9 hours ago, ColDayMan said:

Republicans Want Chaplains in Ohio’s Public Schools

 

State Rep. Reggie Stoltzfus, R-Paris Township, has filed legislation proposing to allow Ohio’s public school districts to employ chaplains. The proposal comes after Texas lawmakers approved a similar measure over the objections of civil rights groups, academics and even some chaplains themselves.

 

Can they do that?

 

Stoltzfus’ measure would allow districts to hire chaplains or accept volunteers. Regardless of their status, however, potential chaplains must go through a background check. The bill insists chaplains, “may be offered in addition to, but not in lieu of, school counselor services.”

 

The proposal also states chaplains aren’t subject to state licensing or certification.

 

It’s unclear whether the Stoltzfus’ idea would withstand a court challenge. But in recent years the U.S. Supreme Court has been proven more receptive to religion in schools.

 

The First Amendment’s Establishment Clause is the basis of the separation of church and state doctrine. While some evangelicals and conservatives reject that idea because the phrase “separation of church and state” doesn’t appear in the Constitution verbatim, a string of court cases have reinforced the division.

 

More below:

https://columbusunderground.com/republicans-want-chaplains-in-ohios-public-schools-ocj1/

I doubt this will go anywhere. Most districts do not have the money for this which would stop it pretty much from the start. Given that the military has chaplains, I think it would not be unreasonable to presume a public school could not employ one if it is handled in the appropriate manner. Just having a chaplain on campus in an office full time to serve as a counselor to students who CHOOSE to seek him/her out is not necessarily a bad thing and would be perfectly reasonable. Having the school chaplain lead an invocation at graduation or speak to the school football tam before the game is probably ok too since that is being done anyway. However, if you expand the role to having the chaplain lead a daily prayer at school or even take an active role at most all school events could be very troublesome. If it is like the school counselor or nurse, where they are available to students who may want them, then I think it would be ok. However, I doubt most schools would want to pay for such a thing. 

1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

I doubt this will go anywhere. Most districts do not have the money for this which would stop it pretty much from the start. Given that the military has chaplains, I think it would not be unreasonable to presume a public school could not employ one if it is handled in the appropriate manner. Just having a chaplain on campus in an office full time to serve as a counselor to students who CHOOSE to seek him/her out is not necessarily a bad thing and would be perfectly reasonable. Having the school chaplain lead an invocation at graduation or speak to the school football tam before the game is probably ok too since that is being done anyway. However, if you expand the role to having the chaplain lead a daily prayer at school or even take an active role at most all school events could be very troublesome. If it is like the school counselor or nurse, where they are available to students who may want them, then I think it would be ok. However, I doubt most schools would want to pay for such a thing. 

I don't think it's that simple. While there may be a narrow lane for public schools to do something like this within the bounds of the constitution. I think they would have a hard time making sure they aren't favoring one religion over another.

 

If they are using volunteers, do they have to accept every volunteer who passes the background check? How large of a religion does it need to be? Church of Satan? Westboro Baptist Church? Lots of questions. If they are paying the chaplain how does which religion get selected? They can't be expected to pay for multiple. If every school district goes with the most popular they'd all be Christian, that could look like the state expressing a preference for Christianity. This is full of constitutional land mines. 

Oh FFS Ohio, are you serious?

They'll probably be from megachurch or nondenominational Appalachia church since that's who has all the power in this gerrymandered state.

Can we propose legislation requiring FBI sex crime task force members to be posted in every church?

3 hours ago, Ethan said:

I don't think it's that simple. While there may be a narrow lane for public schools to do something like this within the bounds of the constitution. I think they would have a hard time making sure they aren't favoring one religion over another.

I do not disagree with you. It certainly would present complications in that regard. 

 

Certainly, there are logistics that would need to be worked through to accomodate such a thing but like a minister giving a prayer at graduation, or the football coach praying before the football game, I do not think the denomination matters so much as if the understanding is that the students would need to opt in to the spirituality part of the ministry vs opt out. 

