April 17, 20232 yr Michelle Jarboe quotes a consultants report saying downtown residences are back to 95% occupancy. She quotes other stuff about growth, but the current occupancy rate is certainly good news. https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/downtown-cleveland-housing-has-room-grow-report-finds Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
May 12, 20232 yr Author The Standard hits the market By Ken Prendergast / May 12, 2023 Not all high-rise office and other commercial buildings in downtown Cleveland convert well to residential uses. And then there’s the historic Standard Building, 99 W. St. Clair Ave., which seemed a natural to become home to hundreds of people in the heart of the city. And now the timing is right for the company which bought and redeveloped The Standard to offer it for sale. https://neo-trans.blog/2023/05/12/the-standard-hits-the-market/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 21, 20232 yr https://www.wkyc.com/article/money/economy/mission-possible/mission-possible-the-future-of-downtown-cleveland-is-strong/95-af8c6d47-eb12-4e30-81ec-87e92257bbfb
June 29, 20231 yr Interesting read from Cleveland Magazine on Cleveland's ongoing recovery/transition from COVID, covering downtown residents, office workers, and small business owners. Can Post-Pandemic Cleveland Get Its Foot Traffic Back on Track? Cassie Tomaselli https://clevelandmagazine.com/in-the-cle/articles/can-post-pandemic-cleveland-get-its-foot-traffic-back-on-track
June 29, 20231 yr 6 minutes ago, urb-a-saurus said: ^ "Residences at the Guardian?" Which project is that? The condos being built out on the upper floors of the former Guardian/ National City bank building on Euclid. Where the Holiday Inn and Marble Rooms etc is My hovercraft is full of eels
September 22, 20231 yr FWIW I've heard that the new condos in the old Holiday Inn building are selling very well, for above-market prices. That's encouraging if any developers are considering going for sale versus rental.
September 22, 20231 yr 5 hours ago, YABO713 said: FWIW I've heard that the new condos in the old Holiday Inn building are selling very well, for above-market prices. That's encouraging if any developers are considering going for sale versus rental. Last I heard there was one left and that was back in July.
September 22, 20231 yr 3 minutes ago, stpats44113 said: Last I heard there was one left and that was back in July. How many total for sale units are there?
September 22, 20231 yr 11 minutes ago, simplythis said: How many total for sale units are there? When we took a tour, I think they said there were 15. My hovercraft is full of eels
December 8, 20231 yr https://static1.squarespace.com/static/6307e2bf47190a1ab621acc2/t/65673d802be1cd0cd6763612/1701264768460/PRICE+LIST+The+Guardian+11-27-2023.pdf Good news. Almost all the condos are sold and I don’t believe they are all fully finished yet. Let’s get more condos going!
December 19, 20231 yr I wasn't sure where to put this but an awesome feature in the Washington Post today on downtown Cleveland's reinvention of downtown as a place to live https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/interactive/2023/cleveland-downtown-empty-offices-transform/?itid=hp_opinions_p003_f001&fbclid=IwAR08tbvmsj3FQvQOMYhJj9cWiQoxXju2G7d2Jkxe6Fqp_EsuL0RfA2xg3ZA
December 19, 20231 yr Minus pictures. https://web.archive.org/web/20231219134452/https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/interactive/2023/cleveland-downtown-empty-offices-transform/?itid=mr_3
December 19, 20231 yr Nice excerpt: "If there is one mistake Cleveland has made, it is still catering to vehicles in Public Square. A bus lane still cuts the square into two parts. The road is unpopular with city residents and should be removed."
December 19, 20231 yr 1 hour ago, coneflower said: I wasn't sure where to put this but an awesome feature in the Washington Post today on downtown Cleveland's reinvention of downtown as a place to live https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/interactive/2023/cleveland-downtown-empty-offices-transform/?itid=hp_opinions_p003_f001&fbclid=IwAR08tbvmsj3FQvQOMYhJj9cWiQoxXju2G7d2Jkxe6Fqp_EsuL0RfA2xg3ZA Wow! It's so nice to see such a glowing, positive discussion about Cleveland in the national press! And I think I agreed with just about everything in the article. More of this please! (Both positive mentions of Cleveland, and residents downtown).
