I was wondering what the economy of Cincinnati is like? It seems like a lot of the growth is in the suburbs, but how much growth is going on in the city? I want the central city to do well.

 

Is the city improving or gentrifying (neighborhood-wise) or decaying (becoming rundown)?

Well to consider Metro Cincinnati produce twice as many jobs as any metro in Ohio the past year. It's doing quite well and It's the ONLY metro in Ohio to have gained jobs since 2000. It's lost one F500 company in 2005, but 2 HUGE mergers made 2 other F500 companies that much larger and Cincinnati retained a past F500 company from moving to Atlanta or Miami.

Uh...like the rest of the state.  The only city that is actually growing is Columbus, and arguably that is due to annexed land.

 

So it's doing both, decaying and gentrifying.

Has downtown Cincinnati become part of the downtown living trend/condo/apartment boom that is sweeping cities across the country?

Come down and find out..;)

Has downtown Cincinnati become part of the downtown living trend/condo/apartment boom that is sweeping cities across the country?

 

Of course.  I can't think of a single Ohio city that hasn't become part of that "trend."  Even Youngstown's downtown is "coming back," which is very impressive.

Has downtown Cincinnati become part of the downtown living trend/condo/apartment boom that is sweeping cities across the country?

 

To an extent, yes. Counting projects that are near completion, a few hundred condo units have been brought to market in the past few years in downtown and Over-the-Rhine, with more planned. Most of these are adaptive reuse, with the exception of about 30 new construction.

 

The past few years have also seen the conversion of several downtown buildings into apartments (including old office buildings, warehouses, a department store) as well as a few buildings of new apartment construction. 

 

There have also been several hundred owner-occupied townhouses and condos built or rehabbed around the periphery of downtown in the past five or so years, including the immediately adjacent hillsides (CityWest, Prospect Hill, Mulberry, Klotter/Conroy, Mt. Adams).

 

What downtown could use is a new residential tower, but Covington's getting that with the Libeskind-designed Ascent.

I do not think it very necessary to have a "new" residential tower (although it certainly would not hurt) with Parker Flats, new const also at the foot of Mt Adams , One Lytle to have a face lift etc.  I fear that the absorption rate may slow a bit across the board and with a whole new property giving us another years worth of inventory, I don't think that would do much for our market.  I am very glad to see the buildings in Newport and Cov. and I believe the perception of us vs them may be changing and a holistic view of the 3 cities is starting to come into play and ones success is feeding off the other.  Downtown Cincinnati was always destined to come back, people can only be dumb for so long before they realize what they have in downtown Cincinnati, the architecture, the entertainment, proximity to work.  We still have a ways to go but the on thing that I do in my profession is trending, and looking at local as well as national trends for urban renewal, my bet is on downtown.

...people can only be dumb for so long before they realize what they have in downtown Cincinnati, the architecture, the entertainment, proximity to work.

 

Amen.

Can anyone image the housing stock of Over the Rhine If they raise rent to about 1k a month to knock out the undesirrables and then rehab the WHOLE area. That's a gold mine sitting dormant.

what is the story on the st x park tower? I thought that was on the drawing board after the garage was built

Can anyone image the housing stock of Over the Rhine If they raise rent to about 1k a month to knock out the undesirrables and then rehab the WHOLE area. That's a gold mine sitting dormant.

 

That.. is a pretty sad thing to say. What's wrong with affordable housing mixed with market rate (or above market rate like you propose)?

Skid row is allways adjacent to the CBD. Just getting rid of the over-the-rine one merely moves it from one area to another, with the possibility of making more skid rows.

Has downtown Cincinnati become part of the downtown living trend/condo/apartment boom that is sweeping cities across the country?

 

That.. is a pretty sad thing to say.  What's wrong with affordable housing mixed with market rate (or above market rate like you propose)? 

at's wrong with affordable housing mixed with market rate (or above market rate like you propose)? 

Sad on who's part? I only speak the truth. I'm black too so it's not a racist statement. I mean it's MANY other afordable area's to live with much less crime. Who says you much set  rents so low in an area so the poor can live there?

