To get an example of what this might turn out like, look to parts of cities that are served by the suburban school system near them. The Groveport-Madison school system consists mainly not of Groveport or Madison Twp. residents, but of Columbusites that live in the subdivisions off of Hamilton, Noe-Bixby and Williams Roads. Four of Groveport's elementaries are in Columbus, while only two are in Groveport. Columbus pays Groveport millions per year to run the schools. Westerville and Southwestern are like this as well.

 

edit: spell check tried to turn Columbusites into Combustibles

If something needs to be done beyond feeding a tic-tac to a whale, then a county based system must be implemented.  Otherwise, there will just be small scale mergers that really won't get at the heart of the problem.  A school districts which are fine with the status quo of their system (such as Beachwood and Orange) may merge and the systems that are in dire need of transformation will be left out in the cold without a dance partner.  County systems are not perfect, but they work well enough in other states (such as North Carolina) so that people are not so motivated to move farther and farther out from the city core.  If you start with that baseline, then there could be some discussion about school choice within the various systems.  There could be schools like John Hay that target top students and there could be school like the now defunct CH-UH Taylor Academy to which the rabble-rousers to keep them in line and not disturbing the learning environment.

County systems are not perfect, but they work well enough in other states (such as North Carolina) so that people are not so motivated to move farther and farther out from the city core. 

Wouldn't that encourage people to move to the next county though?

Not necessarily.  Moving onto the next county would have its own issues given the more rural setting.  There would be less schools and even possibly less $$ per pupil.  Plus, I think you are not giving full consideration to the type of flexibility and school choice that can be brought into a county-wide system. 

Plus, folks that move away from urban/suburban areas to semi-rural areas so that their kids won't have "bad influences" or see a lot of attention going to poor kids usually wind up disappointed that those areas have the same problems as everywhere else.

Plus, folks that move away from urban/suburban areas to semi-rural areas so that their kids won't have "bad influences" or see a lot of attention going to poor kids usually wind up disappointed that those areas have the same problems as everywhere else.

 

I see what you guys are syaing, but I think that those semi-rural areas would become suburban.  Look at how suburban the collar counties already are (Russell Township, Bainbridge Township, Chesterland, Grafton, Brusnwick, Medina, Avon, Aurora, Streetsboro, etc.).  I would just expect that to continue, especially in counties that don't have urban centers (Geauga, Medina, and Portage especially).

To get an example of what this might turn out like, look to parts of cities that are served by the suburban school system near them. The Groveport-Madison school system consists mainly not of Groveport or Madison Twp. residents, but of Columbusites that live in the subdivisions off of Hamilton, Noe-Bixby and Williams Roads. Four of Groveport's elementaries are in Columbus, while only two are in Groveport. Columbus pays Groveport millions per year to run the schools. Westerville and Southwestern are like this as well.

 

edit: spell check tried to turn Columbusites into Combustibles

 

Columbus is an interesting case because of annexation.  I am 99% certain that most of the area of Columbus that is part of the Groveport-Madison School District was annexed into the city years, perhaps several decades, after the independent school district itself was established.  I think you'll find that to be a common theme of most of the suburban school districts in Franklin County.  I don't think that's reason enough to start merging these districts with the Columbus City Schools.  If anything, I think that a few of the smaller school districts in Greater Columbus should be merged with each other.  Though Columbus tends to have larger suburban school districts than those located in the Cleveland, Cincinnati, Toledo, Akron, or Dayton areas.

If something needs to be done beyond feeding a tic-tac to a whale, then a county based system must be implemented.  Otherwise, there will just be small scale mergers that really won't get at the heart of the problem.  A school districts which are fine with the status quo of their system (such as Beachwood and Orange) may merge and the systems that are in dire need of transformation will be left out in the cold without a dance partner.  County systems are not perfect, but they work well enough in other states (such as North Carolina) so that people are not so motivated to move farther and farther out from the city core.  If you start with that baseline, then there could be some discussion about school choice within the various systems.  There could be schools like John Hay that target top students and there could be school like the now defunct CH-UH Taylor Academy to which the rabble-rousers to keep them in line and not disturbing the learning environment.

