Has there been anything stated about the plan for the land to the north of the "park" and south of Queen City Ave? Seems like from Quebec to Grand, there will be a lot of developable parcels. According to CAGIS, those parcels (with a few exceptions) are owned by Hamilton County Board of Commissioners. 

 

 

Let's drop a circa-2002 condo complex green space into the middle of a working class late 1800s neighborhood and see what happens.  

 

The walls and railings and bridges and gazebo are cheesy.  It's like if Boston City Hall was a park.  

 

There is so much green space along Queen City. Are they eventually going to start selling off some of that land for redevelopment? Not all of it needs to be grass, and having some development would definitely help the park space get more utilization. You could fit thousands of units in this space.

 

Starting at 1:30 in that video all of the land west of Grand Avenue is what I'm mostly thinking of.

I am not sure it will be developed over - although I was surprised to see a lone house and business left behind. The goal was to eliminate the flooding issues that were caused by the burial of the stream and the paving over of much of the watershed.

I'd like to see that same drone flyover immediately after a big rain, like we had today. 

3 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

There is so much green space along Queen City. Are they eventually going to start selling off some of that land for redevelopment? Not all of it needs to be grass, and having some development would definitely help the park space get more utilization. You could fit thousands of units in this space.

 

Starting at 1:30 in that video all of the land west of Grand Avenue is what I'm mostly thinking of.

 

It seems like those are parcels to be developed on. And it would be a travesty if they aren't. I walked the length of it the other day and it is NICE. This could have the potential to be one of the nicest parks in the region if it is paired with significant development and road diets for Queen City and Westwood Aves.

1 minute ago, seicer said:

I am not sure it will be developed over - although I was surprised to see a lone house and business left behind. The goal was to eliminate the flooding issues that were caused by the burial of the stream and the paving over of much of the watershed.

 

Honestly, the grassy lawn next to the stream is probably not crucial to the water retention. They spent years diverting the storm water from the neighborhoods around the Lick Run so that they could separate the storm water from the waste water.

 

They could even require a specific amount of water be diverted from the system for any development that goes into the space immediately adjacent. Require a green roof to make it a net zero impact.

4 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

There is so much green space along Queen City. Are they eventually going to start selling off some of that land for redevelopment? Not all of it needs to be grass, and having some development would definitely help the park space get more utilization. You could fit thousands of units in this space.

 

Yeah, my guess/hope is that the long, blank green rectangle was intentionally left "undesigned", with the aim of getting something built on it. I'd like to see the curbside lane of Queen City Ave dedicated for parking to provide a buffer to the sidewalk (and whatever gets built there). 

The stream/park only occupies the southern half of the blocks. There's a clear delineation that makes it look like they intend to develop the northern half. This should be super dense residential/mixed use. 

 

Where did you find that image @DEPACincy? The most recent CAGIS imagery isn't quite that up to date.

Just now, ryanlammi said:

Where did you find that image @DEPACincy? The most recent CAGIS imagery isn't quite that up to date.

 

Proprietary haha. 😉

From the aerial, it looks like it is designed for development. I wonder what the market will bear for that downtrodden corridor?

I tried to conservatively get an estimate for square footage from CAGIS.

 

 

 

So there are 4 large blocks that are able to be developed. From west to east:

 

42,500 sf between Quebec and Van Hart

47,400 sf between Van Hart and Kebler

9,000 + 38,100 sf between Kebler and Grand

 

That's over 136,000 sf of lots ready for development. Theoretically, the fill they placed is ready to support development, so soil issues shouldn't be a problem. The rest is very pie in the sky, but:

 

I imagine you could do a single hallway along the length of the street with apartments either facing north or south with sweeping views. I know this may be really optimistic, but assuming you have parking on the first floor, and use the upper 3 floors of a 4 story building to be apartments, that would give you over 400,000sf of apartments. With 10% of sf dedicated to common space like hallways, elevators, etc, you have 366,000 sf of pure apartments. Make them large apartments with 2-3 bedrooms averaging 1200sf each, and that's 305 apartments. Smaller apartments and you're easily between 400-500 apartments.

