I often wonder why we don't see property owners and developers throwing out some sleek condo tower renderings with the express intent on getting majority of presale commitments. Based on the reception you can change the scope of the project.

 

I'm not so knowledgeable with this idea though. Is it hard to get the overall financing for a project like this due to the amount of individual mortgage loans? Or is is that the individual mortgage loans themselves are the difficult part to get for a condo? I know I for one would be very interested if presented with buying into a condo hiserise construction.

 

From my (limited) understanding, it is kind of a chicken or hen situation. Because developers don't want to front capital to propose a project in which they're unsure of selling out. Additionally, individual buyers might be hesitant to buy in such a limited market that might be subject to major fluctuations.

 

You're right though. One twenty-story highrise would double the available volume downtown overnight.

^^LA, Seattle, San Fran, Omaha, Buffalo, Detroit and Chicago have condo shortages in their downtowns as well. My impression was Portland had a tight market too.

Then why couldn't a cooperative of prospective homeowners form to develop a downtown residential tower? A publicly owned parcel would be ideal if it could be leased for something 99 years at $1 per year.

My mom lives downtown and this topic is an ongoing discussion in her building. There has to be a market for condos...half the residents in my Mom's building want to own.

^^LA, Seattle, San Fran, Omaha, Buffalo, Detroit and Chicago have condo shortages in their downtowns as well. My impression was Portland had a tight market too.

 

There is a BIG difference between a "tight market" and minimal volume.

There are 9 available downtown properties on Redfin. Has your roommate looked at them?

 

^9 is hardly a big number when one is looking for a place to live. There are probably 10,000 Houses for sale right now in Cuyahoga County--it doesn't mean that all 10,000 are a good fit for the buyer---in terms of price, size, amenities, etc.

 

The small sample size I think first of all makes it hard to get an idea if the property you're looking at is a good deal or a ripoff - a shortage like this can really drive prices up. He was just complaining about it the day before this article went up, he was showing me a unit in the building between W. 6th and W. 9th kind of behind the RTA headquarters. He's also looked at Stonebridge but I think yeah he'd just appreciate more options. I personally would argue that Stonebridge isn't even downtown - I doubt anyone who lives there walks to work or play downtown? They might Uber over on the weekends.

Thinking about this I'm kind of surprised Playhouse Square isn't planning on selling condo units in their tower.

There are 9 available downtown properties on Redfin. Has your roommate looked at them?

 

^9 is hardly a big number when one is looking for a place to live. There are probably 10,000 Houses for sale right now in Cuyahoga County--it doesn't mean that all 10,000 are a good fit for the buyer---in terms of price, size, amenities, etc.

 

The small sample size I think first of all makes it hard to get an idea if the property you're looking at is a good deal or a ripoff - a shortage like this can really drive prices up. He was just complaining about it the day before this article went up, he was showing me a unit in the building between W. 6th and W. 9th kind of behind the RTA headquarters. He's also looked at Stonebridge but I think yeah he'd just appreciate more options. I personally would argue that Stonebridge isn't even downtown - I doubt anyone who lives there walks to work or play downtown? They might Uber over on the weekends.

 

I walk to work from 29th and Franklin and I work on E. 9th. Though my commute admittedly takes a half hour.

 

I've heard Prospect Place is in the process of flipping to condos, though that will only add <10 units. Projects like Worthington Square, Beacon, Garfield, etc. all could have been condos. The developers could've even hung on to more than half the units if they wanted the rental income. I don't get it.

Mortgage lenders don’t like mixed buildings. They are of a very inside the box mindset.

Then why couldn't a cooperative of prospective homeowners form to develop a downtown residential tower? A publicly owned parcel would be ideal if it could be leased for something 99 years at $1 per year.

 

Does anyone on this forum want to take the lead and put this cooperative together? :) My suggestion would to be to approach Old Stone Church and inquire if they would be open to lease on the property behind the actual church. Offer to work in replacement facility for them into the condo base (it looked like it needed some renovation last time I was in there anyways)

I walk to work from 29th and Franklin and I work on E. 9th. Though my commute admittedly takes a half hour.

 

That's sincerely great, but come on, you know that your neighbors aren't doing that.