 

The challenge would be if you have a diverse school district, do you need to offer an Iman for Muslim students, Rabbi for the Jewish students, priest for the Catholics and minister for the other Christians? That certainly would be a challenge for some districts but obviously this is what happens in the military (to a reasonable degree of availability). 

I think if something like this happens, you wont see it in urban districts and probably very few suburban districts. It would be the rural districts that are not very diverse that would use this rule. Let's face it, you would not be getting more diverse in those districts and likely to face little resistance. 

 

3 hours ago, Ethan said:

If they are using volunteers, do they have to accept every volunteer who passes the background check?

That is more of an administrative point that the school district can determine on an individual basis as long as they show that the restrictions would not favor or disfavor any particular religion. 

 

There are certainly a lot of land mines to navigate with such a rule and personally, I think it is unnecessary, but at the same time, I think there are numerous precedents to create a program that would work and pass constitutional muster at the same time. 

I'm going to copy-and-paste something I posted in the American Education Policy and Reform thread (

 ) about the Texas law mentioned as the inspiration for this Ohio law mentioned in the CU article.

  

On 5/23/2023 at 2:04 PM, Gramarye said:

 

So I checked the bill text itself, always a good idea when you read a hot take from a view-hungry media outlet, and it doesn't say Christian: https://lrl.texas.gov/scanned/88ccrs/sb0763.pdf.

 

I'm sure that this might even surprise some of the conservative Christians advancing this bill, but chaplain is a nonsectarian term.  The Army has an entire corps of chaplains; its first Buddhist chaplain was sworn in in 2004.

 

It also says that districts may employ or take on such an individual as a volunteer, so school boards could simply shrug this off and take no action at all.  If they wanted, they could probably even employ a Scientologist chaplain, and they'd answer only to the voters, not the courts.

 

Harvard University actually has an atheist chaplain, a graduate of Harvard's own divinity school: https://theweek.com/life/religion/1004181/harvards-new-chaplain-is-an-atheist-is-that-a-contradiction.

 

So yes, even some of you on these fine boards could be volunteer atheist chaplains for your local public school district.

3 hours ago, Ineffable_Matt said:

Can we propose legislation requiring FBI sex crime task force members to be posted in every church?

 

"Church: Where Grooming Really Happens"

9 hours ago, Ethan said:

I don't think it's that simple. While there may be a narrow lane for public schools to do something like this within the bounds of the constitution. I think they would have a hard time making sure they aren't favoring one religion over another.

 

If they are using volunteers, do they have to accept every volunteer who passes the background check? How large of a religion does it need to be? Church of Satan? Westboro Baptist Church? Lots of questions. If they are paying the chaplain how does which religion get selected? They can't be expected to pay for multiple. If every school district goes with the most popular they'd all be Christian, that could look like the state expressing a preference for Christianity. This is full of constitutional land mines. 

 

As if there will be a single other religion represented other than Christianity. Let's get serious. There is no question about any of that. This is yet another move by the Evangelical type to push a specific brand of religion in public schools on the public dime. 

5 hours ago, Gramarye said:

I'm going to copy-and-paste something I posted in the American Education Policy and Reform thread (

 ) about the Texas law mentioned as the inspiration for this Ohio law mentioned in the CU article.

  

 

Harvard University actually has an atheist chaplain, a graduate of Harvard's own divinity school: https://theweek.com/life/religion/1004181/harvards-new-chaplain-is-an-atheist-is-that-a-contradiction.

 

So yes, even some of you on these fine boards could be volunteer atheist chaplains for your local public school district.

 

You can't honestly believe that we're going to be seeing Buddhist, Muslim, Satanist and other religious "chaplains" in schools, right? No one proposing these laws has anything other than Christian in mind regardless whether they specifically spell it out. The only reason they're not specifying it is an attempt to lessen the obvious controversy that comes with it. An attempt to seem fair and non-partisan, and yet when it comes to actual execution, one religion will conveniently always be at the top. 

Edited September 6, 20231 yr by jonoh81

Military chaplains go through job-specific training, which goes beyond just being a minister within their chosen faith. They are required to be counselors to their unit, regardless of someone's faith, as the units they are in do not have a traditional counselor. Any comparison to them on this issue sounds like a false equivalency to me.