 

So every additional floor could give you an additional 100 large units. Partner with a developer seeking LIHTC housing, and you can fill a huge number of affordable units on a ready to build site. Right next to a brand new park.

 

Honestly, I would love to see something like 5 stories built here. It could really densify this corridor.

They got rid of the combined sewer, only to worsen the traffic sewer. 

51 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

The stream/park only occupies the southern half of the blocks. There's a clear delineation that makes it look like they intend to develop the northern half. This should be super dense residential/mixed use. 

 

 

Sounds like a perfect spot for a triple drive through Chick-fil-a 

2 hours ago, atlas said:

They got rid of the combined sewer, only to worsen the traffic sewer. 

 

Derek Bauman has specifically said he supports road diets/two-way conversion here so at least one council candidate is on the record.

In the Mallory era plan for Lick Run, both streets would have been converted back to two-way. That part of the project got crancelled.

6 hours ago, atlas said:

They got rid of the combined sewer, only to worsen the traffic sewer. 

 

Yep, and they have now completely whitewashed what was the most intensely urban area of the city west of the Mill Creek.  When I was a kid it was similar to the McMillan/Calhoun pair.  The high railroad trestle was still there.  There were reversable lane signs on the lower deck of the viaduct and then on Queen City from the McDonald's up to Rapid Run.  Queen City made what felt like snake S-turns as it climbed out of this valley. 

 

They tore down several dozen homes to straighten and widen Queen City back around 2005.  The current project removed all of the great road quirks that remained except for the goofy streetcar tunnel coming up from the viaduct (that used to change directions midday).  It used to be the case that you had to turn left to go right and turn right to go left when you came off the viaduct.  No more. You now use the left lane to turn left and the right lane to turn right, which is lame. 

 

Also, a single house somehow survived the slaughter.  I don't know if this was a real estate holdout or what.  There was tons of mystery surrounding this project from Day 1.  It was never really advertised that there were going to be these large developable lots.  Cranley knew, of course, and Ndukwe probably has already been promised a piece of the action.

 

 

Edited January 26, 20214 yr by jmecklenborg

7 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

The city seriously didn't put crosswalks for the trail on these little connector streets? So, anyone wanting to walk the length of the trail will have to jaywalk, and of course that means there are no curb cuts for wheelchair users, so they'll have to detour over to the street.

1 hour ago, taestell said:

 

The city seriously didn't put crosswalks for the trail on these little connector streets? So, anyone wanting to walk the length of the trail will have to jaywalk, and of course that means there are no curb cuts for wheelchair users, so they'll have to detour over to the street.

Is this a question or a statement of fact? I walked it, and I thought there were crosswalks... but maybe I'm mis-remembering (it was a couple of months ago).

There are crosswalks (I drove this stretch last Friday) but they are not well placed and there are fewer on the Westwood Ave side.

 

Another concern I have is that it appears both sides have rush-hour restricted parking. I wanted to stop and check out the park on the Westwood side but decided against risking a crash in a lane nobody else was parking in.

19 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

Is this a question or a statement of fact? I walked it, and I thought there were crosswalks... but maybe I'm mis-remembering (it was a couple of months ago).

 

In the image Jake posted and I quoted in my previous post, there does not appear to be a marked crosswalk or curb cuts at the trail. I have not been by to see it in person.

1 hour ago, JYP said:

There are crosswalks (I drove this stretch last Friday) but they are not well placed and there are fewer on the Westwood Ave side.

 

Another concern I have is that it appears both sides have rush-hour restricted parking. I wanted to stop and check out the park on the Westwood side but decided against risking a crash in a lane nobody else was parking in.

 

At the VERY least the parking needs to be made 24/7 like Hamilton Avenue. It's amazing how the city gets these small details wrong so often. Hamilton Avenue would've never happened if it wasn't for the community screaming for it and OKI helping out with the traffic study.

 

I'm a little confused here. The area between QCA and Westwood Ave is currently zoned CC-A. Why would they not rezone pieces of it to Park and the rest to at least CC-M? The land is owned by HamCo so maybe it doesn't really matter. It will likely end up as a a PD but it seems like they just don't want to bother splitting the parcels up ATM.

