I cant even imagine how dense it was when we had almost a million people.

 

 

Maybe this second image makes things more clear

 

To be fair to Jacksonville, the majority of that city is marshland/swamps and watersheds.  Phoenix has no excuse.

Phoenix and Jacksonville, to me, represent one large collection of people who happen to live in the same area...many became old/cold...retired...and many of the young are trained to think life can only exist in the sunbelt cities. Furthermore, the two remind me of one large sprawl experiment gone bad. Big populations, but little anything else...little heart and soul and little examples of them being a city that has contributed much to the founding or building of the nation. They popped up like pictures in a pop-up book....all quantity, little quality. Yes, this is just my opinion and how I see these cities..... and not an invitation to debate and argue.  Thank you.

Phoenix, perhaps since it blew up during the 1940's-60's.  Jacksonville, no.  It actually has a nice historic core and has historic value (particularly with African-Americans).  Just because a place is in the sunbelt does not mean it doesn't have history/heart/soul.

 

 

Phoenix, perhaps since it blew up during the 1940's-60's. Jacksonville, no. It actually has a nice historic core and has historic value (particularly with African-Americans). Just because a place is in the sunbelt does not mean it doesn't have history/heart/soul.

 

 

 

that second picture is great.

Just because a place is in the sunbelt does not mean it doesn't have history/heart/soul.

 

 

I didn't say that. I was suggesting that the typical sprawl, to me, has no heart and soul...and that is what a lot of these areas have become. I do have relatives in both places...visited much since the mid 70's and am not offering up my opinion blindly.

Just because a place is in the sunbelt does not mean it doesn't have history/heart/soul.

 

 

I didn't say that. I was suggesting that the typical sprawl, to me, has no heart and soul...and that is what a lot of these areas have become. I do have relatives in both places...visited much since the mid 70's and am not offering up my opinion blindly.

 

All sprawl has no heart and soul.  Aurora, OH is just as bad as Peoria, AZ.  Jacksonville does have inner-ring suburbs and a classic inner-city, just on a smaller scale than Cleveland.  I don't get why it should be knocked simply because it's a growing city.  ALL cities in this country (including the much-beloved Portland) are sprawling.

Yes but I would say (from my visit experience) that Phoenix has lost touch with that soul. I loved what it did have, though. Keep in mind this: Scottsdale (275,000 people) had a population of 2,000 people in 1950. While not Phoenix, this "growth" is development. Not expansion. Development=/=expansion. Phoenix developed much by "development" not "expansion". Because development is mainly economically driven, it is "soulless".

I don't want to get flamed for this, I'm seriously asking - why do you guys hate Phoenix so much?  I think it's very beautiful there and could see myself living there one day.

I don't want to get flamed for this, I'm seriously asking - why do you guys hate Phoenix so much?  I think it's very beautiful there and could see myself living there one day.

 

Then you don't want my answer!

[*]It's in Arizona for christsakes!

 

[*]It's dry

[*]Uncultured

[*]Racially unbalanced or shall I say not diverse

 

[*]The "city" has no soul

[*]Horrible Housing

I could go on.

I guess I'm looking for a more balanced, real response. I mean, dry is not a reason to hate a place.  As for racially unbalanced, I can't believe that argument at all. Did you know there are more Tongans there than anyplace else except Tonga?  Every cab driver I've had there is from another country. And how about all the Spanish speaking people there?

 

Whether or not the city has a "soul" seems a matter of perception. I've spent enough time there that I have felt some character and warmth that I really enjoyed, while parts of it did also seem empty - you could say that about anywhere.

I don't want to get flamed for this, I'm seriously asking - why do you guys hate Phoenix so much?  I think it's very beautiful there and could see myself living there one day.

 

Then you don't want my answer!

[*]It's in Arizona for christsakes!

 

[*]It's dry

[*]Uncultured

[*]Racially unbalanced or shall I say not diverse

 

[*]The "city" has no soul

[*]Horrible Housing

I could go on.

 

Typical. Thanks for contributing... (I am in a foul mood today. Thanks LeBron, national media coverage and lackluster Cavs. I enjoyed reliving every dumb thing that Cleveland has ever done in the name of sports)

 

I think most of the animosity towards Phonenix comes from the great press that it gets nationally, while Ohio gets horrible press.  All you hear about Cleveland weather is how you are cooped up for 4 months a year, Really are you going outside when it's 115? We just have a chip on our shoulder.

