What would be your guys guess on what building will be turned into apartments next? Bruer is on the top of my list for guesses.

 

Wish list or expectation list? Bruer is at the top of my wish list. As for expectation, the John Hartness Brown Buildings, 1001-1101 Euclid Ave., which is currently planned for conversion into a hotel.

Apartments might very well be option B for Bruer, Truman, Schofield, City Club, Huntington.... whichever loses the race to fill the new hospitality demands post CC/MM and Casino(s)

 

City Club?  I know Cleveland Athletic Club is on that list, but is the City Club bldg largely vacant too?

One thing mentioned in the video from the "Parallels with Philadelphia" thread is that Philly got some office towers converted.  We're starting to see a lot of those standing empty on E9th St and they all have killer views.  Breuer plus two on Superior, the Key Bank building and the one across 9th from it.  Empty or almost empty.  Any one of them would be a game changer.  And those mid-late-century towers are probably easier to convert than older buildings like the CAC.

Apartments might very well be option B for Bruer, Truman, Schofield, City Club, Huntington.... whichever loses the race to fill the new hospitality demands post CC/MM and Casino(s)

 

City Club?  I know Cleveland Athletic Club is on that list, but is the City Club bldg largely vacant too?

 

Yeah.  I meant the CAC.

Just wondering, since demand is growing, is there any chance that the section 8 buildings downtown could possibly be converted into market rate units? These buildings seem like they would be a cheaper conversion since they already serve a residential function. Is there any possibility for this or is it pretty unrealistic?

Which buildings downtown are Section 8?

I'm not sure if all of these buildings were converted using the Low-Income Housing Tax Credit.  But there's a good chance.  Any buildings redeveloped this way are subject to a 15-year compliance period.  I'm pretty sure Carter Manor is one such property, and probably the Allerton, since it recently underwent renovation.  Most also probably have HUD HAP contracts, which are project based section 8 contracts, that can run up to 20 years.

and not only that most of these properties are cash cows for property owners, making acquistion for them improbable, and their appetite to sell low.

and not only that most of these properties are cash cows for property owners, making acquistion for them improbable, and their appetite to sell low.

 

Could they not make more money going market rate? Or how exactly does that work? Or would the renovations into market rate units take too long for the owners to recoup the costs?

What about the Bohn tower, and other more recent buildings near 13th?  Those probably haven't undergone HUD renovations like the Allerton. 

^But they may still have Section 8 contracts with HUD, and they remain lucrative, like McCleveland said.  ^^ClevelandOhio, you make the same amount renting Section 8 as you theoretically would for market rate.  HUD makes up the difference between what the tenant can pay and a predetermined "market rate".  I work for a developer and manager of affordable housing.  Our properties are practically never under 90% occupied.  If you can get a HAP contract, there is very little incentive to switch it to market rate.

^But they may still have Section 8 contracts with HUD, and they remain lucrative, like McCleveland said.  ^^ClevelandOhio, you make the same amount renting Section 8 as you theoretically would for market rate.  HUD makes up the difference between what the tenant can pay and a predetermined "market rate".  I work for a developer and manager of affordable housing.  Our properties are practically never under 90% occupied.  If you can get a HAP contract, there is very little incentive to switch it to market rate.

 

Thanks for the information. Now if downtowns rents go up, will HUD become more resistent in paying the difference, and not give a HAP contract to new buildings interested. Could an HAP contract not be renewed after it runs up?

^But they may still have Section 8 contracts with HUD, and they remain lucrative, like McCleveland said.  ^^ClevelandOhio, you make the same amount renting Section 8 as you theoretically would for market rate.  HUD makes up the difference between what the tenant can pay and a predetermined "market rate".  I work for a developer and manager of affordable housing.  Our properties are practically never under 90% occupied.  If you can get a HAP contract, there is very little incentive to switch it to market rate.

 

I had thought that HUD has only (mostly?) been doing short-term contracts for project-based Section 8 for the past few years.  I believe that Carter Manor and Allerton were both renewed recently, so I don't know if they're still bound by long term contracts.  I could be wrong though.  Even if not bound by their HAP contracts, they could be obligated by financing arrangements to seek renewal. 

 

Also, aren't the "market rates" determined on a regional level? So, theoretically, if the market rent downtown exceeded the regional market rent by a sufficiently large margin, exiting the program could still make sense.  I know "expiring uses" in NYC is a very big issue as rents have risen over the years.  HUD offers a "mark-up to market" renewal option, but I have no idea how well used it is. 

