Sewer work could mean major makeover for south Fairmount

MSD under court order to fix stormwater overflow

 

http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/region_west_cincinnati/fairmount/Sewer-work-could-mean-major-makeover-for-south-Fairmount

 

Two options are among the solutions being considered…

 

1) “Daylight” the storm water by putting it above ground in a canal and retention ponds that would be built in an area bordered by White Street, Queen City Avenue, Westwood Ave. and the Mill Creek. Property needs to be acquired for construction.

 

2) Construct a tunnel under the Mill Creek to move both waste and storm water to the Gest Street Treatment Plant. However, MSD officials say 75 percent of the flow is storm water, which does not need to be treated.

Anything historic in the area?

"The land in question contains a McDonald’s, Arby’s, Rally’s, Family Dollar and other businesses that might have to relocate."

 

I haven't seen the plan, but the lowest area contains all the fast food stuff, not the historic buildings.

There is a project website: http://www.projectgroundwork.org/

It's an interesting concept, but daylighting creeks in urban areas can backfire because it's a much more suburban typology.  It's a difficult situation though in South Fairmount because so much of the neighborhood has been decimated by road projects in the first place. 

$122M urban stream reclamation project includes potentially huge impacts

By: Randy A. Simes

February 25, 2011 – 12:30 pm

 

http://networkedblogs.com/eNw2z

 

South Fairmount businesses readying for Lick Run project

Business Courier

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/blog/2011/02/south-fairmount-businesses-readying.html

Options 3-5 could be great for the area. I could see Fairmont being an awesome little enclave of urban living if brought to its full potential.

It's an interesting concept, but daylighting creeks in urban areas can backfire because it's a much more suburban typology.  It's a difficult situation though in South Fairmount because so much of the neighborhood has been decimated by road projects in the first place. 

 

I disagree, a parkway with a creek can be quite the urban asset if done right.  Look up Minnehaha parkway in Minneapolis.  It's a low speed roadway along a creek with bike trails, is heavily used, and is big driver of property values in the areas immediately surrounding.

 

http://www.minneapolisparks.org/grandrounds/map_M1.htm

Mayor Mallory brought up this project in his State of the City Address last week. It will be interesting to see how this transpires, but this will be a massive undertaking and would dramatically change South Fairmount.

I covered this today on my Blog. City is already at demo stage .

http://victorianantiquitiesanddesign.blogspot.com/2011/05/msd-lick-run-project-is-demo-at-this.html

 

 

There has been NO section 106 reviews in fact I think they were caught with their pants down . They want to meet with Knox Hill about or concerns, ONCE I mentioned the 106 review. I had already contacted Larry Harris and no one had put him in the loop, he didnt even have a list of proposed demos.

 

There are roughly 2 dozen properties mostly along Westwood that would be demoed under this plan. A handful of these maybe 4-6 are Historic eligible under section 106 for study for relocation.

 

Typically this kind of Federal Funds project allocates for some relocation of historc buildings.  Indianpolis relocated 16 properties as part of the Canal project which recieved Federal funds so Cincinnati has NO EXCUSE!

 

I have no doubt the city doesnt want to move anything but since this is Federal they are not getting a way with wholesale demo because we can tie this up at state and Federal levels for 106 reviews of their decisions for some time.

 

The BIG problem is there is no 'historic overlay' for the properties opposite of the planned development where there area lot of potentially historic properties. Without an overlay, there is zero protection and intsead of the nice brick lined "Hyde Park" concepts they are selling it could be demoed for strip centers instead. A usual the south Fairmount Community Council is clueless.

 

City is going to have to provide REAL TRANSPARENCY on this with real Section 106 reviews and some promises IN WRITING, to protect the other side of the street from investor/speculator demos or thsi project is about to get slowed way down.

 

Ive attached the first round of demo proposals. 3 of these probaly have historic significance, one is an easy move . We are not yet to the Great houses and buildings, so we need to set a standard early on if we want to save the ones that should absolutely be saved!

 

Nice work, Paul.

We are doing a free Architectural walking tour of the Fairmount Business/residential district starting at 9:30 and meeting in  front of the Orion Academy. 1798 Queen City.

