Nice write up.....

 

TOP 10 REASONS I LOVE LIVING IN DOWNTOWN CLEVELAND

Downtown Cleveland

 

1. The commute. I walk a mere 10-15 minutes down Lakeside Avenue and I’m at work. Thus meaning that I don’t have to deal with the people who can’t seem to figure out how to drive in the snow. I can also maintain a nice, peaceful state of mind before starting the work day, rather than suffering from severe road rage. Plus, the snow looks like a winter wonderland when I walk into work, as opposed to the mentality of, “I hate this crap”, while gouging ice and snow off my car windows.

 

2. My apartment building. Bridgeview in the Warehouse District has fabulous apartments with exposed brick, pipes and wooden beams, along with tons of natural light. I love how much space we have – two floors, with over 1200 square feet – for the price we pay. In no other city could we afford to live in a place like this, but in Cleveland the low cost of living makes it feasible!

 

READ MORE AT:

http://cleunleashed.wordpress.com/2014/02/07/living-in-downtown-cleveland/

Residences at Hanna are 100% Leased with a 40 person waiting list. http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/features/2014/02/20/new-life-brought-to-playhousesquare/5607165/

 

Residences at Hanna are 100% Leased with a 40 person waiting list. http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/features/2014/02/20/new-life-brought-to-playhousesquare/5607165/

 

Very cool! I moved in back in December after snagging a unit that had a cancellation just minutes before I called. It's a fantastic building and my unit is gorgeous. We've had some issues with drafty windows that weren't replaced during the renovation, but K&D was quick to remedy the situation and has ordered new windows. The building manager has been really friendly. Glad to see that it's getting so much attention.

$1600 for 1,400 sqft = $1.15 per sqft.  Rents are so cheap in Cleveland.  With occupancy rates so high, why are developers not charging a higher rate?

 

$1600 for 1,400 sqft = $1.15 per sqft.  Rents are so cheap in Cleveland.  With occupancy rates so high, why are developers not charging a higher rate?

 

Hey, don't give them any ideas! I like my cheap rent. ;)

 

Residences at Hanna are 100% Leased with a 40 person waiting list. http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/features/2014/02/20/new-life-brought-to-playhousesquare/5607165/

 

Very cool! I moved in back in December after snagging a unit that had a cancellation just minutes before I called. It's a fantastic building and my unit is gorgeous. We've had some issues with drafty windows that weren't replaced during the renovation, but K&D was quick to remedy the situation and has ordered new windows. The building manager has been really friendly. Glad to see that it's getting so much attention.

 

I was wondering about that.  Driving by every day on my way home from work, I noticed more and more plastic-sheeted windows!

$1600 for 1,400 sqft = $1.15 per sqft.  Rents are so cheap in Cleveland.  With occupancy rates so high, why are developers not charging a higher rate?

 

They are every year.  It was a little less than $1.00/sq ft when I moved down here a little less than a decade ago.

 

 

Residences at Hanna are 100% Leased with a 40 person waiting list. http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/features/2014/02/20/new-life-brought-to-playhousesquare/5607165/

 

Very cool! I moved in back in December after snagging a unit that had a cancellation just minutes before I called. It's a fantastic building and my unit is gorgeous. We've had some issues with drafty windows that weren't replaced during the renovation, but K&D was quick to remedy the situation and has ordered new windows. The building manager has been really friendly. Glad to see that it's getting so much attention.

 

I was wondering about that.  Driving by every day on my way home from work, I noticed more and more plastic-sheeted windows!

 

Yeah, the windows all have to be custom made, so they've been putting up insulation kits while they wait for them to come in. The ones for my unit are supposed to be in within a few days. I've been pretty happy with how quickly they handled it.

$1600 for 1,400 sqft = $1.15 per sqft.  Rents are so cheap in Cleveland.  With occupancy rates so high, why are developers not charging a higher rate?

 

Just another reason why I don't understand by the convention center hotel developer isn't adding 15 stories of condos on top of the new tower.

New construction rents typically run $40 to $50 per square foot, at least in the downtown office market; not sure why it would be much different for residential.

I guess the thought would be that residential developers wouldn't have to pay for foundation work.

New construction rents typically run $40 to $50 per square foot, at least in the downtown office market; not sure why it would be much different for residential.

