I think that thought popped into a lot of our heads when reading that article. And it seems to follow the very general timeline they had mentioned in the past. The Anna Louise is all figured out, Lytle Park is going to have work done this summer in conjunction with tunnel work underneath (that is this summer, correct?) and it now seems like they're ready to start turning that part of Downtown into the luxury area they said they wanted it to be. I'll be excited to see where this goes.

I still hope that the huge parking lots right next to the old "Edge" project get something. 

It seems the plans are beginning to unfold for one, possibly two new towers?  Or am I reading into this too much?

 

http://urbn.cc/p466

I still hope that the huge parking lots right next to the old "Edge" project get something. 

 

I agree 100%  I've always hated those giant lots.  They're ugly and could house some pretty impressive buildings size-wise.

^  This business-news will renew heated conflict over Cincinnati's valuable SE CBD quadrant--ie, what surrounds Lytle Park.  Once again, the forces of "Good" (read in, Anna Louise Inn supporters plus historic preservationists) will combat the forces of "Evil" (read in, W&S led by their overlord, John Barrett) and blood will soon flow.  But, then again, why?

 

Cincinnati isn't destined to remain some "historical-museum" and its Lytle Park surroundings will benefit from a major "business-transfusion" as will occur if The Dark Lord and his W&S underlings win this fight. 

^ I reject your black & white notion, as I think development is good but so is preservation. That part of the city is extremely unique to the city and the Midwest as a whole. It has a very colonial feel, and taking down historic buildings is a terrible idea, as would be removing any green space. But if you want to put the Burj Khalifa where that parking garage is, by all means, go for it. Ideally there would be an attempt to make the base of the structure blend with the environment (while not mocking it w/ some faux-historic schlock).

From what I've heard, the proposed changes to the boundary is a solution the residents / business and property owners of the area are suggesting. They realize that W&S owns most of the buildings in the district, they have significant power over many of the various city boards, commissions, and legislative bodies, and they have leverage in possibly leaving the area and taking high paying jobs away from the city. If it's all or nothing, W&S will likely win the battle.

 

If the preservationists don't come up with a compromise that allows W&S to tear down some buildings and build a new headquarters, they could possibly lose the historic designation of the whole area and put it in danger. If the other players in the neighborhood can get a permanent historic designation in place for the remaining properties with the blessing of W&S it will pass easily through the city. If W&S doesn't agree, the whole thing likely falls apart.

 

The current designation expires this year because it was the first one enacted in Cincinnati and was meant as a test to the idea. I don't believe any other historic districts/designations have a sunset clause in them.

 

I think this is a pretty good compromise that allows progress to happen while keeping most of the district in tact.

This seems like a really good thing with the exception of the Woodford building potentially being in danger. I would really hope that spot isn't where future demolition would occur. That would be a huge loss for the neighborhood.

 

That being said it's exciting to think that we could potentially be seeing something in the near future happening on some of these spots.

Woodford is my concern too. The Arch Street properties are very nice, but they are isolated in their current state.

Yeah, the Arch Street buildings are nice and it would be great if they were moved to some empty lots somewhere but them being removed from the area will go basically unnoticed. The Woodford on the other hand is a gorgeous building. Hopefully a full demolition isn't what's planned (if anything even is yet that is) but rather modifications that would go against current historic district guidelines. Such as selective demolition of portions of the building and integrated new construction. I'll be interested to see what happens though.

From Summit Street's recent thread:

 

I think we should be worried that Western-Southern is looking to poach tenants from elsewhere in downtown.  Here again we see some rationale for Barrett's hatred of the streetcar: instead of the most active part of downtown drifting into the zone he controls, he will be fighting for public dollars and the leases of tenants who currently occupy buildings next to the streetcar.  In his dream world W-S stockholders destroy the rest of DT Cincinnati. 

way to be the conspiracy theorist, Jake. It is one thing for him to be against the streetcar but at the same time it still has benefits to them attracting people from out of town to locate here. Lytle Park is only about a 2 block walk from Main Street. Not something that would deter a streetcar rider from OTR from doing and walking to work.

