What's up with Xavier?  Some of those on the bottom of the long list have negative ROI

 

From a purely financial/investment perspective, it does not make sense to spend the money on Xavier. Now these are aggregate values that take in the whole school, while different majors/colleges may give you more or less ROI. While Xavier is geared to liberal arts, UC offers degrees in a number of high paying fields in Majors that Xavier doesn't even offer.

Not sure if this has ever been posted here, ROI per education dollar spent (higher rankings mean more value in the job market for education dollars spent):

 

http://www.payscale.com/college-roi/

 

Some highlights:

58 - CWRU (Highest Ranking Ohio college on the list)

159- Cincinnati (instate)  # 2 in Ohio

189 - Miami (instate) # 3 in Ohio

224  - Dayton  # 4

284 - OSU (instate)

336 - OU (instate)

369 - Cleveland State (instate)

834- Xavier

 

That is an incredible list of data. Some are pretty shocking (like Kettering University in Michigan ranking 12th), but if you know the history of some of the more trade-focused schools, it makes sense. Kettering pumps out top-level engineers for the Detroit auto industry. Even after the collapse of the auto industry, Ford, GM, and Chrysler are still good places to work.

 

I'm not at all surprised Cincinnati ranked top in Ohio for public universities. While schools like Ohio State are harder to get into and steal all the thunder, what Cincinnati has is good graduate retention in the city, and solid entry-level corporate positions at local Fortune 500's. This proves what many of us have long suspected- location of school matters just as much, if not more than reputation. University of Cincinnati is just a few miles from multiple Fortune 500 headquarters downtown. That proximity is valuable. It's easier for students to network and apply for jobs. I have no idea what's going on with Xavier. Is the student body not as selective as Cincinnati? It does seem odd it ranks so much lower than other Ohio schools. Maybe limited data for that one?

 

Schools like Ohio University and Miami get dinged due to their remote locations, which makes it harder to network with people who might help you get a job. What's really crazy is I bet the average net worth of a family sending their kid to Miami or Dayton is probably double what it is at Cincinnati. So while inherited wealth matters, a decent urban school can really help you get your foot in the door in that respective city. I've seen studies that Cincinnati retains something like 50% of its grads in the metro area. That's outstanding by Ohio standards or really by any Rust Belt standards.

 

So, it looks like Cincinnati is the best bang-for-buck in Ohio as a general guideline (of course major choice will matter a lot).

 

*I'm also really shocked Stanford didn't rank number 1. A paltry #6 ranking seems odd given the Bay's recent dominance of the US economy. I expect that will change soon as Stanford continues its dominance at launching tech start-ups.

 

**Also not surprised to see Cal Berkeley dominating the public universities. Location, location, location. It's a 25-minute BART ride to the tech start-ups in SOMA. A lot of people don't realize how close Berkeley is to San Francisco.

 

I love the categories for the schools.

 

This is Ohio University...

Categories:

State School, Research University, Party School, For Sports Fans

It's ROI per education dollar spent, so my first guess would be that Xavier (private) is just more expensive than Cincy for similar returns.

It's ROI per education dollar spent, so my first guess would be that Xavier (private) is just more expensive than Cincy for similar returns.

 

It isn't just that, X has no programs ranked in USNWR. Their academic rankings are not relative what is called national universities.

Their rankings are similar to Division 2-3 athletic rankings. I wonder how many students there pay the advertised tuition?

In 2014 Dave Ramsey (supposedly) co-wrote a book with his 25 year-old daughter called "Smart Money, Smart Kids".  She now appears on his show, appears on TV, and tours the country promoting that book and her and her dad's other personal finance products. 

 

There are three insane problems with this book -- first of all, his daughter wrote about teaching kids how to budget, even though she didn't have any kids at the time she supposedly wrote the book (she had a child in 2015, though).  Second, she was raised in an almost obscenely wealthy family environment (Dave's net worth is now over $50 million).  Third -- she gives all sorts of advice on how to avoid borrowing money for college...EVEN THOUGH HER DADDY PAID FOR ALL OF HER COLLEGE EXPENSES.