 

They EY building is commanding about $30 sqft, which is the highest in the city.  The Hanna building annualized residential rent would be $13.80 sqft.

New construction rents typically run $40 to $50 per square foot, at least in the downtown office market; not sure why it would be much different for residential.

 

They EY building is commanding about $30 sqft, which is the highest in the city.  The Hanna building annualized residential rent would be $13.80 sqft.

 

I'm surprised E&Y is commanding only $30 sqft; rents in Key Tower range in the mid $30s to low $40s; regardless, those kind of numbers don't really make sense for residential purposes in Cleveland at least.

New construction rents typically run $40 to $50 per square foot, at least in the downtown office market; not sure why it would be much different for residential.

 

They EY building is commanding about $30 sqft, which is the highest in the city.  The Hanna building annualized residential rent would be $13.80 sqft.

 

I'm surprised E&Y is commanding only $30 sqft; rents in Key Tower range in the mid $30s to low $40s; regardless, those kind of numbers don't really make sense for residential purposes in Cleveland at least.

 

"The asking rate at Key Tower is about $27 to $29 a square foot. "

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20130510/FREE/130519971#

 

New construction rents typically run $40 to $50 per square foot, at least in the downtown office market; not sure why it would be much different for residential.

 

They EY building is commanding about $30 sqft, which is the highest in the city.  The Hanna building annualized residential rent would be $13.80 sqft.

 

I'm surprised E&Y is commanding only $30 sqft; rents in Key Tower range in the mid $30s to low $40s; regardless, those kind of numbers don't really make sense for residential purposes in Cleveland at least.

 

"The asking rate at Key Tower is about $27 to $29 a square foot. "

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20130510/FREE/130519971#

 

 

Trust me, it's more than that, even for relatively low floors with a long-time lease.

Let's steer the conversation back to residential, there is an office vacancy thread

$1600 for 1,400 sqft = $1.15 per sqft.  Rents are so cheap in Cleveland.  With occupancy rates so high, why are developers not charging a higher rate?

 

Just another reason why I don't understand by the convention center hotel developer isn't adding 15 stories of condos on top of the new tower.

As a buyer, why would I want to live on top, not in it's own tower, of a CONVENTION hotel? What is in it for me?  It's not like this is a luxury property, like the Conrad Miami, W Ft. Lauderdale, Radison in Chicago [apartment, condo building w/hotel - this is a different concept] or Ritz-Carlton, LA Live, where there are different entrances, towers, amenities, etc.  I think putting residential over this would be a terrible idea.

$1600 for 1,400 sqft = $1.15 per sqft.  Rents are so cheap in Cleveland.  With occupancy rates so high, why are developers not charging a higher rate?

 

Just another reason why I don't understand by the convention center hotel developer isn't adding 15 stories of condos on top of the new tower.

As a buyer, why would I want to live on top, not in it's own tower, of a CONVENTION hotel? What is in it for me?  It's not like this is a luxury property, like the Conrad Miami, W Ft. Lauderdale, Radison in Chicago [apartment, condo building w/hotel - this is a different concept] or Ritz-Carlton, LA Live, where there are different entrances, towers, amenities, etc.  I think putting residential over this would be a terrible idea.

 

Why not give it a separate entrance?  But then again, it would require parking, which they've already dropped the ball on.

$1600 for 1,400 sqft = $1.15 per sqft.  Rents are so cheap in Cleveland.  With occupancy rates so high, why are developers not charging a higher rate?

 

Just another reason why I don't understand by the convention center hotel developer isn't adding 15 stories of condos on top of the new tower.

As a buyer, why would I want to live on top, not in it's own tower, of a CONVENTION hotel? What is in it for me?  It's not like this is a luxury property, like the Conrad Miami, W Ft. Lauderdale, Radison in Chicago [apartment, condo building w/hotel - this is a different concept] or Ritz-Carlton, LA Live, where there are different entrances, towers, amenities, etc.  I think putting residential over this would be a terrible idea.

 

Why not give it a separate entrance?  But then again, it would require parking, which they've already dropped the ball on.

 

An what would adding just a "separate" entrance do?  How is that beneficial to the condo owners?  I'm asking certain questions, in a certain way, so that you think of this from a BUYERS and DEVELOPERS perspective. 