 

I think the bigger impetus for the expansion is that W&S has a number of subsidiaries based in other cities that would likely be relocated here in the next few years. They did this about 4-5 years ago where they brought a subsidiary from Louisville and somewhere in Indiana to Cincinnati to be based out of 303 Broadway. I bet there is more of that to come if they are able to develop this area.

^  I couldn't agree with you more, Jake.  As much as I dream of structures "Big and Tall" arising here in this SE sector of the CBD, I also fear what John Barrett has in mind, as both he and his political/business cohorts poach whatever they can from elsewhere in downtown and OTR to complete their own manic, past-tense visions of Cincinnati.  (As you said,  Darth Vador will easily prey upon what is nearby and readily available than what is farther away and less obtainable--in other words, they'll poach what they can from downtown,  OTR and Uptown rather than from Nashville, Charlotte and beyond.)

I would hardly say they did any poaching from OTR and other parts of Uptown and such. That is a fallacy that stems from people upset with the whole Anna Louise Inn. Look at QCSquare and 303 Broadway's tenants - Great American was the main tenant and came from another part of downtown (while that could be considered "poaching," the building would not have been built without it). The other key tenants in the building are law firms who moved from one Class A office to another downtown. None of those companies would consider going to OTR for business. OTR and uptown cater to creative companies and emerging companies. QCS is for the established financial center companies. At 303 broadway, the same thing. Most of the companies there are W&S subsidiaries and some of them were relocated here from out of town.  Key Bank moved there from the suburbs.

 

ALso, they are always looking for an out of town tenant to poach and bring here. International Paper was close to relocating their HQ here a number of years ago but the city just missed out. There are discussions going on all the time with these businesses. By having a top notch facility, this will allow the city to compete for those companies. I just don't see why you seem to feel Barrett is this nefarious creature that does not have good intentions. Yes we all have some self interest in the matter but you better believe that he recognizes that what is going on in OTR is good for his company

I think you guys grossly over estimate John Barrett's interest in the streetcar.  While he may not be 100% supportive of it, he has a multi-billion dollar company to run and I bet the streetcar is nothing but an afterthought.  All the real estate holdings around Queen City Square are a drop in the bucket on their balance sheet.  While he doesn't make dumb investments and wants them to succeed, he does love Cincinnati and does a lot for the City.  It would be nice if all the tenants for his new developments came from outside downtown or the region, but so what if they come from elsewhere downtown, that is the nature of the game.  There are tenants constantly looking for newer and better space, their moves allow other tenants to expand or move up into older Class A buildings from B and C buildings and open up blocks of space for other companies looking for large blocks to consider downtown.  The worse thing would be a market with no new product and no expansion whatsoever. 

 

Also, W/S has no shareholders, it is a private company.

Western & Southern clears first step to reshape Lytle Park district

 

Western & Southern Financial Group’s plans to reshape the Lytle Park Historic District moved forward Friday morning, as the Cincinnati Planning Commission approved a change to the district’s boundaries.

 

The step brings Western & Southern closer to being able to demolish and redevelop properties around Lytle Park for a possible expansion of its headquarters.

 

“We’re running out of space, we’re tight,” Mario San Marco, president of Western & Southern’s real estate arm Eagle Realty Group, told me after the meeting. “We know that we have to begin thinking and planning for more space.”

 

Cont

I don't see any point in fighting WS on this. If Cincy wins the Republican Convention then Barrett will be needed to raise the money that the RNC wants. Heck, any decisions on things WS wants until the convention city is announced are all going to go how JB wants.

 

Oh, and the Business Courior reported that Amy Murray included the University Club now. Did I read that right?

way to be the conspiracy theorist, Jake. It is one thing for him to be against the streetcar but at the same time it still has benefits to them attracting people from out of town to locate here. Lytle Park is only about a 2 block walk from Main Street. Not something that would deter a streetcar rider from OTR from doing and walking to work.