1 hour ago, Dev said:

I'm a little confused here. The area between QCA and Westwood Ave is currently zoned CC-A. Why would they not rezone pieces of it to Park and the rest to at least CC-M? The land is owned by HamCo so maybe it doesn't really matter. It will likely end up as a a PD but it seems like they just don't want to bother splitting the parcels up ATM.

 

I'm not entirely sure I understand what's going on, but here's what the website says: https://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/planning/planning-projects-and-studies/active-ongoing/proposed-zone-changes-in-south-fairmountlick-run-greenway/

Quote

The current zoning of the area between Queen City Avenue and Westwood Avenue is CC-A with the exception of the property owned by the City of Cincinnati and operated by the Cincinnati Recreation Commission which is zoned PR. Once re-platted, the property within the Lick Run greenway will be proposed to be rezoned from CC-A to PR. Since the exact replat is unknown at this time, the Department of City Planning and Engagement recommends that there are two phases of zone changes:

1. Phase 1: Property south of Westwood Avenue and north of Queen City Avenue
2. Phase 2: Property between Westwood Avenue and Queen City Avenue, once the replat is complete

 

^Okay thanks, that's what I get for not clicking through

https://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/planning/about-city-planning/city-planning-commission/mar-17-2023-packet/

 

Planning staff is recommending approval for the rezoning of large swaths of South Fairmount, starts on page 192.

Cincinnati looks to revitalize South Fairmount

 

Decades before an assortment of fast-food and car-oriented businesses were razed to make way for the Lick Run Greenway project, South Fairmount had a thriving commercial district where people could walk from their homes on the hills to the butcher, the baker or the candle maker.

 

That is the community’s vision once again now that the greenway, a long strip of parkland with a once-buried stream that has been brought to the surface, is a reality.

 

The Cincinnati Planning Commission voted Friday to rezone 460 properties with 163 property owners affected. Community members hope it will lead to new investment in businesses, restaurants, retail and housing.

 

“We’ve been very supportive of the greenway project and the rebirth it could bring to our neighborhood,” said Jim Casey, the president of the South Fairmount Community Council. “It really is our desire to return to that walkable community we used to live in. We did lose a number of residents through the construction of the greenway.”

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/03/21/cincinnati-looks-to-revitalize-south-fairmount.html

 

Not sure if this is the best thread, but noticed this: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/04/05/landsman-federal-funding-suggestions.html

 

Quote

Port of Greater Cincinnati Redevelopment Authority Lunkenheimer Revitalization: Landsman asked for $2.8 million of the project’s $3.2 million cost. The project would rehabilitate an abandoned 150,000 square foot building and site formerly used as a foundry and manufacturing facility in South Fairmount.

 

19 hours ago, jwulsin said:

Not sure if this is the best thread, but noticed this: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/04/05/landsman-federal-funding-suggestions.html

 

 

 

I thought that The Port already got funds for that project from the state. Cost increases?

2 hours ago, Dev said:

 

I thought that The Port already got funds for that project from the state. Cost increases?

Not sure which funds you're thinking of, but The Port did receive $1.7 in brownfield remediation funds for the Lunkenheimer last year: https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/hamilton-county/amid-shortage-of-industrial-sites-seven-in-hamilton-county-get-money-for-clean-up

 

I'm not sure how that relates to what was announced last week (asking for $2.8 million out of a $3.2 million budget).

1 hour ago, jwulsin said:

Not sure which funds you're thinking of, but The Port did receive $1.7 in brownfield remediation funds for the Lunkenheimer last year: https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/hamilton-county/amid-shortage-of-industrial-sites-seven-in-hamilton-county-get-money-for-clean-up

 

I'm not sure how that relates to what was announced last week (asking for $2.8 million out of a $3.2 million budget).

Yup, that's exactly what I was thinking of. It's just one building/property right? Otherwise, I'm wondering if they already used the $1.7 million and this is the next phase or if they lost access to those funds for whatever reason.

Some more info and context around the plans and vision for the Lunkenheimer building: https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2023/05/03/what-will-happen-to-the-lunkenheimer-factory/70093515007/

Recent bid package for FY23 DOTE has these speed bumps on Westwood, nothing on QCA.