Short term contracts (1-5 years) are often the case with contract renewals.  I believe, generally, when there is an ownership change or the project goes through tax credits, a 20-year contract is the norm.  If Carter Manor and the Allerton went through tax credits, there will be a 15-year compliance period regardless of contract status.  The market rates are determined generally by MSA.  The 2011 FMR for Cleveland for a two bedroom is $720.  I'm not entirely sure how that compares with the realities downtown.  It's hard to argue with the almost guaranteed occupancy that section 8 affords, though.

^Thanks for the good info.  Are you positive those renovations involved LIHTCs?  I don't know otherwise, I was just curious.  I'm pretty sure market rates downtown are much higher than $720 for a 2 BR, and occupancy rates are close to 100% too, but that's not guaranteed to continue.  I'd also guess management costs for market rate buildings are lower too.  In any case, I agree it's unlikely these buildings will exit Section 8 anytime soon, but certainly the higher market rants downtown go, the better the chance it will happen someday.

Great info.  I'm still curious if those other buildings near the Allerton might be on shorter contracts, or if being CMHA changes anything at all.  Because yeah, $720 is really low for a 2BR in the downtown market, you can probably get that for a 1BR.  I'm thinking if those high rises could go market rate, it would really help spur development in that area.

I couldn't find anything on the Allerton (Parkview Apartments) but Carter Manor received a LIHTC allocation in 2004.  There is a thread on Parkview, but I didn't see anything about financing, just a lot of complaints about how the mayor should have turned it into 34 mansions.

^Thanks.  I think info about the Section 8 contracts is actually not too hard to find if anyone want to look. HUD maintains this database, for instance: http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/program_offices/housing/mfh/exp/mfhdiscl

 

But the LIHTC restrictions would trump anyway, so looks like Carter Manor is income-restricted for at least another decade (I think the renovation was completed in 2006).

 

Great info.  I'm still curious if those other buildings near the Allerton might be on shorter contracts, or if being CMHA changes anything at all. 

 

Do you mean Bohn Tower?  That one actually belongs to CMHA, so that wouldn't go market rate unless they sold the tower, which seems unlikely.

yes $720 is low for downtown 2br market rate rentals, typically in the $1000-1200+ range... but not low enough to justify the reconfiguration and construction upgrades that would need to be made to convert them to market rate. not even close... but certainly, if the upward trend in downtown rental rates continues... at some point it just may make sense.

Channel 3 news just did a very cool story highlighting 668 Euclid. According to their story the waiting list for the building is at 400 people  :-o

 

I doubt the number is actually that high, but still....DAMN!!!

Channel 3 news just did a very cool story highlighting 668 Euclid. According to their story the waiting list for the building is at 400 people  :-o

 

I doubt the number is actually that high, but still....DAMN!!!

As popular as that building is, I wouldn't think that number would be far off.

I heard today that 1 bedrooms at The Bingham are now over $1000 a month at the minimum and that the new owner has done a lot of renovations to the place. I heard they repainted the whole place and I know they added new lights outside the building. If that number is correct that is a great thing for downtown. If they can sell that high it means that the demand is definitely getting up there.

From: http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/16543565/1717-East-9th-St-Cleveland-OH/

 

Auction 3/4: 346,500 sqft High-Rise Office

1717 East 9th St, Cleveland, OH 44114

 

 

Price:N/A

Building Size:346,500 SF

Property Type:Office

Property Sub-type:Office Building

Property Use Type:Vacant/Owner-User

Auction:Yes

No. Stories:21

Building Class:A

Year Built:1958

 

Description

 

REDC and Jones Lang LaSalle are proud to auction this vacant 21-story office tower that contains approximately 346,500 square feet of office, retail and storage space, and an attached 7-story, 545-stall parking garage. Designed by Emery Roth & Sons and completed in 1959, 1717 East 9th Street became the headquarters for the East Ohio Gas Company and was known as the East Ohio Building until 2004.

 

It is an ideal candidate for large users to purchase or lease. The building's efficient floor plates are also well suited to small and mid-sized tenants, making multi-tenancy an attractive option. The building is also a strong candidate for conversion to hotel and/or residential uses.

 

The Property' s large parking garage offers a parking ratio of 1.6 spaces per 1,000 square feet, one of the highest garage parking ratios of any office building in downtown Cleveland. The deck serves parking needs for several of the surrounding buildings and reflects the strong overall location.