 

I think the bigger impetus for the expansion is that W&S has a number of subsidiaries based in other cities that would likely be relocated here in the next few years. They did this about 4-5 years ago where they brought a subsidiary from Louisville and somewhere in Indiana to Cincinnati to be based out of 303 Broadway. I bet there is more of that to come if they are able to develop this area.

Ironically enough, as I was typing my response to Jake, you posted your response above--and of equal merit.  Nobody can know for sure (other than John Barrett and his powerful associates) what W&S actually envisions for this, their avowed "SE Quadrant" of the CBD.  But, like you mentioned, perhaps W&S's vision of this holy turf may not prove to be all that bad--and thus better than that of ALI and its former, wasted prostitutes. 

Also, W/S has no shareholders, it is a private company.

 

Private companies have shareholders. However, those shares are not publicly traded.

Also, W/S has no shareholders, it is a private company.

 

Private companies have shareholders. However, those shares are not publicly traded.

 

When you are an insurance company, you have huge advantages in the local real estate game and that's not limited to having cash and access to the cheapest debt available.  Beyond that you have salaried lawyers and often have family members (in the case of a privately held company) sitting on the boards of the universities, hospitals, planning commissions, etc.  You're also playing a very long game.  A 50-year expiration for historic preservation is a blink for a blue blood family.  I'm not sure who actually owns Western-Southern shares -- that info is not available online.  But even P&G, a publicly traded company, still has some heirs who periodically interfere with public affairs.     

 

 

 

 

 

Jake - what exactly is your point here? That insurance companies have the ability to outlast a historic district and then lobby to change the zoning and therefore they must be up to no good? I just don't follow where you are going here? Please elaborate.

The three buildings in the photo above will be torn down.  Also, Amy Murray had the Univserity Club REMOVED from the historic district, not added.

The three buildings in the photo above will be torn down.  Also, Amy Murray had the Univserity Club REMOVED from the historic district, not added.

 

How do you know those will be turn down? That'd be a shame. I've always hoped they would build a tower atop their historic building, a la the Hearst Tower in NYC. I remember there was a UC thesis project that was a tower like that (maybe it was a poster on Urban Ohio?)

^ I was hoping for something like this as well.  The building with the columns would look really cool with a Hearst Tower style building on top of it! Of all the buildings to go in the Lytle Park area, these are the ones I'd be the least heartbroken over losing.

The woodford building has Champlin Architects in it I believe, I would be curious if they get any say in the matter. Would be interesting to hear what their plans for w&s expansion would be.

The Hearst Tower is somewhat unique in that it was constructed on top of a building that was originally designed to support the load of a tower.  The tower phase was scrapped, however, due to the Great Depression, and the Hearst Tower was the revival of that concept (70 or 80 years later).  It would be awesome if a tower could be added to one of those 3 buildings, but unfortunately that is impossible as they would need to have been originally designed to support additional floors.

^ It's not impossible.  10 South LaSalle in Chicago was gutted and only the exterior was used for the base of the new building.  The result on the outside is basically the same, but either approach is questionable from an architectural and preservation standpoint.

I thought I head heard a rumor that the W&S building was also designed for a tower that never got built, but I cannot find any actual source for that. I will check some books later, I may have read it in the Bicentennial Guide or one of those other Cincinnati books.

 

The Macy's/Fountain Place building was also designed to have a tower atop it eventually, but that doesn't have the potential for the interesting new/old juxtaposition that the Hearst has.

Another downtown building that was built to have more floors with Cincinnati Bell's Telephone Building on 7th Street. If that ever came to pass, it could really be beautiful to juxtapose the art deco against something more modern

 

Western & Southern speaks up about plans for Lytle Park

Tom Demeropolis Reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

 

The new proposed boundaries for the Lytle Park Historic District would help Western & Southern Financial Group expand its offices, according to a statement released by the financial services giant.

