I've been to phoenix many times and Im not afraid to say I hate it. The traffic sucks....it's getting more and more dangerous because of the drug trade.  Kids from their pretty suburban homes are getting abducted weekly by gangs of the drug cartels from Mexico.  Lastly, most of the people I know that moved out there remind of the dbags from Jersey Shore.  So yea the hate is frothing, get over it. 

All sprawl has no heart and soul. Aurora, OH is just as bad as Peoria, AZ. Jacksonville does have inner-ring suburbs and a classic inner-city, just on a smaller scale than Cleveland. I don't get why it should be knocked simply because it's a growing city. ALL cities in this country (including the much-beloved Portland) are sprawling.

 

 

I think that can depend on what you are defining as sprawl. All the new McMansion and strip plaza and parking lot areas...Absolutely I feel the same, however.....With my work, which requires a great deal of detailed traveling to dissect not only the inner core city here, but also the greater area...I would have to say that even in our more sprawling areas, we can find a little more heart and soul mixed in. (Not the McMansion scene) but the more historic areas of northern Ohio that are not solely limited to the core city and that are full of "rich history" (although young, but 235 years is all we have as a country, let alone the state/city).

 

There are suburb areas in N.E. Ohio that are just as old or close to it as Cleveland itself. Just under an hour outside of downtown Cleveland, Warren, for example... where I was born...and do not really like the state of it today, but it is actually older than Cleveland and was the first city in the Western reserve. People used to go to Warren from Cleveland to pay taxes. Although Warren is not really a suburb...and I am not saying it is... but more of a "far-out"..,satellite moon city to the southeast" as I describe it. Ironically, many people do not make the connections here as that place being a part of the bigger puzzle that makes up the greater region of N.E. Ohio, with Cleveland being the epicenter.....On the other hand, the same distance from the center of Jax, would have such a place considered a part of "Metro Jacksonville"

 

 

There are many far our suburb-type areas here, within an easy drive.... that are essentially their own historic little places with some real character. (They are their own municipalities, of course, but part of the bigger puzzle that is N.E. Ohio) Burton, Chardon, Chagrin, Painsville, Geauga's park district as a green Jewell I want to throw in, in the spirit of a diverse landscape...and many other places to the east.....and to the west places like Vermilion... To me, these little exurb cities that are in the greater Cleveland area, have more heart, soul, and character in one..... than an entire Jacksonville.

 

And still, we measure a quality of a given area to much solely on quantity of population. Cleveland itself needs to focus more on being the best 400,000-plus thousand city it can be.... more than it worries about being double in population. I look for more quality than quantity.....and Jax simply does not do it for me because the newer sprawl-type scene overrides the rest. I just associate so much of the Florida city scene these days with mostly shopping, strip malls, pretend cities, and overcrowded beaches. (Unless you go to St. Augustine, which is my favorite Florida city)

 

Yes, other places have things we have too that I described above, but I was limiting this discussion to mostly contrasts between a Jax/Phoenix type place...to Cleveland/N.E. Ohio

 

On a side note......The only thing I would knock about Jax rampant growth (and this comes from my naturalist side) is the simple fact that it is unsustainable, especially in fragile lands that make up this portion of Florida. Growth beyond maturity is cancer...and this goes into the direction of illustrating how much the river systems in northeastern Florida are threatened because of it.

 

Left unabated, it will eventually connect to having negative economic impacts. Like manufacturing base eroding became the first real demise of Cleveland as we knew it in its still infant history, I see the unsustainable population growth and the ensuring environmental damage as part of what could be the demise of sunbelt cities.

 

Yes, we screwed the environment in Cleveland, and still are but in less visually dramatic ways to the untrained eye, but what may also be less visually dramatic in a place like Jax (no gritty smoke stacks!) can have equally grave consequences. I say this because some how most people seem to associate environmental damage with the industrious past, yet cannot understand just how much population growth, even with no huge manufacturing behemoth scenes, can have an equal impact all its own. Such places are not exempt.