 

So last night she was on the radio show co-hosting a segment where she and her dad took calls from people who graduated from college recently with zero student loan debt.  Most of them got big scholarships or some sort of financial aid, or lucked out and got a job with the university that waived their tuition costs.  One girl said that she got a real estate license and made commissions renting apartments in her college town, which I have to admit was pretty brilliant, although I don't think she made very much because she also said that she waited tables.  Some were in co-op situations or lived out some other fairy tail.   

 

But what really gets me is the temerity of Dave Ramsey to declare that "you're not gonna be working a minimum wage job while going to school..." but that there's somehow also no "systemic" problem with low wages in this country.  How can all 500,000~ students now accruing student loan debt at this very moment all go out and find $20/hr part-time jobs?  Aside from bartending (which Dave disapproves of, because of the "atmosphere"), where are all of these $20/hr jobs hiding?

 

One of the paradoxes of the high tuition and student loan situation is that tuition costs have gotten so high that going out and getting a low-wage part-time job during college almost makes no sense.  Making $100/week for 36~ weeks a year is a drop in the bucket, even if you do it all four years.  That said, making (or saving) approximately $3-4k a year times 4 years does actually add up to some real money.  But every minute spent flipping burgers is a minute not spent exploring your course of study in the library or going on a fun trip with your friends.  The fact is going on a cross-country trip with your friends at age 40 doesn't happen, and if it did, it wouldn't be nearly as fun as when you're 20. 

 

 

Haha, if there were good-paying part-time jobs in Portsmouth where I went to college the town sure wouldn't look like it does now.

A few years back I needed a custom spreadsheet, for an owner occupant purchasing commercial real estate, leasing excess space to other

Tenants. Factoring in, down payment, financing rate, operating expenses, income from tenants, length of lease.....in essence when is my client in the black. Lease Mod, Pro Calc did not have what I wanted, or they want a long term monthly commit. Found a college kid on Craigslist, paid him $350. Excellent finished product. He told me he did it part time 10-15 hours a week and would make at least $2,000 a month under the table.

 

If you are going to borrow a ton of money for high tuition you gotta make sure you major in a high demand employment sector.

I joined the military so my tuition was paid, but I earned it. Also worked part time during the school year and then full time in the Summer.

Never saw the beach during that time. I did a hell of a lot more partying in my 30's than 20's.

 

 

Scott Walker devastates University of Wisconsin budget...cuts $250 million, eliminates tenure:

http://www.startribune.com/uw-budget-cut-tuition-freeze-up-for-vote/305434511/

 

Scott Walker, one month later, gives $250 million in public dollars to billionaire hedge fund managers who recently bought the Milwaukee Bucks:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/15/sports/bucks-new-owners-get-house-warming-gift-of-public-money.html?ref=sports&_r=1

 

 

UW-Madison is one of the finest public universities in the country. Walker's policies are beyond idiotic. There may be an argument to be made that tenure is antiquated and should be eliminated, but doing this now, and in that manner, jeopardizes Badger U.'s ability to compete for top faculty.

UW-Madison is one of the finest public universities in the country. Walker's policies are beyond idiotic. There may be an argument to be made that tenure is antiquated and should be eliminated, but doing this now, and in that manner, jeopardizes Badger U.'s ability to compete for top faculty.

 

My friend's wife teaches in the UW system (not Madison, but I don't want to say which one or in which field).  Several months ago she decided to apply for jobs elsewhere, so she'll now be restarting the tenure process wherever she lands. 

Yeah, UW-Madison is a top tier university that deserves continued support. Walker seems like a snake, but thankfully, I don't think he has a chance in a general election (then again, I never thought he'd win in generally moderate Wisconsin either). Cutting funding or programs at our historic top tier universities is stupid, but not surprising given Walker's history as governor.

 

The good first tier and second tier schools will survive any future bubble burst because they have the facilities and staff to provide a solid education and social experience. They set themselves apart from online ed. Wisconsin Madison is a prime example of this. It's a gorgeous campus with a world class party experience on par with Ohio University, West Virginia, and Santa Barbara. The older I get, the more I realize how much extremely social, outgoing university environments can help prepare students for the business world. A growing number of start-ups in San Francisco, which now employ tens of thousands of new grads every year, basically resemble frat houses. Hell, even some big, established tech corporations do too. Twitter still throws frat parties despite how big it has gotten:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/23/business/twitters-ill-timed-frat-party.html

 

In my experience, I'd say graduates from top party schools dominate high-paying business development, marketing, community management, event planning, and sales positions in San Francisco tech. UC-Santa Barbara is pretty much the gold standard, but Wisconsin-Madison, Texas-Austin, Arizona State, and even now Ohio University to some extent (which launched Imgur and a few other influential start-ups in San Francisco) are climbing the ranks. They likely will never touch the job placements of UCSB, but there is little doubt that party schools and Greek Life are a growing part of today's current tech economy. San Francisco vernacular like "brogrammer" didn't come out of thin air. Some of these more client facing roles can outearn front-end development and hard engineering positions.