 

Most of our peers, the supposed downtown progressive yuppies who desire walkability, drive. Like the guy I met yesterday who lives on 6th and Euclid and works down by the Clinic and has never ridden the Healthline. Didn't even remember what it was called. I pressed him on it and he said he regularly travels to Boston and DC for work and walks and rides transit all the time in those cities, it's just not on his radar here in Cleveland. A lot of the downtown CLE population are people who used to live in large coastal cities and took transit all the time, are open to transit in theory, but moved back home, and have never set foot on an RTA vehicle let alone walk more than 10 blocks.

 

I actually think I convinced this guy to try the HL, so there's hope, but it just doesn't reflect the current mindset here and most people just do what their peers do. Getting off topic, sorry. More condos please.

There are 9 available downtown properties on Redfin. Has your roommate looked at them?

 

^9 is hardly a big number when one is looking for a place to live. There are probably 10,000 Houses for sale right now in Cuyahoga County--it doesn't mean that all 10,000 are a good fit for the buyer---in terms of price, size, amenities, etc.

 

The small sample size I think first of all makes it hard to get an idea if the property you're looking at is a good deal or a ripoff - a shortage like this can really drive prices up. He was just complaining about it the day before this article went up, he was showing me a unit in the building between W. 6th and W. 9th kind of behind the RTA headquarters. He's also looked at Stonebridge but I think yeah he'd just appreciate more options. I personally would argue that Stonebridge isn't even downtown - I doubt anyone who lives there walks to work or play downtown? They might Uber over on the weekends.

 

I walk to work from 29th and Franklin and I work on E. 9th. Though my commute admittedly takes a half hour.

 

I've heard Prospect Place is in the process of flipping to condos, though that will only add <10 units. Projects like Worthington Square, Beacon, Garfield, etc. all could have been condos. The developers could've even hung on to more than half the units if they wanted the rental income. I don't get it.

I walk to work from 29th and Franklin and I work on E. 9th. Though my commute admittedly takes a half hour.

 

That's sincerely great, but come on, you know that your neighbors aren't doing that.

 

Most of our peers, the supposed downtown progressive yuppies who desire walkability, drive. Like the guy I met yesterday who lives on 6th and Euclid and works down by the Clinic and has never ridden the Healthline. Didn't even remember what it was called. I pressed him on it and he said he regularly travels to Boston and DC for work and walks and rides transit all the time in those cities, it's just not on his radar here in Cleveland. A lot of the downtown CLE population are people who used to live in large coastal cities and took transit all the time, are open to transit in theory, but moved back home, and have never set foot on an RTA vehicle let alone walk more than 10 blocks.

 

I actually think I convinced this guy to try the HL, so there's hope, but it just doesn't reflect the current mindset here and most people just do what their peers do. Getting off topic, sorry. More condos please.

 

You really weren't all that far off topic. Having viable, efficient, and recognizable public transit is a huge reason people buy homes in most major metros.

 

But, to your first point, I actually meet up with a friend 2-3 days a week who walks from 25th Lofts.

^9 is hardly a big number when one is looking for a place to live. There are probably 10,000 Houses for sale right now in Cuyahoga County--it doesn't mean that all 10,000 are a good fit for the buyer---in terms of price, size, amenities, etc.

 

Agreed, 9 is an embarrassing small number...especially for someone moving in from out-of-town looking for downtown urban ownership.

 

Portland (where I currently live and where the gentlemen from the article above moved from) provides a better example of what Downtown Cleveland could/should look like from a "for sale" offerings metric.  Portland OR has a similar 2.3 million metro population.  For sale in Portland's city center:

 

Downtown Portland -- 48 condos for sale:

https://www.zillow.com/downtown-portland-or/condos/

 

Pearl District/Downtown Portland  -- 52 condos for sale:

https://www.zillow.com/homes/Pearl-District-Portland-OR_rb/

 

Thanks 100 "for sale" options for someone looking to own downtown. Heck, before I bought my own house out here, I personally looked at 30+ houses before deciding.

 

Downtown Cleveland drastically needs a tremendous increase of "for sale" downtown living options. 

 

Downtown Toledo lists 3-4 condos for sale :)

 

Just looked at Redfin at downtown Pittsburgh, which is arguably a more similar market.  Currently 44 and a great deal of those seem to be from one building (probably just went on market).

 

https://www.redfin.com/city/15702/PA/Pittsburgh/filter/property-type=condo,viewport=40.447:40.42528:-79.98288:-80.01313

There are 9 available downtown properties on Redfin. Has your roommate looked at them?