 

My brother operates a line boring operation throughout the entire state of Florida...a multi-million operation.... and works on huge phosphate mining equipment and other development equipment...and this is where one gets a first hand look at the damage being caused by overdeveloped Florida, with Jax getting its fair share of issues associated. What most people never see...and the dark side of the so-called "growth"

 

As for the weather, and speaking moreso on the Phoenix scene, now...I like seasons with moods... I do not want to go around squinting year 'round and getting crows feet and leather skin. The same thing all the time can be boring IMO. Too many people here gripe about weather. Geez...toughen up already. There is always the prevailing assumption that everyone must like warm and sun all the time. No everyone does. I just don't want to park my tail in a place that attracts 4,000 people a month but averages 4" of rain per year. Where is the disconnect with this? This is what will be the hurt of the desert.

 

By the way, Cleveland has darters!!!!... :-D ...and rests on the far northern edge of what is the most diverse temperate flora and fauna on the planet. Darters, found only in North America. Oh... I think I saw a fish...my mistake, the river is dead and dried up so someone can have a pool. I think they do have the rare and endangered Devil's Hole Pupfish out there (Nevada too) but thanks to the sprawl, there is only a few left. And this issue ifs not about the loss of a fish, it is about the bigger picture of the loss of clean water...but I guess that swimming pool for Mike Piggasonno is more important. :-D

 

Whooolawd, you're a HAM!

Is that first graphic supposed to be drawn to scale? If so, then there's a math error.

 

The area of the Cuyahoga circle should be a little less than four times the area of the Cleveland circle.

I don't want to get flamed for this, I'm seriously asking - why do you guys hate Phoenix so much? I think it's very beautiful there and could see myself living there one day.

I thought that you described yourself as being 'crunchy,' which is why I am having a hard time understanding why you would want to live an environment like Phoenix. I can see you liking the desert scenery and the temperature, but the city is just so unsustainable. A desert can not naturally support the population that lives in Phoenix and the stress that the demands of the city put on the environment is detrimental to the entire south west region of the U.S. and Mexico (like the water shortages of the Colorado River, which is not just Phoenix's fault, but the fault of other desert cities and agricultural activities that would not be able to exist without the water they are hoarding).

Part of the reason I want to live there is there are a LOT more crunchy parents there than there are here.  There are a high number of women on several different "crunchy Mom" boards I am on that live in Phoenix, Scottsdale, Tucson or other areas around there. The proportion of breastfeeding, babywearing crunchy moms, let alone cloth diapering, is MUCH higher there than it is here.

 

There is no way for me to live an environmentally perfect life unless I move in with Woody Harrelson and live off the grid in Hawaii, so I make decisions about where I would like to live based on a variety of factors, including the type of people that live there, the climate, the activities that there are to do, etc. I think in general they have a much better focus on work-life balance there than here, people are less sports-focused and more likely to get out and do things outside every single day than they are to sit on the couch and try to stay warm with a space heater.

 

That being said, I'm obviously no McCain fan, so it's not like I'm running out there tomorrow.

The desert thing is somewhat of a broken record.  For example, some of the earliest civilizations thrived in deserts (Egypt, Iran, Ur, hell, most of the Middle East; Mali; even early Khan).  It's about water consumption/intake moreso than just building a city in the desert.  Phoenix's problem (which I believe they are trying to address much like Las Vegas) is that the population wastes water moreso than other counties.  I believe they are doing the water-recycle schtick, which is fine, but they need to plan out how to reduce water consumption to levels of Riyadh and not Atlanta.

Part of the reason I want to live there is there are a LOT more crunchy parents there than there are here. There are a high number of women on several different "crunchy Mom" boards I am on that live in Phoenix, Scottsdale, Tucson or other areas around there. The proportion of breastfeeding, babywearing crunchy moms, let alone cloth diapering, is MUCH higher there than it is here.

 

There is no way for me to live an environmentally perfect life unless I move in with Woody Harrelson and live off the grid in Hawaii, so I make decisions about where I would like to live based on a variety of factors, including the type of people that live there, the climate, the activities that there are to do, etc. I think in general they have a much better focus on work-life balance there than here, people are less sports-focused and more likely to get out and do things outside every single day than they are to sit on the couch and try to stay warm with a space heater.

