Good grief.  He's taking credit for everything, as usual.  Meanwhile, this is the first I've heard of a garage at 7th & Culvert St.  This is a pretty interesting news, because it seems to me that they're putting pressure on P&G. We've speculated a lot on here about P&G building another tower, and it seems to me that he wants a card to play when that happens.

 

What do you mean he wants a card to play with P&G? What site would P&G look at for a tower?

I don't see P&G building a tower anytime soon. As they are in the midst of a big layoff, sales are flat in the us, and they are on a major cost cutting strategy.

^ Agreed.  P&G has 0 plans to build a new tower downtown. If they are going to add anything, it's at their Winton Hills site, but even that is unlikely for the foreseeable future.

I've never understood all of these rumors about phantom plans by P&G to build a new tower.  No one I know in P&G has ever mentioned any inkling or desire for them to do so.  It's nothing but wishful thinking.

that Vine St. pic absolutely blows my mind. I've been looking at it for like 15 minutes. incredible.

 

That is what downtown looked like back then.  I have very fond memories of going downtown with my parents in the very early 80s and every block looked like that.  That was when a small retail store could survive.  There were little music stores, electronics stores, clothing stores, etc.  Now all that business goes to Target, Walmart, iTunes, and internet retailers.

>What site would P&G look at for a tower?

 

If I was them I'd think something directly opposite the Chiquita Building where the imperial gardens are now.  I'd think a new underground garage would be built where the park is now and the footprint of the new tower would be about 180x180 in the block's southwest corner.  I think overall the decision P&G made back in the early 80's to expand east toward Eggleston was in part because they knew they could get at all that cheap parking under and around I-71.  But I could be completely wrong and they'd build the new tower where the children's daycare was just built. 

 

I just have to imagine that for recruiting purposes alone bringing people into town those people are going expect P&G to be prominent in the skyline and instead their headquarters is kind of hidden.  I was in that cafe in the old P&G building one day 2-3 years ago when QCS was going up, and it was a bit funny realizing how much that thing was going to overwhelm P&G. 

 

 

>Now all that business goes to Target, Walmart, iTunes, and internet retailers.

 

The other thing is how there were retail businesses in the upper floors of some of the buildings.  You had to know they were there, but people did because they had been there so long.  There was a lot more word of mouth and it worked. 

>What site would P&G look at for a tower?

 

If I was them I'd think something directly opposite the Chiquita Building where the imperial gardens are now.  I'd think a new underground garage would be built where the park is now and the footprint of the new tower would be about 180x180 in the block's southwest corner.  I think overall the decision P&G made back in the early 80's to expand east toward Eggleston was in part because they knew they could get at all that cheap parking under and around I-71.  But I could be completely wrong and they'd build the new tower where the children's daycare was just built. 

 

I just have to imagine that for recruiting purposes alone bringing people into town those people are going expect P&G to be prominent in the skyline and instead their headquarters is kind of hidden.  I was in that cafe in the old P&G building one day 2-3 years ago when QCS was going up, and it was a bit funny realizing how much that thing was going to overwhelm P&G.

 

I think the only reason P&G would build a new tower is if they had a space issue. Recruiting is not an issue whatsoever, all you have to do is say P&G and you can get top talent applying for openings (they are the 800lb gorilla in just about any room, no need for a fancy tower) . They have one of the most difficult interview processes that any new recruits will face.

^ they would rent if they need more space (which they might). Office rates are so low downtown right now and vacancy is decently high.  They aren't about to spend that kind of money considering they are struggling to retain market share & wall street is pounding them to cut costs.

I doubt they need the space... I see empty desks throughout my area in the Central Building. ...Unless they are planning on consolidating everyone downtown? idk. Also, they recently renovated all of the Central Building and have been doing so in the Tower Buildings, so that would indicate they don't plan on replacing any of the buildings.