 

In short, if it feels good do it. (A great life philosphy in general)

thx CBC. I personally like being outside when it's 115 but I'm weird like that. When we last vacationed in Phoenix, it was 112 during the day and we were the only ones out at the pool all day long!

I guess I'm looking for a more balanced, real response. I mean, dry is not a reason to hate a place.  As for racially unbalanced, I can't believe that argument at all. Did you know there are more Tongans there than anyplace else except Tonga?  Every cab driver I've had there is from another country. And how about all the Spanish speaking people there?

 

Whether or not the city has a "soul" seems a matter of perception. I've spent enough time there that I have felt some character and warmth that I really enjoyed, while parts of it did also seem empty - you could say that about anywhere.

 

Dry climates are a reason to hate a place when it drys out your skin as well.

 

Do play the Latin card.  You know exactly what I meant.  It's racially unbalanced as there are a ton of white people, lots of Mexicans but out of that where are the other ethnicities or ethnic neighborhoods like we see in the Midwest/East Coast? 

 

It's like most of the sun belt, a few historic or older buildings in the cities core and the rest of the area looks like a 70s inspired suburb.

 

Phoenix (Arizona in general) is full of a bunch of old people with leather (you can substitute croc or ostrich) like skin counting down the day until the old ticker stops!!

...the rest of the area looks like a 70s inspired suburb.

 

Ah, that must be why I like it!

I don't want to get flamed for this, I'm seriously asking - why do you guys hate Phoenix so much?  I think it's very beautiful there and could see myself living there one day.

 

Then you don't want my answer!

[*]It's in Arizona for christsakes!

 

[*]It's dry

[*]Uncultured

[*]Racially unbalanced or shall I say not diverse

 

[*]The "city" has no soul

[*]Horrible Housing

I could go on.

 

Typical. Thanks for contributing... (I am in a foul mood today. Thanks LeBron, national media coverage and lackluster Cavs. I enjoyed reliving every dumb thing that Cleveland has ever done in the name of sports)

 

I think most of the animosity towards Phonenix comes from the great press that it gets nationally, while Ohio gets horrible press.  All you hear about Cleveland weather is how you are cooped up for 4 months a year, Really are you going outside when it's 115? We just have a chip on our shoulder.

 

In short, if it feels good do it. (A great life philosphy in general)

 

Sound like someone needs a hug, an enema and midol!  :P ;) ;) ;) ;D

thx CBC. I personally like being outside when it's 115 but I'm weird like that. When we last vacationed in Phoenix, it was 112 during the day and we were the only ones out at the pool all day long!

 

Well that would explain a lot about why you liked it there. Anything over 90 and I am miserable, maybe 93 if it's "dry heat". This whole national media frenzy on Cleveland is really fueling my Cleveland complex.Let me rephrase that, it's really making me want to refine my arguements and reasons for liking it here. Calling another city crap really isn't a valid reason.

I remember getting ready to go out to dinner one night and standing on my hotel balcony and looking out at the beautiful mountain, the cactuses (cacti?), seeing some jackrabbits and those funny birds that look like partridges (but aren't) running around and thinking gee it's beautiful here, and I'M FINALLY WARM. All the way down to the core of my being, I'm finally warm.  It was 116.

Sound like someone needs a hug, an enema and midol!  :P ;) ;) ;) ;D

 

I'll take you up on 2 of the 3. Hugs are appreciated. Midol is great stuff, caffiene and tylenol, we used to use it for hang overs in college. As far as number 3. My pipes are clean, lots of fiber in my diet...

AFA feeling bad today - I've been saying for years that we should not be so focused on our sports teams, but we are, and that's that.  That being said, I do think that the fans came out the winners last night for sure, and that was clear to anyone watching. We were clever and funny and stood our ground and told LeQuit where to shove it, and yet didn't do anything embarrassing (as fans).  I thought the Lyin' King shirt was fantastic!

I remember getting ready to go out to dinner one night and standing on my hotel balcony and looking out at the beautiful mountain, the cactuses (cacti?), seeing some jackrabbits and those funny birds that look like partridges (but aren't) running around and thinking gee it's beautiful here, and I'M FINALLY WARM. All the way down to the core of my being, I'm finally warm. It was 116.

 

You are going to have to retire to Hell, or at least a suburb of Hell. That is exactly what my grandmother would say about South Florida. She was warm. It would be 85 or 90 in the summer up here and she would still have the windows closed and a sweater on. But I digress.

