I couldn't do the skilled trades since I am way too scared of heights. Being a machinist or working on cars are about it if you want to stay on the ground and not get immediately pointed toward scaffolding -- and my folks wouldn't let me go into auto repair.

I couldn't do the skilled trades since I am way too scared of heights. Being a machinist or working on cars are about it if you want to stay on the ground and not get immediately pointed toward scaffolding -- and my folks wouldn't let me go into auto repair.

 

I spent half the day yesterday using an industrial sander on my friends' wood floors, and I havent felt that kind of immediate satisfaction in years. Academic work is a lot of delayed, then minimal gratification. 

Skilled trades is a very good profession. There are plumbers, welders and electricians that earn consistently more per year and over their lifetime than many masters degree candidates including teachers, college administrative staff and even tenured PHD professors. The big drawback to many of these positions is that they are labor intensive and can take a toll on the body as you age. In addition, you often do not have the flexibility you would otherwise have in other white collar professions

Doing away with shared dorm rooms for single person rooms was certainly a big expense for schools that they pretty much had to do. Today's students can't fathom all those rules from the '60s about when boys and girls can see each other. They're not going to be put into a situation where they can't have their stupid boyfriend sleep over every single night.

 

Those rules were gone at Case during the very early 80s, on the south side we had suites of six small singles with common restrooms/showers and a living area.  At least two of my suitemates basically had their girlfriends living with them.  I think they might have cared if both women didn't officially live on campus, but otherwise they didn't.  So this is nothing new.

Yale's new dorms are pretty incredible.  They just opened but they look like they're from 1750.  This report is pretty interesting because the guy in charge makes the point that students are assigned randomly to the freshman "colleges" (the different dorm clusters).  You can't overstate how important the dorm experience is.  All teaching at all levels is split between the instructor and the students themselves.  Maybe not for a typical 100-level lecture class in an auditorium but is definitely the case for any sort of class with group projects and certainly anything in the arts. 

 

 

 

It's my general observation that people who went away for college and lived in the dorms -- even for people who didn't finish a degree program -- benefited greatly from it.  The experience of getting away from the home town and getting a totally new group of friends from all over the place is something you can't do later.  People who joined the military had a similar experience. 

 

If you're away from the family, you are free to become a different person, and you can put on the act that you're the same person for those occasional trips back to the home town.  If you never leave, there are all sorts of soft forces that keep you from being able to change. 

 

 

It's my general observation that people who went away for college and lived in the dorms -- even for people who didn't finish a degree program -- benefited greatly from it.  The experience of getting away from the home town and getting a totally new group of friends from all over the place is something you can't do later.  People who joined the military had a similar experience. 

 

Not neccesarily.  I started out living at Case, switched over to commuting after three semesters.  My GPA was a full point higher when I was commuting.  Mostly it was the "food" literally making me sick, but that wasn't all of it.  It's not for everybody.

 

 

It's my general observation that people who went away for college and lived in the dorms -- even for people who didn't finish a degree program -- benefited greatly from it.  The experience of getting away from the home town and getting a totally new group of friends from all over the place is something you can't do later.  People who joined the military had a similar experience. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But then you have to go to their weddings for the rest of your life

But then you have to go to their weddings for the rest of your life

 

Yes, unfortunately more than one wedding per dude.  Interesting how some guys who were groomsmen in the first wedding weren't even invited to the second wedding. 

People who thought they were in a public service loan forgiveness program...weren't:

http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/02/pf/college/public-service-loan-forgiveness-lawsuits/index.html

I think I actually had teachers who fell into this category. Okay, that was Painesville :(. lol

 

‘I was a teacher for 17 years, but I couldn’t read or write’

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/stories-43700153

Linked in this article is a factoid claiming that only 11% of economic mobility can be attributed to access to education:

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/05/whats-really-behind-economic-mobility/560360/

 

The article asserts that where we live matters more than our education.  Well, duh.  That's always been the case ever since mechanization of farming made family farms uncompetitive and the kids were free to move to the city like never before. 

 

The other well duh is the marriage thing.  And obviously men who do not have college degrees and no family are less likely to marry women who have both than vice-verse. 

If I had a nearing-college age kid right now I would ban them from all quaint little schools in jobless small towns. I don't have the money to subsidize them until age 35 when they could have gone to a school in a city and have a job lined up before graduation due to the vastly superior networking available in cities.

Depends on what the kid wants to do and where they're likely to get their terminal degree.  I'll guess most graduates of Kenyon College--a quaint little school in a jobless small town near an even larger jobless small town (Mt. Vernon)--are doing fine.  Many of them probably went on to graduate school in larger markets, and of course, many also come from backgrounds that gave them access to networks of their own.  If my own children wanted to go to Kenyon, or even a slightly less prestigious small-town small school like Denison (both of which were on my own short list), I'd at least let them proceed as far as getting through the scholarship hunt before we got down to brass tacks.