Best part of Barrett's Q&A is his assessment of The Banks. Couldn't agree more with it. I know they put in a very strong bid package that wouldn't have required all of the financing contingencies that the other developers included. In addition, they weren't going to sacrifice development quality for a better return on equity - call it a hometown discount or good corporate citizen move. Instead we got an architecturally inferior development that contains zero character.

 

It still infuriates me that they weren't granted the project but local politics came into play with his being a very active republican.

Did W&S ever release any info or rendering of what they would have done with the banks?

 

itd be interesting to see what they had in mind

It still infuriates me that they weren't granted the project but local politics came into play with his being a very active republican.

 

Woa Woa Woa. Let's not take things over the top. The Banks was hijacked by the county which has always had republican leanings. Also, Towne properties & Neyer get more deals than any other developers and they are

Both owned/run by republicans.  Local government gives plenty of great deals to republicans so this "political" thing was probably more about his brash personality than about him being a conservative.

 

I'm not saying Carter Dawson has a quality product, they don't, but they didn't get it because of some republican/democrat bias. 

What developments within city limits have Neyer and Towne won via a RFP process? Yes, developers get alot of economic tax incentives with their projects but that's not comparable to being awarded a development project.

 

Also remember that the project was awarded by the City of Cincinnati and Hamilton County, not just the latter, since both have a financial interest in the project.

Actually, since you did point out it was through an open RFP process, it makes it more obvious that it wasn't just a political ploy to keep them out, but due to competition. 

 

The only reason I said what I said, which is entirely true, is that you implied because he was a republican, he didn't get it.  I was saying Cincinnati gives lots and lots of incentives and often partners with both of those republican owned companies so there isn't an inherently anti-republican bias in who the City partners with on development projects.  The City gave a massive TIF abatement to QCS- it wouldn't have been built without that, W&S had said that. It was a good partnership and his political affiliation didn't come into it.

>What site would P&G look at for a tower?

 

If I was them I'd think something directly opposite the Chiquita Building where the imperial gardens are now.  I'd think a new underground garage would be built where the park is now and the footprint of the new tower would be about 180x180 in the block's southwest corner.  I think overall the decision P&G made back in the early 80's to expand east toward Eggleston was in part because they knew they could get at all that cheap parking under and around I-71.  But I could be completely wrong and they'd build the new tower where the children's daycare was just built. 

 

I just have to imagine that for recruiting purposes alone bringing people into town those people are going expect P&G to be prominent in the skyline and instead their headquarters is kind of hidden.  I was in that cafe in the old P&G building one day 2-3 years ago when QCS was going up, and it was a bit funny realizing how much that thing was going to overwhelm P&G. 

 

 

 

Didn't P&G close their Symmes Township campus and relocate all of those workers downtown? I thought the reasoning was that they had enough space downtown since employees get to work from home much of the time. Seems unlikely that they'd close that campus and then realize they're out of space downtown and need to build a new building.

Wasn't sure where else to stick this....

 

Tunnel work would upgrade Lytle Park

Enquirer exclusive: Renovation underneath could boost plans for development around park

12:10 AM, Aug. 9, 2012 

Written by Jason Williams

 

 

A $34 million renovation to Lytle Tunnel could jump-start the overhaul of a historic park and spur the development of new restaurants, apartments and condominiums in eastern Downtown.

 

“This whole thing could become a city unto itself,” said Western & Southern chief executive officer John Barrett. W&S owns several properties around the park.

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120808/BIZ/308100003&Ref=AR

 

It would be nice if they could reconfigure the tunnels in such a way that FWW could be sunk down underneath Broadway. I remember reading that the current configuration is a result of trying to reuse the existing tunnels for the FWW rebuild.

I don't know if it's wide enough, but I've mentally toyed around with the idea of repurposing the middle tunnel (which carries the Third Street exit from soubtound 71) for light rail, to connect the Riverfront Transit Center to Eggleston Avenue, the I-71 corridor, the Central Parkway subway, and possibly a Mt. Auburn tunnel.

I'm not sure if any of that is technically possible without rebuilding I-71's approach and of course the 1970s apartments over the tunnel.  Also there is the sunk cost of the work over Broadway, which is probably $50 million worth of ramps.