 

That being said, I'm obviously no McCain fan, so it's not like I'm running out there tomorrow.

 

Following that, why not prefer, say, a Tampa or Charlotte?  They are both family-friendly, youthful places with warm climates, more babies poppin' out more than Chris Brown, arguably more "bang for your buck," and closer to home for you?

Is that first graphic supposed to be drawn to scale? If so, then there's a math error.

 

The area of the Cuyahoga circle should be a little less than four times the area of the Cleveland circle.

 

Why is that? Cleveland has like 77 square miles of land, Cuyahoga County has 458 square miles of land.

 

Thats almost 6 times bigger not a little less than 4

Part of the reason I want to live there is there are a LOT more crunchy parents there than there are here. There are a high number of women on several different "crunchy Mom" boards I am on that live in Phoenix, Scottsdale, Tucson or other areas around there. The proportion of breastfeeding, babywearing crunchy moms, let alone cloth diapering, is MUCH higher there than it is here.

 

There is no way for me to live an environmentally perfect life unless I move in with Woody Harrelson and live off the grid in Hawaii, so I make decisions about where I would like to live based on a variety of factors, including the type of people that live there, the climate, the activities that there are to do, etc. I think in general they have a much better focus on work-life balance there than here, people are less sports-focused and more likely to get out and do things outside every single day than they are to sit on the couch and try to stay warm with a space heater.

 

That being said, I'm obviously no McCain fan, so it's not like I'm running out there tomorrow.

The crunchy mom thing aside, I am sure there are more environmentally sound cities/towns that aren't as wasteful as Phoenix and its sprawl, places that wouldn't require you to "go off the grid in Hawaii." I was not saying that you would need to live environmentally perfect, it is just there are so many places that are less wasteful than the desert boom cities, but still have similar climates or climates that would meet your preferences.

 

CDM - I was not saying that all desert cities are unsustainable, but cities like Pheonix and Las Vegas are VERY wasteful when it comes to water. For example, look at an aerial photo of Las Vegas or Phoenix. Why are there so many miles of green grass in the middle of the desert?

I would love to know what those places are then, perhaps I'm just under-informed?

 

I think Charlotte is too small, and not where I want to be, weather-wise.  Tampa is too far south - the humidity again is not what I desire.  The south and west parts of the US are likely where I would want to land with weather being an important factor for me.  Portland would be near perfect except I think there's way too much precipitation there and it's not quite as warm as I'd like it to be.  But the "people" aspect is near perfect, in terms of parents, crunchy-ness, work-life balance, etc.  Closer to home is not so much of an argument, as we won't be moving anywhere until/unless my mom passes away, and once that happens, I don't care to be close to home and neither will my DH.

Th

Is that first graphic supposed to be drawn to scale? If so, then there's a math error.

 

The area of the Cuyahoga circle should be a little less than four times the area of the Cleveland circle.

 

Why is that? Cleveland has like 77 square miles of land, Cuyahoga County has 458 square miles of land.

 

Thats almost 6 times bigger not a little less than 4

 

The problem is that the graph is misleading. The radius of the circle representing Cuyahoga County is indeed 6 times larger than the radius of the circle representing Cleveland, but when you calculate the area of a circle, you square the radius. So, in effect, the area of the circle representing Cuyahoga County is about 36 times larger than the Cleveland's circle.

Well, weather-wise and big city without that much humidity, how about Dallas?  That's about as family-friendly as you can get.

Part of the reason I want to live there is there are a LOT more crunchy parents there than there are here.  There are a high number of women on several different "crunchy Mom" boards I am on that live in Phoenix, Scottsdale, Tucson or other areas around there. The proportion of breastfeeding, babywearing crunchy moms, let alone cloth diapering, is MUCH higher there than it is here.

 

There is no way for me to live an environmentally perfect life unless I move in with Woody Harrelson and live off the grid in Hawaii, so I make decisions about where I would like to live based on a variety of factors, including the type of people that live there, the climate, the activities that there are to do, etc. I think in general they have a much better focus on work-life balance there than here, people are less sports-focused and more likely to get out and do things outside every single day than they are to sit on the couch and try to stay warm with a space heater.