 

*It should be noted I'm talking the San Francisco tech scene in particular. Oakland tech leans far more hipster/introverted than SF tech while Silicon Valley is more old school and nerdier. But most recent growth has been directly in San Francisco city limits. The East Bay and Silicon Valley don't have the same momentum.

 

**I will say that many of the wealthiest grads I know in SF tech are ex-sorority girls or ex-frat bros. A good number also went to party schools and compete directly with Stanford, Berkeley, and Ivy League grads. The key thing is they went to historic party schools with respectable academic programs or advantageous locations. No school in the Bay has a good party scene, but a lot of companies like having some UCSB type grads on staff to lighten things up and make work more fun. Maybe even as a way to teach grads from nerdier schools how to party since a lot of them didn't get that experience...

 

I have a few exes who have jobs like that. Party planning, community development, etc.

It really, really helps in business to have some degree of generalism and to be able to relate to lots of different types of people. Parties and maintaining multiple socially-oriented hobbies help you do that.

Agree 100% with this article. All the wealthiest people I know in tech marketing and sales have art history degrees, psychology degrees, women's studies degrees, English Literature degrees, and other similar degrees that might not get much respect in the typical Midwestern city. In truth, they're the ticket to the big riches in San Francisco and Oakland. While engineers with good presentation and people skills will always go far in the Bay (people with both technical and people skills typically go furthest), a lot of the top biz dev, project manager, marketing, account manager, and community manager positions are not done by people with STEM degrees.

 

Now some of these people went to expensive, prestigious universities, but many also come from state schools. It proves that degree choice is not as big of a deal as people think. To climb the mountain of money in tech, major in art history!

 

*And there is nothing wrong with waiting tables or bartending after college. That can indeed be a professional background since a lot of start-ups are targeting the restaurant and bar industry. So-called "dead-end jobs" in retail, nightlife, and food service can give you valuable insights into customer service and the logistics of how bars, restaurants, and brick-and-mortar retail establishments operate. The article hits on that with a few of its examples. It also argues that communication skills and customer service are always valuable in any sector.

 

JUL 29, 2015 @ 09:45 AM 803,567 VIEWS

That 'Useless' Liberal Arts Degree Has Become Tech's Hottest Ticket

 

In less than two years Slack Technologies has become one of the most glistening of tech’s ten-digit “unicorn” startups, boasting 1.1 million users and a private market valuation of $2.8 billion. If you’ve used Slack’s team-based messaging software, you know that one of its catchiest innovations is Slackbot, a helpful little avatar that pops up periodically to provide tips so jaunty that it seems human.

 

Such creativity can’t be programmed. Instead, much of it is minted by one of Slack’s 180 employees, Anna Pickard, the 38-year-old editorial director. She earned a theater degree from Britain’s Manchester Metropolitan University before discovering that she hated the constant snubs of auditions that didn’t work out. After dabbling in blogging, videogame writing and cat impersonations, she found her way into tech, where she cooks up zany replies to users who type in “I love you, Slackbot.” It’s her mission, Pickard explains, “to provide users with extra bits of surprise and delight.” The pay is good; the stock options, even better.

 

What kind of boss hires a thwarted actress for a business-to-business software startup? Stewart Butterfield, Slack’s 42-year-old cofounder and CEO, whose estimated double-digit stake in the company could be worth $300 million or more. He’s the proud holder of an undergraduate degree in philosophy from Canada’s University of Victoria and a master’s degree from Cambridge in philosophy and the history of science.