 

^9 is hardly a big number when one is looking for a place to live. There are probably 10,000 Houses for sale right now in Cuyahoga County--it doesn't mean that all 10,000 are a good fit for the buyer---in terms of price, size, amenities, etc.

 

The small sample size I think first of all makes it hard to get an idea if the property you're looking at is a good deal or a ripoff - a shortage like this can really drive prices up. He was just complaining about it the day before this article went up, he was showing me a unit in the building between W. 6th and W. 9th kind of behind the RTA headquarters. He's also looked at Stonebridge but I think yeah he'd just appreciate more options. I personally would argue that Stonebridge isn't even downtown - I doubt anyone who lives there walks to work or play downtown? They might Uber over on the weekends.

 

I live in Stonebridge and walk to the rest of downtown all the time for everything (except work). 15mins to Public Square. I'm not the only one in this building who does either. Plus the added benefit of also being able to easily walk to everything in OC and Hingetown. I love being here just for that reason. Also, I get the "downtown resident discount" for places "downtown".

Also, I get the "downtown resident discount" for places "downtown".

 

What is this "downtown resident discount" that you speak of??

Also, I get the "downtown resident discount" for places "downtown".

 

What is this "downtown resident discount" that you speak of??

 

Depends on the business and what they offer. Studio Palmieri gives 10% off if you live downtown, for example.

^Is it just if you say you live "downtown" or do you have some kind of Downtown resident card to prove it? Or is it based on the address on your driver's license? If it is a downtown resident card, who issues it?

Pretty much just your word. I don't remember ever showing them anything. Though with the kind of conversation people have with their stylist, its not something that's very easy to keep bluffing if you don't.

 

Some kind of program where businesses come together to offer some kind of "rewards" card doesn't seem like a bad idea though. Could get people who are loyal to a hand full of establishments downtown go out and try something new if its on the "program".

East 4th St. used to have a card for residents that was accepted at those businesses.  Usually good for 10% or so.

Pretty much just your word. I don't remember ever showing them anything. Though with the kind of conversation people have with their stylist, its not something that's very easy to keep bluffing if you don't.

 

Some kind of program where businesses come together to offer some kind of "rewards" card doesn't seem like a bad idea though. Could get people who are loyal to a hand full of establishments downtown go out and try something new if its on the "program".

 

Flats East bank has a similar program for all East Bank establishments

December 03, 2017 4:00 am      UPDATED 3 HOURS AGO

Tax reform provisions have local governments on watch

By JAY MILLER 

 

Two obscure provisions of the tax reform proposals making their way through Congress threaten some of the tools local communities use to save money and develop affordable housing.

 

The communities are already holding their breath, fearing the loss of historic and New Markets Tax Credits that help rebuild older cities like Cleveland. Buried more deeply in the tax plans, though, are provisions that would end some of the tax-exempt bond funding used by local governments, school boards and even some nonprofit agencies to help maintain and build their communities.

 

One is a provision to end what is called the advance refunding of tax-exempt bonds. Another would end the use of tax-exempt private activity bonds, or PABs. Tax-exempt financing is used by governments and other public agencies to finance capital improvements and other projects.

 

MORE:

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20171203/news/144361/tax-reform-provisions-have-local-governments-watch

December 03, 2017 4:00 am      UPDATED 12 HOURS AGO

Statler Arms Apartments getting ready for sale

By STAN BULLARD

 

Key Center owner and Cleveland-based apartment owner Frank Sinito is taking steps to land another big downtown building: the Statler Arms Apartments.

 

Sinito, CEO and founder of Millennia Cos., which owns a portfolio of 27,000 apartments, on Nov. 16 organized two new companies with tell-tale names at the Ohio Secretary of State's office: Statler Cleveland LLC and Statler Cleveland Investment LLC.

 

The move came two weeks after Statler's current owner, an affiliate of New York City-based LCor real estate ownership and development company, assigned part of its interest in the 12-story building at 1127 Euclid Ave. to Deutsche Bank Trustee Co. Americas, the agent for a securitized Freddie Mac-backed loan for multiple properties totaling $1.2 billion.

 

MORE:

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20171203/news/144366/statler-arms-apartments-getting-ready-sale

In this stagnant, low-rent market, I will be grateful for any new high-rise construction, regardless of when it happens. I'm just overjoyed they found a creative way to move past the development barriers, no matter when it starts.