4 minutes ago, Dev said:

Military chaplains go through job-specific training, which goes beyond just being a minister within their chosen faith. They are required to be counselors to their unit, regardless of someone's faith, as the units they are in do not have a traditional counselor. Any comparison to them on this issue sounds like a false equivalency to me.

 

Does the bill say anything about the expectations of a school chaplain to provide counseling or other services to students or staff outside the chaplain's own faith?  For that matter, does the equivalent statute for the military (or the various branches, if it's different for each), or is that set down later in regulations or guidance somewhere?

 

I wasn't making a complete parallel or comparative law analysis between military chaplains and still-hypothetical school chaplains.  I don't have enough information to do that and I doubt you do, either.  The only point I was making was that "chaplain" is legally a nonsectarian term, for the benefit of anyone immediately reflexively thinking that this is some kind of open-and-shut Establishment Clause violation.

https://nypost.com/2023/09/08/teachers-union-chief-calls-private-schools-fascist-yet-sends-her-son-to-one/

 

8 hours ago, Lazarus said:

https://nypost.com/2023/09/08/teachers-union-chief-calls-private-schools-fascist-yet-sends-her-son-to-one/

 

well... um.... you know... private schools are fascist but my son's private school is the only one that isn't. They have nice kids there, and good families........ I would send him to public school but you see, as your union leader, I work lots of loooong hours to support the children and teachers in our district and with our schedule and such, it just makes more sense in this one instance that my son goes to a private school, but it is a sacrifice I make in order to better serve the needs of the community and the children at the schools that our teachers represent. If anything, I as your Union leader am putting the needs of my own children secondary to the children of this district...

 

 

3 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

well... um.... you know... private schools are fascist but my son's private school is the only one that isn't. They have nice kids there, and good families........ I would send him to public school but you see, as your union leader, I work lots of loooong hours to support the children and teachers in our district and with our schedule and such, it just makes more sense in this one instance that my son goes to a private school, but it is a sacrifice I make in order to better serve the needs of the community and the children at the schools that our teachers represent. If anything, I as your Union leader am putting the needs of my own children secondary to the children of this district...

 

 

See, conservatives really do know what a hypocrite is. They just pretend not to when it concerns themselves.

3 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

well... um.... you know... private schools are fascist but my son's private school is the only one that isn't. They have nice kids there, and good families........ I would send him to public school but you see, as your union leader, I work lots of loooong hours to support the children and teachers in our district and with our schedule and such, it just makes more sense in this one instance that my son goes to a private school, but it is a sacrifice I make in order to better serve the needs of the community and the children at the schools that our teachers represent. If anything, I as your Union leader am putting the needs of my own children secondary to the children of this district...

 

 

 

 

When I was a kid, there was a teacher at Colerain Middle School who led a Northwest School District tax levy campaign.  He lived in a neighborhood with an HOA and attracted publicity by putting campaign signs in his yard, in violation of HOA policy.  He then ran to the local press and painted himself as a victim of the HOA, taking advantage of the public's limited knowledge of the then-new phenomenon of the HOA. 

 

The kicker?  Soon after he sent his sons to a Catholic high school, despite not being Catholic.   

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

When I was a kid, there was a teacher at Colerain Middle School who led a Northwest School District tax levy campaign.  He lived in a neighborhood with an HOA and attracted publicity by putting campaign signs in his yard, in violation of HOA policy.  He then ran to the local press and painted himself as a victim of the HOA, taking advantage of the public's limited knowledge of the then-new phenomenon of the HOA. 

 

The kicker?  Soon after he sent his sons to a Catholic high school, despite not being Catholic.  

I don't know how much of a kicker that is -- lots of people who send their kids to private schools nonetheless support school levies to fund public schools. 

 

16 minutes ago, Foraker said:

I don't know how much of a kicker that is -- lots of people who send their kids to private schools nonetheless support school levies to fund public schools. 

 

 

A public school teacher who was the face of the school levy campaign...didn't send his own sons to the school district he worked and advocated for. 