 

 

First step towards making this neighborhood viable for a walkable business district, hope they follow up with plans for a proper road diet.

Edited May 25, 20232 yr by dnymck

Here are some photos from last Sunday, 5/21/23.  Apparently the small trees that have been planted along the new creek are all clones of a moon tree that was cut down to make way for the redevelopment.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Moon trees:

 

 

 

Does anyone know why this one row building survived?  Will the vacant lots be developed?

29 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

Does anyone know why this one row building survived?  Will the vacant lots be developed?

All the vacant lots are still owned by the county. I have not heard anything about their plans for them though.

11 minutes ago, Dev said:

All the vacant lots are still owned by the county. I have not heard anything about their plans for them though.

Pretty sure it was a owned by someone who refused the buyouts as it looked like a family lived there for years before all the demos happened but before they were done with all the construction  it looked liked they moved out/passed away or it changed hands. I dont know for sure that is what went down, but i passed thru this area for years until i realized River Road was a much calmer drive to work. I still dont know why that whole  side of the street was demoed, it looked like all the tunneling took place along Westwood Ave and Queen City Ave didnt even get widened at that part.

34 minutes ago, SleepyLeroy said:

Pretty sure it was a owned by someone who refused the buyouts as it looked like a family lived there for years before all the demos happened but before they were done with all the construction  it looked liked they moved out/passed away or it changed hands. I dont know for sure that is what went down, but i passed thru this area for years until i realized River Road was a much calmer drive to work. I still dont know why that whole  side of the street was demoed, it looked like all the tunneling took place along Westwood Ave and Queen City Ave didnt even get widened at that part.

 

A strip mall also remains intact:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1259364,-84.5538278,164m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

 

The design of the whole thing is bizarre.  Why isn't the Lick Run Bike Path contiguous?  They could have run it next to the creek, under each of the overpasses, in the way that they did under Harrison Ave.: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1256092,-84.5480993,66m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

 

Instead, it jogs around without any rhyme or reason:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1257467,-84.5589714,116m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

 

We ought to be able to walk or ride a bike along the creek for its entire length.  Nope, can't do it.  

 

Is the sloping along the creek going to be allowed to overgrow and turn into woods?  Nobody knows.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

54 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

Is the sloping along the creek going to be allowed to overgrow and turn into woods?  Nobody knows.  

I'm not sure what you mean by "overgrow into woods" but you raise an interesting question. How long does the consent decree require MSD to maintain the park, and is there any long-term plan for transitioning this to Cincinnati Parks (or another management entity)?

 

Based on the renderings as well as what has been implemented, it's clear that the intention has always been for there to be trees long the banks of the creek (but I wouldn't call it "woods"). If this project continues to be well maintained over the next generation, and the streets are calmed down a bit, it could grow into a really neat and unusual urban park.

 

https://www.projectgroundwork.org/projects/lowermillcreek/sustainable/lickrun/alternative/Lick_Run_Greenway.htm

14 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "overgrow into woods"

 

Will they cut back the overgrowth along the banks or let it go wild?  

 

As for the rest of the landscaping...are they finished?  Are they going to plant any larger trees anywhere?  It's going to take 40 years for the moon trees to grow into something substantial.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, SleepyLeroy said:

Pretty sure it was a owned by someone who refused the buyouts as it looked like a family lived there for years before all the demos happened but before they were done with all the construction  it looked liked they moved out/passed away or it changed hands. I dont know for sure that is what went down, but i passed thru this area for years until i realized River Road was a much calmer drive to work. I still dont know why that whole  side of the street was demoed, it looked like all the tunneling took place along Westwood Ave and Queen City Ave didnt even get widened at that part.

There were tons of great buildings taken down for this. I agree that many more could have been left standing.  Just an awful outcome at this point. Another city neighborhood is razed and replaced by a park surrounded by a freeway for suburbanites to pass thru to Green Township. Pathetic.

16 minutes ago, TheCOV said:

There were tons of great buildings taken down for this. I agree that many more could have been left standing.  Just an awful outcome at this point. Another city neighborhood is razed and replaced by a park surrounded by a freeway for suburbanites to pass thru to Green Township. Pathetic.