 

By our current count there are 40 plus structures eligible as contributing and the area would appear to meet the requirements for national Historic district. There are some incredible buildings you would not expect to still be there.

 

Big meeting Tuesday Evening (14th) where MSD presents their plans seeking 'community input' ay 7:30  at Orien Academy.

 

All told this will be the largest loss of historic fabric since the highway was built. I expect this to be a long drawn our preservation battle.

 

Paul I'd really like to go on Saturday but have a conflict.  Hope you have a good turn out.  By the way, the funeral home as I mentioned on your site may be Dornette.  According to Walter Langsam, Dornette did the Clifton Livery Stable & Garage so he has a history of the building type. My grandmother lived for a time at the turn of the century on Westwood Ave, about where the Rally's & Arby's currently sit.

Sewer Project Draws Out Citizens - Cincinnati Enquirer

 

More than 120 people packed a Thursday evening public hearing on massive public works project slated for South Fairmount to tell Metropolitan Sewer District bosses they want greater transparency, want their ideas heard and want South Fairmount’s history honored.

 

One after another, about dozen people – many from South Fairmount, which could be transformed by the project – had their one-minute say at MSD headquarters.

 

“This project must be based on the wants and needs of citizens,” said Elliot Ellis, South Fairmount’s Community Council president. “The alternative solution will last forever and a day.”

 

Hamilton County Administrator Christian Sigman told the crowd: “This is the biggest decision since the stadiums.”

 

 

Here is a good representation of the facts so far about the Lick Run Project. I heard a rumor that the South Fairmount Community Council voted to pursue historic designation for many of the buildings that could be demolished. Does anyone know if this is true? The article didn't mention anything about it.

From RestorationConsultant's blog

 

Today Elliot Ellis, president of South Fairmount Community Council formally notified Cincinnati Preservation Association of the community's intent to seek a national historic District status for the area in an effort to preserve many historic eligible and contributing structures MSD wants to demo as part of the daylighting project.

 

That move could make MSD plans far more difficult as they may have to work around those historic assets or spend millions to relocate them. Support for a potential historic district has broad based support. The firm of Gray and Pape who did a historic review as part of the Federal Section 106 process reported 29 properties that would meet historic eligibility within the APE (Area of Potential Effect). That many individually eligible structures combined with a fair number of relatively intact 'contributing structures" could well make for a viable  historic district

 

I want these buildings to be saved, but I think the only solution is to move them. IMO, the SFCC and KHNA need to provide some solutions instead of just fighting the project all together... I don't see this project simply being shelved or scrapped, and the county doesn't have the funds to build the underground tunnel...

Here is a very important point.

 

At this stage the 'green alternative was quoted at 317 MILLION at last nights meeting and that figure was in 2006 dollars. The facts are that the property MSD wants for this projects is going to cost major bucks. They paid 760K fo Arbys, 308K for St Bonaventure 155K for 3 unit apartment building alone.

 

A New York based  property bundler of investment property for redevelopment just bought a large numbers of vacant lots overlooking the proposed project and paid 20K per lot! Guess what that does to the appraisal process.

 

All the owners who are impacted have very good attorneys. I was at the last business group meeting and they have experts working for them. Did you know the businesses in the basin employ over 540 people and generate 61 Million a year in sales? These people can well afford to fight MSD and the county. It is doubtful given the Norwood case, that they county  can even use eminent domain. The remaining property MSD would need, and they are no where near the 70 percent EPA and Federal court would require them to have, to even approve the alternative will add Millions to the final cost, throw leagl fees in the mix and the numbers gets huge.

 

To just move the buildings Gray and Pape have listed at historic eligible will likely be 2-3 Million to move not to mention what they will have to pay for them in the first place and they don't own 4 of the key ones they need.

 

I guarantee if someone wanted to bulldoze 25 buildings in OTR to build a drainage canal there would be a lot of angry people. Our estimate are that we are looking at over 25 significant buildings lost. The preservation comunity should be very concerned because Lick Run is just the first phase of project that will be city wide over the next  two decades! What happens here will impact every neighborhood sooner or later and the precendents set here will impact preservation city wide eventually.