 

That being said, I'm obviously no McCain fan, so it's not like I'm running out there tomorrow.

CDM - I was not saying that all desert cities are unsustainable, but cities like Pheonix and Las Vegas are VERY wasteful when it comes to water. For example, look at an aerial photo of Las Vegas or Phoenix. Why are there so many miles of green grass in the middle of the desert?

 

No disagreement from me.

Th

Is that first graphic supposed to be drawn to scale? If so, then there's a math error.

 

The area of the Cuyahoga circle should be a little less than four times the area of the Cleveland circle.

 

Why is that? Cleveland has like 77 square miles of land, Cuyahoga County has 458 square miles of land.

 

Thats almost 6 times bigger not a little less than 4

 

The problem is that the graph is misleading. The radius of the circle representing Cuyahoga County is indeed 6 times larger than the radius of the circle representing Cleveland, but when you calculate the area of a circle, you square the radius. So, in effect, the area of the circle representing Cuyahoga County is about 36 times larger than the Cleveland's circle.

 

Ill try to make a correction

Texas is not for me, no. Bad enough to live in John McCain land but to live in Halliburton land, no.

Well, I don't know if you noticed but the whole "red states" thing isn't just a correlation between families = warm weather = Republicans, ya know...

Texas is not for me, no. Bad enough to live in John McCain land but to live in Halliburton land, no.

 

WTH!  There is virtually no difference between TX and AZ!

That's just not true. All of the big oil companies are in texas, and the really nasty businesses that support the war. It's not for me.

Actually, I'd much rather live in Texas than Arizona.  At least Texas has somewhat liberal cores (Houston/Dallas/Austin/San Antonio/El Paso).  Even the city of Phoenix is generally McCain-ish.  Tempe, Tucson, and Flagstaff are notable exceptions, of course.

well, to each his own. No desire for texas. None.

Well, weather-wise and big city without that much humidity, how about Dallas?  That's about as family-friendly as you can get.

 

Dallas doesn't have much humidity?  Are you smoking crack?

 

The humidity is nowhere as bad as Houston or NoLa, but it gets humid and hot as hell!

Well, weather-wise and big city without that much humidity, how about Dallas? That's about as family-friendly as you can get.

 

Dallas doesn't have much humidity? Are you smoking crack?

 

The humidity is nowhere as bad as Houston or NoLa, but it gets humid and hot as hell!

 

It's not as humid in the summer as out here or Houston/NoLa.  Dallas gets humid, don't get me wrong, but their humidity is somewhat tolerable.  The problem with Dallas is it gets HOT quick with no rain!

I would love to know what those places are then, perhaps I'm just under-informed?

Well, I think that Flagstaff and Sedona would be better than Phoenix. Also, I would think San Francisco would be ideal, unless you absolutely want a desert climate.

Sedona would be lovely! But there are no jobs. We have to live in a big city where we can reasonably get jobs.  SF is WAY too expensive - we want to be homeowners some day.  I also think it gets too chilly there. Every time I've gone there, I'm chilly.

Sedona would be lovely! But there are no jobs. We have to live in a big city where we can reasonably get jobs. SF is WAY too expensive - we want to be homeowners some day. I also think it gets too chilly there. Every time I've gone there, I'm chilly.

Well, I wish you luck in your future endeavors and I hope that one day you can find a place where you will be happy.

 

Oh, and to answer your earlier question, I do not like Phoenix because I see it as a wasteful/unsustainable city and I do not like the state of Arizona either, but that has more to do with politics than anything else. Also, I do find the desert scenery beautiful, but I don't think I could live in that type of environment. I like a more green, tree filled environment with different seasons that changes things up. I think the same weather year round would be very boring and uninspiring, but that is just my personal preference.

It's not as humid in the summer as out here or Houston/NoLa.  Dallas gets humid, don't get me wrong, but their humidity is somewhat tolerable.  The problem with Dallas is it gets HOT quick with no rain!