 

I don't support the idea of countywide school districts in larger urban areas as I think they will create more problems than they solve.  That said, even in large urban areas in the South where there are countywide districts there is still often a separate school district for the main central city.  That model should be the most extreme case of what happens here, that would still go too far in my opinion.

 

I believe that the state board of education can force school district consolidation.  If that's true, then piecemeal consolidation may work a little better.  Throw Warrensville City Schools in with Beachwood/Orange.  Or throw Richmond Heights and South Euclid-Lyndhurst in with Mayfield.  How about Bedford and Maple Heights with Solon?  Garfield Heights with Cuyahoga Heights and Independence?  :whip:

Plus, I think you are not giving full consideration to the type of flexibility and school choice that can be brought into a county-wide system. 

 

I think you can find that flexibility and choice by combining into districts of roughly 15,000-25,000 students without creating these geographical giants.

From the article.....

 

A study released in February by the National Education Policy Center and Ohio University that studied consolidation efforts in about a dozen states found that, most often, consolidation brings neither cost savings nor academic improvement.

 

Which part of that interests people? The lack of cost savings or the lack of academic improvement?

From the article.....

 

A study released in February by the National Education Policy Center and Ohio University that studied consolidation efforts in about a dozen states found that, most often, consolidation brings neither cost savings nor academic improvement.

 

Which part of that interests people? The lack of cost savings or the lack of academic improvement?

 

I think we'd have to know more specifics about the study to come to a determination.  The lack of academic improvement would not necessarily concern me as long as there wasn't a decrease in academic achievement.  The lack of cost savings goes against intuition and economies of scale.  I'm wondering if there were other factors at play.

 

Consolidation of districts might decrease the number of superintendents, which would save cost. However, it will probably INCREASE the number of assistant-superintendents. Bigger school districts are not necessarily more efficient.

 

What is the optimum size for a school district? I don't know. The big urban districts seemed to be contrained by too much beauracracy, so they are probably bigger than the optimum size already.

 

 

To get an example of what this might turn out like, look to parts of cities that are served by the suburban school system near them. The Groveport-Madison school system consists mainly not of Groveport or Madison Twp. residents, but of Columbusites that live in the subdivisions off of Hamilton, Noe-Bixby and Williams Roads. Four of Groveport's elementaries are in Columbus, while only two are in Groveport. Columbus pays Groveport millions per year to run the schools. Westerville and Southwestern are like this as well.

 

edit: spell check tried to turn Columbusites into Combustibles

 

Columbus is an interesting case because of annexation.  I am 99% certain that most of the area of Columbus that is part of the Groveport-Madison School District was annexed into the city years, perhaps several decades, after the independent school district itself was established.

 

Correct. Groveport schools were only in old Groveport until the 1960s when the new development in Columbus happened. All Groveport-Madison buildings outside old Groveport were built in the '60s and '70s. And, I'm sure Columbus had to assist with the building of the schools since the Groveport system had maybe 600 pupils at the time.

Efficiency is one thing; effectiveness is another. The problem with the Kasich administration is that it has these broad goals and then tries to push them through without thinking them through. School consolidation is not a bad idea, but if the state takes charge, it will be badly implemented. The conventional wisdom is based on the idea of economies of scale -- that a big district can be managed more efficiently than a smaller one. Like Columbus or Cleveland? Is a high school with 4,000 students better than one with 1,000? Do you want your kid in a class with 40 students or 25 students?  In consolidating small districts, how many schools do you close down in order to achieve economies of scale? How much do you add to the travel costs of busing those kids from a neighborhood school in their own town to a bigger school in another town? What will be the impact of closing a small-town school that was the heart of a community? Will that lead to decline in that town? Will property values -- and property taxes for the school district -- decline as a result?

 

We can't assume that consolidation will solve any problems. We need to carefully look at all the implications. Some places, it may work well if it's done right. Other possible candidates for consolidation could be a huge, costly mistake. Are there better models? Can we consolidate the administrative or purchasing functions of several districts, but leave instruction and school location up to the individual districts? We need to ask these sorts of questions, rather than just say, "Ugh! School consolidation GOOD!!"