December 19, 20231 yr An interesting article and worth a read for other cities, but like a lot of national articles it gets a few bits wrong. Especially generalizations like the above. ^^. And this: Quote By the late 20th century, high-rise office towers took over. The city put two big roads through Public Square that chopped the park into four tiny quadrants. The overarching goal was to make it easier for workers to commute from the suburbs. It typified what so many American downtowns became in the past 40 years: functional but sterile. Public Square was separated long before cars were the dominant mode of transport.
December 19, 20231 yr 14 minutes ago, Ethan said: Wow! It's so nice to see such a glowing, positive discussion about Cleveland in the national press! And I think I agreed with just about everything in the article. More of this please! (Both positive mentions of Cleveland, and residents downtown). It is a very good article because Cleveland is a leader by transitioning office space and making downtown more of a neighborhood. Very ncie.
January 11, 20241 yr https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/public-square-continues-to-blossom-into-a-thriving-residential-space-sparks-entrepreneurial-spirit
January 11, 20241 yr "Coyne said his three big recommendations for redeveloping dying downtowns are inclusivity, programming, and having a business plan." Programming and business plans are no-brainers, but what the hell does "inclusivity" mean in the context of improving downtowns?
January 11, 20241 yr 1 hour ago, TBideon said: "Coyne said his three big recommendations for redeveloping dying downtowns are inclusivity, programming, and having a business plan." Programming and business plans are no-brainers, but what the hell does "inclusivity" mean in the context of improving downtowns? Yeah he feels he has to say that. It's like every issue, item or candidate in Shaker having to include the word "equity" in front of everything, even if it doesn't seem to apply or fit. Edited January 11, 20241 yr by willyboy
January 11, 20241 yr 34 minutes ago, willyboy said: Yeah he feels he has to say that. It's like every issue, item or candidate in Shaker having to include the word "equity" in front of everything, even if it doesn't seem to apply or fit. Isn't he just saying that you have to have housing for your citizens at all income levels (i.e., we can't just build super luxurious apartments that only a few can afford"? A thriving downtown is only bustling if all of it's residents can afford to live there.
January 11, 20241 yr 2 hours ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said: Isn't he just saying that you have to have housing for your citizens at all income levels (i.e., we can't just build super luxurious apartments that only a few can afford"? A thriving downtown is only bustling if all of it's residents can afford to live there. Agree, and will posit that he was speaking in a wider sense, beyond just housing. Downtown CLE isn't anywhere near commercially diverse enough.
January 12, 20241 yr On 1/11/2024 at 3:37 PM, Chazz Michael Michaels said: Isn't he just saying that you have to have housing for your citizens at all income levels (i.e., we can't just build super luxurious apartments that only a few can afford"? A thriving downtown is only bustling if all of it's residents can afford to live there. True. It kind of does apply here.
May 17, 20241 yr This New York Times article has Cleveland as #5 in converting Offices into Appartments https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/16/realestate/office-hotel-residential-conversions.html
May 17, 20241 yr 7 minutes ago, Balkmusic said: This New York Times article has Cleveland as #5 in converting Offices into Appartments https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/16/realestate/office-hotel-residential-conversions.html Will be interesting to see the landslide of conversion units in Columbus in the next 24 months. Continental Center - 400 units Chase Tower - 300 units PNC Tower - 105 units Roughly 805 units in total just with those 3 conversions.
September 12, 2024Sep 12 So looking at the most recent 2024 data from the Center for Community solutions puts the downtown population at around 13,000. The Downtown Cleveland Market Study Report prepared for Downtown Cleveland Alliance says around 19,000 as of 2020. And the Downtown Cleveland Economic Development Report website says 21,000 as of 2023. So what gives? Why so much variance? Which to believe?
