I thought it would nice to have a place to just have random discussion, especially tied to one specific city.

 

I was just thinking, the area north of CSU, East of east 12th, and west of I90 has a ton of potential. Not in the near future but more long term. Imagine a residential tower in that area. Great views of both the city and the lake. I think most of that area(not all) could be demolished, mostly insignificant buildings with little to no use. Thats just my random thought.

Um... Reserve Square?!?

Um... Reserve Square?!?

 

No, more like these views...

 

 

It's funny that you bring this up because I thought the exact same thing driving through there today.  It is in very close proximity to downtown, there is not much there now to get in the way of future development and it also borders CSU and Asiatown.

I think we need to make it through Avenue District phases 2 and 3 before having any discussion of a high-rise.

Its a different concept then the avenue district and I said I know this wouldn't happen anytime soon, more of a longterm thought. These residencies would provide excellent views of the lake, burke airport, and skyline. I feel like they would have a potential to be a hit. And most of that area(no name that I know of) is nothing significant enough worth keeping.

^You would be surprised by the number of strong small businesses in the area you describe.

^You would be surprised by the number of strong small businesses in the area you describe.

Agreed. Take a walk around that neighborhood and you see that it's not as empty as it might look on a map.

^You would be surprised by the number of strong small businesses in the area you describe.

Agreed. Take a walk around that neighborhood and you see that it's not as empty as it might look on a map.

 

Certain areas of it are healthier than others, but there still is a lot of available space in crappy buildings. I have been over there before. I think that superior avenue is the best stretch, but the lesser know streets like Hamilton dont appear to be doing as well. Even parts of lakeside and st claire look to be in bad condition. Again I know nothing like this would happen anytime soon, just seems like a perfect area of the city for future development. You could even extend the waterfront line to serve the new neighborhood.

Yes, the NE quadrant of downtown has great potential. There are a lot of cool warehouses (especially down Superior) that could be reused as well as a good amount of insignificant 1-story structures that could be replaced. I think you will have to see the warehouse district built out and the CSU area really take off before it will happen though. A big reason why I like the idea of turning the waterfront line into a downtown loop is because it would serve this area. I believe this was a busy residential district back in the day filled with dense apartment blocks. Imagine if all that would have been preserved.

Chester was lined with apartment buildings back in the day.  We have some picture somewhere on here.  But I believe the majority of this area was always industry.

Maybe the city should rezone the area for the future. Right now the majority of it is zoned for light industry. Right now it appears that the city plans changing it to commercial services

Does anybody know if there has ever been any talk on a pedestrian bridge from the east to west bank of the flats? I think it would interesting if the city did something along the lines of this...

 

 

 

 

Model of a similar bridge

^ that's pretty sweet. Where is it?

 

^ Newcastle England to Gateshead England

I've always had this incredibly far-fetched idea about Scranton Peninsula... I think it's a really good location for a college campus. I'm thinking the campus would be in the big space between Scranton and Carter roads, and all the spaces between the roads and the river would be great for residential and mixed-use developments.

 

I know starting a new college/university, especially in today's day and age, is a very difficult thing to do, but it's been done before. Many of the smaller colleges/universities in the region (Chancellor, OCPM, Virginia Marti) could possibly combine into one university, add classes, and move to that location.

 

I'm fully aware of how unlikely this idea is, I just like to dream big and I know how much of a boost another university campus could be to Cleveland's economy. Pittsburgh was lucky enough to have so many successful universities, which contributed greatly to Pittsburgh's recovery. 

Why are most of our rapid transit lines secluded from the surrounding areas? I feel like if we built neighborhoods surrounding the rails we would see ridership go up and reinvestment in surrounding areas.  Imagine developing like <a href="http://c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000PpLnXoBCuKQ/s/750/750/Charlotte-NC-The-CATS-Light-Rail-Line-passing-through-the-South-End-neighborhood.jpg">this</a> all along a rail line.

 

The red line is heavy rail, not exactly a beacon for developers because of the freight traffic.  The green and blue lines were built with the specific purpose of servicing the suburbs which look down on you lowly lake level folk.  Don't forget that there was a massive street car system in the City when the rapid was built.  I believe it was intended as more of a long range commuter

The Blue Line was in place, but the Red Line was put in service after the streetcars were gone.  And despite not being a beacon for development, the Red Line has a much higher ridership.

^But the Red Line's route was planned by the VS's in the 1920s.  KJP just addressed this in the RTA tread: the Red Line was built on the cheap in a way that required no little or no ROW acquisition.  And the Shaker Lines were built as a real estate development tool, to provide as fast a journey as possible from Shaker Hts to downtown, not as part of an integrated regional transit system.  Even if the ROW were available, I doubt any of these lines would be built today given their routes and meager ridership.

 

Also, these routes were not quite as secluded when first built: the city has crumbled a bit around them, especially on the East Side, in the City of Cleveland and East Cleveland (which used to have terrific density near its Red Line stations).

 

 

Here's some great numbers for ya:

 

In 1960, the Red Line (City of Cleveland-owned CTS Rapid) plus the Blue/Green Lines (the City of Shaker Heights-owned Shaker Rapid) combined carried 60,000 riders per day. Today, these three lines carry 30,000 daily.

 

But that's nothing.... In 1925, the streetcar lines on St. Clair, Superior and Euclid EACH carried 100,000 riders per day. The Detroit, Lorain and West 25th car lines EACH carried in excess of 80,000 riders daily. And, the city's pre-1941 streetcar operator, Cleveland Railway Co., advertised "There's always a car in sight" meaning you didn't have to wait long for the next streetcar.