$1600 for 1,400 sqft = $1.15 per sqft.  Rents are so cheap in Cleveland.  With occupancy rates so high, why are developers not charging a higher rate?

 

Just another reason why I don't understand by the convention center hotel developer isn't adding 15 stories of condos on top of the new tower.

As a buyer, why would I want to live on top, not in it's own tower, of a CONVENTION hotel? What is in it for me?  It's not like this is a luxury property, like the Conrad Miami, W Ft. Lauderdale, Radison in Chicago [apartment, condo building w/hotel - this is a different concept] or Ritz-Carlton, LA Live, where there are different entrances, towers, amenities, etc.  I think putting residential over this would be a terrible idea.

 

Why not give it a separate entrance?  But then again, it would require parking, which they've already dropped the ball on.

 

An what would adding just a "separate" entrance do?  How is that beneficial to the condo owners?  I'm asking certain questions, in a certain way, so that you think of this from a BUYERS and DEVELOPERS perspective. 

 

Sorry MTS.  Not sure I'm following you here.  If there is a separate entrance and access to the hotel ammenities, how is this different than similar properties in other markets?

 

 

$1600 for 1,400 sqft = $1.15 per sqft.  Rents are so cheap in Cleveland.  With occupancy rates so high, why are developers not charging a higher rate?

 

Just another reason why I don't understand by the convention center hotel developer isn't adding 15 stories of condos on top of the new tower.

As a buyer, why would I want to live on top, not in it's own tower, of a CONVENTION hotel? What is in it for me?  It's not like this is a luxury property, like the Conrad Miami, W Ft. Lauderdale, Radison in Chicago [apartment, condo building w/hotel - this is a different concept] or Ritz-Carlton, LA Live, where there are different entrances, towers, amenities, etc.  I think putting residential over this would be a terrible idea.

 

Why not give it a separate entrance?  But then again, it would require parking, which they've already dropped the ball on.

 

An what would adding just a "separate" entrance do?  How is that beneficial to the condo owners?  I'm asking certain questions, in a certain way, so that you think of this from a BUYERS and DEVELOPERS perspective. 

 

Sorry MTS.  Not sure I'm following you here.  If there is a separate entrance and access to the hotel ammenities, how is this different than similar properties in other markets?

 

 

Now you've asked the right question.  Why should I pay for hotel amenities at a convention center hotel? I'll ask it this way, why should I pay HOA fees at a small number of condos, yet not have full access to the pool or amenities other buildings have.  I'll have to pay for amenities - share - with hotel guests.  I'm paying for the pool, that hotel guests are using.

 

Sorry MTS.  Not sure I'm following you here.  If there is a separate entrance and access to the hotel ammenities, how is this different than similar properties in other markets?

 

 

Now you've asked the right question.  Why should I pay for hotel amenities at a convention center hotel? I'll ask it this way, why should I pay HOA fees at a small number of condos, yet not have full access to the pool or amenities other buildings have.  I'll have to pay for amenities - share - with hotel guests.  I'm paying for the pool, that hotel guests are using.

 

Still not following, because even your examples include ones where the owners share the ammenities.  If your suggesting the convention hotel isn't "classy" enough for these prospective buyers, I don't disagree.  But if the price point is right (thanks to the public money "foundation" for the development), perhaps it would be enough to sell 15-20 units with a prime location near to courts, etc in downtown Cleveland.

 

Sorry MTS.  Not sure I'm following you here.  If there is a separate entrance and access to the hotel ammenities, how is this different than similar properties in other markets?

 

 

Now you've asked the right question.  Why should I pay for hotel amenities at a convention center hotel? I'll ask it this way, why should I pay HOA fees at a small number of condos, yet not have full access to the pool or amenities other buildings have.  I'll have to pay for amenities - share - with hotel guests.  I'm paying for the pool, that hotel guests are using.

 

Still not following, because even your examples include ones where the owners share the ammenities.  If your suggesting the convention hotel isn't "classy" enough for these prospective buyers, I don't disagree.  But if the price point is right (thanks to the public money "foundation" for the development), perhaps it would be enough to sell 15-20 units with a prime location near to courts, etc in downtown Cleveland.

 

No they do not share the amenities.  There are separate pools (exception W Atlanta), gyms, entrances, visitor suites, etc.    There are common things, like valet, restaurants, even the property lobbies are separate.  I mention those specific properties because I've been to them.