September 12, 2024Sep 12 15 minutes ago, Rustbelter said: So looking at the most recent 2024 data from the Center for Community solutions puts the downtown population at around 13,000. The Downtown Cleveland Market Study Report prepared for Downtown Cleveland Alliance says around 19,000 as of 2020. And the Downtown Cleveland Economic Development Report website says 21,000 as of 2023. So what gives? Why so much variance? Which to believe? Well it seems two of them are pretty consistent. 2,000 in population growth from 2020 to 2023 seems possible, especially given the number of apartments that opened during those three years.
September 16, 2024Sep 16 On 9/12/2024 at 7:29 PM, Rustbelter said: So looking at the most recent 2024 data from the Center for Community solutions puts the downtown population at around 13,000. The Downtown Cleveland Market Study Report prepared for Downtown Cleveland Alliance says around 19,000 as of 2020. And the Downtown Cleveland Economic Development Report website says 21,000 as of 2023. So what gives? Why so much variance? Which to believe? Are they including the OHC/Tremont Population? Both sit at or around 8,000 people.
December 3, 2024Dec 3 I would personally put it just above 18k. I know this conversation kind of died, but using realistic areas (unlike cities such as St Louis and Indianapolis) this number is very plausible. It will be interesting how Scranton Peninsula will be counted as its census tract is shared with North Tremont.
February 1Feb 1 nice to see a healthy market for these downtown townhouses — 🎉 Downtown Cleveland townhome asks $700K: House of the Week Published: Jan. 31, 2025 By Joey Morona, cleveland.com CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Nestled near the heart of Downtown Cleveland in the burgeoning Avenue neighborhood, 1431 Superior Ave. is a townhouse that would easily fetch over $1 million in a city like New York or Boston. Here? The three-bedroom, five-bathroom (three full) home spanning 2,500 square feet is listed at $699,900. “I love this section of downtown because it’s relatively quiet and yet highly walkable to all the best downtown has to offer,” says Allie Carr of Berkshire Hathaway HomeServices Professional Realty. more: https://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/2025/01/downtown-cleveland-townhome-asks-700k-house-of-the-week.html 1431 Superior Ave. in Cleveland was built in 2022 and has 3 bedrooms and 5 bathrooms (three full). The townhouse is listed for $699,900 by Allie Carr at Berkshire Hathaway HomeServices Professional Realty. (Photos by Shane Knee & Joey Rees ShanerShots.com)Shane Knee & Joey Rees | ShanerShots.com
February 23Feb 23 On 2/1/2025 at 12:40 PM, mrnyc said: nice to see a healthy market for these downtown townhouses — 🎉 Downtown Cleveland townhome asks $700K: House of the Week Published: Jan. 31, 2025 By Joey Morona, cleveland.com CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Nestled near the heart of Downtown Cleveland in the burgeoning Avenue neighborhood, 1431 Superior Ave. is a townhouse that would easily fetch over $1 million in a city like New York or Boston. Here? The three-bedroom, five-bathroom (three full) home spanning 2,500 square feet is listed at $699,900. “I love this section of downtown because it’s relatively quiet and yet highly walkable to all the best downtown has to offer,” says Allie Carr of Berkshire Hathaway HomeServices Professional Realty. more: https://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/2025/01/downtown-cleveland-townhome-asks-700k-house-of-the-week.html 1431 Superior Ave. in Cleveland was built in 2022 and has 3 bedrooms and 5 bathrooms (three full). The townhouse is listed for $699,900 by Allie Carr at Berkshire Hathaway HomeServices Professional Realty. (Photos by Shane Knee & Joey Rees ShanerShots.com)Shane Knee & Joey Rees | ShanerShots.com Good sign for downtown home ownership - looks like it sold rather quickly at 675,000 (list 699.900 per PD story). https://www.alliecarr.com/listings/1431superior
February 23Feb 23 Woof. People make some good money. I must be doing something wrong. And someone should tell Joey a home like that would cost $4-$6 million in New York, $2-$3 million in Boston. Edited February 23Feb 23 by TBideon
May 2May 2 2 hours ago, Clefan98 said:YOWZAEspecially impressive considering one could easily drop a couple hundred K to update it (it doesn’t look touched since it was built in 2004…and I hate that means it looks this dated now).