 

“Studying philosophy taught me two things,” says Butterfield, sitting in his office in San Francisco’s South of Market district, a neighborhood almost entirely dedicated to the cult of coding. “I learned how to write really clearly. I learned how to follow an argument all the way down, which is invaluable in running meetings. And when I studied the history of science, I learned about the ways that everyone believes something is true–like the old notion of some kind of ether in the air propagating gravitational forces–until they realized that it wasn’t true.”

 

...In fact, people without a tech degree may already be benefiting the most from tech’s boom . Some fascinating insights can be found on LinkedIn, which tracks graduates of specific universities as they move into the workforce. Say hello to the 62,887 LinkedIn members who attended Northwestern University in the past decade. Now zoom in on the 3,426 who have moved to the San Francisco Bay Area, one of the most popular destinations outside the Midwest, as they chase the Silicon Valley dream. Smart call: The Wildcats’ top corporate employers include Google, Apple, Facebook, Genentech and LinkedIn.

 

Surprisingly, only 30% of these migrants ended up in engineering, research or information technology. As LinkedIn data show, most of the migrants have created nontechnical career paths in Silicon Valley. The list starts with sales and marketing (14%) and goes on to include education (6%), consulting (5%), business development (5%) and a host of other specialties ranging from product management to real estate. Add up the jobs held by people who majored in psychology, history, gender studies and the like, and they quickly surpass the totals for engineering and computer science.

 

CONTINUED (huge article with excellent data)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeanders/2015/07/29/liberal-arts-degree-tech/

Every campus had one or two of these guys...totally out-of-their-minds rich kids who looked normal but had pretty severe mental issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgNnDtqxnSU

 

These guys got *really* insane at parties.  I watched a guy like this push his own friend down a staircase (that "friend" attempted to ruffie my roommate's girlfriend, incidentally), pull a sink out of the wall, then take over 20 unblocked punches to the face and just stood there dazed with blood dripping down his face until the police showed up.

^Oh yeah, OU was loaded with those types of people.

People over 30 have zero patience for those guys.

People over 30 have zero patience for those guys.

 

Yeah, but I'm a bit amazed that none of the other college students are heckling this guy.  I guess they were too busy filming it. 

 

I can't believe the cafeteria staff kept their cool to the degree they did.  If I was in charge of that place I probably would have head-butted this guy well before he made the first move. 

I seriously cannot remember going to school with anyone that acted like that. Of all the incidents and hubbub in the dorm, none of it ever resembled anything like that. Wow.

Missouri woman accrues an incredible $400,000+ in student loan debt:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/missouri-high-school-teacher-ended-200000267.html

 

I'm not sure how she got away without paying her loan for 20+ years, but I can relate in the slightest.  I remember doing a deferral for two years after I got out of school.  I paid $100/mo instead of the $280 or whatever I was supposed to pay.  My overall balance grew by $1,000 or $2,000 dollars.  Not a big deal but it took me until about Year 4 of paying off student loans (2 years of deferral then 2 years of paying on schedule) until my overall balance was back to what it was when I graduated. 

Backlash against for-profit scam colleges is building:

http://thinkprogress.org/education/2015/11/16/3722604/for-profit-college-settlement/

 

It's not clear what the terms of the settlement are from this article.  I can't tell if it's reimbursement for any semester withdrawal or only the first semester of any particular student's time at the school.  But as I think I've said earlier in this thread, I worked at a for-profit college and they tricked the hell out of students.  For example, they'd tell people they could resume the same class on the same week the next semester at no extra charge, but would go ahead and charge them the full amount for both semesters. 

Leave it to the private sector to figure out ways to scam people in ways previously never thought possible.

Leave it to the private sector to figure out ways to scam people in ways previously never thought possible.

 

They wouldn't be able to do all of this if not for the federal loan program or the bizarre way that private lenders seem to be willing to throw money at people in medical assistant and massage therapy school. 

 

Unbelievable! Look at the hundreds of millions the for-profit industry has squandered of veteran's benefits...

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/university-of-phoenix-military-recruitment-ban-2015-10

I hate how there's a bunch of industries focused on screwing people who have joined the military -- especially young guys.