 

As a home owner, I don't want to pay for something, the hotel guests have access too.  If I want to use the pool, I want to do so in peace.  Not when a ton of people are there.

 

Sorry MTS.  Not sure I'm following you here.  If there is a separate entrance and access to the hotel ammenities, how is this different than similar properties in other markets?

 

 

Now you've asked the right question.  Why should I pay for hotel amenities at a convention center hotel? I'll ask it this way, why should I pay HOA fees at a small number of condos, yet not have full access to the pool or amenities other buildings have.  I'll have to pay for amenities - share - with hotel guests.  I'm paying for the pool, that hotel guests are using.

 

Still not following, because even your examples include ones where the owners share the ammenities.  If your suggesting the convention hotel isn't "classy" enough for these prospective buyers, I don't disagree.  But if the price point is right (thanks to the public money "foundation" for the development), perhaps it would be enough to sell 15-20 units with a prime location near to courts, etc in downtown Cleveland.

 

No they do not share the amenities.  There are separate pools (exception W Atlanta), gyms, entrances, visitor suites, etc.    There are common things, like valet, restaurants, even the property lobbies are separate.  I mention those specific properties because I've been to them.

 

As a home owner, I don't want to pay for something, the hotel guests have access too.  If I want to use the pool, I want to do so in peace.  Not when a ton of people are there.

 

I do understand your point.  But I also think the future of Cleveland needs our leaders to be pressed to think outside the box.  You cite a handful of examples of shared amenities in these types of mixed use buildings in other markets.    But this is Cleveland.  There have been condos sold for $400K plus with no pool in the Pinnacle.  Would the same demo go for a condo on the 35th floor of a high rise, with the same or better amenities, AND add a pool, that they might have to share with a convention-goer?

 

I would think there are 10-15 high-roller lawyers who would love an EXCLUSIVE condo like this (for Cleveland).  30-35 stories above the streets, across the street from the courts, walking distance to the rest of downtown. 

 

My problem with this convention hotel is that it just stinks of a typical Cleveland politically-moved project.  It's all about speed and ease.  Its about getting that wood sign posted on the site with all the politicians names listed...free political ads in all their red white and blue glory.  No one thought to make a more lasting impact.  They just want to get the hotel done and not put any effort into a bigger agenda for the future of Cleveland.

 

 

I'm skeptical that high rollers would be interested in living above a Hilton convention hotel across the street from the Justice Center. 

 

Does anyone know of any convention hotels in mid-tier cities that are mixed use?  I can't even think of any convention hotels in even big markets like NY that have a residential component.

 

Sorry MTS.  Not sure I'm following you here.  If there is a separate entrance and access to the hotel ammenities, how is this different than similar properties in other markets?

 

 

Now you've asked the right question.  Why should I pay for hotel amenities at a convention center hotel? I'll ask it this way, why should I pay HOA fees at a small number of condos, yet not have full access to the pool or amenities other buildings have.  I'll have to pay for amenities - share - with hotel guests.  I'm paying for the pool, that hotel guests are using.

 

Still not following, because even your examples include ones where the owners share the ammenities.  If your suggesting the convention hotel isn't "classy" enough for these prospective buyers, I don't disagree.  But if the price point is right (thanks to the public money "foundation" for the development), perhaps it would be enough to sell 15-20 units with a prime location near to courts, etc in downtown Cleveland.

 

No they do not share the amenities.  There are separate pools (exception W Atlanta), gyms, entrances, visitor suites, etc.    There are common things, like valet, restaurants, even the property lobbies are separate.  I mention those specific properties because I've been to them.

 

As a home owner, I don't want to pay for something, the hotel guests have access too.  If I want to use the pool, I want to do so in peace.  Not when a ton of people are there.

 

I do understand your point.  But I also think the future of Cleveland needs our leaders to be pressed to think outside the box.  You cite a handful of examples of shared amenities in these types of mixed use buildings in other markets.    But this is Cleveland.  There have been condos sold for $400K plus with no pool in the Pinnacle.  Would the same demo go for a condo on the 35th floor of a high rise, with the same or better amenities, AND add a pool, that they might have to share with a convention-goer?