 

In speaking with Columbus developers the average apartment rental price per SF is $2 for new construction, basically the same as Cleveland's. You would probably consider Columbus higher rent though wouldn't you. This downtrodden Cleveland attitude runs from this forum all the way up to banks and developers regardless of how true it is, or how other places that are seemingly growing compare favorably to our situation...

 

To piggy back on my comment above, we have landowners here in Cleveland with significant holdings in the central business district that are so afraid of doing anything other than sitting on their surface lots that it's limiting the growth we can actually attain. I am not talking about the Warehouse District parking lots by the way. Think in the areas SE and North of Playhouse Square along Prospect and Chester/Payne respectively. With the size of their holdings the risk is very low and out of pocket cash insignificant, yet due to skepticism and overall malaise of longtime property owners in this market, they're unwilling to make even the slightest efforts to create a more vibrant urban landscape, even when they could be shoveling mounds of cash into their coffers.

 

Moved this from the Playhouse Square tower thread. w28th[/member] the only reason why I say the market is stagnant is because it is. Some of it is justified and some isn't. The fact is that Greater Cleveland's population hasn't grown in nearly 60 years, Cleveland's population has been tanking for nearly 70 years, its jobs market has been sluggish/receding for 40 years, its rents are some of the lowest of any big city in the nation, and its Commercial construction costs per square foot were recently (2010) ranked higher than Washington DC, Denver, Miami, Atlanta, Phoenix, Houston, Dallas and other growing cities.

 

Sure, there's a decent amount of intra-metro area movement of population that justifies a small amount of downtown Cleveland residential development. But if I'm a lender, I question how long that is going to last and at what scale. With growing cities offering higher rents and similar/less construction costs, I'd be more confident loaning big money to a developer in those cities than I would to a developer in Cleveland. Greater Columbus and Columbus proper are both growing at a healthy clip. Greater Cincinnati and Cincinnati proper are growing at a slow pace but still growing. Greater Cleveland is not growing and Cleveland proper continues to shrink. There isn't even a blip of growth in the past 50 years in either Greater Cleveland or the mother city that a lender can point to in order to allay shareholders' concerns that happy days will return again.

 

Sorry to be a downer, but there's only a finite amount of money out there and a lot of growing cities we're competing with. You have to really love Cleveland to ignore its lack of growth of population and jobs in order to invest here. I truly respect all of you who do just that.

^That's not entirely true. The Cleveland MSA did grow in the nineties, ending in 1998.

^That's not entirely true. The Cleveland MSA did grow in the nineties, ending in 1998.

 

True, by 3%, making it the smallest rate of growth among the 40 large metros in the 1990s.

^That's not entirely true. The Cleveland MSA did grow in the nineties, ending in 1998.

 

True, by 3%, making it the smallest rate of growth among the 40 large metros in the 1990s.

 

Not to split hairs, but that honor belongs to Pittsburgh, which only grew less than 1% over three years in the early nineties.

No need to. Go with actual decennial Census counts, not the estimates in the intervening years.

In this stagnant, low-rent market, I will be grateful for any new high-rise construction, regardless of when it happens. I'm just overjoyed they found a creative way to move past the development barriers, no matter when it starts.

KJP,  my question is, why are CLE construction costs so high compared to same sized cities? 

 

In speaking with Columbus developers the average apartment rental price per SF is $2 for new construction, basically the same as Cleveland's. You would probably consider Columbus higher rent though wouldn't you. This downtrodden Cleveland attitude runs from this forum all the way up to banks and developers regardless of how true it is, or how other places that are seemingly growing compare favorably to our situation...

 

To piggy back on my comment above, we have landowners here in Cleveland with significant holdings in the central business district that are so afraid of doing anything other than sitting on their surface lots that it's limiting the growth we can actually attain. I am not talking about the Warehouse District parking lots by the way. Think in the areas SE and North of Playhouse Square along Prospect and Chester/Payne respectively. With the size of their holdings the risk is very low and out of pocket cash insignificant, yet due to skepticism and overall malaise of longtime property owners in this market, they're unwilling to make even the slightest efforts to create a more vibrant urban landscape, even when they could be shoveling mounds of cash into their coffers.

 

Moved this from the Playhouse Square tower thread. w28th[/member] the only reason why I say the market is stagnant is because it is. Some of it is justified and some isn't. The fact is that Greater Cleveland's population hasn't grown in nearly 60 years, Cleveland's population has been tanking for nearly 70 years, its jobs market has been sluggish/receding for 40 years, its rents are some of the lowest of any big city in the nation, and its Commercial construction costs per square foot were recently (2010) ranked higher than Washington DC, Denver, Miami, Atlanta, Phoenix, Houston, Dallas and other growing cities.