That's a nice graphic, Cincy-Rise.  Are all of those completed, or are some still under construction?

That's a nice graphic, Cincy-Rise.  Are all of those completed, or are some still under construction?

 

Thanks. Most are completed, but there are some that are still UC. These also do not include the 1,500+ units that are planned for the riverfront, nor do they include the Montgomery units which are still in the air and the impressive amount of units on the Covington and Newport side of the river.

Thanks for posting the chart Cincy-Rise.  Nice to see there is quiet a bit of residential development in downtown Cincy.

That.. is a pretty sad thing to say.  What's wrong with affordable housing mixed with market rate (or above market rate like you propose)? 

at's wrong with affordable housing mixed with market rate (or above market rate like you propose)? 

Sad on who's part? I only speak the truth. I'm black too so it's not a racist statement. I mean it's MANY other afordable area's to live with much less crime. Who says you much set  rents so low in an area so the poor can live there?

 

Affordable to me doesn't mean poor or section 8.  It just means reasonable.  I mean, hell, I wouldn't pay 1k a month in rent even though I can afford it. 

 

I don't want to see it go the way of SOHO where only the rich can live in OTR and your normal working man, student or artist can't.  I think there should be a mix.  All the independant gallaries that are there currently wouldn't be able to afford rent either.

 

 

 

And even that map doesn't include some of the smaller projects ie 1,2,3 condo unit buildings.  Also we have a tremendous amount of progress in Clifton and all throughout OTR like Dunlap and Main (I know I am preaching to the choir).  I must take issue with the statements above and the backlash against unusualfire.  Can anyone tell me that they do not wish to see each building in OTR brought to its highest and best use?  With the amount of vacancies in and around OTR we need to come to the realization that perhaps this war between the classes has not worked and will not work.  And saying that skid row always exist next to CBD is a statement of capitulation, it does not have to be that way.  For those of you that feel this way it seems that you are content with the way things are, well some of us who live and work in OTR everyday are not content, and will do everything in our power to change things and we are already making strides.

 

"Just getting rid of the over-the-rine one merely moves it from one area to another, with the possibility of making more skid rows."

It is the responsibility of every community to try and make itself as viable as possible.  OTR and Mt Auburn are my communities, not Westwood or Forest Park, if there are low income inventories in those communities then oh well.  Other communities are changing for the better such as Covington, Newport and Clifton, why not OTR.  I will stand up for my community and fight as hard as I can and there are people who throw around the gentrification word like it is a bad thing, well it is not, things can not stand the way they are, we will not capitulate!

And even that map doesn't include some of the smaller projects ie 1,2,3 condo unit buildings.  Also we have a tremendous amount of progress in Clifton and all throughout OTR like Dunlap and Main (I know I am preaching to the choir).  I must take issue with the statements above and the backlash against unusualfire.  Can anyone tell me that they do not wish to see each building in OTR brought to its highest and best use?  With the amount of vacancies in and around OTR we need to come to the realization that perhaps this war between the classes has not worked and will not work.  And saying that skid row always exist next to CBD is a statement of capitulation, it does not have to be that way.  For those of you that feel this way it seems that you are content with the way things are, well some of us who live and work in OTR everyday are not content, and will do everything in our power to change things and we are already making strides.

 

"Just getting rid of the over-the-rine one merely moves it from one area to another, with the possibility of making more skid rows."

It is the responsibility of every community to try and make itself as viable as possible.  OTR and Mt Auburn are my communities, not Westwood or Forest Park, if there are low income inventories in those communities then oh well.  Other communities are changing for the better such as Covington, Newport and Clifton, why not OTR.  I will stand up for my community and fight as hard as I can and there are people who throw around the gentrification word like it is a bad thing, well it is not, things can not stand the way they are, we will not capitulate!

 

Sorry, perhaps I've been misunderstood.