 

There is an internal report that puts the 'green alternative" for Lick Run at over 650 Million and that does NOT include the city and county coming in and actually doing redevelopment, that's just the cost to build a ditch and the infrastructure. mSD has been feedinga lot of mis-information about this project and last night some of the truth came out.

 

The facts are the only people who actually want this is MSD and some 'urban planning types' who don't even live in the neighborhood. The Sierra Club has come our AGAINST this project, that should indicate how 'green' it really is..

 

The neighborhood has a plan that involves National District status, establishment of a Main Street program that would market and redevelop the area. Creation of a mixed use retail/business district and strategy to slow traffic down. The leveraging of historic assets, the repurposing of current vacant lots as off street parking for retail, and greenspace and parks.

 

There is a good reason to be against this 'green alternative' , in the end it will cost as much to do as deep tunnel and somebody, city or county, would still have to come up with redevelopment money and NO ONE has the money to do that. So in the end we wind up with a community destroyed  with a drainage ditch running through it, and legal precedent that will  open up every community to the same possibility.

 

 

I just wanted to add something here. The daylighting would basically be used to allow sediment, lead and other contaiminents to settle in the retention areas of the project. We already know, from MSD's own admission last night that the fecal ecoli limits will far exceed EPA recomendation. For all the money spent, realstically none of Mill Creek will ever be able to be used as a recreational resourse because as they explained the levels at the beginning of the Mill Creek as it enters the county already exceed to levels and this project will (Tony Parrot's words) do nothing to address that issue.

 

Any idea what the S. Fairmount 'daylighted waterway' will smell like at low water flow levels? More importantly what developer would build next to what will smell like cesspool or who would want to patronize a business near that?

 

It is a badly designed project that has no grapse on reality which it probably why environmentalists like it. S Fairmount stuill will have industrial production and those contaminents will wash down the streets into this.

 

I will take the Proven deep tunnel over an open drainage ditch allbeit a pretty one!

I have a few issues with the statements you made:

 

*The county has a clear case for eminent domain. This is nothing like the Norwood case. In Norwood, they were proposing demolishing homes to give land to a developer because it was "blighted" and the city wanted to creat a huge shopping complex. The case is explicitly for a county project for public use, so the only issue for emminent domain would be the value of each property which would likely take months to complete, not years or decades. This is similar to takings in a road project or streetcar project. A historic designation would make it very difficult to follow through with, though but by no means impossible. I would support historic designation if it leads to daylighting the creek and moving the historic buildings out of the demolition zone.

 

*The 317 Million includes many things beyond just digging a hole and demolishing buildings. It also includes separating sewers from the neighborhoods built in the hillsides and surrounding neighborhoods so that rainwater doesn't have to be treated like sewage does.

 

*Calling it a drainage ditch is not a fair claim. It is going to be a creek (which was originally on the site before we shortsightedly filled it in). Drainage ditch implies that sewage will be running through the creek, which it will not.

 

*Private investment is going to be VERY difficult to get in the strip of South Fairmount without massive improvements to the roadways, transportation, or other public investment. Unfortunately (and I really do believe it is unfortunate) South Fairmount is not considered a "desireable" area where banks and other lending institutions would be willing to provide lots of loans for a business district. Without some large county or city project to help lift the area up out of the slump it is in I don't think the restoration of most of these buildings is likely.

 

*It is not in MSD's best interests to build the tunnel. The daylighting project ("green" alternative) would make it so that the rainwater collected in and around South Fairmount would simply be put into the Lick Run and eventually Mill Creek instead of being treated at the main treatment plant on Gest. Treating that water is a huge cost financially for MSD and any rainwater that can be redirected to the creeks is a long-term victory for MSD. Also, maintenance on those tunnels would be a lot of money for MSD in the future.

 

*I agree that people would be up in arms if the county wanted to replace 25 historic buildings in OTR with a creek. I would be upset too. I'm also upset that they are proposing the demolition of these buildings in South Fairmount. I am very supportive of historic preservation and I am glad there are people in South Fairmount who are devoted as well.