My network is pretty much all public sectors, blue-collar guys and professional musicians. I own a small business.

Kenyon and Denison are off the radar for most people.  Even with scholarships you can end up with serious debt.  I grew up near Denison and parents' weekend would fill the town with exotic sports cars.  These schools serve as backups for coastal blueblood kids who can't get into anything fancy back home.

^Yeah, don't even go to the tiny school in the big city. The Columbus job scene doesn't pay attention to anything in town besides OSU and Columbus State.

^Yeah, don't even go to the tiny school in the big city. The Columbus job scene doesn't pay attention to anything in town besides OSU and Columbus State.

 

Mt. Ida college in Boston just went out of business.  There is a prediction that A LOT of these small schools are going to hit the skids in the next 10-20 years.  But some of them are sitting on absolutely ridiculous endowments so they'll stick it out. 

So Purdue University bought Kaplan University. That seems...very unusual...but I guess it might be easier for a public university to buy a for-profit university and integrate it, rather than build out similar programs on their own.

So Purdue University bought Kaplan University. That seems...very unusual...but I guess it might be easier for a public university to buy a for-profit university and integrate it, rather than build out similar programs on their own.

 

My mom just took an "extension" class in gardening from her state's university.  I suppose that universities have always had continuing education classes, but I sense that the non-profits have picked up a few of the for-profit dirty tricks.  Get local hobbyists to pay to become adjuncts, then way-overcharge for the exact classes these hobbyists were previously teaching for free at the YMCA or wherever. 

Wait, adjuncts are paying to teach rather than just being paid like crap?

Wait, adjuncts are paying to teach rather than just being paid like crap?

 

I am suspicious that this is going on for these sorts of continuing education classes -- an adjunct has to take a class to become and adjunct (beyond simply earning an advanced degree).  I did not have to do this when I was an adjunct.  I did, however, get paid crap with no benefits. 

Strangely, the people I know who have taught these types of classes are real estate developers who have made millions rather than starving artists. They did it more for the PR than anything. This doesn't mean I knew them well enough for them to offer me a job.

2.5 million Americans owe over $100k in student loans:

More importantly, a lot of those with $100k+ in student loans aren't doctors or lawyers or investment bankers.

 

I really wish I had a way to short private student loans.  It would be an openly political investment because the only thing that sustains those loans is the federal guaranty.  And that might well be less than politically invincible.

I think people tend to focus on the borrowing aspect which is important. But a major part of the problem is the cost of education is increasing faster than inflation making education out of reach for some. 

The increases are largely due to an arms race among colleges for the newest and fanciest facilities. It's a tremendous waste of resources and the cost of it all is being passed on to 18 year olds in the form of debt that will take 15 years to pay off.

Networking should be the only thing non-STEM (and some STEM) students should be thinking about when selecting a school in 2018. Double Olympic pools and retro gaming lounges don't get you a job.

The increases are largely due to an arms race among colleges for the newest and fanciest facilities. It's a tremendous waste of resources and the cost of it all is being passed on to 18 year olds in the form of debt that will take 15 years to pay off.

 

In smaller countries like France and England there are maybe 20~ major universities and their relative "rank" has been known for many years.  But in the United States, with 200+ major colleges and universities, and hundreds of smaller places, they offer innumerable competing programs. 

 

Also, the payoff period for loans I believe is 20+ years, not 15.  I am still paying on a $4,000 loan from academic year 1996-97.  The interest rate was originally 5.5% but has been 1.9% since a 2005 refinance, which is why I've been taking my sweet time paying it off.  The balance is probably under $1,000 at this point. 

 

I think 20 is fairly standard now.  Mine are all 20 year loans, so they'll be paid off when I'm 45.  The difference between mine and most loans (even government loans) today is that mine have a blended interest rate around 2.1%.  My most expensive one is 3.5%.  I was lucky to go to law school during the credit bubble when loans flowed like lemonade at a picnic.  (Or beer at a frat party, perhaps a more apt metaphor.)

And schools here can change in "rank" over something as outlandish as a Sweet Sixteen appearance.

My undergrad loans, I believe, were amortized over 10 or 12 years. Not sure what was different and why some over over 15, 20, or more years. I was in school from '06-'10, I paid off the loans early and was done by the end of '15. The government loans were around 6% fixed and I also had a private bank student loan that was variable, but always around 4% after the recession.