 

Everyone must "support" the public schools.  If you refuse to pay property tax, you will lose your house.  If you rent, your rent pays the landlord's property tax. 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Lazarus said:

 

A public school teacher who was the face of the school levy campaign...didn't send his own sons to the school district he worked and advocated for. 

 

Everyone must "support" the public schools.  If you refuse to pay property tax, you will lose your house.  If you rent, your rent pays the landlord's property tax. 

 

 

 

 

Paying taxes is required, yes, but the point was that he supported the levies.

2 hours ago, Lazarus said:

A public school teacher who was the face of the school levy campaign...didn't send his own sons to the school district he worked and advocated for.

I don't understand the point or points you're trying to make.  Public school teachers could send their kids to other schools for a lot of reasons that have no bearing on the quality of education at the teachers' school -- not wanting to have your kids in your class, kids having special needs, special courses or sports opportunities not available at the teachers' school, a desire for religious education not available in public schools, and probably a lot more that I'm unaware of.  And a public school teacher could agree to be the "face" of a school levy campaign for reasons other than mere self-interest in retaining their job or wanting a raise -- they could be really proud of the schools and happy to let the community know it.  You can think that a public school is awesome and want to support it and also think that another school would be the best for your kid.

 

I, for example, think that the University of Michigan is a great school, second only to Ohio State in the midwest!  😉😁

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Foraker said:

, for example, think that the University of Michigan is a great school, second only to Ohio State in the midwest!  😉😁

You would be wrong on that one. I question the judgement and common sense of those who would willingly choose to go to the University of Michigan. But you are right that it does not hold a candle to Ohio State

19 hours ago, TheCOV said:

See, conservatives really do know what a hypocrite is. They just pretend not to when it concerns themselves.

There is nothing wrong with her sending her kid to private school. That does not make her a hypocrite. It is wrong for her to call private schools fascist (which also shows that she does not even understand the meaning of fascist, but it is just a cool word for progressives to throw around right now so she uses it). Support her union and support her schools. She does not need to demean those who do not share her opinion or even bring private schools into the discussion between her union and public school district. 

17 hours ago, Foraker said:

I don't understand the point or points you're trying to make.  Public school teachers could send their kids to other schools for a lot of reasons that have no bearing on the quality of education at the teachers' school -- not wanting to have your kids in your class, kids having special needs, special courses or sports opportunities not available at the teachers' school, a desire for religious education not available in public schools, and probably a lot more that I'm unaware of.

 

Or they don't pay you enough as a public schoolteacher to be able to live in the best public school districts. 😑

1 minute ago, Gramarye said:

 

Or they don't pay you enough as a public schoolteacher to be able to live in the best public school districts. 😑

 

Which again brings us back to the fact that the test scores used to rank public school districts reflect students' family income more than quality of teaching -- thank you!  😐

18 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

 

Or they don't pay you enough as a public schoolteacher to be able to live in the best public school districts. 😑

 

In 99% of the country, it's a 5-10 minute drive from any region's best public school to its worst.  One of Cincinnati's worst public high schools, Withrow, is in its wealthiest neighborhood (Hyde Park).  Its best public high school, Walnut Hills, is in a terrible area.  

 

The only areas of the United States where affordable housing might be more than a 30-minute drive from a good public school are Beverly Hills and Silicon Valley. 

 

 

 

18 minutes ago, Foraker said:

 

Which again brings us back to the fact that the test scores used to rank public school districts reflect students' family income

 

It's not "income".  It's what happens in the house.  Do parents read to children (are there even any books in the house)?  Do parents encourage their kids' curiosity? 

17 hours ago, Foraker said:

 You can think that a public school is awesome and want to support it and also think that another school would be the best for your kid.

 

 

 

When my dad was on our area's school board, despite sending his kids to Catholic Schools, we received threatening phone calls and answering machine messages.  Our house was egged and my mom's tires were slashed.  I remember the bus driver giving me letters written by other bus drivers to give to my dad. 

 

It's crazy.  Facts didn't matter then and they don't matter now. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shout out to @Lazarusfor reminding us all why having actual, rational stakeholders elected to local school boards is important. 