 

Show me some love and throw a circle for Lakewood's density.

thx CBC. I personally like being outside when it's 115 but I'm weird like that. When we last vacationed in Phoenix, it was 112 during the day and we were the only ones out at the pool all day long!

 

you like being outside in 115 dry heat?  I love the beach and heat and I can't take it I dont know how you can.  That sun burns like crazy.

Well, I would never go to florida, all those bugs, and the humidity is just not the same for me as the dry heat. I like it, but not as much as the dry heat.

 

I do think our area has character, and I think it's beautiful here in the summer and fall, but yeah, I'd like to have a "winter home" somewhere else.

thx CBC. I personally like being outside when it's 115 but I'm weird like that. When we last vacationed in Phoenix, it was 112 during the day and we were the only ones out at the pool all day long!

 

You like being outside in 115 dry heat? I love the beach and heat and I can't take it I dont know how you can. That sun burns like crazy.

 

Dude, I'm Greek, it doesn't burn me for a long time.  Quicker than when i was a kid, but still yeah, not really burning.  I LOVED it.

 

I know it would be different if we lived there instead of just visiting. When you're in work clothes and it's that hot, it probably wouldn't be fun. And when stuff in your house rots unless you keep it in the fridge, or burns when you keep it next to a window, not fun.

Getting back to the Phoenix prejudice, I think it has a ton to do with the fact that Phoenix/ Cuyahoga County appear to be about the same size and density. And the make up of the two is probably remarkably similar, an old urban core that CDM posted and sprawly suburbs on the outside. However because Phoenix was annexing and Cleveland was stuck at it's current boundaries, well you know the story, same old broken record here on UO. It stings when you are talked about poorly nationally but even more when it's an apples to oranges comparison. Give the region a fair shake, and don't give out free passes because a city is big and sprawlly.

I don't want to get flamed for this, I'm seriously asking - why do you guys hate Phoenix so much? I think it's very beautiful there and could see myself living there one day.

 

Beautiful is obviously subjective, because I think Phoenix is ugly. I hate dry, brown, desert-type areas. I hate post WWII sprawl. And I hate intersections of 6 lane divided roads with fenced off houses set way back off each side. Almost anywhere I have dropped Mr. Street View around Phoenix this is all I see.

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.484772,-112.139541&spn=0.051542,0.111494&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=33.484772,-112.139541&panoid=WOpSvATu-rA0_nmTepcE8g&cbp=12,165.17,,0,7.29

 

Any city that looks like that 4.7 miles from downtown (especially one with over 1.5 million people) is a POS IMO. And then there are the outlying areas. I really don't like Aurora, OH, but I'd take it any day over something like Peoria (and places like Peoria, which extend for many, many miles on the outskirts of Phoenix). I couldn't find an identifiable center of Peoria, but these look to be near the middle:

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.581018,-112.235384&spn=0.051484,0.111494&z=14&layer=c&cbll=33.57978,-112.235796&panoid=BgEB-N6Q-5JipRYHRrmHjQ&cbp=12,132.74,,0,0.7

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.581125,-112.231221&spn=0.012871,0.027874&z=16&layer=c&cbll=33.581124,-112.231586&panoid=M_gPhbSh8GBCCSMRXdZFsg&cbp=12,95.14,,0,1.19

 

Or Sun City (find me any area around Cleveland with something approaching this level of ugly sprawl):

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.638049,-112.261237&spn=0.1029,0.222988&z=13&layer=c&cbll=33.638049,-112.261237&panoid=GLnorPoLXW1VMMVOMOIhjQ&cbp=12,76.28,,0,0.91

 

For comparison, here's the "middle of Aurora". I couldn't really identify the real center of town in Aurora either, but I think the level of crap, soullessness, and depressing landscape is many levels of magnitude less than the crap around Phoenix:

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=aurora,+oh&sll=41.498807,-81.696396&sspn=0.368222,0.891953&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Aurora,+Portage,+Ohio&ll=41.312758,-81.34552&spn=0.04616,0.111494&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=41.313021,-81.345523&panoid=J8AegZH-dJ2PuCcJvnjPGA&cbp=12,199.12,,0,-0.54

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=aurora,+oh&sll=41.498807,-81.696396&sspn=0.368222,0.891953&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Aurora,+Portage,+Ohio&ll=41.320236,-81.34552&spn=0.046154,0.111494&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=41.317414,-81.345154&panoid=eATXPL7zAIE1t2tiDK4Pzg&cbp=12,226.49,,0,5.83

 

Even many areas of residential sprawl around Cleveland show hints of character:

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=aurora,+oh&sll=41.498807,-81.696396&sspn=0.368222,0.891953&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Aurora,+Portage,+Ohio&ll=41.296714,-81.345638&spn=0.046429,0.111494&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=41.296714,-81.345638&panoid=oNml5qHkAjv2tm7FWNsIsQ&cbp=12,55.22,,0,0.91

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't like Aurora, but Phoenix and its suburbs are just on a whole different level of awful, even within the city limits. And that is why I think most of us here hate Phoenix.