 

I'll send an email to John Dietrich, who was the city's engineer at the time. 

I've always wondered if I-71 through Lytle Park was done on purpose to ruin that part of downtown and shrink the overall size of the contiguous downtown, thereby raising the value per block.  It's always seemed to me that they could have built the I-71/FWW interchange over and above Eggleston.

Doesn't Eggleston sit over a buried creek? I recall that the maps of Bucktown in the 1850s had a creek there that was also home to the earliest pork processing plants.

No the creek didn't become the canal.  The creek was buried in a culvert and that whole area was lifted with fill to become level with the canal as it descended from the turnaround pool to the river.  Later, when the canal was filled, the State of Ohio permitted Cincinnati to lease the canal to a railroad, but the state Supreme Court ruled some condition invalid, and Eggleston Ave. reverted to state ownership.  This meant the railroad did not have to follow Cincinnati's railroad ordinances, and frequently left trains parked the entire length of Eggleston, and obvious obstruction to foot and streetcar traffic.  This contributed to Mt. Adams remaining low rent and the calls to replace the canal elsewhere with a subway tunnel so that the same situation would not repeat itself.   

City OKs Anna Louise zoning application

Western & Southern will continue efforts to acquire inn

 

DOWNTOWN — In its ongoing battle against insurance giant Western & Southern Financial Group, the Anna Louise Inn has scored another victory.

 

The city’s Historic Conservation Board on Monday granted a conditional use zoning application for Cincinnati Union Bethel, the nonprofit that operates Anna Louise. Union Bethel needs the designation to renovate the inn into 85 efficiency apartments and to not exceed a limit of 25 women in its Off the Streets recovery program for prostitutes.

 

“This ruling puts to rest whether we are zoned properly or not, and we may now proceed with our planned renovations,” said Stephen MacConnell, Union Bethel’s president and chief executive.

 

Cont

I can't decide how I feel about the Anna Louise Inn issue.  On one hand, you would love to see some market rate housing and some added commercial to anchor the eastern edge of downtown.  The Lytle Park area is perfectly set up to function like a mini urban village, given its configuration around the park, unique architecture, Taft Museum, existing residential- so obviously a high rise condo building makes sense.  At the same time, it's a shame that the Anna Louise Inn would have to go.  It's been there forever, and I do think there is enough room in downtown (at this point) for everyone. 

ALI was more than willing to sell to W&S as recently as 2009 for $3 million, but W&S held out thinking it held all the cards and could drive the price lower.

 

This whole thing could have been avoided rather easily. I wish W&S would concentrate on some other nearby tracts of land that are ripe for development, especially the site of their spinning-clock garage. A new tower there has long been discussed.

 

The ALI building just doesn't seem that significant to W&S in the larger picture to be going through all this nonsense and creating a negative vibe in the community.

Western & Southern sees hotel, Anna Louise Inn only desperation

11:14 PM, Sep. 20, 2012

Written by Jason Williams

 

In perhaps a final effort to persuade its longtime neighbor to do business elsewhere, Western & Southern Financial Group has commissioned a study that shows converting the Anna Louise Inn into a hotel would pump $11.8 million a year into the local economy.

 

But the hotel plan has one big problem: Western & Southern doesn’t own the Anna Louise Inn. It’s owned by Cincinnati Union Bethel and provides affordable housing for low-income women.

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120920/BIZ/309210038&Ref=AR

That one building is really going to stop W&S from building upon the other pieces of property it owns by Lytle?

Crucify me if you will, but even though W&S top-tier management doesn't give a s**t about the women involved, its overall business objective for both itself and Cincinnati is a sound one.  Please be reminded that the original purpose of ALI was to shelter single, working women...was it not?  (and NOT former prostitutes, recovering alcoholics, nor the mentally afflicted)  I can't help but think  that, if the founders of ALI could be witness to how the vision for their building has been changed, they, too, would side with W&S in moving the present clientele elsewhere--it's just good business.