 

I do want to see all the buildings used to their potential, and I'd like to see OTR continue on it's way to being a vibrant, safe, community.  I just don't want to see things become unaffordable to all except for the wealthy.  If an Art Academy student needs a nice studio apartment on main street for say, 500-600 a month, I'd like that to remain a possibility.  It was his statement that rent should be around 1k or higher that threw me for a loop (I'm thinking for a one bedroom).  In Cincinnati 1k for a rental is quite high.  I'd like to continue to see condos available for between 150-250k.  Above that, as a 'young professional', I'd be priced out of the market.   

I'd like to see OTR continue on it's way to being a vibrant, safe, community.  I just don't want to see things become unaffordable to all except for the wealthy. 

We are so far away from that, it is almost hard to concieve that it could happen here.  I think your concerns are a bit misplaced.  Also, in addition to the projects MRedmond has mentioned, there is lots of lower income and subsidized projects being built. 

I took 1k as an arbitrary number pulled out of the sky and not literal, I can show you today a couple of 1k rents in OTR today as well as some 300,000 plus properties.  Does this mean that all of OTR is like this, of course not.  But as Jimmy says, we are so far away that I can not imagine ever seeing OTR completely out of reach.  I see homes in Amberly Village at 2 mil and I see other homes down the street at 180, OTR as with any other community will have a mix of high and low end homes for purchase as well as rents.  Right now we are skewed so far towards the low end that no one should fear that OTR will be out of reach any time soon (or ever).

The unusualfire said it (or at least how I understood it) was that he'd up the rent on everything to 1k - not a likely scenerio, obviously - I probably took him too literally...  I am an advocate of renovation and improving the housing stock with a healthy mix of medium-high income properties.

I'd like to see OTR continue on it's way to being a vibrant, safe, community.  I just don't want to see things become unaffordable to all except for the wealthy. 

We are so far away from that, it is almost hard to concieve that it could happen here.  I think your concerns are a bit misplaced.  Also, in addition to the projects MRedmond has mentioned, there is lots of lower income and subsidized projects being built. 

 

I'm not really concerned about it actually happening anytime soon - it was just a response to unusualfire's comment... which, like I said, I probably took entirely too seriously.

Understood, no harm done.  I think we are on the same page.  My quick (and perhaps harsh) response to this comes because we do hear this everyday when talking about the redevelopment of OTR.  Our biggest obsitacle seems to be ourselves.  There is tremendous infighting everyday over not just how OTR should be redeveloped, but even some who ask whether it should be redeveloped at all.  We all want the same thing (or at least the overwhelming majority of us) but I understand the fear that some have that they will somehow be left out.  Every project that we work on in OTR or CBD is an uphill battle of changing minds and community image but these are but a handful of buildings out of litteraly thousands.  No one will be left out, fewer will be displaced than you think (because some of these are vacant buildings) and the range of pricing will be all over the board and market driven.  Students are certainly welcome, which seems to be your primary concern, look at all the signage stating "welcome SCPA Students" on buildings everywhere downtown.  We are, and will continue to be diversified not only in race, sexual orientation, but in income also, no one is shutting the door in anyones face.

Indeed - OTR is lucky to have you.  Keep in mind, I just moved into a brand new condo downtown, so it would be odd for me to not want development :).

Well congrats, which part?

I used to live in the Emery on Central.  This past summer I moved into Graydon on 6th.  There's a thread about it right here:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3134.60

Our biggest obsitacle seems to be ourselves.  There is tremendous infighting everyday over not just how OTR should be redeveloped, but even some who ask whether it should be redeveloped at all.

 

I'd think the biggest problem is apathy + anti-city folks who make up the majority of the market, thus eviscerating demand - but they aren't the folks you have to deal with frequently, so it probably seems like infighting's a big deal - but even without infighting, there'd be low demand (at least right now) - but with overwhelming demand (think Mt. Adams), infighting wouldn't hardly matter at all...

 

OK, I meant to put that out there as a question, not as a statement of fact - do you think that's an accurate assessment, or am I all wet?