 

“Western & Southern’s growth, which benefits the city and the region, requires more office space for its associates. The changes approved by the Cincinnati Planning Commission will support ongoing planning regarding possible solutions for new office space for the company,” Western & Southern wrote in the statement.

 

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/morning_call/2014/05/western-southern-speaks-up-about-plans-for-lytle.html

^-History be damned.

How tall are we expecting this new building to be?  Or is it too early to guess?

Who owns the parking lots that flank that little Great American building at Vine, Walnut and FWW? Why hasn't that ever been developed as a tower?

^That's Dixie Terminal, is it not?

I thought I head heard a rumor that the W&S building was also designed for a tower that never got built, but I cannot find any actual source for that. I will check some books later, I may have read it in the Bicentennial Guide or one of those other Cincinnati books.

 

The Macy's/Fountain Place building was also designed to have a tower atop it eventually, but that doesn't have the potential for the interesting new/old juxtaposition that the Hearst has.

 

Not a rumor.  I went to a seminar and Patrick Snadon had a photo of the proposed tower for W&S.  Only time I ever saw an image.

How long ago?

Who owns the parking lots that flank that little Great American building at Vine, Walnut and FWW? Why hasn't that ever been developed as a tower?

 

AFG owns the entire block: http://buildingmanagementco.com/siteplan.html

Can some one fill me in on what the current thinking on a new W&S building is?  Are they likely to build a new office building?  When?  Where?  How big? 

 

Thanks

Lytle Park work is catalyst for new development

 

Lytle Park is 12 months away from starting the biggest overhaul in its 107-year history, a transformation that eventually could reshape southeast Downtown into a thriving new financial district.

 

Planners are laying the groundwork now for a complex set of events designed to make it all happen. Just as a remade Washington Park transformed Over-the-Rhine around Music Hall, a revamped Lytle Park could spark new life at the other end of town.

 

By next spring, the Ohio Department of Transportation will start installing new ventilation, lighting and tiles inside the I-71 tunnel, which runs underneath Lytle Park.

 

Cont

What the hell? Did W&S write that piece or did the paper? Little Park is just a little corner of the CBD, and the CBD is not big enough to have its own "districts" nor does this area need to be "revitalized." It's just the f***ing CBD. Sure, build another tower or two. The only thing that will transform are the skyline and W&S's ego.

I had no idea that Lytle Park needed to have redevelopment sparked. I think the city should give WS some grants to fix up some of those dilapidated buildings. And that hideous park with those horrible regular people walking around, when can we fix that and install some gates?

The three buildings in the photo above will be torn down.  Also, Amy Murray had the Univserity Club REMOVED from the historic district, not added.

Sorry, that's what I meant, I just put it inarticulately. She added it to the list of buildings removed. Couldn't be clearer if I tried.

Looks like things are moving along.

http://m.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/06/16/new-lytle-park-historic-district-boundaries.html

any word on this project?

This project won't get traction until they finish the tunnel mods and the park redesign is finished.

they should keep the highway in tunnels until it reaches fww and run 2nd and third farther up with another cap to go between thus extending lytle into the future capped area of fww.  probably too expensive but just my two cents.

I think we all want something of that nature to happen. It seems so odd to be in a tunnel, rise out of the tunnel, only to immediately drop back well below grade. It's not going to happen though unfortunately. If that turn was put into a tunnel the Lytle Park area, riverfront by The Banks, and riverfront by the Purple People Bridge would all feel so much more cohesive.

FWW currently bumps up over Broadway because planners wanted to reuse the existing Lytle tunnels. Ideally we would've sunk the entire length of FWW, but it would've added a huge cost to the project. Maybe in 60-100 years when the tunnels need to be completely replaced, we can do it right.

I wish I would win mega millions when its at like 600 million so I could just give the city/county money with a contract agreement for them to spend it on what i say lol. but I'd probably just start my own city of urban enthusiasts in a corn field somewhere and we would surpass cincy in a couple decades anyway lol