Getting back to the Phoenix prejudice, I think it has a ton to do with the fact that Phoenix/ Cuyahoga County appear to be about the same size and density. And the make up of the two is probably remarkably similar, an old urban core that CDM posted and sprawly suburbs on the outside. However because Phoenix was annexing and Cleveland was stuck at it's current boundaries, well you know the story, same old broken record here on UO. It stings when you are talked about poorly nationally but even more when it's an apples to oranges comparison. Give the region a fair shake, and don't give out free passes because a city is big and sprawlly.

 

I could care less about our reputation versus theirs.  It's not jealousy.  I love NYC, Chicago, Boston, and Savannah, and it couldn't be much more night and day between the reputation those places have and the reputation we have.  Those cities are great.  Functional, urban, aesthetically pleasing, and beautiful countryside nearby (I'll take deciduous trees and 4 seasons any day over year-round dry heat and dusty, sandy land where nothing but a cactus can grow).  Phoenix is just ugly to me.  And then of course there's the massive sprawling, which furthers my disdain for the place.

I don't know that taking pictures of highways is really a good representation of what a place looks like?

 

I don't think this is ugly: http://www.wildnatureimages.com/Phoenix_Panoramic_Photos.htm

or this: http://www.wildnatureimages.com/Arizona-Hiking-Photos.htm

 

or http://www.picturesofphoenix.com/images/largepics/Downtown%20Phoenix%206.jpg

 

http://www.picturesofphoenix.com/images/largepics/NorthPhoenix12.jpg

 

http://www.picturesofphoenix.com/images/largepics/WestPhoenix15.jpg

 

or these: http://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotos-g31310-w2-Phoenix_Arizona.html

thx CBC. I personally like being outside when it's 115 but I'm weird like that. When we last vacationed in Phoenix, it was 112 during the day and we were the only ones out at the pool all day long!

 

You like being outside in 115 dry heat? I love the beach and heat and I can't take it I dont know how you can. That sun burns like crazy.

 

Dude, I'm Greek, it doesn't burn me for a long time. Quicker than when i was a kid, but still yeah, not really burning. I LOVED it.

 

I know it would be different if we lived there instead of just visiting. When you're in work clothes and it's that hot, it probably wouldn't be fun. And when stuff in your house rots unless you keep it in the fridge, or burns when you keep it next to a window, not fun.

 

72 and sunny is great, but if I have to move 40 degrees from there, I'll take 32 and snow ANY DAY over 112, dry, and sunny.  You can bundle up and stay warm outside when it's 32.  It's impossible to go outside at 112 and sunny and not be ridiculously uncomfortable (especially if your bare feet touch the ground or you touch ANYTHING in your car).  Besides, snow provides much more variety to nice weather than hotter and still sunny.

This is a good discussion everyone, thanks for participating. I find it interesting to find what drives the hate.

 

I'm just so different on this one. I don't LIKE the variety. I don't like it being 32 and snowy and then the next day, icy rain. One thing I loved about living in LA was that fact that you could always plan on doing something on a certain day outside, you never had to worry it was going to rain the day of your picnic or be too cold to plan a beach bbq or something. 

 

There's no amount of bundling that makes me warm when it's 32. It's like my bones get cold, starting around October 1, and they just dont' get warm again until like June.  I look like the Michelin Man most of the winter and get teased a lot for how much I bundle up, but it's the only thing that makes it even close to tolerable, and even then, it's barely that.

 

But I get the argument about the sprawl.  You hate it here, you hate it there, that makes sense.  However, from what I've seen, all of Phoenix is not a dry, plain desert. There are a lot of beautiful flowers and interesting things to look at besides plain dry sand.

I think that first one would be pretty ugly if you were looking at any of it pretty closely at ground level.  Nature pictures are beautiful of course, but don't really get to the point of how anyone feels about the city.  Phoenix does have a couple of nice parks, of course.  It's telling how few of the photos you provided are of actual urban environments.