I think ignorance is a huge factor as well.  People who have spent no time in OTR and know nothing about the history have the 'hopefully they'll just bulldoze it and start over' mentality - hoping ultimately to replace it with cookie cutter condos and a Target, I suppose.  The concept of a comfortable, urban, vital neighborhood where you can walk to the store and shopping is seriously a foreign concept to a lot of Cincinnatians out in the suburbs.

 

One time I was at a family gathering and my aunt said something along the lines of "Well, at least if they keep shooting each other they'll be no one left".  Once I told her I lived in the neighborhood, she realized she had stuck her foot firmly in her mouth. 

 

It's frustrating.  I've mentioned it before - but I think a lot of the people who are apathetic or igorant about OTR simply haven't been to other cities and experienced a positive urban environment.  Heck, if we could just force them to attend the downtown tour of living here in Cincinnati, I think their mentality would change.

 

I was one of those sheep once.  We can be changed :).

 

As a more directlreply to your question, at least in the CBD, demand for renovated condos (esp in the 200k range) seems to be quite high.  When my place was on the downtown tour I had a few people ask me if it was for sale, or if I'd be willing to sell it.  You just need to get folks thru the door and interested in something different.

Well I would not necessarily say apathy, at least not the people I am talking about.  They seem passionate about their beliefs and more than willing to fight for them.  And I more than most, probably have to deal with them more frequently.  And I do take what they say somewhat more personal than perhaps I should as it does get frustrating from time to time.  Now I will say that there are very few - true, anti-development people out there but they do exist and they are very vocal. (I always have to point back to CitiRama at the top of Hughes and how that was shot down by the very people it would have helped the most)

I would not say there is necessarily low demand either, at least not relative to historic trends.  Absorption rate is a factor (number of condos on market at a given time relative to closing rate) but OTR and CBD is seeing an upswing.  Infighting can help diminish demand, (as it never seems to stay "in") and can certainly kill a proposed project.

Mark,

Correct, ignorance both inside and outside of the community.  I know I have brought this up in the Mulberry thread but an example, City Beat writing about the Mulberry Hill Tour for Life "come see the rich people on the hill open their doors for the less fortunate"  This type of ignorance is just as hurtful and creates an us vs them environment.  Class warfare, especially when it is incorrect, does us no good whatsoever.  It is not just the Burbs that are ignorant, but members of our own community. 

Personally, I want to see OTR gentrified.

 

Anyone that disagrees should be banned!  :-D Moderators, moderators!? ;)

I was just putting 1k out there as a number. it could a  little less of course. Affording a 1000 a month rent apartment don't mean you are rich..lol Not even close. I mean you are right i would not pay that kinda cash when you can find lower rates in cincinnati in safer area's.

Personally, I want to see OTR gentrified.

 

 

 

I just want to see people who take care of their properties and take pride in their community.  If thats the definition of gentrification, then i guess im for gentrification.  if not, then i guess the word that defines what i said is what i am for instead. 

Generally speaking , Cincy is making a comeback. My fiance and I go down there quite often(we are from Grove City, a southwest suburb from Columbus) and we just LOVE Cincy. We explore through all the neighborhoods and we find there is something for everybody no matter their age, gender,race, religion , sexual orientation, economic status etc. etc.  So it is not a question of Cincy gentifrying or decaying. ( Which the latter I find not)

There are just to many projects to point to and more are on the way to say anything other than a turnaround.  Is there anyone out there who truly believes that we are not better off today (in a residential sense) than at any point in recent history.

Wow, I am glad to hear Cincinnati is coming back.

>what is the story on the st x park tower? I thought that was on the drawing board after the garage was built

 

It was on the drawing board but several large condo rehabs have happened in the past few years.  When downtown runs out of properties to convert into condos, this location will have an advantage because the garage already exists.  That puts it several months, if not a year ahead of any other potential tower site.  That said I don't particularly like that location and would never live there. 