Edited September 11, 20231 yr by Gordon Bombay
Wrong tag.

On 9/11/2023 at 10:53 AM, Lazarus said:

It's not "income".  It's what happens in the house.  Do parents read to children (are there even any books in the house)?  Do parents encourage their kids' curiosity? 

Since "income" is what was studied, I'm guessing that there is a strong correlation.  If both of your parents are working two jobs, when do you have time to read to your kids?

 

I haven't seen any studies that showed that test scores correlated to "parents who encouraged their children's curiosity," but it sounds like a good thing to do.

30 minutes ago, Foraker said:

Since "income" is what was studied, I'm guessing that there is a strong correlation.  If both of your parents are working two jobs, when do you have time to read to your kids?

 

I haven't seen any studies that showed that test scores correlated to "parents who encouraged their children's curiosity," but it sounds like a good thing to do.

 

Wouldn't this work against the correlation?  A stay-at-home parent reduces the household income (with the qualifications about lifestyle affordability that @Brutus_buckeye added on the other thread, citing Elizabeth Warren) but does allow more time to read to the kids.  We do find time to read to our kids in our two-income household, but it's still fair to say that it's a stretch and can delay bedtime.  And that's in ideal circumstances.  My wife is out of state for a business trip today, so all the kids get dragged with me to the soccer practice of the one who has soccer practice tonight, then we get home at maybe 7:45 and need to get dinner.

 

I know one couple with a very modest income but two educated, involved, married parents with a single blue-collar working father and a SAHM who lives on the south side of Akron, in a rougher neighborhood.  Their kids would be good candidates to break that income-test score curve.  I think they would be prime EdChoice candidates to come to my kids' school.  The kicker, though: they wouldn't actually be fulfilling the policy goal of EdChoice, i.e., to allow poorer kids an escape from failing public school districts.  They homeschool.

 

I'm not necessarily a professional at survey design, but in terms of things you might do to measure "parents who encourage their child's curiosity," you could make at least a starting case study out of that couple.  The mom is constantly taking her kids to the children's learning programs at the Akron-Summit County Public Library (which has a fantastic array of family-friendly reading programming, and also a great deal more than just books) and the Akron Art Museum (free admission on Thursdays).  Another at least partial proxy, this one a negative indicator: How much screen time do the kids get in a typical day/week?

Not Ohio, but germane to the conversation:

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/at-13-baltimore-city-high-schools-zero-students-tested-proficient-on-2023-state-math-exam

 

In related news, I by total chance talked to a guy earlier this week who was expelled from a Catholic high school in Cincinnati.  Why?  For jokingly complaining to a female teacher that she didn't "love" him.  The way he explained it, I sensed that he was one of those guys who thought it was acceptable to try to talk to the teachers like they were a buddy or peer.  So...he was gone, and the school was better off without him.

On 9/22/2023 at 5:17 AM, Lazarus said:

Not Ohio, but germane to the conversation:

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/at-13-baltimore-city-high-schools-zero-students-tested-proficient-on-2023-state-math-exam

 

In related news, I by total chance talked to a guy earlier this week who was expelled from a Catholic high school in Cincinnati.  Why?  For jokingly complaining to a female teacher that she didn't "love" him.  The way he explained it, I sensed that he was one of those guys who thought it was acceptable to try to talk to the teachers like they were a buddy or peer.  So...he was gone, and the school was better off without him.

 

And I'm sure there was nothing more to the story.

2 hours ago, X said:

 

And I'm sure there was nothing more to the story.

 

One of my relatives was kicked out of a Catholic high school his freshman year for taking a few extra quarters that a vending machine spit out.  First offense of any kind. 

 

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

 

One of my relatives was kicked out of a Catholic high school his freshman year for taking a few extra quarters that a vending machine spit out.  First offense of any kind. 

 

Seems like an opportunity for teaching about integrity and morals...or something? What a failure on their part. Instead they chose a path that could lead to lots of worse outcomes for this person if they didn't have other good support systems.