May 4May 4 liberty lofts developer —https://www.instagram.com/reel/DJIH4uqpOG6/?igsh=MWFyb3Y3cTJseTRhdg==
May 12May 12 Author Redirected from the Ten60 Bolivar development thread....Yes. While there are new-construction projects planned for downtown, none of them can make their numbers work. Even most of the historic rehab/office conversion projects are having difficulty and cannot close financing. Having the 100 percent tax abatement restored would help many of these deals pencil. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 12May 12 1 hour ago, KJP said:Redirected from the Ten60 Bolivar development thread....Yes. While there are new-construction projects planned for downtown, none of them can make their numbers work. Even most of the historic rehab/office conversion projects are having difficulty and cannot close financing. Having the 100 percent tax abatement restored would help many of these deals pencil.Is there any conversation/political will to reverse that?
May 13May 13 Author 2 hours ago, marty15 said:Is there any conversation/political will to reverse that?The development community is too afraid to discuss it publicly. No one wants to go on the record for fear of revenge by the city (ie vengeful building inspectors, opposition to future projects, etc). People fearing their governments in America is a disturbing trend. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 13May 13 It is actually cheaper to rent downtown than it is in both University Circle and Ohio City (I just googled downtown Cleveland rental average and it is actually lower). From an economics standpoint, the city would want the income taxes from the people who move in, but I can understand the push towards not sacrificing future funds for the schools with the tax abatement. It’s an interesting conundrum; I ask myself if the lack of newer housing options would actually dampen demand in a high demand neighborhood-level market? It’s taken downtown years to get to this point- but interestingly enough, our downtown rents are STILL lower than most other cities. This explains why developers still can’t make the numbers work, which was the same boat we were in 20 years ago.
May 13May 13 I wonder what kind of financial analysis was made justifying the reduction to the 100% tax abatement in "desirable" neighborhoods. For example, if you discourage say 10 developments in hot areas, where developers can make money, but gain 1 development in an area where the abatement is still 100%, how does that help you? I understand the moral issue of trying to raise up relatively "disadvantaged" areas, and avoid the "rich get richer" scenario, however you may need to do other/additional things to make this happen, while still getting higher income tax revenues from the hot areas. Also, don't forget, after the 15 year abatement ends , you get a larger bonanza, the more developments that were built. Ah, politics!
May 13May 13 Looking at it the other way I suppose, as long as new developments are being built in the plenty of available land surrounding downtown (especially east side), then that's still a win, as there's very much still a low density ring around downtown that needs filled to continue to increase the city's population/vibrancy. I just selfishly want shiny new apartments downtown lol
May 13May 13 Author The fault in their thinking is that reducing abatement in hot areas and keeping abatement where it is in not-hot areas would cause investment dollars to flow to the not-hot areas. That's flawed, parochial thinking. A hot area like Ohio City or Downtown in Cleveland is competing for national and global investment dollars with the likes of Columbus' Short North or Upper Arlington, or Detroit's Corktown or Midtown, or Pittsburgh's East Liberty or Carson Street. Cleveland's not-hot areas weren't competing with anything before Jan. 1, 2024 and they still aren't.The better solution would be to increase the abatement by lengthening the term of it in not-areas or provide some additional incentive to at least make them somewhat competitive. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 13May 13 12 hours ago, KJP said:The development community is too afraid to discuss it publicly. No one wants to go on the record for fear of revenge by the city (ie vengeful building inspectors, opposition to future projects, etc). People fearing their governments in America is a disturbing trend.Yikes. I guess l'm too naive. It didn't occur to me that retribution by some in city government would be a thing.