So it turns out that the IRS considers whatever is forgiven as "income" when you finish a lengthy income-based student loan repayment plan:

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/ex-students-income-based-loan-payments-face-huge-tax-bill

 

I'm not sure the numbers quite add up with this guy, though.  He'd have to pay about $1,500/mo for the next 25 years to pay off the $220,000 balance.  If his wife earns $50,000 they could probably afford to throw $3,000 per month at this debt and pay it off in about 10 years.  They of course would have to live in a modest house and not have kids, but then again, that's what the student loan situation is doing all over the place -- keeping housing prices low and keeping people from being able to have kids and save for retirement. 

^ None of that math seems to add up - notably that the guy earns $90,000 a year and can only manage to pay $575 a month toward student loans. He's spending a lot of money every month on something. I doubt the $575 is truly the most he can afford, I think he's intentionally looking to pay as little as possible and remain optimistic that he can weasel out of the tax bill after 25 years. If the threat of IRS taxation wasn't there, waiting out the 25 years on minimum payments might very well be the wisest financial decision for people with as much debt as this guy.

I wonder if there is a variable in the ICRP formula that takes into account the cost of living where you are.  I don't know Antioch, California, but if it's one of the more expensive areas (it seems to be an outlying community in the greater San Francisco area), the math might show that $90,000 there doesn't leave you with much.  I know that in chapter 13 bankruptcy plans, for example, the math works differently if you earn $100,000 in Manhattan vs. $100,000 in Toledo.

I wonder if there is a variable in the ICRP formula that takes into account the cost of living where you are.  I don't know Antioch, California, but if it's one of the more expensive areas (it seems to be an outlying community in the greater San Francisco area), the math might show that $90,000 there doesn't leave you with much.  I know that in chapter 13 bankruptcy plans, for example, the math works differently if you earn $100,000 in Manhattan vs. $100,000 in Toledo.

 

As seems to be the case with most of these published stories, we don't have quite enough information to give specific advice from the comfort of our arm chairs.

 

One of the details we don't have is is there just one mega-consolidated loan or are there several smaller loans?  If so, then there is some relief in sight when the first or second loan is paid off. But otherwise it's like a mortgage (and unlike credit cards) since the monthly payment won't go down if you pay more per month.  You risk losing more money if you foreclose (and in fact increase the risk of foreclosure) after having overpaid on your mortgage, just like if you overpay on your student loans rather than just saving extra money in an account.   

 

 

 

 

Ads for UC student housing...no doubt these same stock images can be found on similar ads for similar student housing elsewhere:

 

 

 

 

I wonder if there is a variable in the ICRP formula that takes into account the cost of living where you are.  I don't know Antioch, California, but if it's one of the more expensive areas (it seems to be an outlying community in the greater San Francisco area), the math might show that $90,000 there doesn't leave you with much.  I know that in chapter 13 bankruptcy plans, for example, the math works differently if you earn $100,000 in Manhattan vs. $100,000 in Toledo.

 

Antioch is not a desirable place for rich kids like Oakland and San Francisco, but it's in the Bay, so it's still insanely expensive by any national standards. $100k is not a lot of money in Antioch, despite the fact it's one the cheapest, least competitive places in the Bay. It usually ranks dead last in desirability. Rich kids would probably rather live in a dangerous part of Richmond than all the way out there. Antioch also has no BART service, so you need to factor in huge car expenses. Google busses don't run out there either. Antioch might be half the rent of Oakland and San Francisco for the same square footage, but then those savings are wiped out by transportation costs and higher utilities. It'd be a wash for a single person, though families would save a lot more since housing units are larger and public schools are better.

 

Keep in mind in the Bay today, under 75k yearly income generally qualifies you for some subsidized housing programs in San Francisco, Berkeley, Emeryville, and other cities. Metro-wide, anyone under six figures will struggle to survive without rent control and without owning. The income limits for subsidized housing in Berkeley are about $75,000 a year for a single. In Emeryville, it's about $78,000 a year. Realistically, 100k in in the Bay is about equal to the living standards of 30k in Ohio. You'll still need multiple roommates. My old roommate who was a tech investor made 180k a year, was single, and still needed two roommates after his landlord kicked him out of his 1-bedroom.

 

http://www.ci.emeryville.ca.us/565/Below-Market-Rate-Ownership-Program

 

*Anyone earning 100k in Toledo can own multiple Victorian mansions and a couple of income-generating duplexes or a small historic apartment building in the urban core with 4 units generating $500 a month each (purchased for maybe $50,000 cash in livable condition). 100k in Toledo = 500k in the Bay.