 

The property is situated in the heart of Cleveland' s financial district. Located at the Southeast corner of Superior Avenue and East 9th Street, the Property offers convenient access to most of the significant destinations in the central business district. Just one block east of the Property, along East 12th Street is The Avenue District, a recently developed residential community which includes for lease and sale units, along with unique retail boutiques and coffee shops. The Property is within three blocks of the East 4th neighborhood, a vibrant mixed-use entertainment district with over 220 apartments.

 

__________________________________________

 

KJP: Looks likes 1717 E. 9TH STREET, LLC retained ownership of the building, per county auditor records. The parent company is Sovereign Partners 38 E 57 ST, NEW YORK, NY 10022.

I love that somethings being done with the building and putting residential (apartments) there is great.

 

I, personally, would prefer a hotel, with the convention center coming on board and condo loan approval still tight.

 

Is something actually planned for the East Ohio Building?  All I get from KJP's post is that the owners want to sell it, perphaps by auction, and are marketing it as possible housing.  I am starting to get nervous about this intersection with the problems across the street at Key, as well as Eaton abandoning their building shortly just a block away.

Is something actually planned for the East Ohio Building?  All I get from KJP's post is that the owners want to sell it, perphaps by auction, and are marketing it as possible housing.  I am starting to get nervous about this intersection with the problems across the street at Key, as well as Eaton abandoning their building shortly just a block away.

 

I'm not worried, the convention center will help "sell" those properties.  As they are ripe for conversion into either residential housing or hotel

Is something actually planned for the East Ohio Building?  All I get from KJP's post is that the owners want to sell it, perphaps by auction, and are marketing it as possible housing.  I am starting to get nervous about this intersection with the problems across the street at Key, as well as Eaton abandoning their building shortly just a block away.

 

Correct. All I was doing was posting the physical description of that building. While I'm hopeful the owners will do something positive with the building, nothing has been proposed yet.

I don't foresee it becoming a hotel.  There are already numerous developers trying to build hotels downtown especially on Euclid street.  Residential would certainly be interesting since I don't know of many modernist skyscrapers being converted into residential.  If it happens it certainly would be a good demonstration project since I foresee many modernist skyscrapers vacating in the near-term future.

I don't foresee it becoming a hotel.  There are already numerous developers trying to build hotels downtown especially on Euclid street.  Residential would certainly be interesting since I don't know of many modernist skyscrapers being converted into residential.  If it happens it certainly would be a good demonstration project since I foresee many modernist skyscrapers vacating in the near-term future.

 

Two hotels opening on Euclid and the The crown plaza reflag as a Westin is not numerous considering we still do not have a convention size hotel or a hip hotel.

 

What is our list of proposed hotels?

Let's stay focused on residential here. I moved the hotel discussion to:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,11531.0.html

 

Residential would certainly be interesting since I don't know of many modernist skyscrapers being converted into residential.  If it happens it certainly would be a good demonstration project since I foresee many modernist skyscrapers vacating in the near-term future.

 

Farther up the page, MayDay posted a picture of the Bank One Building in Fort Worth, Texas that was converted to residential.

Check out the other building below that are for sale...I had no idea (even more residential conversion opportunities).

 

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/16543565/1717-East-9th-St-Cleveland-OH/

Im in the process of making a map of all Downtown Residencies. Here is what I have so far.

 

Zooming in makes it better and you can click on a building to see how many units it has.

 

http://tinyurl.com/DowntownCleveland

Also map is same key as my other map posted in the Cleveland Random Development thread.

 

Blue is the extent of the Ameritrust Complex

Red is Section 8

Green are other current/underway/kindofhappening projects with possible residential aspects.

[glow=red,2,300]Yellow are current residential buildings.[/glow]

very nice map!

Im in the process of making a map of all Downtown Residencies. Here is what I have so far.

 

Zooming in makes it better and you can click on a building to see how many units it has.

 

http://tinyurl.com/DowntownCleveland

Also map is same key as my other map posted in the Cleveland Random Development thread.

 

Blue is the extent of the Ameritrust Complex

Red is Section 8

Green are other current/underway/kindofhappening projects with possible residential aspects.

[glow=red,2,300]Yellow are current residential buildings.[/glow]

 

The Avenue district  - it appears you didn't count the townhouses.  Nor are they noted on the map.

C.O., that is a sweet map!!! Carter Manor is the only Section 8 building downtown?

C.O., that is a sweet map!!! Carter Manor is the only Section 8 building downtown?

not to my knowledge.  there is one on 13 IIRC

1802 E. 13th, the devils own

C.O., that is a sweet map!!! Carter Manor is the only Section 8 building downtown?