 

*Lick Run drains into the Mill Creek, so the issues with the Mill Creek are its own. The contaminants will not flow up into the Lick Run. As for the contaminants running into the Lick Run, most of the water is coming from the streets and grass on the hillsides surrounding the valley. Any sewage will be piped separately to the treatment facility. I also don't know if a huge tunnel can be built without the demolition of many of the buildings anyway (might be something to look into).

 

My number one fear is that South Fairmount Community Council succeeds in its fight against the county. The county builds the tunnel instead at a much higher cost to ratepayers. Then the neighborhood remains blighted for decades to come and a vast majority of those buildings that were saved get demolished by neglect/lack of private funding.

 

If the project goes forward by daylighting the creek I at least see the possibility that the entire stretch could be redesigned to allow for 2-way streets, bike paths, a comprehensive rail/bus transit center, a park, new development/renovation, and improved streetscaping. I hope that SFCC and the KHNA (I'm assuming you are a member) tries instead to raise funds and awareness to have the historic buildings relocated or getting a committment from MSD to work together to relocate the buildings. I strongly believe that working with them is better than against them. Neither side is going to get exactly what they want (most likely) so to try to compromise is the best possible solution (IMO).

 

I also realize that there are many businesses located along the stretch under the proposal, but if their lawyers/attorneys are that good, they should be able to get a decent price for their buildings and the cost of relocating their businesses to another location. I know it would be a hassle (a bit of an understatement, I admit) to move, but if they can get enough money out of the deal, it would be worth it.

 

Also, I consider myself an "environmentalist" and a "preservationist". I'm not oblivious to the negative aspects of the project, but I believe it is South Fairmount's best possibility to reestablish itself and become a "desireable" neighborhood again. I would love to discuss this issue further and I hope I can make it the public hearing on the 23rd.

 

*Full disclosure: I worked for MSD for about 9 months on co-op up until Summer 2011. I do not have "allegience" to the organization and I consider myself non-biased, but you can draw your own conclusions. I even did a little bit of work on this project, though I don't know a lot about the upper-management decision for this project. I was left in the dark about that.

At just about every stage of this project MSD has made 'assumptions' which were inaccurate and that has resulted in higher costs. It ts based on data modeling. I am well aware that figure includes other things but lets be realistsic we are talking about 2006 dollars.

 

MSD made several miscalculations:

 

One they admit in their own literature that this is part of  a larger redevelopment project. Some land acquired by the county for this project will be resold to developers to build non sewer related projects. That may well bring it into the realm of the Norwood case and that is something for those involved to determine in a court of law.Remember MSD is owned by the county and managed by the city and that creates a relationship between the three parties.

 

Mill Creek in its historic use was not used as water supply but was infact covered over because it was an open sewer. It also was not very large and at best a couple of feet deep. At times it dried up completely.

 

MSD miscalculated  the value of property and the values already paid exceed what the original estimates were.

 

There is only a best guess on the cost of brownfield remediation.

 

New EPA lead abatement requirements (2010) will add millions to demo costs and have still not been factored.

 

As for banks and lenders there has been substancial investment in Knox Hill (over 2 mill to date) I am working on a 350K project right now and my bank was more than happy to provide project funding. There is alot going on in Fairmount you are not aware of, nor was MSD.

 

There is no certainty that their are not Indian burial  sites, old cemetaries,or other archeological sites that could add millions to the project.

 

Road improvement will be done anyway as part of the Viaduct replacement.

 

As for this daylighting project you know there are places that did daylighting and did not recieve the benefits they initially  modeled would occur. EPA and the federal court may well be consider failures that have occurred with this approach.

 

They could also approve the daylighting and the modeling is wrong? Guess what? we are back to tunnel and more cost.

 

There is away to combine daylight and work around historic assets byt the reult is not aesthetically pleasing to those that vision the project.

 

Cincinnati is no differrent than any other city dealing with a consent decree and what happens if EPA is largely disbanded after this next election.. a great unknown.

 

 

 

^So, assuming both that there is a real problem here that must be addressed and that the current proposal is undesirable/unworkable, what is the alternative?

