into you because it was distracted. 

Edited July 30, 20204 yr by 17thState
Added a few pictures for context

Another FRA exempted track with track speeds that don't exceed 10 mph. And the trail is not on a parallel track space whose centerline is 25 feet from the centerline of the existing track. Again, what is being proposed for the Flats simply is not done except in rare cases (such as the formerly doubletrack Panhandle Line through Newark). I keep saying it -- the proposal would remove an active track and RTA doesn't run single-track transit lines.

Meanwhile....

 

 

^ cool -- next, handball courts there and at edgewater park?

Paddle Tennis - Crain's article - https://www.newsbreak.com/ohio/cleveland/news/1614315809430/flats-is-set-to-land-600000-platform-tennis-center

Edited November 30, 20204 yr by GISguy

^ Great pic. Progress is glacial on this phase. I posted a pic on the FEB thread in mid-June that looks identical.  I can see why they’re taking their time though. There’s hardly a rush for new restaurants. 

 

Edited August 14, 20204 yr by roman totale XVII

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/a-look-at-the-future-of-flats-south-racial-justice-talk-in-ohio-city-and-new-life-for-old-bikes

One thing I’ve “rediscovered” during covid is a love for being out in parks, on paths and in cool outside plazas and spaces that invite pedestrian activity.  Obviously, by necessity, our lives have shifted to embracing these areas more than ever.  Neighborhoods that we think of as urban, which simultaneously offer socialization and a chance to be outside will only continue to attract residents and neighboring businesses that cater to those residents. I’m excited to see a new embracing of opportunities presented by burgeoning neighborhoods such as Flats South.  (  I think that name is sticking.)

49 minutes ago, CleveFan said:

One thing I’ve “rediscovered” during covid is a love for being out in parks, on paths and in cool outside plazas and spaces that invite pedestrian activity.  Obviously, by necessity, our lives have shifted to embracing these areas more than ever.  Neighborhoods that we think of as urban, which simultaneously offer socialization and a chance to be outside will only continue to attract residents and neighboring businesses that cater to those residents. I’m excited to see a new embracing of opportunities presented by burgeoning neighborhoods such as Flats South.  (  I think that name is sticking.)

 

I've been thinking the same.  As someone who spends a considerable amount of time in Europe (well at least I did, prior to COVID), it has reminded me of afternoons in Germany, Denmark, or France seeing entire families trekking to Edgewater together, with chairs on their back.   

13 hours ago, Cleburger said:

 

I've been thinking the same.  As someone who spends a considerable amount of time in Europe (well at least I did, prior to COVID), it has reminded me of afternoons in Germany, Denmark, or France seeing entire families trekking to Edgewater together, with chairs on their back.   

Just wait until Harbor Bay finishes Market Square at W. 25th & Lorain and (hopefully) the Irishtown Bend park gets built.  Ohio City is already the hottest neighborhood in the city, and when that vitality starts leaking into the South Flats, the Cuyahoga will catch "fire" in much better sense.

 

(P.S.:  "Flats South" is fine as a moniker, but why not go with "South Bank" to mix in with the existing "East" and "West" Banks further upstream?)

Edited August 17, 20204 yr by Down_with_Ctown

5 minutes ago, Down_with_Ctown said:

Just wait until Harbor Bay finished Market Square at W. 25th & Lorain and (hopefully) the Irishtown Bend park gets built.  Ohio City is already the hottest neighborhood in the city, and when that vitality starts leaking into the South Flats, the Cuyahoga will catch "fire" in much better sense.

 

(P.S.:  "Flats South" is fine as a moniker, but why not go with "South Bank" to mix in with the existing "East" and "West" Banks further upstream?)

I like South Bank! Good call. 

48 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

I like South Bank! Good call. 

"I'm taking my talents to [the] South Bank"

-some future tech firm relocating from the suburbs

I think The South Bank is a much better name. Especially if we can develop it even just one tenth of London’s!

 

 

 

21 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

I like South Bank! Good call. 

 

Or South Bend ?☘️

23 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

I like South Bank! Good call. 

 

Logically, then, the opposite side of the river at that point would be the North Bank, which on a map would be south of the East Bank.  More or less ...

Just now, Dougal said:

 

Logically, then, the opposite side of the river at that point would be the North Bank, which on a map would be south of the East Bank.  More or less ...