 

Thanks! and no, im still in the process of finishing it.

Great map!  One more to add: the Bohn tower at the SE corner of 13th and Superior, which is CMHA senior housing.

Thanks guys. Ive added The Allerton and Bohn tower. I also sorted the list on the side from most to least units. Any other input is appreciated!

Wow, that was a lot of effort!

 

I noticed a couple of omissions - Avenue District townhomes (E. 14/Lindazzo), Riverbend Condominiums (West 10th/Superior)

 

Edited to add: Milton Manor apartments, 2344 Prospect - http://www.miltonmanor.net/miltonmanorpage.html

While you're tweaking the map, it would be great if you change the building color code to be different from the street color.  (Everyone is a critic.) Very nice job; interesting to study. 

Great map!  I have a few additions:

 

The building containing Gillespie's Map Room is housing on the upper stories.

 

Are you including permanent supportive housing or shelters?  If so 1850 Superior, The Harbor Lights Building (Salvation Army), the converted old hotel on Superior between East 13th and East 17th, and some homeless shelters (I don't know the addresses) should be considered. 

 

There is also some more public housing at the SE corner of East 13th and Superior.  I don't know the complex's name.

 

There is also a smattering of single family houses in the East 23rd/24th St area north of Superior.

^The homeless shelter I believe is 2200 Lakeside

^^1850 Superior is 44 units of subsidized apartment housing http://www.famicos.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=55

 

1550 Superior is the old North Point Inn - now houses 160 units of "transitional housing"

 

Other homeless and transitional units (with bed capacities) can be found at:

http://ohs.cuyahogacounty.us/en-US/transitional-housing.aspx

http://ohs.cuyahogacounty.us/en-US/emergency-shelters.aspx

http://ohs.cuyahogacounty.us/en-US/permanent-housing.aspx

Im in the process of making a map of all Downtown Residencies. Here is what I have so far.

 

Zooming in makes it better and you can click on a building to see how many units it has.

 

http://tinyurl.com/DowntownCleveland

Also map is same key as my other map posted in the Cleveland Random Development thread.

 

Blue is the extent of the Ameritrust Complex

Red is Section 8

Green are other current/underway/kindofhappening projects with possible residential aspects.

[glow=red,2,300]Yellow are current residential buildings.[/glow]

 

The Avenue district  - it appears you didn't count the townhouses.  Nor are they noted on the map.

 

I'm hurt that you ignored my part of the 'hood, ClevelandOhio ;).  There are currently 20 townhomes.

 

There is a residential building spanning between Superior and Rockwell on the west side of E. 13th as someone mentioned.  It is mostly seniors, and I believe it is called St. Clair Place.  I would assume it's subsidized, but I've never really been able to find much info about it.

According to this site (http://section-8-housing.findthebest.com/detail/7251/St-Clair-Place), St Clair Place has 200 apartment units. 199 are "assisted" and I guess the other is the resident manager.

Thanks everyone! And im not super concerned with getting all the homeless shelters and public housing building.

 

Great map!  I have a few additions:

 

The building containing Gillespie's Map Room is housing on the upper stories.

 

 

Do you know the name of the building and how many units?

ClevelandOhio,

 

The address is 1281 W 9th St . The building doesn't have a specific name. The owner of Gillespie's has an apt. for himself on the top floor and there are two other rentable units in the building.

ClevelandOhio, this is so so so cool, thank you so much. Since Google maps got rid of there real estate thingie, I really had no easy way to find this info, plus this is much more comprehensive and accurate.

 

Oh and I am pretty sure the building to the immediate west of Walker weeks on Prospect is apartments, street view said its called Milton manor. A friend of mine who lived at Walker weeks knew someone who lived there, said it was a flea bag, but apartments nonetheless.

 

And yet another edit. When me and a friend were looking for possible apartments North of CSU I spotted this place called Superior apartments I had seen on goolge maps right across from Tower Press on 19th. I thought the building looked cool. We buzzed in saying we were looking for apartments to rent, and as we walked into the building, the first thing I thought was, this place looks institutional. We walked up to a woman in white behind a glass window who informed us that "first of all we are full, and second of all this is a mental institution" (well something of that sort, mental institution, maybe some sort of halfway house, there were some comotose looking people siting outside.) Needless to say we thanked her and hightailed it out of there.

 

Its not apartments, but people do stay there, is it section 8 esque? Obviously its a health instituiton but people seem to stay there. idk