 

As for OTR there are still quite a number of people who would rather see it bulldozed than do any of the work to improve the area.  Cincinnati's old residents still equate that area and row buildings as tenements.  It's a place you work to get out of and the thought of wanting to live there is absolutely inconceivable.  They see that style of building as meaning personal failure, like living in a trailer (which shouldn't necessarily be the case either, btw).  The city has tens of thousands of retired millionaires watching TV in suburban retirement condo complexes spending their money on tropical cruises and Argosy Casino instead of investing back in the neighborhoods they grew up in. 

Amen.

what is the story on the st x park tower? I thought that was on the drawing board after the garage was built

There has been absolutely no news on this in forever.  There hasn't even been any news on the grocery that was supposed to go in the retail portion of the garage for over a year.  I think jmecklenborg covered this in both his answer and in his website, cincinnati-transit.net.

 

OK, I meant to put that out there as a question, not as a statement of fact - do you think that's an accurate assessment, or am I all wet?

People thinking that Northern Kentucky is Valhalla and ignoring everything that's gone on in Ohio is the biggest problem.  "Northern Kentucky is kicking Ohio's ass" is an oft-repeated mantra that somehow has been accepted as truth.  I guess I'm speaking metro-wide...were you referring to OTR only?  Because that's the way this thread kind of drifted.

 

^Yeah, my original comment was in response the comment that in-fighting among folks in Over-the-Rhine was the biggest problem...I thought it might be the most noticeable problem, the one dealt with every day that had easily discernable results, but that the biggest problem was simply lack of demand - folks are scared (like me - I wouldn't live in most of OTR with my wife - I just wouldn't do it), or folks don't like the city, or prefer suburbs, etc.  If there were tremendous demand, I figured in-fighting wouldn't make any difference to OTR (using Mt. Adams as an example - imagine a huge in-fighting incident in Mt. Adams folks, and then imagine if that would have an iota of impact on demand for homes and apartments there), and without demand, being in-fighting-free wouldn't do much to affect demand...

 

Things kind of drifted away then, so I didn't pursue the question...

RiverViewer,

 

I believe the demand is there, in some parts of OTR more than others. It is similar to Mainville in some respects in that most people do not want to live that far out yet there are enough people to fill the inventory. It takes a certain type of person who would live in OTR or CBD, our job as Realtors is simply to find that person.

 

In respect to infighting, it does not necessarily hurt demand (although it can) but it can hurt supply. As I mentioned above we lost Citirama at the top of Hughes St due to infighting. Now that is a supply issue as well as a demand issue as Citirama is the type of project that can create demand due to its marketing.  My wife and I lived in Mt. Adams and have moved to OTR.  The issues that Mt. Adams deals with are not on the same level as OTR so it is a hard thing to imagine.  Gentrification arguments, crime solutions, historical (new vs rehab) are not issues that are as prevelant in Mt Adams.  The biggest argument I have ever seen in Mt Adams (as of late) has been the interuption of view debate, hardly to the level of gentrification, and whitey is pushing us out. (a Tyrice reference)

 

If you follow my line of reasoning, let me put out a question.  With all the negative rhetoric flying around Citylink, ie the West End and OTR will be a magnet for homeless everywhere, and property values will plummet etc. how do you back out of this if and when this facility is built.  How do we convince people that the West End and surrounding communities are still worth the investment?  This is one type of infighting that could hurt demand in my opinion.

 

^Definitely - I agree that infighting (including the current residents vs. potential new residents, and "community activists" vs. developers, etc.) can definitely hurt - I was just thinking the way they primarily hurt is by hindering work on the main problem.  Like, say your ceiling is falling in...you would fix it if you had any nails, but you don't have any nails.  Your problem isn't a lack of nails, it's that the damn ceiling's falling in.

 

I guess I'm raising a pretty stupid point - we need to create a desirable housing stock in safe neighborhoods, which will let folks who would like to live there move in, and encourage others to follow...and anything that gets in the way of that goal is a problem.  By the way, I very much admire folks like you who are passionately pursuing that goal - it's not something I have the skills or the fortitude to pursue myself...

sorry...double-post...

not a stupid point at all.  We can't get people to agree that "ceiling fan" is even broken, let alone should we buy a new one or fix the old one, or use screws or nails to reatach it.  I believe it would be one thing if we could agree on an ultimate goal of where the community should be and then we can bicker over how to get there, but some can't even agree on the goal. 