^So, assuming both that there is a real problem here that must be addressed and that the current proposal is undesirable/unworkable, what is the alternative?

 

Exactly.  If you don't like MSD's solution, then what do you propose they do instead?  The fact still remains that Lick Run is the single largest contributor to the combined sewer overflow problem in the system.  So if you don't approve of the proposals at hand, then you have to come up with some constructive alternatives.  Simply putting up roadblocks (even legitimate ones) doesn't help the situation. 

MsD's position is not helped by the fact they lied from day one.

 

We are in possesion of documentation that the plan was pretty much complete destruction of South Fairmount from the beginning .  The are was considered expendible. The plan MSD wants is their plan, not the community. They were presented with viable alternatives that would have preserved Historic assets early on.

 

Understand, this problem is a multi sided problem. the city drove down property values ( we believe intentionally by passing out VBML and condemn orders in unusally high numbers) to drive values down to make acquisition cheaper, in many respects 'redlining the area'.

 

What they didnt count on was Moodys advised the city that their was insufficient property tax base ( a problem the city created in South Faiormount) to financially support the payback and Moody's theathened to lower the Bond rating. FYI a statement EPA made at a conference when rolling out the Lick Run alternative. I have copies.

 

MSD cared nothing about the community, but in 2005 it has a bond rating problem now and if they do deep tunnel its wont be cheap. So the 'development' scheme was created. The problem is  the city, nor county, can afford it. You can do the ditch. No one knows the real cost because they are still figuing that out and their are lots a variables, but if you dont have the development your bond rating goes up.

 

The original belief was that they could do this far cheaper than deep tunnel . At this point their is about an 8 cent per unit cost differrence according to their own models . What is not considered is the cost to the additional  county and city taxpayer for redevelopment and that means all we are doing is shifting some sewer bill cost to property tax bills. We will pay the same either way and if the city/county can't pull off the redevelopment  (and we all know the city isn't good at redevelopment) we are left with a  ditch.

 

Essentially like the 1960-70 when we destroyed Kenyan Barr at a cost of 43 million and was only able to resell it to private developers for 7.2 million.

 

The community is not going to turn over its history and architecture for a pipedream.

 

At the end of the day they will wind up costing the same and bond rating will go down. No one wants to hear that, but its the truth.

 

MSD could come to the table and adopt one of the models the community wants but those old buildings do not make the mayor get 'all tingly'.

 

At this point we hope the county commissioners realize they could be in court for years and order MSD to the table for talks , if they dont? Well they brought that on themselves.

 

I suspect they will cone to the table rather than do deep tunnel.

 

Even with additional negotioation, the federal court could stick to the original consent decree and order deep tunnel, especially since MSD has been deceptive.

 

Its Cincinnati politics as usual, tell the public only what you want them to know and hope no one figures it all out.

 

Is it feasable to daylight the creek and keep the buildings (or at least most of them)?  I think their is too much green space anyway in the current green alternative.  I'm picturing the creek that runs through Gatlinburg where buildings and roads hug the creek.  Rock retaining walls are in place yet some buildings back right up to the creek. 

 

Obviously our creek isn't going to be this wide.

MSD could come to the table and adopt one of the models the community wants but those old buildings do not make the mayor get 'all tingly'.

 

What are the models the community wants?  Do you have a link to them?  This isn't a neighborhood I have much familiarity with, outside of driving through it occasionally.

Here's a recant article from the 'Warp

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2014/02/10/lick-run-project-is-innovative-but-will-it-work/5352363/

I heard the other day that the city is trying to cancel this project entirely and return all of the funding that has already been allocated to the project.

Weird...

But still pay all the pre-engineering work?  Or get sued to pay?

 

That is strange isn't it?

I believe I read that the City was canceling the widening of Westwood Ave. but the MSD work on Lick Run was continuing

Here is the website for the new version of the Lick Run project: http://www.projectgroundwork.org/projects/lowermillcreek/sustainable/lickrun/index.htm

 

The scope of the Lick Run Project remains the same, but there have been two changes since our last public meeting in December 2014:

 

- Due to budget constraints and potential impacts to the community, the City has decided to maintain Westwood and Queen City avenues as one-way streets.