 

I would think there are 10-15 high-roller lawyers who would love an EXCLUSIVE condo like this (for Cleveland).  30-35 stories above the streets, across the street from the courts, walking distance to the rest of downtown. 

 

My problem with this convention hotel is that it just stinks of a typical Cleveland politically-moved project.  It's all about speed and ease.  Its about getting that wood sign posted on the site with all the politicians names listed...free political ads in all their red white and blue glory.  No one thought to make a more lasting impact.  They just want to get the hotel done and not put any effort into a bigger agenda for the future of Cleveland.

 

 

Good.  Thats why I state if this type of development was say a W hotel in the Warehouse district  I would target the 30/40 somethings and gays that love that brand.  The hotel would be in a place that has good dining, bars, lounges nearby.  The condo would be in a place that is now turning (I predict this will happen) from rental to owner occupied.  The hotel would have its own entrance tower, amenities.  The condo would have its own pool, yet the gym and Bliss spa would be on a common floor.  However, something like this in a convention property is not a worthwhile investment.

I'm skeptical that high rollers would be interested in living above a Hilton convention hotel across the street from the Justice Center. 

 

Does anyone know of any convention hotels in mid-tier cities that are mixed use?  I can't even think of any convention hotels in even big markets like NY that have a residential component.

The location has no bearing.  Living in unique space or unconventional locations is the lure of urbane living.  Its just that a condo on a CONVENTION hotel site doesn't make sense from a buyer, developer or real estate marketing position.

 

Most every condo/hotel development is a condo linked with a boutique property.  W Hotels, St. Regis, Ritz-Carlton, Fairmont, Conrad, Luxury Collection, etc., etc.

Its just that a condo on a CONVENTION hotel site doesn't make sense from a buyer, developer or real estate marketing position.

 

You sure?

 

Convention Center, Condo-Hotel Tower To Rise Near Citi Field

http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2014/01/03/convention_center_condohotel_tower_to_rise_near_citi_field.php

 

$100 million condo hotel planned for Daytona Beach

http://www.news-journalonline.com/article/20121003/NEWS/310029944

 

New Hyatt hotel opens in Skye condo tower uptown

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/10/15/4390209/new-hyatt-hotel-opens-in-skye.html#storylink=cpy

 

Brooks Tower Furnished Apartments @ 16th Street Mall-Convention Center

http://www.brookstowercondosdenver.com/

 

Duke Tower Hotel and Medstay Announce Partnership for Medical Lodging in Durham North Carolina

http://www.newswiretoday.com/news/44601/Duke-Tower-Hotel-and-Medstay-Announce-Partnership-for-Medical-Lodging-in-Durham-North-Carolina/

 

Wyndham Skyline Tower - Atlantic City

http://www.hotels.com/ho227665/wyndham-skyline-tower-atlantic-city-united-states/

 

That's the result of a 5-minute search. So there.

Is it possible for somebody to red flag this thread when somebody actually is discussing something that is being built or is going to be built so I don't keep clicking on it hoping for some news about something?

This thread is in the general discussion section, not projects/development. So you will never find development news or construction progress reports in this thread.

 

EDIT: this is where we speculate on stuff that has already happened or feel should happen, or share market-related data such as rent and occupancy trends.

Its just that a condo on a CONVENTION hotel site doesn't make sense from a buyer, developer or real estate marketing position.

 

You sure?

 

Convention Center, Condo-Hotel Tower To Rise Near Citi Field

http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2014/01/03/convention_center_condohotel_tower_to_rise_near_citi_field.php

 

$100 million condo hotel planned for Daytona Beach

http://www.news-journalonline.com/article/20121003/NEWS/310029944

 

New Hyatt hotel opens in Skye condo tower uptown

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/10/15/4390209/new-hyatt-hotel-opens-in-skye.html#storylink=cpy

 

Brooks Tower Furnished Apartments @ 16th Street Mall-Convention Center

http://www.brookstowercondosdenver.com/

 

Duke Tower Hotel and Medstay Announce Partnership for Medical Lodging in Durham North Carolina

http://www.newswiretoday.com/news/44601/Duke-Tower-Hotel-and-Medstay-Announce-Partnership-for-Medical-Lodging-in-Durham-North-Carolina/

 

Wyndham Skyline Tower - Atlantic City

http://www.hotels.com/ho227665/wyndham-skyline-tower-atlantic-city-united-states/

 

That's the result of a 5-minute search. So there.