Ohio is a lot denser than many of the other states that have county school systems, so larger schools shouldn't be necessary. Plus, that would require spending a lot of money for additions and new facilities right after the 1995-2005 school building boom. I know that in the Cincinnati area the high schools tend to be larger than in Columbus (seems that we always split 'em once they hit 1000 students), but combining buildings wouldn't save much money since they'd have to feed buses. Those one-hour each way bus rides are a complete waste of time and energy in a state as dense as ours. Studying and doing homework on a bus sucks because you are cramped, the paper's moving all over the place, it's hot/cold, it's loud and bored kids are raging. And getting up that early is hell on teenagers (but not on elementary school kids; don't get me started). Finally, monster schools are the ones that make kids snap and shoot up the place.

 

But who knows how this is going to turn out if it gets ramrodded through?

I would guess that consolidation will focus on the administrative level rather than actual building consolidation - that is happening quite naturally throughout the state. Even though I have no love lost for the township system of government, I do think some variation on the county-township gov't relationship could be reproduced in the schools. I'd like county-wide taxing, purchasing, and busing authorities that feed into locally controlled systems of about 10,000 students K-12.

As much as folks bring up the big cities being radioactive to the suburban districts, the exurbs (the cities just over the county border from the core county) at least in my corner of NE Ohio are just as afraid of the rest of their county.

Sounds like this is an issue both progressives and fiscal conservatives seem to be in agreement on.

^social conservatives, not fiscal conservatives, are the antithesis of progressive thinkers.

I believe that the state board of education can force school district consolidation.  If that's true, then piecemeal consolidation may work a little better.  Throw Warrensville City Schools in with Beachwood/Orange.  Or throw Richmond Heights and South Euclid-Lyndhurst in with Mayfield.  How about Bedford and Maple Heights with Solon?  Garfield Heights with Cuyahoga Heights and Independence?  :whip:

 

Bedford and Maple in the same district?  That would be a war...lol.  Solon would become the new Walton Hills, paying a big chunk of the freight while sending virtually no students.

 

Leaving aside the question of why a Republican governor would piss off a Republican leaning town that badly, all this would do would be boost private schools and marginalize public education.

I believe that the state board of education can force school district consolidation.  If that's true, then piecemeal consolidation may work a little better.  Throw Warrensville City Schools in with Beachwood/Orange.  Or throw Richmond Heights and South Euclid-Lyndhurst in with Mayfield.  How about Bedford and Maple Heights with Solon?  Garfield Heights with Cuyahoga Heights and Independence?  :whip:

 

Bedford and Maple in the same district?  That would be a war...lol.  Solon would become the new Walton Hills, paying a big chunk of the freight while sending virtually no students.

 

Leaving aside the question of why a Republican governor would piss off a Republican leaning town that badly, all this would do would be boost private schools and marginalize public education.

 

I can't remember how serious I was being with that post.  But you're right, such a plan would have serious unintended consequences.  Solon is already the last stop out of the county for many people--I suspect that this would simply expedite the process.

Most people on the board (including myself) have been paying so much attention to the mayoral and city council races that we don't know much about the School Board candidates. If anyone on UrbanOhio has done research on the candidates, please provide your insights in this thread.

 

 

The candidates are:

 

Martha Good

Elisa Hoffman

Daniel Minera

Sally O'Callaghan

Betsy Shank

Victoria Straughn

Melanie Bates

Ericka Copeland-Dansby

Marcia A. Futel

I believe that Bates is the only incumbent and there are three additional open seats.

 

Did not know Martha Good was running. What is her streak up to now?

Sally O'Callaghan is a parent at my kid's school, very involved, and a great person.  She got a Charter Committee endorsement.

Betsy Shank is a retired teacher who was at Walnut Hills for a very long time.  When I student taught there she was actually one of the teachers I worked with.

 

She was a bit abrasive but my guess is that her take on the issues is pretty good. 

Elisa Hoffman also got a charter endorsement. I believe she works or has worked for Teach for America.

She will be a great fit for the school board.

School Board winners:

Melanie Bates

Ericka Copeland-Dansby

Elisa Hoffman

Daniel Minera

 

Joining:

Alex Kuhns

Eve Bolton

Chris Nelms

 

Martha Good's losing streak continues. Has anyone contacted the folks at Guinness yet?