 

Rail ridership depends on all of these things: frequency of service, quality/cleanliness of service, memorable advertising, and density/mixed use of neighborhoods served by the rail line. And we used to have conglomerates of real estate companies, electric utilities and electric railways all under the same ownership, or interlocking directorates, or shared ownership interests. So the electric railway (streetcars, interurbans, rapid transit) were built to make accessible the rural lands outside the crowded, dirty cities. The real estate component of the trusts then developed the land with what we today would consider as dense/mixed-use, and electric utility side of things would sell electricity to all the new homes and businesses, as well as they expanded rail services.

 

That was before the 1930s and the "bust the trust" (a trust was an anti-competitive conglomerates) movement brought us lawsuits to break up the electric railway trusts, as well the public highways to reduce the monopolistic power of the railroads. Ironically, what we got was the monopolistic power of the highway industry.

 

But the Red Line, although it was originally mapped out and partially built in the 1920s, wasn't finished and put into operation until 1955. Cleveland and the nation was a much different place by then. And after a Great Depression and a World War when no one was developing any real estate, we had forgotten how to build cities for people. That was aided by the highway boys who funded civil engineering schools -- they were the only people designing cities back then, and they were being designed to move cars, more and faster. It's a big reason why Cleveland and other American cities became pretty inhospitable.

 

In a twist of fate, the near-total industrial abandonment along the Red Line and the inner portion of the Blue/Green Lines represents a remarkable opportunity to redevelop those areas with transit-oriented development. Here are some things that public officials (at the GCRTA, the city, county, state and feds) can do to assist this:

 

1. put a higher priority on cleaning up brownfield sites within 2,500 feet of Rapid transit stations (there are dozens of neglected EPA Superfund sites along the Red Line between East 55th and University Circle -- it's why that area is rural);

2. establish TOD zoning overlays for these areas;

3. make private developments in these areas eligible for a basket of incentives (green tax credits, tax abatement, location-efficient mortgages, low/no-interest loans, expedited city approvals, expedited court hearings to remove liens, land assembly assistance, etc.)

4. new or relocated public-sector offices would be required to locate within 1,000 feet of a GCRTA Rapid transit station (just as the General Services Administration is requiring all new federal offices to locate near Washington Metro stations in D.C.);

5. all new CMHA mixed-income developments are to be located within 2,500 feet of a GCRTA Rapid transit station and be constructed with specific mixed-use/density requirements to encourage pedestrian and transit accessibility.

 

Those are my suggestions for turning the fallow land around the Red, Blue and Green lines into a ridership-rich hinterland for our underutilized rail system.

Thanks a lot KJP! Thats what I feel about our rapid system, its underutilized. Even with the shrinking population, I feel that we are able to increase ridership, simply, but difficultly, developing around the tracks. Whats the stations with the highest ridership? I would guess the airport of course, but for the green and blue, I would guess shaker square because of the development around it, and maybe green because of the large parking lot and its proximity to neighborhoods.

 

And mass transit doesn't have to be for the poor, which some believe, it can be greatly utilized by high wealth individuals if they are given an efficient neighborhood option to live in near transit.

A few years ago these were the top five rail stations by ridership (if I remember correctly):

 

1. Tower City Center

2. Windermere

3. Brookpark

4. Ohio City-W.25th

5. Puritas-W.150th

Does anybody know if there has ever been any talk on a pedestrian bridge from the east to west bank of the flats? I think it would interesting if the city did something along the lines of this...

 

 

Yes, there has been, but most died out when the East Bank died. And there was even a serious effort to build an aerial tram within the substructure of the Main Avenue/Shoreway bridge. GCRTA was even considering taking that project on.

Holy crap, take a look at the available real estate south of the East 79th station. If the city/developer could get a hold of the whole property you could definitely get an awesome development, its like starting new.

 

Do streetview

 

http://tinyurl.com/4zewn4y

 

 

Wow its almost perfect, I just realized it is positioned right between the green/blue lines and the red line. Cant have better access to public transportation then that.

 

11 minutes away from downtown by car, 14 by train

11 minutes away from Steelyard Commons by car

11 minutes away from westside market by car, 21 by train

6 minutes away from Cleveland Clinic by car

10 minutes to Little Italy by car, 13 by train

7 minutes from Shaker Square by car, 12 by train

5 minutes to freeway

Access to everything in University Circle

Everything

I believe the plan for that area is for TOF- Transit Oriented Farming.

I believe the plan for that area is for TOF- Transit Oriented Farming.

 

Given Ohio's desire to pave over its farmland, then maybe this is a way to ensure these areas will get developed more quickly!  :-P

 

Of course, McMansion housing subdivisions, strip malls and office parks aren't exactly what I had in mind for that area!

^nice lol

 

Why give up such prime land? I would have loved to see that developed. Its in such a unique area with only amenities that it can provide with its convenience to everywhere in cleveland and to all 3 rail lines. What a shame.

Holy crap, take a look at the available real estate south of the East 79th station. If the city/developer could get a hold of the whole property you could definitely get an awesome development, its like starting new.

 

Like starting new is exactly right.  The entire Kinsman stretch through here is aggressively being targeted by the Cuy Land Bank from 79th to 93rd.  If they can acquire & assemble large parcels here, you're exactly right about having them available for redevelopment.  Last time I saw a map of the properties they owned, it was impressive.  The problem is that alot of this area has environmental issues, and then there's the overwhelming issue of crime & poverty in the area.  Surrounded by CMHA properties that aren't going anywhere.