Let's privatize everything so those kinds of kids get sent straight into the working world instead 

Ohio School Reform Fight Heads to the Courts

 

A Franklin County judge has issued a temporary restraining order to block lawmakers’ attempts to overhaul Ohio’s K-12 education system.

 

Seven members of the Ohio State Board of Education filed a lawsuit against Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine Tuesday in the Franklin County Court of Common Pleas to stop the transfer of power from the Board to the governor’s office.

 

Christina Collins, Teresa Fedor, Kathleen Hofmann, Tom Jackson, Meryl Johnson, Antoinette Miranda, and Michelle Newman filed the lawsuit. They are being represented by Democracy Forward and Ulmer & Berne LLP.

 

Franklin County Judge Karen Held Phipps issued the temporary restraining order Thursday and will now go to a preliminary injunction hearing on Oct. 2, a day before the changes are scheduled to take effect.

 

“Creating a new cabinet-level agency is not a silver bullet and does not magically solve problems,” House Minority Leader Allison Russo, D-Upper Arlington, said in a statement. “Board members are elected on a non-partisan basis and because of that, expertise and experience in education is a big factor of who gets elected. With a governor appointee, there’s little doubt we’ll see an increase in partisan decision-making.” 

 

More below:

https://columbusunderground.com/ohio-school-reform-fight-heads-to-the-courts-ocj1/

Chech the list for candidates in your community. I see three just in Lakewood...

 

 

On 9/26/2023 at 12:55 PM, TheCOV said:

Seems like an opportunity for teaching about integrity and morals...or something? What a failure on their part. Instead they chose a path that could lead to lots of worse outcomes for this person if they didn't have other good support systems.

 

Boo-hoo.  If there exists a zero tolerance policy and you decide to test it you're likely going to be shown who is boss.  I had it happen to me in a legal matter and it changed the entire course of my life.  Maybe for the better, maybe for the worse.  The real test with these things is that if you dwell on the event and what-might-have-been you lose. 

 

He now sends his kids to Catholic schools and his wife works at one, so he's not dwelling on it.   

My alma mater had five perfect ACT scores this year...yet we have people here defending public schools where not a single student is "proficient" in math.

 

One of my best friends from high school got a 36 but is wildly unambitious.  He went to an Ivy League university but for the past ten years has worked in his church's parish office and might make $40k. 

People find it easier to blame public schools and teachers instead of bad parents and worse students. It's the way it's been for decades and will remain until/if ever demographics shift.

I worry far more about bad networking than "bad schools" and "bad teachers".

6 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 

Boo-hoo.  If there exists a zero tolerance policy and you decide to test it you're likely going to be shown who is boss.  I had it happen to me in a legal matter and it changed the entire course of my life.  Maybe for the better, maybe for the worse.  The real test with these things is that if you dwell on the event and what-might-have-been you lose. 

 

He now sends his kids to Catholic schools and his wife works at one, so he's not dwelling on it.   

Cool story Mr. Tough-Guy. Still and odd choice for any "educator".

How am I the first person to share this news?? 

 

We don’t have a functioning democracy. Gov. DeWine & the lawless legislature have grabbed power from an elected school board (which came about due to a Constitutional Amendment) and are set to eliminate Ohio’s Dept. of Education. 

They’re defying an in-force temporary restraining order to add it to the Governor’s bureaucracy.

 

DeWine: Part of overhaul of K-12 education will happen at midnight despite a court order.

https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/politics/2023/10/02/gov-mike-dewine-to-speak-at-515-about-education-department-lawsuit/71036139007/

8 hours ago, KJP said:

How am I the first person to share this news?? 

 

We don’t have a functioning democracy. Gov. DeWine & the lawless legislature have grabbed power from an elected school board (which came about due to a Constitutional Amendment) and are set to eliminate Ohio’s Dept. of Education. 

They’re defying an in-force temporary restraining order to add it to the Governor’s bureaucracy.

 

DeWine: Part of overhaul of K-12 education will happen at midnight despite a court order.

https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/politics/2023/10/02/gov-mike-dewine-to-speak-at-515-about-education-department-lawsuit/71036139007/

 

Grabbed power from an elected school board?    It sure seemed to work for CMSD.