Wasn't sure what the best thread was...mods feel free to move.

 

edit: Ohio starts at 8:45 of the video

 

JOHN OLIVER BREAKS DOWN THE SHOCKING MISMANAGEMENT OF AMERICA'S CHARTER SCHOOLS

BY RYAN BORT

8/22/16

 

Most people agree that charter schools are good. Even politicians. George W. Bush, Barack Obama, Mitt Romney and, yes, Donald Trump have spoken in support of the publicly funded, privately operated educational institutions. Because both Democrats and Republicans support charter schools, charter schools get a lot of government money. On Sunday night's Last Week Tonight, John Oliver decided to investigate just how well these schools are spending the loads of government cash they've access to. “For this piece, and I know this is going to make some people on both sides very angry, we’re going to set aside whether charter schools are a good idea in principle…and look at how they operate in practice," Oliver said. What the Last Week Tonight team found was a shocking amount of fraud and mismanagement at the expense of the future of the nation's children.

 

http://www.newsweek.com/john-oliver-last-week-tonight-charter-schools-492401

Wasn't sure what the best thread was...mods feel free to move.

 

edit: Ohio starts at 8:45 of the video

 

JOHN OLIVER BREAKS DOWN THE SHOCKING MISMANAGEMENT OF AMERICA'S CHARTER SCHOOLS

BY RYAN BORT

8/22/16

 

Most people agree that charter schools are good. Even politicians. George W. Bush, Barack Obama, Mitt Romney and, yes, Donald Trump have spoken in support of the publicly funded, privately operated educational institutions. Because both Democrats and Republicans support charter schools, charter schools get a lot of government money. On Sunday night's Last Week Tonight, John Oliver decided to investigate just how well these schools are spending the loads of government cash they've access to. “For this piece, and I know this is going to make some people on both sides very angry, we’re going to set aside whether charter schools are a good idea in principle…and look at how they operate in practice," Oliver said. What the Last Week Tonight team found was a shocking amount of fraud and mismanagement at the expense of the future of the nation's children.

 

http://www.newsweek.com/john-oliver-last-week-tonight-charter-schools-492401

 

Part of the reason why people demand charter schools is because of the shocking amount fraud and mismanagement of funds in some of our public school systems. Instead of pitting one group against another like Oliver is trying to do, why not work on ways to get parents more involved so that this behavior stops altogether at all types of schools.

Part of the reason why people demand charter schools is because of the shocking amount fraud and mismanagement of funds in some of our public school systems.

 

On the list of reasons why people "demand" charter schools, this probably doesn't even crack the top 3. I don't think that fiscal responsibility is a term that many associate with charter schools in general.

Part of the reason why people demand charter schools is because of the shocking amount fraud and mismanagement of funds in some of our public school systems.

 

On the list of reasons why people "demand" charter schools, this probably doesn't even crack the top 3. I don't think that fiscal responsibility is a term that many associate with charter schools in general.

 

A lot of them are run by the same greedy former big-city school system mid-level administrators that are trying to get rich or die trying. They got kicked out of the public sector for being crooked.

Ohio Republicans allowed the fraud known as ECOT to rip off Ohio taxpayers to the tune of $.5 BILLION, much of which was funneled back to themselves in the form of campaign contributions. I guess that helps explains why they can’t afford to fund transit, (real) public schools, or the local government fund.

 

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/ecot-ohio-largest-online-charter-school-officially-closing-friday/QTooP5B1yapQFlb5t8wLsJ/

Another one:

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/education/2018/02/01/norwood-superintendent-stole-60-000-plus-intercepting-charter-school-checks-state-says/1086114001/

Another one:

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/education/2018/04/24/whistleblower-school-used-software-get-more-state-money/546400002/

^Wretched

A breakdown of how much various large public school districts sent to ECOT:

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/education/2018/06/07/ecot-how-much-money-cincinnati-ohio-area-schools-lost-charter/682045002/

These are pieces of swamp ontology which inevitably emerge from one-party rule. Republicans want charter schools, okay; Democrats don't like it. But if the Democrats had any influence, they could have provided a check on the Republicans' instincts to 1) reward campaign donors, and 2) provide insufficient regulations in the name of small government/free market/etc. principles.