Crucify me if you will, but even though W&S top-tier management doesn't give a s**t about the women involved, its overall business objective for both itself and Cincinnati is a sound one.  Please be reminded that the original purpose of ALI was to shelter single, working women...was it not?  (and NOT former prostitutes, recovering alcoholics, nor the mentally afflicted)  I can't help but think  that, if the founders of ALI could be witness to how the vision for their building has been changed, they, too, would side with W&S in moving the present clientele elsewhere--it's just good business.

 

W&S is going to have to up their offer from $3 million. I wonder how high they'd have to go to get the shelter to pay attention?

 

I like W&S's enthusiasm and passion for downtown, which is exactly what we need. 3CDC can't do it all themselves.

^Union Bethel will never sell to W&S after the treatment they have received. And I do not blame them.

^They should do what's best to serve their mission, not hold onto a property just to spite W&S.  I have no idea how much that property is worth, or how much money would make an unnecessary move worthwhile, but they should be open to moving for the right offer.  That building is not intrinsic to their mission, so if they get an offer that allows them to better serve the people that depend on them, they should consider it.

Have any of you even been to ALI?! Half of you don't even know what it is.

 

It's apartments. 95% of residents pay rent. Only 5%, in the "off the streets" program are in a shelter style living, and they can only stay or a set number of weeks (25 person cap).

 

Everyone else has their own room, bed, dresser, furniture, etc.  60% of residents are over 50. They are not trashy prostitutes. They're are low

Income older women. 90% of the residents have a job. ~60% don't have cars and walk to work at fast food restaurants on either side of the river.

 

It's a great institution that has been a major neighborhood supporter from years. They have letters of support from every non-W&S property owner around them & dozens of letters from residents in Park Place.  W&S supporrted them for years until they realized the Low income housing tax credits would mean the building had to stay low income (single person making under $50,000) for 30 years.

 

Also, we are adding 250 rooms in the Enquirer building, 140 at 21C, ~150 at the banks, ~200 at 7th & Syc and eventually another 150-250 at the Casino.  And renovating the Hyatt. It's not like we NEED another hotel (they are not considering condos for ALI).

And don't act like there isn't value and worth inherent to a location and building beyond its cash value..

^ Sounds like the Metropole, which few people outside of the residents had a problem with its low-income apartments going away for a luxury hotel. 3CDC worked hard to find better housing for each of those who were displaced.

 

If ALI could move into a bigger, better facility that would better serve its constituents, I don't understand what the problem would be. It's not like that location is imperative to its mission. If the situation is win/win (upgraded larger modern facilities for ALI, more women in need who could be served, major economic boost for the city that needs it, revitalization of an underused part of downtown), I'd be all for it.

 

Frankly, if this acrimony being built up toward W&S eventually forces them to scuttle all of their development plans for that part of downtown and put their time, money and efforts elsewhere, what a big-time loss that would be. Maybe Roxanne Qualls should think about that before she laughs at one of Cincinnati's most important corporations again.

^ Sounds like the Metropole, which few people outside of the residents had a problem with its low-income apartments going away for a luxury hotel. 3CDC worked hard to find better housing for each of those who were displaced.

 

The Metropole was a completely different situation.  The place had become a haven of drugs and prostitution due to an absentee landlord.  They lowered the criteria for incoming residents and failed to provide support and security at the location.  Other than the Josh Spring's of the world, most people were very happy with the conversion of the location to a hotel.  The Anna Louise Inn has been the exact opposite.  It has been a fantastic neighbor with almost no complaints.  The Downtown Residents Council (which supported the conversion of The Metropole to the 21c Hotel) voted to support Cincinnati Union Bethel with a 40-0 vote.  That is, forty downtown residents (including those that live directly across from the Anna Louise Inn) voted in support with not a single vote in support of W&S.  John Barrett is just upset because he was not able to strong arm this non-profit to line his pockets.  Don't forget John Barrett is completely anti-streetcar despite the economic study by UC saying how beneficial it will be to Cincinnati.  His own commissioned UC study though is flawless  :roll:.