One main difference is that Cleveland grew up, and continues to live by mass transit. Its urban neighborhoods were defined by walking and riding, and its density reflects that history. After WWII, many White middle class people fled the crowded conditions for the burbs around CLE. Phoenix grew in the auto age, and never built up an urban environment around walking. The vast majority of the urban housing in PHX is single-family, with small apartment complexes but very few multi-story dwellings. It was basically a resort town until air conditioning, and once it did start to blossom, the entire city was built around automobiles. It reminds me in many ways of outer parts of Detroit City and its inner-ring suburbs, where no one would dream of transporting themselves in anything but a car. I find the desert landscape immediately around Phoenix to be harsh, but the mountains north and NE of the city are magnificent.

It's true, that is telling, as I don't generally find any urban environment to be what I'd call "beautiful," here, there, or anywhere.

I don't want to get flamed for this, I'm seriously asking - why do you guys hate Phoenix so much? I think it's very beautiful there and could see myself living there one day.

 

Beautiful is obviously subjective, because I think Phoenix is ugly. I hate dry, brown, desert-type areas. I hate post WWII sprawl. And I hate intersections of 6 lane divided roads with fenced off houses set way back off each side. Almost anywhere I have dropped Mr. Street View around Phoenix this is all I see.

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.484772,-112.139541&spn=0.051542,0.111494&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=33.484772,-112.139541&panoid=WOpSvATu-rA0_nmTepcE8g&cbp=12,165.17,,0,7.29

 

Any city that looks like that 4.7 miles from downtown (especially one with over 1.5 million people) is a POS IMO. And then there are the outlying areas. I really don't like Aurora, OH, but I'd take it any day over something like Peoria (and places like Peoria, which extend for many, many miles on the outskirts of Phoenix). I couldn't find an identifiable center of Peoria, but these look to be near the middle:

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.581018,-112.235384&spn=0.051484,0.111494&z=14&layer=c&cbll=33.57978,-112.235796&panoid=BgEB-N6Q-5JipRYHRrmHjQ&cbp=12,132.74,,0,0.7

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.581125,-112.231221&spn=0.012871,0.027874&z=16&layer=c&cbll=33.581124,-112.231586&panoid=M_gPhbSh8GBCCSMRXdZFsg&cbp=12,95.14,,0,1.19

 

Or Sun City (find me any area around Cleveland with something approaching this level of ugly sprawl):

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.638049,-112.261237&spn=0.1029,0.222988&z=13&layer=c&cbll=33.638049,-112.261237&panoid=GLnorPoLXW1VMMVOMOIhjQ&cbp=12,76.28,,0,0.91

 

For comparison, here's the "middle of Aurora". I couldn't really identify the real center of town in Aurora either, but I think the level of crap, soullessness, and depressing landscape is many levels of magnitude less than the crap around Phoenix:

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=aurora,+oh&sll=41.498807,-81.696396&sspn=0.368222,0.891953&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Aurora,+Portage,+Ohio&ll=41.312758,-81.34552&spn=0.04616,0.111494&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=41.313021,-81.345523&panoid=J8AegZH-dJ2PuCcJvnjPGA&cbp=12,199.12,,0,-0.54

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=aurora,+oh&sll=41.498807,-81.696396&sspn=0.368222,0.891953&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Aurora,+Portage,+Ohio&ll=41.320236,-81.34552&spn=0.046154,0.111494&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=41.317414,-81.345154&panoid=eATXPL7zAIE1t2tiDK4Pzg&cbp=12,226.49,,0,5.83

 

Even many areas of residential sprawl around Cleveland show hints of character:

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=aurora,+oh&sll=41.498807,-81.696396&sspn=0.368222,0.891953&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Aurora,+Portage,+Ohio&ll=41.296714,-81.345638&spn=0.046429,0.111494&t=h&z=14&layer=c&cbll=41.296714,-81.345638&panoid=oNml5qHkAjv2tm7FWNsIsQ&cbp=12,55.22,,0,0.91

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't like Aurora, but Phoenix and its suburbs are just on a whole different level of awful, even within the city limits. And that is why I think most of us here hate Phoenix.

 

Meh, they are both "soulless" and "sprawling."  As the Great Sarah Palin once said, "You can't put lipstick on a pig...even if there is faux-Connecticut style churches and CVS's!"  I agree that Aurora looks more aesthetically pleasing than Peoria, but that's simply because I'm more used to that type of style.  I'm sure somebody coming from Phoenix would beg to differ.