 

We will prevail in the end, there are just to many good people doing good things.  Thank you for the kind words.  Anyone can help turn around OTR by simply believing in it.  Our biggest obstacle has been the overwhelming majority of people throwing their hands up and giving up on OTR.  Just believe it will come back and get the word out that positive action is taking place, and there are people working literaly every day to turn things around.  One other person I can point to is a fellow Realtor who made news today.............Thanks Peter! Something truly positive.

 

OVER-THE-RHINE MAIN STREET BUSINESS DISTRICT NOW A WIRELESS HOT SPOT

 

Team Chabris Partners with Project Lily Pad to Sponsor Free wi-fi in the Over-the-Rhine Main Street Business District

 

Cincinnati residents and downtown workers now have another reason to meet in Over-the-Rhine: "Lily Pads" or free wireless internet access zones. This new, totally free service has been made available through a partnership between Project Lily Pad, Road Runner Business Class, Peter Chabris, owner of Comey & Shepherd's Team Chabris, and community philanthropist Melody Sawyer Richardson.

 

The 100% volunteer-driven Project Lily Pad team pairs with local sponsoring corporations and organizations to install wireless hot spots, "Lily Pads", in key community areas throughout greater Cincinnati. Team Chabris, a Comey & Shepherd real estate sales group led by Peter Chabris, elected to sponsor the free wi-fi site in the Main Street Business District to provide Over-the-Rhine residents, perspective homeowners, and visitors an additional advantage to the urban living experience. Peter Chabris explained, "Every facet of our lives has been affected by today's need to provide and receive information on demand. Neighborhoods must also cater to this need for their residents, and we are proud to make Over-The-Rhine's Main Street District one of the first neighborhoods in Cincinnati to understand and meet this need. It warms my heart when I see men and women hunched over a laptop discussing their business over coffee at Kaldi's."

 

Through the generous sponsorship of Team Chabris & Ms. Richardson, and the technical support provided by Road Runner Business Class, free wireless will be available in the Main Street Business District for the next 3 years. The free wi-fi can be accessed from the public spaces and select businesses along Main Street between 12th Street and Liberty Street.

 

About Project Lily Pad

Project Lily Pad is a 100% volunteer driven initiative to install free wireless internet access in public spots, business districts and common areas throughout greater Cincinnati USA. Each Lily Pad is supported by a strategic technology alliance with Time Warner Cable's Road Runner Business Class and full-funded via regional sponsorships with a corporation, individual, or an organization. One can currently access free wi-fi at the following Lily Pad locations: Findlay Market, the Main Street Business District, Hyde Park Square, Longworth Hall, Fountain Square, Tri-County Mall, Piatt Park, Krohn Conservatory and T.M. Berry International Friendship Park. In 2006, Project Lily Pad and Road Runner Business Class plan to install several additional wi-fi locations, including Cincinnati Art Museum, Taft Museum of Art, Cincinnati Museum Center, Anderson Park-n-Ride and the Cincinnati Riverfront.

Lily Pad is project of Give Back Cincinnati, a local non-profit organization focused on enhancing Cincinnati's communities through volunteerism. For more information on Project Lily Pad or to find out how to sponsor a future Lily Pad location, visit www.LilyPadUSA.org

About Road Runner Business Class

Road Runner Business Class, a service of Time Warner Cable, is the nation's number one commercial cable broadband provider for every business - from home-based to the enterprise. Road Runner Business Class solutions are available throughout southwest Ohio, serving urban, suburban, and rural businesses. Established in Greater Cincinnati in 2000, Road Runner Business Class serves nearly 6,000 businesses with solutions that range from high-speed Internet access and email to complete hospitality solutions for hotels and hospitals as well as secure VPN solutions for enterprises. Road Runner Business Class is on the Web at www.rrbusiness.com