^ Sounds like the Metropole, which few people outside of the residents had a problem with its low-income apartments going away for a luxury hotel. 3CDC worked hard to find better housing for each of those who were displaced.

 

If ALI could move into a bigger, better facility that would better serve its constituents, I don't understand what the problem would be. It's not like that location is imperative to its mission. If the situation is win/win (upgraded larger modern facilities for ALI, more women in need who could be served, major economic boost for the city that needs it, revitalization of an underused part of downtown), I'd be all for it.

 

Frankly, if this acrimony being built up toward W&S eventually forces them to scuttle all of their development plans for that part of downtown and put their time, money and efforts elsewhere, what a big-time loss that would be. Maybe Roxanne Qualls should think about that before she laughs at one of Cincinnati's most important corporations again.

 

good points but forgot one more thing. The additional tax revenue they city will receive, year after year which a portion of it will go towards helping even more people with needs. It's a win win for everyone. 

^ W&S owns several vacant parking lots & a 1960's garage. Those could all be developed before they need to go after ALI.

 

Also, the next person who makes this bullsh*t W&S talking point "better facility" argument, please walk off a bridge.

 

Has ANYONE heard of a new magical super building (that costs only $3 million) that ALI is going to build at a mystical location that ALI doesn't even own yet!?'

 

3CDC is spending $30 million ($10 million in city money) to build 3 new shelters. So, maybe they could build a building for $10 million. Why are they gonna struggle to find an extra $7 million when they have a building of their own, construction plans already drawn & permitted, grants, tax credits, etc. all lined up for their current building.

 

The metropole comparison is horrible btw.

^ W&S owns several vacant parking lots & a 1960's garage. Those could all be developed before they need to go after ALI.

 

Also, the next person who makes this bullsh*t W&S talking point "better facility" argument, please walk off a bridge.

 

Has ANYONE heard of a new magical super building (that costs only $3 million) that ALI is going to build at a mystical location that ALI doesn't even own yet!?'

 

3CDC is spending $30 million ($10 million in city money) to build 3 new shelters. So, maybe they could build a building for $10 million. Why are they gonna struggle to find an extra $7 million when they have a building of their own, construction plans already drawn & permitted, grants, tax credits, etc. all lined up for their current building.

 

The metropole comparison is horrible btw.

 

Nice sentiment, and very constructive. I'm sure whoever didn't originally see your side totally agrees with you now. :roll:

 

 

Indeed, W&S's John Barrett is the quintessential caricature of the arrogant and heartless business tycoon--so much so that he could easily be a cartoon character in "The New Yorker."  Nevertheless, his self-serving mission "to nab" ALI doesn't change the fact that ALI, itself, is a venerable but outdated institution that's currently holding vital CBD development in check, all because of a mission statement that no longer rings true.  ALI simply isn't what it was a century before--therefore it has to go.

^ Please explain how ALI is an outdated institution? Once we have no more prime property downtown being used as surface lots.  Once buildings like the Barrett & Co building are no longer sitting entirely empty with the power turned off.  Once all Class C office space is converted to residential, then we can make the argument that this is incredibly valuable land that should be repurposed. 

 

How many people on here who want the ALI to leave have actually visited the building? People are making this out to be the Drop Inn shelter.  ALI is apartments. you pay rent. you have a lease. yes, 25 of the 140 women who live there are in a program called "off the streets" and are leaving prostitution, but everyone else are working women.  If I work 40 hours at minimum wage a week at the Wendy's on 4th street (taking home about $950 a month) and am a single woman in her 50's I'd be fortunate enough to have an option as great as the Anna Louise Inn.

 

 

^ Please explain how ALI is an outdated institution? Once we have no more prime property downtown being used as surface lots.  Once buildings like the Barrett & Co building are no longer sitting entirely empty with the power turned off.  Once all Class C office space is converted to residential, then we can make the argument that this is incredibly valuable land that should be repurposed. 