 

And to be fair to Phoenix, their sprawl is much more condensed than any sort of eastern US sprawl due to water constraints.  Though with that, why live in a suburb if you can't get a decent yard?

Maybe because they think it's a better neighborhood, or they can afford more house?

Are you stating that Metro Cleveland is less affordable than Metro Phoenix?  In Aurora, for example, I'm presuming there is a decent school system + suburban houses that have decent lot sizes.  In Phoenix, their education has some of the worst funding (if not the worst) in the nation + housing lot sizes are about as tiny as a house in Glenville or Clark-Fulton.  The difference is that Glenville is built for the streetcar; 95% of Phoenix is not.

It's true, that is telling, as I don't generally find any urban environment to be what I'd call "beautiful," here, there, or anywhere.

 

You're welcome to your opinion, but need I point out that this is "UrbanOhio"?  Most people aren't going to agree with you on that.

It's true, that is telling, as I don't generally find any urban environment to be what I'd call "beautiful," here, there, or anywhere.

 

You're welcome to your opinion, but need I point out that this is "UrbanOhio"? Most people aren't going to agree with you on that.

 

Yeah, I noticed that as well.  I find it hard to believe that any urban environment can't be found beautiful.  Paris, Istanbul, or even smaller cities like San Miguel de Allende (or more locally, Cincinnati or Boston) blow that notion out of the water.

As we've seen through more than one post, there are a lot of suburban folks on the site here.  One thing I think we can all agree on is that we love Ohio, or at least some things about it, and we want to see it do better.

 

@coldayman, I wasn't giving a comparison. You asked why people would want to live in suburban phoenix if it's not because they get a "lawn" per se, so I was guessing as to why they would want to do that.  I have heard about the whole-lot houses in Phoenix and have a friend who lives in one, who says that since there are no green "lawns," people want as much house as they can get so the house takes up literally the whole lot.

 

@westerninterloper - good description!

That is true that the majority of the houses in Phoenix generally take up about 90% of the lot.  The problem is that the majority of those homes are one-story ranch and you may not be getting fully what you pay for.  In Ohio (and generally places east of the Dust Bowl Zone), homes are typically two stories (sans 60's-80's ranch homes) but out west, they generally are one (sans Pacific Northwest).  So yeah, you may get more space for your house but are you getting the full maximization of your dollar?  Probably not. 

 

It comes down to one thing, really: weather.

You're right, I think Paris is beautiful! Good point!

 

I also completely agree on what you're getting for your dollar. No argument there.  However, look how many people live in teeny tiny apartments and pay through the nose for them because they're in LA or NY - so maybe it's "location" but not "weather?"

For Phoenix, it's without question the weather.  Raw data showing the usage of air conditioning and population explosion of Phoenix shows this.  New York and Los Angeles are global cities ("where dreams come true") and people will sacrifice space and privacy to be a part of such a community.  Same goes for London, Paris, Tokyo (especially Tokyo) or any other primate city.  For Phoenix, though, its sprawling nature only generally exists due to weather.  It certainly wasn't economy (as shown by this recession) or an "it" place unless you count thousands of seniors living in Sun City "trendy".

I don't know that taking pictures of highways is really a good representation of what a place looks like?

 

But that's most of Phoenix!

 

I don't think this is ugly: http://www.wildnatureimages.com/Phoenix_Panoramic_Photos.htm

or this: http://www.wildnatureimages.com/Arizona-Hiking-Photos.htm

 

Skyline shots do not a city make.  By the way, I think they have a terribly boring skyline.

 

or http://www.picturesofphoenix.com/images/largepics/Downtown%20Phoenix%206.jpg

 

Yay for nature, but I prefer ours, with green grass, rivers, lakes, and grand old trees.  Sure, it's all subjective, but then again, we're discussing the city of Phoenix and the city of Cleveland (urban areas), not the nature in Arizona and the nature in Ohio.

 

http://www.picturesofphoenix.com/images/largepics/NorthPhoenix12.jpg

 

You find that beautiful?  I'm not sure what to say.  The grass looks like its struggling to maintain a hold in amongst the sand, which gives it that unkempt look you see in so much of the middle of Florida.

 

http://www.picturesofphoenix.com/images/largepics/WestPhoenix15.jpg

 

Umm...I'm starting to understand why we agree on so little.