 

I know.  I have a friend in Dallas who put seasoned meat in a cast iron skillet out on his patio.  He puts a brick on it when he leaves for leaves for work, after lunch (he lives close to his job) in the afternoon and when he goes home around 6 the meat is cooked.  I was like that is some crazy shit. 

Thanks. I do love Ohio, I just only love it for about half the year. :)

I think I know which part of the year you are referring to and if only you could get a vacation home in Sedona so that we can keep you in Ohio. :)

That would be perfect!

What is this thread about?

What are you about?

What are we all about?

What is this thread about?

 

Is that first graphic supposed to be drawn to scale? If so, then there's a math error.

 

The area of the Cuyahoga circle should be a little less than four times the area of the Cleveland circle.

 

Why is that? Cleveland has like 77 square miles of land, Cuyahoga County has 458 square miles of land.

 

Thats almost 6 times bigger not a little less than 4

 

I was going from the numbers in the circle - assuming those are the proportions being graphed.

I was going from the numbers in the circle - assuming those are the proportions being graphed.

 

Those are the populations.  The size of the circle is supposed to be proportional to the area.

I posted another version of the image. Maybe that one shows the land differences more clearly

Well I'm not a fan a Phoenix pretty much for the reasons jam40jeff stated.

 

too hot

ugly and brown

dry

no urban or historical character

full of old people and materialistic L.A. rejects

built for the car, not for the people

 

I don't hate the place or anything, but frankly I think it would be the last major city I would want to live. The only good part about living there I can see is proximity to Arizona's national parks.

 

RockandRoller, it sounds like you want to live somewhere hot and dry with a lot of hippies and don't care much about urban life. I think Tucson or Albuquerque would be good. Maybe they are too small? Or what about San Diego? I used to live there and can tell you that in the summer half of Phoenix vacations there anyway LOL. 

 

 

Oh, and as for Cleveland's density, I would like to see it increase in the future. It's good that it has the bones to do so unlike some other places. Hopefully I will see some urban infill and transit orient development down the road in C-Town.

I've been kind of interested in visiting Albuquerque, will include it in future consideration.  I like SD a lot but I really think it's not a spanish-optional city and we don't know any spanish.

I've been kind of interested in visiting Albuquerque, will include it in future consideration.  I like SD a lot but I really think it's not a spanish-optional city and we don't know any spanish.

 

Lawd!  You all need to start teaching that baby a 2nd language today!

I wish I knew a 2nd language, I would have taught him since birth.

 

I will say for the record that I largely LOVE urban landscape and cities. I just don't want to LIVE in them. I like visiting them, prefer working in them, etc. I just don't want to live there.

When I think of "crunchy", I think of "fake", sorry..

 

"Crunchy" Mom's washing their cloth diapers in the middle of a freaking desert, where the natural environment had to be altered to bring water in order to conserve it to begin with??  Here's an idea, how about the people all move to where water "naturally" is, then return the environment to its natural state?

 

BTW, I had to live in Phoenix (Glendale/Peoria) for six years, and yes, HATED it..

The girls in Phoenix are just knockouts - that's certainly a big reason that I'm fond of the city

^true.... until they become women and their faces start to look like a catchers mit from all the UV rays ;)

I'd say that's more florida

I'd say that's more florida

No, it's Phoenix..  The dry climate ends up sucking all of the moisture out of their body, sort of like how all of the water was sucked out of the land.  Leading to that typical raisin look of a 40 year-old Phoenix woman, complete with gravel voice.  At least Florida has moisture..

 

If you like high crime rates, poor schools at the state level, poor university system, smog, 1 million + illegal's and the trouble that comes along with that, and 6 month's of 110+ degree temperatures, you'll love Phoenix.

The girls in Phoenix are just knockouts - that's certainly a big reason that I'm fond of the city

 

:wtf:  Are you blind?

 

^true.... until they become women and their faces start to look like a catchers mit from all the UV rays ;)

Exactly what I was thinking!  Can you say Magda from There's something about Mary!

 

I'd say that's more florida

No, it's Phoenix..  The dry climate ends up sucking all of the moisture out of their body, sort of like how all of the water was sucked out of the land.  Leading to that typical raisin look of a 40 year-old Phoenix woman, complete with gravel voice.  At least Florida has moisture..