12 hours ago, KJP said:

How am I the first person to share this news?? 

 

We don’t have a functioning democracy. Gov. DeWine & the lawless legislature have grabbed power from an elected school board (which came about due to a Constitutional Amendment) and are set to eliminate Ohio’s Dept. of Education. 

They’re defying an in-force temporary restraining order to add it to the Governor’s bureaucracy.

 

DeWine: Part of overhaul of K-12 education will happen at midnight despite a court order.

https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/politics/2023/10/02/gov-mike-dewine-to-speak-at-515-about-education-department-lawsuit/71036139007/

Cutting through the hyperbole. Dewine is not defying the restraining order. He has already said he will not appoint anyone to the position. 

 

Remember the court, especially a low level magistrate in Columbus, really cannot compel the executive branch or legislative branch to take a specific action. They can simply enjoin certain actions. So the court has restrained the governor from taking action to appoint a new Ed Commission and board to be overseen by the governor, but the court has no power to preserve the current board of education and the governor can dissolve that without a replacement mechanism in place if he chooses.  Hence the stalemate that will be likely worked out shortly and most likely in the governor's favor. 

How then are courts supposed to stay legislation until lawsuits are worked through if corrupt officials just twist themselves into knots to ignore the ruling?

 

The court said he cannot create the new education and workforce group. Dewine said it will just "exist" at midnight through no action of his own. What kind of nonsense is that. 

 

--------------

"Judge Karen Phipp’s temporary restraining order said the governor was prohibited from "creating the Department of Education and Workforce."

But DeWine told reporters his interpretation of that was he cannot take "affirmative action," but the department will exist without him doing anything come Tuesday because that’s what it says in the law. 

"We believe based on what our lawyers tell us that the new department can, in fact, function," DeWine said."

23 minutes ago, Mendo said:

How then are courts supposed to stay legislation until lawsuits are worked through if corrupt officials just twist themselves into knots to ignore the ruling?

 

The court said he cannot create the new education and workforce group. Dewine said it will just "exist" at midnight through no action of his own. What kind of nonsense is that. 

 

--------------

"Judge Karen Phipp’s temporary restraining order said the governor was prohibited from "creating the Department of Education and Workforce."

But DeWine told reporters his interpretation of that was he cannot take "affirmative action," but the department will exist without him doing anything come Tuesday because that’s what it says in the law. 

"We believe based on what our lawyers tell us that the new department can, in fact, function," DeWine said."

that is part of the problem with some of the citizen amendments that are passed. They do not carry an enforcement mechanism (now to some extent, they really can't because the branches are considered co-equal) and that creates the chaos. 

Now, the solution and enforcement mechanism is at the ballot box, but voters really are not paying attention to the details like this and the hyper partisan system just encourages politicos of all stripes to just ignore the courts because there are no repercussions at the ballot box or they are term limited and do not have any worries there either.

 

Edited October 3, 20231 yr by Brutus_buckeye

26 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

that is part of the problem with some of the citizen amendments that are passed. They do not carry an enforcement mechanism (now to some extent, they really can't because the branches are considered co-equal) and that creates the chaos. 

Now, the solution and enforcement mechanism is at the ballot box, but voters really are not paying attention to the details like this and the hyper partisan system just encourages politicos of all stripes to just ignore the courts because there are no repercussions at the ballot box or they are term limited and do not have any worries there either.

 

 

What does any of that have to do with the legislature clearly ignoring the court order? What should the ramifications to that be?

 

4 minutes ago, Mendo said:

 

What does any of that have to do with the legislature clearly ignoring the court order? What should the ramifications to that be?

 

The legislature can do what it wants so long as it does not interfere with the court's authority. The court does not have power to compel the legislature to act, so the court order is nothing more than an opinion that the legislature can take into consideration and agree or disagree with. It is up to the voters to then decide if the legislators should be held accountable and punished or rewarded for ignoring the court.  

Right, checks and balances between legislative and judicial branches doesn't really exist. Judicial rulings are only "suggestions".