 

or these: http://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotos-g31310-w2-Phoenix_Arizona.html

 

Ignoring for a second my comment before about how we're discussing cities...

 

Sure, that is a cool picture, but there's many cool nature pictures you can take in any area.  If I was actually there, I think I'd be bored of that landscape in about 30 seconds.  I'll take hiking through the Cuyahoga Valley National Park in the fall, a Lake Erie beach in the summer, or snow-covered pines in the Chagrin River Valley over that any day.

 

My point isn't to say there's NOTHING of value to ANYBODY in Phoenix, just that to me (and apparently many others here) there's just very little we like about Phoenix, especially when compared to many other cities around the country (not just Cleveland).

I feel that many of the neighborhoods that surround downtown Phoenix are ugly and lack character that our ohio cities have.

 

Here is an example. Just spin this around.

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Phoenix,+Maricopa,+Arizona&sll=37.079867,-78.747784&sspn=0.033279,0.077076&g=Phenix&ie=UTF8&oi=geospell&cd=1&geocode=Fblh_gEdy-JR-Q&split=0&hq=&hnear=Phoenix,+Maricopa,+Arizona&ll=33.438635,-112.078276&spn=0.002193,0.006861&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=33.438637,-112.077257&panoid=bJR-7888Cu1ZdpTWwER8aA&cbp=12,233.37,,0,3.43

I guess I just don't understand why there has to be such hatred for people liking things that are different than what you like. There are positives and negatives in any place, and if you don't like it, don't live there. I just don't get the frothing hate for it.

I guess I just don't understand why there has to be such hatred for people liking things that are different than what you like. There are positives and negatives in any place, and if you don't like it, don't live there. I just don't get the frothing hate for it.

 

I don't get the "hate" either, to be honest.  Do I like Phoenix?  I don't care for it, I'll say that.  Do I hate the joint?  No.  Do I wish it were better planned and turned into an American version of Sharjah?  Sure.  But as you said, different strokes for different folks.

I guess I just don't understand why there has to be such hatred for people liking things that are different than what you like. There are positives and negatives in any place, and if you don't like it, don't live there. I just don't get the frothing hate for it.

 

Frothing hate?  You express opinions, we express opinions.  We aren't here to make you agree with us.  You asked WHY we don't like Phoenix, I gave you my reasons.  I'm not going to sugarcoat it.  I'm not trying to tell anyone else what they have to think about it, just clearing up my reasons for thinking the city is a pile of junk since you asked.

I think most people here hate the city and not necessarily the people. I hate the suburbs of Cleveland and suburbs in general but that doesn't make me hate the people that live there. Is it wrong for me to hate suburbs, I dont think it is. Same goes for Phoenix. I dont even necessarily hate Phoenix, I dont like it, but does that make me wrong to not like it, no. Now if I hated everybody in the city that would be a little extreme.

All sprawl has no heart and soul.  Aurora, OH is just as bad as Peoria, AZ.  Jacksonville does have inner-ring suburbs and a classic inner-city, just on a smaller scale than Cleveland.  I don't get why it should be knocked simply because it's a growing city.  ALL cities in this country (including the much-beloved Portland) are sprawling.

 

 

I think that can depend on what you are defining as sprawl. All the new McMansion and strip plaza and parking lot areas...Absolutely I feel the same, however.....With my work, which requires a great deal of detailed traveling to dissect not only the inner core city here, but also the greater area...I would have to say that even in our more sprawling areas, we can find a little more heart and soul mixed in. (Not the McMansion scene) but the more historic areas of northern Ohio that are not solely limited to the core city and that are full of "rich history" (although young, but 235 years is all we have as a country, let alone the state/city).

 

There are suburb areas in N.E. Ohio that are just as old or close to it as Cleveland itself. Just under an hour outside of downtown Cleveland, Warren, for example... where I was born...and do not really like the state of it today, but it is actually older than Cleveland and was the first city in the Western reserve. People used to go to Warren from Cleveland to pay taxes. Although Warren is not really a suburb...and I am not saying it is... but more of a "far-out"..,satellite moon city to the southeast" as I describe it. Ironically, many people do not make the connections here as that place being a part of the bigger puzzle that makes up the greater region of N.E. Ohio, with Cleveland being the epicenter.....On the other hand, the same distance from the center of Jax, would have such a place considered a part of "Metro Jacksonville"

 

 

There are many far our suburb-type areas here, within an easy drive.... that are essentially their own historic little places with some real character. (They are their own municipalities, of course, but part of the bigger puzzle that is N.E. Ohio) Burton, Chardon, Chagrin, Painsville, Geauga's park district as a green Jewell I want to throw in, in the spirit of a diverse landscape...and many other places to the east.....and to the west places like Vermilion... To me, these little exurb cities that are in the greater Cleveland area, have more heart, soul, and character in one..... than an entire Jacksonville.