 

- The fire station on State Avenue in South Fairmount is remaining in its current location.

 

As a result, modifications to the project design are necessary. These include realignment of the Harrison Avenue bridge over the urban waterway due to the transportation changes and resizing the pond at the eastern end of the urban waterway from about 2.4 acres to about 2 acres to keep the fire station.

"Potential impact to the community"? What, like nicer, calmer streets? Too bad the city can't put an amount on the increase in property values / investment along the streets and use that future amount to offset the cost of conversion today.

I drive here every day and had high hope for the first iteration, but this new plan will make the middle seem like a big highway median, and any hope of the Queen city side to get redeveloped as a quieter side neighborhood wont happen with 50mph traffic zooming right by their front door. At least the old oxbow part of queen city that went to two way traffic can survive as it's own little island. The rest in the middle looks set for demo and even the funeral parlor and other buildings that were supposedly for sale (as long as they were moved) sitting dark and stripped of their historic doors and stained glass. Even the businesses at harrison and queen city are all empty except for the stationary company BP and the graphics place on the corner. A dark sad few miles as it stands now from the viaduct all the way to almost Wyoming. At least in the summer people are in the park by Grand, hopefully that spreads into the new 'park' once complete but if they just reduce it to a dry creek bed and trail vs the themed neighborhood park that was promised i wonder how many people will bother to visit. I don't understand the logic here for changing course, other than the money promised for this will be used to pay for more popular projects that may or may not include biergardens elsewhere.

 

Disappointing.  I hope the change isn't due to spitefulness on Cranley's part because Roxanne Qualls was a player in the original plans.

Fairmount is a community that needs big changes, too bad the will isn't there to do what's necessary re: converting from one way to two way streets. Being conservative isn't a laudable trait when the status quo is broken.

I've heard rumors that this was indeed a Crancellation. Not directed at Qualls, but at some of the contractors that were going to do the work for the project.

So, as many predicted, an entire neighborhood of historic structures...some quite nice, have been erased off the map forever......all for NOTHING.

For the moment most of these buildings are still standing, excluding the one on the right with the Dunlop Billboard and the frame building on the left that has the pipe sign. All will be gone soon and I'm assuming the roads rerouted as well. Not a big loss architecture wise, but so little of this area remains as it was from that era. You would think that as a westsider, Mayor Cranley would press to have at least one of the gateways to the west not be depressing. No disrespect to the residents by any means it is totally the fault of boring short sighted planning. Demolition and wacky flyover bridges on 6th st, A slowly disappearing lower Price Hill on 8th st and a reduced scope vision for Harrison/Queen City.

Pretty damning article about spending at the MSD over the past 6 years.

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2016/02/03/special-report-680m-memo/79691776/

 

I'm disappointed to not see any discussion regarding *why* we as a county can't afford the upgrades. I believe that an honest discussion about that would have to touch on the facts that Hamilton County has lost 15% of its population since 1970 (two years after MSD was created). And at the same time, the existing population is spreading further out around the county. Both facts mean that there are fewer people to pay for more infrastructure. It's like we're trying to repair a leaky bucket but at the same time are actively poking more holes while also running out of repair materials.

Why did it take 2 years of Cranley/Black for them to suddenly accuse Dahony, etc., of high crimes? 

I say this as someone with absolutely zero understanding of how MSD operates... So in my understanding MSD was ordered by a court to make over $3 billion in upgrades/repairs to remedy the combined sewage/rainwater overflow situation. I think a reason we're not seeing good progress towards this goal is because of the sheer hugeness of that number. I mean that's like ordering someone making minimum wage to repay $1 million dollars or something. Psychologically they are not going to try too hard because it seems hopeless.

 

I think if the Feds are going to go around asking localities to pay out sums like that they should provide large chunks of funding. I mean these are legacy systems we are talking about here. Since the nation benefitted from a strong Cincinnati in the 1800s-1900s when the system was built why should we be put at a competitive disadvantage now vs. "newer" places that don't have to pay a huge bill like this to fix their sewer systems?