May 13May 13 1 hour ago, KJP said:The fault in their thinking is that reducing abatement in hot areas and keeping abatement where it is in not-hot areas would cause investment dollars to flow to the not-hot areas. That's flawed, parochial thinking. A hot area like Ohio City or Downtown in Cleveland is competing for national and global investment dollars with the likes of Columbus' Short North or Upper Arlington, or Detroit's Corktown or Midtown, or Pittsburgh's East Liberty or Carson Street. Cleveland's not-hot areas weren't competing with anything before Jan. 1, 2024 and they still aren't.The better solution would be to increase the abatement by lengthening the term of it in not-areas or provide some additional incentive to at least make them somewhat competitive.I have to wonder about the bankers in this scenario -- if downtown projects have demonstrated success, why wouldn't a bank want to invest, and why does the city/schools have to spend tax income/give tax breaks for the bank to ok the financing? Competition makes capitalism work, right? Are the big banks demanding too much of a profit margin and is there no smaller bank willing to make the deal for lower returns? The tax breaks seemed to work -- construction projects (particularly conversions of existing buildings) that were kind of a new thing took off and demonstrated success. Now that success has been demonstrated, banks should not need government incentives to continue on that course. If banks only want to take on a project when the government chips in, that says a lot about the ability of capitalism to get things done on its own.
May 13May 13 Author It's not just banks but equity firms, pension funds and individual investors. Their money is going to go where the return is highest. If those high-return projects are funded, they'll look to projects that offer a lower rate of return and so on down the line. Cleveland projects can compete better if they receive public incentives. Some may be able to generate returns for investors but those returns aren't high enough to attract their funding when other projects in other cities offer better returns. So the project doesn't get built.Now, without the 100 percent tax abatement, nothing downtown (a higher-cost construction environment) is even getting proposed let alone built. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 13May 13 2 hours ago, KJP said:It's not just banks but equity firms, pension funds and individual investors. Their money is going to go where the return is highest. If those high-return projects are funded, they'll look to projects that offer a lower rate of return and so on down the line.Cleveland projects can compete better if they receive public incentives. Some may be able to generate returns for investors but those returns aren't high enough to attract their funding when other projects in other cities offer better returns. So the project doesn't get built.Now, without the 100 percent tax abatement, nothing downtown (a higher-cost construction environment) is even getting proposed let alone built.In other words, the banks and investors in construction projects are not local -- they're national or regional players. So we have to offer better returns than Nashville to get anything built. (Someone should create a local investment fund; maybe the County or Greater Cleveland Partnership, to fund local (and only local) projects and invite local investors to join. I would. I know that investment in my city will benefit me in a multitude of ways in the long term, and so I don't need the absolute highest return on that investment in order to get me to make it. I also don't have $1m to invest....)
May 14May 14 Maybe I'm misunderstanding but I am completely floored right now.What was with that ridiculous fluff piece for the rose building by news 5 which was I believe about how good cleveland is at office conversions and how cities around the nation are coming here for guidance? As this piece drops the city is at the same time taking away one of it's key development corner stones?By the sound of things this is such a massive blunder, I can't imagine who in God's name is advising the city or why this decision would be made. People aren't building or moving to slavic village, kinsman, central, lee-seville or buckeye for so much more than freaking tax abatements.Especially After covids damage it's so obvious downtown is missing a ton of important amenities and from my understanding still feels pretty empty. With it looking like the browns are leaving which means the city will likely miss out on lakefront development we need to be aggressively pursuing development. I can't see this as nothing more than a total bone head move. Does This effect things like bedrock?
May 14May 14 2 hours ago, FutureboyWonder said:Does This effect things like bedrock?No Bedrock already exists. It might affect them though
May 14May 14 On 5/13/2025 at 8:37 AM, KJP said:The fault in their thinking is that reducing abatement in hot areas and keeping abatement where it is in not-hot areas would cause investment dollars to flow to the not-hot areas. That's flawed, parochial thinking. A hot area like Ohio City or Downtown in Cleveland is competing for national and global investment dollars with the likes of Columbus' Short North or Upper Arlington, or Detroit's Corktown or Midtown, or Pittsburgh's East Liberty or Carson Street. Cleveland's not-hot areas weren't competing with anything before Jan. 1, 2024 and they still aren't.The better solution would be to increase the abatement by lengthening the term of it in not-areas or provide some additional incentive to at least make them somewhat competitive.Very true. There are only a limited amount of neighborhoods in Cleveland that will actually attract substantive investment, and they'll need to be saturated before other areas will take off (and they're a long ways from being saturated). So these incentives are needed where there's actual potential.
Create an account or sign in to comment