I believe

 

^See, even those of us who are reasonably intelligent don't quite understand what is going on with these loans.  I certainly received zero consultation prior to borrowing the money or after I graduated.  I remember knowing that you got a six-month grace period but I was really confused when I started getting mail in 2005 about consolidating my loans.  It looked like a scam (there was no website and I think I called but could never get through) but I did it and my interest rate dropped precipitously on the old loan.  It did on the newer loan too, but that loan seems like it switched to a variable rate after having been a fixed rate.  Nobody tells you anythying! 

I think many schools simply shunt students into "default" (no pun intended) loans with certain providers.  I never actually sought out Bank of America as my law school student loan provider.  It was just who the financial aid office worked with and it would have been a much bigger lift than it was worth to go to a different provider, especially considering that I didn't really have some sweetheart deal with a different provider lined up, and I was reasonably confident that I wasn't going to do much better anywhere else.

 

Same with the term lengths.  In fact, the term on one of my loans randomly changed at some point (after it was acquired) and I didn't even call to fight it.  It was a 15 year loan.  After it was acquired, my payment suddenly dropped by a decent amount.  I eventually realized they were now treating it as a 20 year loan.  At first I was annoyed because it means more interest over the life of the loan.  But it's 1.625% interest.  If someone wants to give me 1.625% unsecured credit on 20-year fixed terms, even if it wasn't what we originally negotiated (especially because there really wasn't a negotiation and I just kind of signed the standard option, not much different than clicking "Agree" to the Apple terms of service), I'm willing to let someone with a more serious problem tie up their customer service line.  I just laugh and enjoy the story because it means the loan purchasers didn't even really read the note itself.  In fact, it's entirely possible that they still haven't gotten physical possession of it and couldn't read it even if they wanted to.

The increases are largely due to an arms race among colleges for the newest and fanciest facilities. It's a tremendous waste of resources and the cost of it all is being passed on to 18 year olds in the form of debt that will take 15 years to pay off.

 

In smaller countries like France and England there are maybe 20~ major universities and their relative "rank" has been known for many years.  But in the United States, with 200+ major colleges and universities, and hundreds of smaller places, they offer innumerable competing programs. 

 

Also, the payoff period for loans I believe is 20+ years, not 15.  I am still paying on a $4,000 loan from academic year 1996-97.  The interest rate was originally 5.5% but has been 1.9% since a 2005 refinance, which is why I've been taking my sweet time paying it off.  The balance is probably under $1,000 at this point. 

 

Well that is the unavoidable result of (1) states no longer funding public universities → (2) public universities having to get more of their funding from tuition rather than the states → (3) universities realizing that potential students care more about having nice dorms and rec centers than academic programs, and since they now have to "run like a business", they have to offer these amenities in order to attract the tuition-paying students. The whole thing could be avoided if we just shifted funding of universities back to the government.

Just paid off my student loans. 

7 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

Just paid off my student loans. 

 

Congrats man!  Nothing better than the feeling of paying off those debts ?.

I didn't have it that bad compared to a lot of people out there.   These loans are out there ruining a lot of people's lives.  If you go into business and it flops you can declare bankruptcy and a few years later get back to having a life.  If you get a degree in something that doesn't pan out (i.e. the industry shrinks) you're stuck with the loans for the next 20+ years. 

Call Mr. Roof For The Proof:

I can't believe Lori Loughlin (of all people!) is involved in this. ?

 

Felicity Huffman, Lori Loughlin Among Dozens Charged in College Entrance Exam Scandal

 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-amign-dozens-charged-college-entrance-exam-scandal-1194023

^Well, she kinda cheated to get Rad Racing back on HellTrack after Cru got banned for not having a sponsor

^I remember her fondly for a summer tv series called Summerland from 2004. I loved that show. I know you're innocent, Lori.The truth will come out.?

 

 

I had a conversation with the CFO of a small liberal arts college in the region. He indicated that that come 2023-2024 time, there is going to be an enrollment cliff in college enrollment as millennials graduate from college and the much smaller GenZ begins to go to college.  He was saying that the drastic drop in student population is going to force a lot of smaller liberal arts schools to close, especially those without significant research capabilities and located outside of a metro area. College education is going to be transformed at that time to meet the needs of much smaller enrollments.  Large state schools will overall be fine, but there will be a downsizing of certain programs.

He was mentioning schools like DePauw and Wittenburg, Tiffin would be the types to really struggle in coming years.  

I agree. College has to be as much about networking as anything else and in most small towns you cannot network properly with employers.

^ The problem is that there are really 3 ways that schools are getting funded. You have your tuition, research money and grants, and then you have the endowment.