 

If you like high crime rates, poor schools at the state level, poor university system, smog, 1 million + illegal's and the trouble that comes along with that, and 6 month's of 110+ degree temperatures, you'll love Phoenix.

not to mention the other social ills.

On the plus side..  Phoenix does have a brown Christmas..  Of course, they also have a brown St. Patrick's Day, brown Memorial Day, brown 4th of July, brown Labor Day, and brown Thanksgiving.

 

That is unless you live on a golf course in Paradise Valley or Scottsdale, where BILLIONS of gallons of water have been dumped on a desert to make it green.  But rest assured, at least 25% of the Mom's living on the golf course saved a couple hundred gallons by washing their babies diaper.  LMAO!

The desert thing is somewhat of a broken record.  For example, some of the earliest civilizations thrived in deserts (Egypt, Iran, Ur, hell, most of the Middle East; Mali; even early Khan).  It's about water consumption/intake moreso than just building a city in the desert.  Phoenix's problem (which I believe they are trying to address much like Las Vegas) is that the population wastes water moreso than other counties.  I believe they are doing the water-recycle schtick, which is fine, but they need to plan out how to reduce water consumption to levels of Riyadh and not Atlanta.

 

Actually, Iran once (about 800 years ago) had some lush forests like Ohio, but after centuries of land abuse, war, ravage, etc.. they're gone. Human activity can turn a place into a desert, it is called "desertification" in a geological sense.....and in the case of Phoenix, where it already is one, they're operating already in a hole from the start. Again, what is happening there is unsustainable....and places man in a free falling state where he thinks he is flying.

 

Also, the cultures of which you note, did not have thousands of people per month moving onto the land consuming and asking of it as we do, that which it cannot provide in return. So, its not really a broken record thing when one compares apples to oranges. This occupation of a desert at the rate a Phoenix is experiencing and the consumerism that accompanies it...cannot be compared to smaller tribes of indigenous peoples. Even in Egypt, the life of the culture was the Nile River, its fertile banks and delta.

 

There is simply not enough water to sustain the kind of growth happening there without altering ecosystems elsewhere and creating a whole new host of damages to the environment. Ther broken record is really the catch all answer and idea that somehow "technology will find a way" so it relives humans od the responsibility to live within their means...and sends the message that they can go on living recklessness without accountability in how they use resources.

 

One of the answers that is slaughtering a sacred cow, and one no one wants to hear or admit...is that we simple need to curb the reproduction of ourselves. Much like how the still true Aborigines of Australia understand this concept with the "voluntary extinction" philosophy. Easter Island is a micro-cosm example of what happens when you take more than what is available.

 

By the way, they (Aborigines) were pushed into the desert by settlement from Europe....(British invasion) they didn't chose the place by choice. When Captain Cook arrived at Botany Bay, the indigenous lived where the forest was lush and where there was a lot of fresh water...which was near the coast. St. Georges River, Waronora River examples of life blood...and they didn't get FAT until they were exposed to the latest western diet...that's another story, though.  :-o 

I like SD a lot but I really think it's not a spanish-optional city and we don't know any spanish.

 

This is not true. You definitely do not need to know any Spanish to live in San Diego. There is of course a large Mexican population, but unless you live in the hispanic barrio it will not be an issue in day-to-day life. San Diego culture is still very much typical American.

The girls in Phoenix are just knockouts - that's certainly a big reason that I'm fond of the city

 

No way are the girls better-looking in Phoenix than the girls in Toledo and Cleveland. The Great Lakes are stacked to the top shelf (and the accent is cute too). For all the problems we have in northern Ohio, lack of hot women is not one of them (lack of smart, single, never married, childless women past age 25? Now we can have a discussion).

 

If you like high crime rates, poor schools at the state level, poor university system, smog, 1 million + illegal's and the trouble that comes along with that, and 6 month's of 110+ degree temperatures, you'll love Phoenix.

 

To be fair, Ohio has all these problems except illegal immigrants and 110-degree heat, but the outdoor tanning is just replaced with sorority-level indoor tanning.