 

And still, we measure a quality of a given area to much solely on quantity of population. Cleveland itself needs to focus more on being the best 400,000-plus thousand city it can be.... more than it worries about being double in population.  I look for more quality than quantity.....and Jax simply does not do it for me because the newer sprawl-type scene overrides the rest. I just associate so much of the Florida city scene these days with mostly shopping, strip malls, pretend cities, and overcrowded beaches. (Unless you go to St. Augustine, which is my favorite Florida city)

 

Yes, other places have things we have too that I described above, but I was limiting this discussion to mostly contrasts between a Jax/Phoenix type place...to Cleveland/N.E. Ohio

 

On a side note......The only thing I would knock about Jax rampant growth (and this comes from my naturalist side) is the simple fact that it is unsustainable, especially in fragile lands that make up this portion of Florida. Growth beyond maturity is cancer...and this goes into the direction of illustrating how much the river systems in northeastern Florida are threatened because of it.

 

Left unabated, it will eventually connect to having negative economic impacts. Like manufacturing base eroding became the first real demise of Cleveland as we knew it in its still infant history, I see the unsustainable population growth and the ensuring environmental damage as part of what could be the demise of sunbelt cities.

 

Yes, we screwed the environment in Cleveland, and still are but in less visually dramatic ways to the untrained eye, but what may also be less visually dramatic in a place like Jax (no gritty smoke stacks!) can have equally grave consequences. I say this because some how most people seem to associate environmental damage with the industrious past, yet cannot understand just how much population growth, even with no huge manufacturing behemoth scenes, can have an equal impact all its own. Such places are not exempt. 

 

My brother operates a line boring operation throughout the entire state of Florida...a multi-million operation.... and works on huge phosphate mining equipment and other development equipment...and this is where one gets a first hand look at the damage being caused by overdeveloped Florida, with Jax getting its fair share of issues associated. What most people never see...and the dark side of the so-called "growth"

 

As for the weather, and speaking moreso on the Phoenix scene, now...I like seasons with moods... I do not want to go around squinting year 'round and getting crows feet and leather skin. The same thing all the time can be boring IMO. Too many people here gripe about weather. Geez...toughen up already. There is always the prevailing assumption that everyone must like warm and sun all the time. No everyone does. I just don't want to park my tail in a place that attracts 4,000 people a month but averages 4" of rain per year. Where is the disconnect with this? This is what will be the hurt of the desert.

 

By the way, Cleveland has darters!!!!...  :-D ...and rests on the far northern edge of what is the most diverse temperate flora and fauna on the planet. Darters, found only in North America. Oh... I think I saw a fish...my mistake, the river is dead and dried up so someone can have a pool. I think they do have the rare and endangered Devil's Hole Pupfish out there (Nevada too) but thanks to the sprawl, there is only a few left. And this issue ifs not about the loss of a fish, it is about the bigger picture of the loss of clean water...but I guess that swimming pool for Mike Piggasonno is more important.  :-D

I think most people here hate the city and not necessarily the people. I hate the suburbs of Cleveland and suburbs in general but that doesn't make me hate the people that live there. Is it wrong for me to hate suburbs, I dont think it is. Same goes for Phoenix. I dont even necessarily hate Phoenix, I dont like it, but does that make me wrong to not like it, no. Now if I hated everybody in the city that would be a little extreme.

 

Though it's not terribly polite, there's nothing really wrong with saying you "hate" a place if you mean it the same way as "hating" coffee ice cream or appletinis.  Meaning it doesn't appeal to your particular interests and tastes, not that you want it banned or burned.  This is certainly the case for me regarding desert sun belt, like Phoenix and LV.  I value deciduous street trees, bodies of water, walking, having there be other people walking, public transit, institutional culture, socially liberal politics, public markets, local restaurants and old buildings and neighborhoods with legit, unselfconscious patina.  The rust belt is losing some of these attributes, but still does pretty well overall compared to Phoenix.  Many sun belt cities seem to be making real progress offering communities with these attributes though.