 

EDIT: and let me just add that I believe 100% that remedying this situation to keep wastewater out of the Ohio River is a worthwhile and necessary goal that the federal government should be pursuing.

The problems with MSD and the problems in Flint, MI are one and the same. Like chinkley[/member] said, the problems are financial, and why we have decided we "can't afford" the fix. Lead contamination and untreated sewage overflows are the potholes of buried water infrastructure. They are the only visible signs of cracks in the system that will convince our leaders and ourselves to pay up.

 

We do not have a culture of maintenance, any more. We don't take care of our stuff. You have to believe that the root of this is too few people per infrastructure unit that requires support. The Ohio DOT recent policy announcement of "fix it first" was an amazing positive step in the right direction. It one fell swoop it seems to have acknowledged we don't have the resource base to keep building new infrastructure, and also said that you need to spend money on preventive maintenance and not just fix the worst thing first, cause that saves a lot in the long run. To put that into action for something like the City of Cincinnati, it means double the size of your painting crew, and attack the rust. These are things that my Dad, who could barely use a hammer, taught me, as I'm sure many Dads have done.

 

There are tons of other related problems, like sewage and drainage billing that doesn't make sense. If the costs of the fix hinge upon building a system big enough to handle the largest storm flows, why doesn't my bill charge me rationally for the amount of surface runoff that my development generates and deposits into the combined sewer? I could install a buried tank with holes in the bottom that would return the first 1000+ gallons of rainwater to the earth from each rainfall event, but 1) it'd probably be illegal, and 2) I'd get no rate reduction from doing so.

 

Still, my water bill is just now approaching my cable bill, and it delivers drinking water and takes my sh*t way, every time I ask. But time warner is not the government, so something must be very very wrong.

 

The remaining building between Queen City and Westwood avenues in South Fairmont will soon be demolished for the Lick Run project. This includes several historic buildings in addition to a former Rally's and former UDF.

 

 

 

 

 

I hope that it's worth it in the end.

Did you take these last week Travis? I think i drove past you as you walked up Queen City towards Grand Ave. Haha! I was wondering if I'd see pics here.

I hope that it's worth it in the end.

 

Same. I hope that the money is still there by the time the project starts. These buildings shouldn't have been built in the first place but boy, some nice ones are being taken down.

Did you take these last week Travis? I think i drove past you as you walked up Queen City towards Grand Ave. Haha! I was wondering if I'd see pics here.

 

Yeah, I was walking around the area on Sunday taking photos. We even went inside a few of the buildings, and they were in good condition... someone could be living there if they weren't being torn down.

I thought so I should have stopped and introduced myself, but i know when im out taking pics of empty places with my cameras the last thing i want is a random guy out of no where surprising me. The brick buildings with the quoins was really well maintained up until this project just like several others like you said. Im not sure if you saw it on another thread, but I found the entry to the funeral home and lives on at 12th and clay in the remodeled facade of the new mens facility. There used to be a part that said CHAPEL above that and i just recently saw it at 3G Stonecraft in Northside which in a random coincidence is owned by my neighbor. I keep meaning to ask if it is for sale. https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1087032,-84.5120577,3a,51.3y,320.28h,91.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPxxbdpL6QxIdz8wu40XKLg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1253814,-84.5587233,3a,40.3y,343.05h,92.19t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sNOQqfNq20aAEkUUW4lB8hg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DNOQqfNq20aAEkUUW4lB8hg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D4.868884%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

 

The area around Harrison and Westwood was demolished starting last week, and yesterday they started demolishing the first of the properties they half hardheartedly tried to "preserve" to get some goodwill on their website. Admittedly it was a hard sell as whoever bought them would have to move them. This former Convent is the first of those to go.

It is amazing how many people and how much equipment are on site for this now. Today on the way past i saw more dump truck in one place than I ever have before, and I drive I-75 from the Viaduct to Evendale every day. There were probably 20 or more empty ones lined up where the new Harrison crossing will be and earth movers everywhere today.

Yeah, only 2-3 buildings left and 20+ pieces of heavy equipment.