OH KJP....tsk...tsk...tsk.  We're going to go off topic here, so be warned.

 

• That Queens project is the closest thing you have to what I think works.  However, it's more like an flats east bank project, several large projects redefining a certain areas.  In addition, this not in the CBD, like our property.
  
• Dayton Beach - I see no definite information on this project.
  
• Hyatt PLACE Charlotte -  NOT a convention sized hotel.  It's a 127 limited budget hotel, in a mixed development.  Although this isn't not a luxury property, the size and scope of the overall development is what I think works. (see my W Hotel in the WHD example above)  Not a convention sized property. 
  
• Duke Hotel - is an extended stay, similar to what we have at Ronald McDonald house. University Circle.  This is not relevant to our discussion.
  
• Wyndham Skyline Tower -  Is a vacation condo (vacation club) property.  Very similar to a time share.  This is the type of property you buy, then the property management rents your unit as a hotel room.  You are allowed to be in the unit x days a year.  This type of property is not relevant to this discussion.
  

A condo property attached to a convention oriented sized hotel, is not viable.  I could be wrong, there maybe a property out there like it.  However, most properties that I am PERSONALLY FAMILIAR with are condo/hotel developments that consist of  a condo and a boutique hotel that are attached in the common area, yet have separate entrances and amenities.

 

An example of something that may work in Cleveland with separate amenities (outside of the fitness center), is a property we've discussed on this forum.  The Westin Book Cadillac in Detroit.

 

Now you know I love you KJP, but don't try to let me have it.  So there!

 

My problem with this convention hotel is that it just stinks of a typical Cleveland politically-moved project.  It's all about speed and ease.  Its about getting that wood sign posted on the site with all the politicians names listed...free political ads in all their red white and blue glory.  No one thought to make a more lasting impact.  They just want to get the hotel done and not put any effort into a bigger agenda for the future of Cleveland.

 

Not that I wouldn't mind seeing a mixed use tower, but I think you are overselling the potential of a handful of housing units 35 floors above ground.  That's not a transformative number for Downtown or even a portion of it.  And that high up, they won't even be adding any street presence to that block.

My problem with this convention hotel is that it just stinks of a typical Cleveland politically-moved project.  It's all about speed and ease.  Its about getting that wood sign posted on the site with all the politicians names listed...free political ads in all their red white and blue glory.  No one thought to make a more lasting impact.  They just want to get the hotel done and not put any effort into a bigger agenda for the future of Cleveland.

 

Not that I wouldn't mind seeing a mixed use tower, but I think you are overselling the potential of a handful of housing units 35 floors above ground.  That's not a transformative number for Downtown or even a portion of it.  And that high up, they won't even be adding any street presence to that block.

 

But given the economic climate of new construction vs rents and sale prices in downtown Cleveland, this may very well be the only chance to do such a thing.  That alone, would make them unique and (IMO) highly marketable.

My problem with this convention hotel is that it just stinks of a typical Cleveland politically-moved project.  It's all about speed and ease.  Its about getting that wood sign posted on the site with all the politicians names listed...free political ads in all their red white and blue glory.  No one thought to make a more lasting impact.  They just want to get the hotel done and not put any effort into a bigger agenda for the future of Cleveland.

 

Not that I wouldn't mind seeing a mixed use tower, but I think you are overselling the potential of a handful of housing units 35 floors above ground.  That's not a transformative number for Downtown or even a portion of it.  And that high up, they won't even be adding any street presence to that block.

 

But given the economic climate of new construction vs rents and sale prices in downtown Cleveland, this may very well be the only chance to do such a thing.  That alone, would make them unique and (IMO) highly marketable.

That isn't enough for a sale to a new resident to the area or someone like me who lives in a white glove building to move to a hypothetical building like this.  What is in this for the buyer?

 

If this was a boutique property in the Warehouse district, Gateway, PHS, Five-Nine areas, this would be killer.

 

As is, what is unique, outside of height, for the BUYER?

 

I dont' think a few residencies 35 stories up, on that site will transform street life.

OH KJP....tsk...tsk...tsk.  We're going to go off topic here, so be warned.