 

Sure, there's a decent amount of intra-metro area movement of population that justifies a small amount of downtown Cleveland residential development. But if I'm a lender, I question how long that is going to last and at what scale. With growing cities offering higher rents and similar/less construction costs, I'd be more confident loaning big money to a developer in those cities than I would to a developer in Cleveland. Greater Columbus and Columbus proper are both growing at a healthy clip. Greater Cincinnati and Cincinnati proper are growing at a slow pace but still growing. Greater Cleveland is not growing and Cleveland proper continues to shrink. There isn't even a blip of growth in the past 50 years in either Greater Cleveland or the mother city that a lender can point to in order to allay shareholders' concerns that happy days will return again.

 

Sorry to be a downer, but there's only a finite amount of money out there and a lot of growing cities we're competing with. You have to really love Cleveland to ignore its lack of growth of population and jobs in order to invest here. I truly respect all of you who do just that.

I have long thought that South of Playhouse would be a cool neighborhood if given the option to be. Bolivar area. You have Grays Armory and Erie Street. Best part is I don't think it would take much for the vision to take shape, unlike the wasteland of the warehouse district parking lots. If more people are going to move here from out of state (which I think they would) they are going to have to see cool areas like this and be able to live there.

Frangos controls much of the area south of Playhouse Square. But as long as our transit system doesn't link middle- to outer-suburbs into downtown with fast, traffic-free, rush-hour services, Frangos et al can make too much easy money from parking to consider anything else that requires extra exertion.

 

I do think there's some kind of new population infusion going on, however. I've never seen so many East Coast (especially New York) license plates in Cleveland and Lakewood as I've seen in recent months. I don't know if back-office functions are being moved here or what's going on. But I usually see at least a few, if not a half-dozen or more East Coast license plates each day when I'm around Lakewood, downtown or University Circle/Little Italy.

I do think there's some kind of new population infusion going on ...

 

There is evidence of that in the Cleveland MSA workforce numbers, which have been trending upward for about three years. The rise may not be absolute, but there is probably a growth in younger age categories. 

 

Doesn't the recent designation of the north-of-Superior arts district show a City Hall preference for development to tend in that direction rather than south-of-PHS?

 

 

I usually see at least a few, if not a half-dozen or more East Coast license plates each day when I'm around Lakewood, downtown or University Circle/Little Italy.

 

I have seen more than a few posts on reddit like I'm moving to Cleveland from NY/NJ, what kind of house could I find for under 300k?

Doesn't the recent designation of the north-of-Superior arts district show a City Hall preference for development to tend in that direction rather than south-of-PHS?

 

 

Not just that. When Crain's did an interview of DCA's Tom Yablonsky, he said that the Superior Arts District was among the places to look for downtown and near-downtown growth. When I read that, I checked the county's property transactions at MyPlace and found a large number (ie: more than a dozen) of parcels had changed hands this year. It was all the same buyer -- Global X -- using different company names to acquire parcels. That's the same company that's renovating the old Daffy Dan's building at East 21st and Superior for its new HQ. Global X is absolutely taking over this neighborhood for a major investment play. What that actually involves remains to be seen.

^The more I learn about Global X, the more they look like a version of Fund That Flip: crowd-funding of redevelopment, except GX seems willing to do the work itself rather than intermediate out both ends of the deal.

speaking of flips, the flipside is that banks and developers are also interested in synergy and hot neighborhoods and downtown is one of the hottest in ne ohio. residential grew by 1000 and floats around a healthy 15k, including 1000 families or so. its up 77% bet 2000-2015. its tied for 8th w/miami and its doppleganger seattle in attracting post college grads. boomerangers and retirees are taking to it. and there are only 880 condos, so there is certainly a future market for more ownership as well of some type, if not enough to fund a new tower. its certainly not all bad news for downtown developments despite the region’s stagnation as a whole, which is really no more stagnant than the state as a whole outside of columbus.

here is something

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2017/05/01/downtown-cleveland-residential-population.amp.html

^"Within the last five years....a 200 percent increase of children 5 to 9 years old shifted the paradigm." that's great news. Of course, those are only population estimates. I wonder where these kids are going to school.

^ good question. parochial schools? just guessing that these families have some coin.