Small liberal arts schools like DePauw and Wittenburg, etc. do not do much research if any, so they cannot compete for the lucrative grants. They have very small graduate programs which tend to be the cash cows for the schools. Many have smaller endowments, but even those with a decent endowment to get them through a lot of the crunch, the problem is that they are located outside of metro centers so they have a large physical plant to care for and maintain. There just is not that much interest and pull for locals to commute to DePauw or Ohio Northern, so the schools must invest in significant capital projects like dormitories and cafeterias, etc to house the student population.

 

Schools like Mount St. Joe, or Thomas Moore or Capital or a John Carroll or Baldwin Wallace are insulated from some of this because they reside in an urban or suburban setting. They do not need to invest in and own and maintain large capital projects such as dorms so they can direct their capital to other parts of their program. Students can commute locally easier, and students can have options to do non-traditional programs for both graduate and undergraduate degrees because these smaller colleges are located near job centers.

 

Schools like IU or even OU will be ok because even though they are not in metro areas, they are large state schools that can generate a decent amount of research dollars to help support it.

 

it will be interesting to see how this shakes out over the next 10 years. I wonder if any colleges we know today will no longer be around.

10 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

I had a conversation with the CFO of a small liberal arts college in the region. He indicated that that come 2023-2024 time, there is going to be an enrollment cliff in college enrollment as millennials graduate from college and the much smaller GenZ begins to go to college.  He was saying that the drastic drop in student population is going to force a lot of smaller liberal arts schools to close, especially those without significant research capabilities and located outside of a metro area. College education is going to be transformed at that time to meet the needs of much smaller enrollments.  Large state schools will overall be fine, but there will be a downsizing of certain programs.

He was mentioning schools like DePauw and Wittenburg, Tiffin would be the types to really struggle in coming years.  

 

this is already happening in some places, apparently even at smaller (yet still good sized) state university campuses located in more remote areas

 

Students in Rural America Ask, ‘What Is a University Without a History Major?’

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/12/us/rural-colleges-money-students-leaving.html

5 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

it will be interesting to see how this shakes out over the next 10 years. I wonder if any colleges we know today will no longer be around.

 

In 10 years, I'm sure that multiple Ohio colleges will no longer be around.  Either that or they'll have to be dramatically different.  But it's far too late for any of them to be first movers into things like online learning.

 

I've lived in Akron for 10 years and still do not understand the case for the existences of colleges in the greater area like Hiram, Wooster, Malone, Walsh, and Mount Union.  What do they do (other than football in the case of Mount Union) better than others?  Even giving the soft stuff proper credit (experiences, culture, etc.), what experiences do they offer that cannot be replicated at a state school?  Some of them have at least a nominally religious character that could theoretically be distinctive and attractive to members of that denomination, but few of them appear to take that seriously as a distinguishing characteristic--and in these increasingly secular times, I'd be surprised to learn that many of their students and alumni do, either.

 

I don't know which ones of those, or others, are most likely to close.  But there's no way that the market can actually bear all of them through the inevitable disruptions to come.

The CFO I was speaking with,  indicated that when they wanted to add residence halls they did a private partnership with a developer who built mix use housing with retail. This way, the developer created a community lifestyle setting and the school did not have to carry the risk of the project. If enrollment dips, the housing can be rented out as market rate a lot easier than if the university owned it and was part of campus.

 

Also, being in a metro area, students have options to work part time or full time at banks, hospitals, offices etc for larger employers. vs a small town like say Greencastle IN Or Tiffin or Bowling Green, the students options are drving for Dominos or bar tending.  It is a much better recruitment tool for the student of the future who may want to keep costs down of their college education.

5 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

 

Some of them have at least a nominally religious character that could theoretically be distinctive and attractive to members of that denomination, but few of them appear to take that seriously as a distinguishing characteristic--and in these increasingly secular times, I'd be surprised to learn that many of their students and alumni do, either.

 

 

 

I guess they figure if this approach worked for Harvard and Yale, which started out as institutions to educate Christian ministers, and are now cesspools of political correctness, it will work for them.

^ Different times. Harvard and Yale are who they are because their endowment has grown over 300+ years. They can essentially self fund themselves now. It also does not hurt that they are some of the top Research Universities in the world.

 

The ones that will struggle are the ones who stayed wedded solely to a liberal arts mission and never branched outside of a traditional liberal studies curriculum  

 

There is the issue of lower birthrates after 2000, but there is also the issue of very high health care costs for professional employees.  No doubt the admissions staff and administrators of these small liberal arts schools are bloated, and they are forced to pay sky-high insurance premiums to retain professional staff. 

 

Education at all levels must pay for health care in the United States.  Not sure why people aren't louder about reducing health care costs and switching to a public system for this reason alone.