 

How many people on here who want the ALI to leave have actually visited the building? People are making this out to be the Drop Inn shelter.  ALI is apartments. you pay rent. you have a lease. yes, 25 of the 140 women who live there are in a program called "off the streets" and are leaving prostitution, but everyone else are working women.  If I work 40 hours at minimum wage a week at the Wendy's on 4th street (taking home about $950 a month) and am a single woman in her 50's I'd be fortunate enough to have an option as great as the Anna Louise Inn.

 

 

 

^^^This +1

 

I for one am glad subocincy does not get to decide what is "outdated" and "has to go." Other posters have been dancing around saying it as explicitly, but this seems to be the fundamental construct of WS supporters/ALI opposers.

 

If the mission of Anna Louise Inn is community and affordable housing I am not sure how that is outdated.

 

"Today, approximately 250 single women live at the Inn each year.  In addition to affordable housing, the Anna Louise Inn provides a sense of community, and emergency & referral services for women who are just trying to live independently and within their means."

This is the mission of the inn as summarized on the Cincinnati Union Bethel website.  Clicking on the summary gets you here http://www.cinunionbethel.org/index.php/how-we-help/anna-louise-innhousing  it is worth a look.

 

subocincy, is the ALI outdated because they no longer follow their first mission statement?

 

If so, consider this. The March of Dimes was originally created to find a cure for polio. When the cure was discovered and polio was eliminated, they changed their mission to help stop birth defects. Should the March of Dimes disband since they no longer follow their original mission? Clearly they are outdated.

 

If not, I'm confused what you mean by the ALI being outdated.

Agreed with the last three posts. There is no shortage of available real estate for another hotel in Downtown Cincinnati. None at all.

 

Furthermore, I would be interested to know how much permanent supportive housing remains downtown. I have heard it suggested that the renovated Dennison Hotel and ALI will be all that remains, so there is certainly no glut of such housing.

As several posters have just pointed out, my referring to ALI as "outdated" was incorrect--nor is ALI's present mission "outdated."  However, practically speaking, this organization occupies a valuable piece of property that begs to become a part of a larger whole.  Yes, a posh piece of a larger gentile and classy sector of the CBD which will attract the best of the best.  (Need I explain why this is so important to business in Cincinnati?) 

Cincinnati's number one goal right now should be one thing, increasing the tax base. By bringing in more jobs and residents. Without a tax base there is nothing.

Cincinnati's number one goal right now should be one thing, increasing the tax base. By bringing in more jobs and residents. Without a tax base there is nothing.

 

Sure.  And if the ALI  were the only place available to develop downtown, that'd be a potent argument for redeveloping it.  :-P

 

The ALI have been good neighbors and there's plenty of other places to redevelop downtown.  W&S monomaniacally focusing on ALI makes them come off as crazy bullies - to me, at least.

W&S has lost this battle. They need to move on. Much like COAST and their streetcar opposition.

Another article on the subject......

 

Study: Anna Louise hotel conversion could have $400M impact

Business Courier by Lucy May, Senior Staff Reporter/Associate Editor

Date: Monday, September 24, 2012, 1:00pm EDT

 

The proposed conversion of the Anna Louise Inn into a select-service hotel could have an economic impact of nearly $400 million over the next 30 years, according to a report prepared by the University of Cincinnati’s Economics Center for Education and Research.

 

Western & Southern Financial Group has been in a legal battle with Cincinnati Union Bethel, the owner of the inn that provides affordable housing to low-income women. Earlier this month, the city of Cincinnati’s Zoning Board of Appeals upheld the Historic Conservation Board’s approval of the Certificate of Appropriateness for the Anna Louise Inn, effectively ruling that the social services agency can be located there.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2012/09/24/study-anna-louise-hotel-conversion.html?page=all

 

 

I got to say didn't this same people say the streetcar would have a 2+billion dollar impact as well? This city is afraid of development or what??