 

Not just that, but the original route of Queen City Ave. was...awesome.  It was a narrow road with a variable-direction center lane.  It had green arrows and red X's...the light boxes looked like somebody's Eagle Scout project.  They tore down a bunch of homes to straighten and widen it, leaving this odd segment: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Fairmount,+Cincinnati,+OH+45214/@39.1287339,-84.5689346,497m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x8841b439d8c4ffe5:0x8b8e5d9379d82649!8m2!3d39.1276349!4d-84.5532949!16s%2Fm%2F04bfw6y?entry=ttu

 

They weren't content to let this area be a low-rent area.  There are many ways in/out of the west side - it's not as if this is the only option.  

24 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

 

Not just that, but the original route of Queen City Ave. was...awesome.  It was a narrow road with a variable-direction center lane.  It had green arrows and red X's...the light boxes looked like somebody's Eagle Scout project.  They tore down a bunch of homes to straighten and widen it, leaving this odd segment: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Fairmount,+Cincinnati,+OH+45214/@39.1287339,-84.5689346,497m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x8841b439d8c4ffe5:0x8b8e5d9379d82649!8m2!3d39.1276349!4d-84.5532949!16s%2Fm%2F04bfw6y?entry=ttu

 

They weren't content to let this area be a low-rent area.  There are many ways in/out of the west side - it's not as if this is the only option.  

I remember driving on this original section to run errands for my employer in the 1990's. And I agree with you they made things worse by extending the four lane freeway by demoing half of original QCA. I also agree there are many ways in and out of the westside. Especially now that I am familiar with it.

Sadly, they should have left this area intact as much as possible. Then, they should have leveraged past investment in WWN BLVD. It'd be nothing to remove the spattering of buildings along that route to create a car sewer. So many of the buildings along there are substandard, or unattractive due to the extreme parcel conditions, and the resulting stairways and driveways needed to access the structure. Or at least create rear service roads to remove driveways and street parking on the BLVD.

Thanks for the photos!

 

It looks to me they did a pretty good job of planting native plants in the greenway along the creek, these will stay I am sure and if those are sycamore trees, they will be left standing I would guess.

 

A big thing in landscaping now is maintenance free ie removing the mulch and using greenery native to the area so it self sustains.

 

They will probably need to go through it a couple times a year removing invasives or other tree saplings that come through. This is basically one huge bioswale, helping soak up a lot of the pollutants and excess water before it drops to Mill Creek.

 

Sycamore trees grow about 2 feet per year so they will be better size in 5 years.

On 6/1/2023 at 1:34 PM, IAGuy39 said:

if those are sycamore trees

They are not only Sycamore trees, they are cloned cuttings from the moon tree that was cut down during construction. The tree was planted from seeds taken to space in 1971 when Apollo 14 went to the moon. It was a 'second generation' moon tree and they created grafts off the roots to make clones to propagate the new lick run greenway. I have one of the clones in my yard and when I bought it, it was about 3' tall and now it's over 7 feet tall. https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2016/12/29/tree-seeds-went-moon-set-cut-down-but-its-legacy-survive/91510660/

1 hour ago, ucgrady said:

They are not only Sycamore trees, they are cloned cuttings from the moon tree that was cut down during construction. The tree was planted from seeds taken to space in 1971 when Apollo 14 went to the moon. It was a 'second generation' moon tree and they created grafts off the roots to make clones to propagate the new lick run greenway. I have one of the clones in my yard and when I bought it, it was about 3' tall and now it's over 7 feet tall. https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2016/12/29/tree-seeds-went-moon-set-cut-down-but-its-legacy-survive/91510660/

 

Where/how did you get one of the clones?  

 

It's kind of amazing that these things ended up in a forgotten part of town, not next to the Krohn Conservatory, or some higher-profile locale. 

 

 

Lagergren Nursery is the one that did the grafting and clippings, they had extra and sold them off through their own nursery and what they had leftover as part of the Boone County Arboretum fall plant sale (highly recommend), where nurseries from all around the region show up and sell whatever they have left that needs to get planted before winter.