 

• That Queens project is the closest thing you have to what I think works.  However, it's more like an flats east bank project, several large projects redefining a certain areas.  In addition, this not in the CBD, like our property.
  
• Dayton Beach - I see no definite information on this project.
  
• Hyatt PLACE Charlotte -  NOT a convention sized hotel.  It's a 127 limited budget hotel, in a mixed development.  Although this isn't not a luxury property, the size and scope of the overall development is what I think works. (see my W Hotel in the WHD example above)  Not a convention sized property. 
  
• Duke Hotel - is an extended stay, similar to what we have at Ronald McDonald house. University Circle.  This is not relevant to our discussion.
  
• Wyndham Skyline Tower -  Is a vacation condo (vacation club) property.  Very similar to a time share.  This is the type of property you buy, then the property management rents your unit as a hotel room.  You are allowed to be in the unit x days a year.  This type of property is not relevant to this discussion.
  

A condo property attached to a convention oriented sized hotel, is not viable.  I could be wrong, there maybe a property out there like it.  However, most properties that I am PERSONALLY FAMILIAR with are condo/hotel developments that consist of  a condo and a boutique hotel that are attached in the common area, yet have separate entrances and amenities.

 

An example of something that may work in Cleveland with separate amenities (outside of the fitness center), is a property we've discussed on this forum.  The Westin Book Cadillac in Detroit.

 

Now you know I love you KJP, but don't try to let me have it.  So there!

 

 

So isn't the lesson from my examples is that anything is possible as a mixed-use project? Perhaps you were thinking only condos that you can buy and live in for years. I was thinking of a wide range of mixed hotel-other options, mainly because I'm such an open-minded kind of guy....

OH KJP....tsk...tsk...tsk.  We're going to go off topic here, so be warned.

 

• That Queens project is the closest thing you have to what I think works.  However, it's more like an flats east bank project, several large projects redefining a certain areas.  In addition, this not in the CBD, like our property.
  
• Dayton Beach - I see no definite information on this project.
  
• Hyatt PLACE Charlotte -  NOT a convention sized hotel.  It's a 127 limited budget hotel, in a mixed development.  Although this isn't not a luxury property, the size and scope of the overall development is what I think works. (see my W Hotel in the WHD example above)  Not a convention sized property. 
  
• Duke Hotel - is an extended stay, similar to what we have at Ronald McDonald house. University Circle.  This is not relevant to our discussion.
  
• Wyndham Skyline Tower -  Is a vacation condo (vacation club) property.  Very similar to a time share.  This is the type of property you buy, then the property management rents your unit as a hotel room.  You are allowed to be in the unit x days a year.  This type of property is not relevant to this discussion.
  

A condo property attached to a convention oriented sized hotel, is not viable.  I could be wrong, there maybe a property out there like it.  However, most properties that I am PERSONALLY FAMILIAR with are condo/hotel developments that consist of  a condo and a boutique hotel that are attached in the common area, yet have separate entrances and amenities.

 

An example of something that may work in Cleveland with separate amenities (outside of the fitness center), is a property we've discussed on this forum.  The Westin Book Cadillac in Detroit.

 

Now you know I love you KJP, but don't try to let me have it.  So there!

 

 

So isn't the lesson from my examples is that anything is possible as a mixed-use project? Perhaps you were thinking only condos that you can buy and live in for years. I was thinking of a wide range of mixed hotel-other options, mainly because I'm such an open-minded kind of guy....

No I was specifically talking about a condo-hotel development, which is what clueless hypothetically suggest happens at the convention center hotel.

No I was specifically talking about a condo-hotel development, which is what clueless hypothetically suggest happens at the convention center hotel.

 

That's your fault. I was thinking more broadly, flexibly, mix-usedly.

No I was specifically talking about a condo-hotel development, which is what clueless hypothetically suggest happens at the convention center hotel.

 

That's your fault. I was thinking more broadly, flexibly, mix-usedly.

 

No dear, we were only talking about condo-hotel developments, before you decided to give your "two cents", as that relates to what we would have, not a mixed use development.  Or as my grand fater would say, "You butted in where your butt shouldn't have been in the first place!  Now take your lil butt somewhere else, because this is a conversation for grown folks!"  :P :P :P

No dear, we were only talking about condo-hotel developments, before you decided to give your "two cents", as that relates to what we would have, not a mixed use development.  Or as my grand fater would say, "You butted in where your butt shouldn't have been in the first place!  Now take your lil butt somewhere else, because this is a conversation for grown folks!"  :P :P :P

 

YOU were thinking condos. I was thinking residential. And if you tell me again to go somewhere else I will delete you.