As bad as this is, I still favor charter schools, because when this type of thing happens in a charter school, people have another option. The school will close and they can go to their public school or another charter school. If public schools were the only option, when corruption happens, people have no other options or choice but to put up with a corrupt and failed school system. 

 

 

As bad as this is, I still favor charter schools, because when this type of thing happens in a charter school, people have another option. The school will close and they can go to their public school or another charter school. If public schools were the only option, when corruption happens, people have no other options or choice but to put up with a corrupt and failed school system. 

 

 

 

If the charter system is going to be viable, online options need to be eliminated and there needs to be a more stringent cap per county.

 

School choice is a great thing when investment doesn't corrupt and saturate the market

It isn't just the online schools which have reported fraudulent numbers. But it's definitely true that it's much harder to verify enrollment and attendance for online schools.

School choice works when there are proper safeguards in place. When you get rid of the safeguards everything can become corruptible.

 

The only good thing about when a charter school fails is that there are options for the kids to go to take its place. When a public school fails, people are stuck with zero options.

School choice works when there are proper safeguards in place. When you get rid of the safeguards everything can become corruptible.

 

As long as the Ohio Republican Party is against all regulations and transparency for charter school financing, the Republican Party is effectively encouraging corruption. 

As long as the R's embrace anti-intellectualism they need to be kept as far away from education as possible.

I think the issue really is that we are handling online education wrong.  It shouldn’t an all inclusive one stop shop of education where it can educate all the troubled students that for whatever reason cannot attend a local school. That is a very tall order. 

    There should be some general online school that can handle pieces of education. The main one that comes to mind for me would be math. But early reading and spelling could also be put online as well. The benefit of this would be that it could meet a standard. There would be testing after each section and a high enough understanding of the section would have to be achieved before moving on to the next section. The best part of this is it could be done in a study hall it could be done on vacation it could be done during the summer. Then provide certifications for achievement based on on-site testing.  Allow students to test out of taking math for the incoming school year.  The positive for students is they can move on to learn other things while other students can get the help they need. The benefit for teachers is your focusing attention where it is needed.  The benefit for schools is they may be able to have less math classes and teachers if students are incentivized to learn on their own.  This could be used by charter schools and home educated kids.

School choice works when there are proper safeguards in place. When you get rid of the safeguards everything can become corruptible.

 

As long as the Ohio Republican Party is against all regulations and transparency for charter school financing, the Republican Party is effectively encouraging corruption. 

 

absolutely, the GOP fails students in this area and they need to have safeguards to protect against this from happening. However, to blindly say charter schools and school choice is bad because of ECOT and that the money is best served in the public schools is just blinding agreeing to the teacher's union propaganda. Like everything we need competition and checks and balances.

Finland and Sweden don't have school choice and they smoke us. 

"School choice" is a propaganda term which infers there can't be a choice between different schools without privately-run schools funded by taxes. Any student can enroll in any non-magnet school in the Cincinnati district; even students from outside the district (neighborhood students currently receive priority in the case of limited slots). That could be called "school choice." Or what about extending that offer across all district borders? That would greatly expand school choice, without any charter schools.

A Pickaway County student can attend any Pickaway County school that isn't over capacity.

Finland and Sweden don't have school choice and they smoke us. 

 

Huh?  Finland has some of the most robust school choice in the entire world.  It's essentially universal there.

 

http://blogs.worldbank.org/education/magic-education-finland

 

Finland runs a national school choice system where parents and students can choose freely between the 2,600 municipal and 80 privately-managed schools and funding follows the student.  While municipalities provide infrastructure financing to municipal schools, this appears to be the only major way in which the municipal schools differ from private schools.  Crucially, they do not guarantee teacher salaries or fixed costs if enrollments decline.

 

I'm as in favor of school choice as just about anyone and I think the Finnish model has amazing potential.  It's true that there's less distinction between public and private schools in Finland.  That's because Finnish municipal schools are allowed to fail if enrollments decline (like a private business), but are also not constrained by geographical districts (also like most private businesses).