 

it might be incentive to bring on the little pocket kiddie parks and dog runs for them and in advance of more to come.

Hey guys, after seeing some posts on here re: people from out of state living here, I decided to do a little audit of my apartment building at 29th and Detroit today:

 

- 3 Maryland plates

- 3 Michigan plates

- 2 Georgia plates

- 1 New York plate

- 1 Florida plate

- 1 Massachusetts plate

- 1 Vermont plate

Been noticing more Maryland plates, too. But nothing like the number of NY plates around Lakewood.

Been noticing more Maryland plates, too. But nothing like the number of NY plates around Lakewood.

 

I have some family in Buffalo. I think a segment of the population in Buffalo look at a move to Cleveland as many Clevelanders view a move to Chicago (obviously to a lesser extent)... but nonetheless, it's a place with slightly more to do and more opportunity for people in the 22-32 range.

^ Western New York is a huge (and potential) population source. I get the sense though, that a lot of them and others don't necessarily want downtown high rise living, and they definitely don't detached single family neighborhoods. They want traditional urban neighborhoods. Something Cleveland doesn't have a lot of stock of currently.   

^ Western New York is a huge (and potential) population source. I get the sense though, that a lot of them and others don't necessarily want downtown high rise living, and they definitely don't detached single family neighborhoods. They want traditional urban neighborhoods. Something Cleveland doesn't have a lot of stock of currently.   

 

Certainly a fair point, they want South Buffalo on steroids, which is currently only available via Ohio City and Tremont - hopefully D-S and maybe even Midtown will join in the coming years.

^"Within the last five years....a 200 percent increase of children 5 to 9 years old shifted the paradigm." that's great news. Of course, those are only population estimates. I wonder where these kids are going to school.

 

We live downtown and my little one goes to Campus Inyernational. We can afford a private school but never considered one. She loves the school. It’s like a mini UN. I also know that a few playgrounds for downtown are in the works

^"Within the last five years....a 200 percent increase of children 5 to 9 years old shifted the paradigm." that's great news. Of course, those are only population estimates. I wonder where these kids are going to school.

 

We live downtown and my little one goes to Campus Inyernational. We can afford a private school but never considered one. She loves the school. It’s like a mini UN. I also know that a few playgrounds for downtown are in the works

 

If you don't mind me asking, where do the educational standards rank and how does the school ensure that for you?

Hey guys, after seeing some posts on here re: people from out of state living here, I decided to do a little audit of my apartment building at 29th and Detroit today:

 

- 3 Maryland plates

- 3 Michigan plates

- 2 Georgia plates

- 1 New York plate

- 1 Florida plate

- 1 Massachusetts plate

- 1 Vermont plate

 

Thats some pretty nifty sleuthing!

Don't sleuth-shame me^

^ Western New York is a huge (and potential) population source. I get the sense though, that a lot of them and others don't necessarily want downtown high rise living, and they definitely don't detached single family neighborhoods. They want traditional urban neighborhoods. Something Cleveland doesn't have a lot of stock of currently.   

 

That is what I have always wanted and always felt we lacked. I was in Cbus for a few years after college and I felt that the neighborhoods off of North High Street (and a few other places) were better as traditional urban neighborhoods than what CLE has. Nicer stock of old homes there. Though Cleveland has its gems on streets like Clifton and Franklin, mostly there were a lot of cheap wooden houses built here back in the day.

 

Cincy probably beats us too with OTR as well as some of the east side neighborhoods and the area around UC. (Though Cincy can be very disconnected due to hills creating large geographic barriers, it's truly a city made of separate villages.)

 

However, Lakewood is probably the best traditional urban area of a significant size and population in the whole state, and Cleveland Heights also holds its own.

Yabo713--you counted those cars over how many minutes of time? or were they all parked? Would be interested to see also how many OH cars there were to get a sense of the magnitude of the out of state plates--or even better--OH cars by county (e.g., 18=Cuyahoga, 47=Lorain, etc.) to see the cities pull from other places.....

 

Yabo713--you counted those cars over how many minutes of time? or were they all parked? Would be interested to see also how many OH cars there were to get a sense of the magnitude of the out of state plates--or even better--OH cars by county (e.g., 18=Cuyahoga, 47=Lorain, etc.) to see the cities pull from other places.....

 

 

All parked within 500 feet of my building, which typically means they're residents of my building, as all surrounding homes have driveways. And about 10-15 minutes this morning while my car was warming up.