DowntownCLE ‏@DowntownCLE  1h

#dtCLE's daytime population reached nearly 125,000 in 2013. Read more about Downtown's achievements in the past year: http://ow.ly/uXq84

DowntownCLE ‏@DowntownCLE  1h

#dtCLE's daytime population reached nearly 125,000 in 2013. Read more about Downtown's achievements in the past year: http://ow.ly/uXq84

 

"more than ever before in the city’s history"

 

How can this be true? How far back do these numbers go?

Ugh. Im only through the "executive summary" sections and theres an obscene amount of typos.

 

" $4.5 million development boom" (I hope weve had more than that...), "28.4 percent of those who work in Downtown Cleveland are also Downtown residents" (after stating that daytime pop is 125k and residential pop is 12k, those numbers dont add up. sure would be nice to have 35k people living downtown and all working there), "As Downtown Cleveland enters 2013" (a great year yes, but i hope we are not repeating it again)

 

Is this really how we are marketing ourselves? such carelessness...  :wtf:

the "more than ever before in the City's history" refers to the 12,000 residents figure, I think

Also, tangentially related, here is the link to the audio of the City Club's forum on the state of downtown:  http://www.cityclub.org/Media/Audio/CityClubPodcast-140326.mp3

I looked back at the 1930s census and there were about 18k people in the tracts that we would generally consider to be downtown (e.g., excluding flats west bank). I'm guessing the prisoner population was a lot smaller then too.  I wish that bogus factoid about today's downtown population being the highest ever would just go away.

I wonder what their methodology is.  Maybe they're just fudging the numbers

"more than ever before in the city’s history"

 

How can this be true? How far back do these numbers go?

 

To the beginning. Historically, downtown wasn't a population center. It was a commercial center. When it did have residences, they were very low density. Most downtown streets went straight from single-family homes to commercial structures, and many of them quite large.

 

This is Euclid Avenue at East 9th in 1870....

 

 

 

This is Euclid Avenue at East 9th just 40 years later in 1910 (note a house or two in the background, next to the new Halle's department store.

I wonder what their methodology is.  Maybe they're just fudging the numbers

 

I think their methodology is "I've heard people say this so many times that it must be true."

 

In case anyone want to look directly at the data, you can see historical census records here: http://www.census.gov/prod/www/decennial.html#pop

I can't remember now how it's organized in older years, but you can eventually find the tract tables and a tract map.

 

It's possible my eyeballing was slightly off, but I think I was fairly conservative- I did this a couple years ago. Generally speaking, there used to be thousands of residents around CSU (we've seen the old photos), in the highway interchange just south of Gateway, and in the northeastern quadrant of downtown, in the Erieview area and just east of it.  It's probably true that the population is higher today in the center of the CBD (between West 9th and East 12th), but that's a pretty narrow meaning of "downtown" that isn't consistent with the rest of the document.

 

This is what I counted for the tracts that seems to be entirely within today's downtown (including the highway interchange):

1930: 17,886

1940: 14,642

1950: 15,845

1960: 8,592

 

The 1950s (partly highway clearance I think) were especially brutal for downtown residences, but the population was already declining. Erieview demo (early 1960s) also took a big bite out of what was left.

 

 

Ugh. Im only through the "executive summary" sections and theres an obscene amount of typos.

 

" $4.5 million development boom" (I hope weve had more than that...), "28.4 percent of those who work in Downtown Cleveland are also Downtown residents" (after stating that daytime pop is 125k and residential pop is 12k, those numbers dont add up. sure would be nice to have 35k people living downtown and all working there), "As Downtown Cleveland enters 2013" (a great year yes, but i hope we are not repeating it again)

 

Is this really how we are marketing ourselves? such carelessness...  :wtf:

 

Maybe "daytime pop" includes visitors and other people who wouldn't count towards the workforce numbers?  That could explain some of the disparity, but it would still seem to be off... significantly.  There has to be more than 40,000 workers.  Maybe they meant to say 8.4%?  That would seem about right.

It also includes students.