 

Cost-of-living absolutely needs to be taken into account when discussing these issues. The Bay should also have a minimum wage of at least $20 an hour at this point, not $15 an hour like we approved. Four years ago, sure, $15 an hour would work with four roommates (I managed on about that in excellent SF neighborhoods that have doubled or tripled in price since then), but today? No way. You're homeless on the bullet-cased streets of West Oakland.

 

I have no idea how any recent college grad could live in the Bay Area while paying off student loans. That has gotten extremely rare unless they were a medical student and are pulling $500k salary at a local hospital. Nurses pulling $150k standard salary might also be able to do it if they get housing help. I rarely meet anyone under 30 with student loans in Oakland or San Francisco. The typical profile I see is of kids who had college paid for by parents or kids who got significant scholarships.

 

Student loans are becoming a thing of the past in wealthy markets like the Bay. It's very similar to how mortgages have become a thing of the past in most San Francisco and Oakland neighborhoods. Truly rich people pay all-cash for as much as possible to avoid debt unless it's extremely low-risk debt. That's the difference between the global .01% of the Bay and the aspirational rich elsewhere in America. They pay for their kid's tuition and rent in college and buy their homes/investment properties straight cash to win the bid wars in desirable neighborhoods with high flipping potential. Student loans are high-risk debt, much higher risk than property investments in top tier global cities. Many of the Bay's wealthy also buy houses for their kids out of college so they don't end up like 20-somethings elsewhere in America stuck in a debt trap. Sometimes the parents become their kid's landlords. There also are an insane number of applicants from out of state and out of country trying to get into top California schools who are paying full freight at higher tuition. Their parents will do anything to get them into Stanford or Berkeley. Since all of the state budget cuts, many people have suspected these wealthier applicants are being favored at the expense of Californians.

 

Due to the Bay's global economic dominance, many wealthy parents from around the world want to get their kids in here so they can be shielded from the economic issues seen in the rest of the United States. I can't really blame them. The best thing a parent could do for their kids is get them into Stanford or Berkeley, regardless of the cost. They'll set them up for a lifetime of economic and social opportunity. Smart parents who can afford it want their kids to go to school in places with excellent job opportunities.

 

**I've also had some recent sad cases of UC Berkeley students being evicted from their apartments applying to live with me because their parents can't afford the Berkeley rents. These students have to leave Berkeley even though they're well-qualified to study there. They did all the work to get in and succeed there, and now they're screwed due to the housing crisis. It's not the tuition doing this. It's the Bay-wide housing shortage and resulting rents off campus. :|

 

***We're going to see a lot more of this. Students with loans could be permanently priced out of markets like the Bay Area since they can't compete on housing (at least at schools lacking in dorms for every student). The real kick in the teeth is that cities like San Francisco are by far the best places for recent grads to find jobs. It's a real catch-22 in America.

 

****I'm also seeing a huge shift with Gen Z. Many of them are living at home for their first few years of undergrad or going to community college first and transferring to a university later. By contrast, Gen Y millennials were more gung-ho on getting the "full campus experience," which bankrupted most of them. It's crazy to do 4-6 years on the main campus if you can't afford it. Gen Z could fix the student loan crisis. They seem far more reluctant to go deep into debt than we were. It's an area where I see Gen Z displaying more maturity than Gen Y.

 

I remember like half of my friends going to graduate school, getting an MBA, and/or going to law school because they were scared of the real world recession-era job market...I don't think you're going to see as much of this "hiding out in grad school" behavior with Gen Z. The concept of the "career student" could become a thing of the past. People might go back to focusing only on the graduate schools with top ROI, and not enrolling in them until after a few years of real world career experience. I don't think anyone should get an MBA until they've worked in the real world. The MBA may even fall out of favor to be replaced by networking sessions and professional career retreats/workshops. This is already happening with a lot of creative industry degrees.

 

I think my sister has like two or three graduate degrees, and she doesn't use any of them. She's a waitress, but she's a waitress in a tourism town where they can easily outearn college grads in places like Ohio. There are lot of people in their late 20's and 30's like that...

Everyone pays the same federal tax so people in the expensive cities hit the higher income brackets quickly.

 

This is slightly off-topic, but definitely related to Midwest living expenses -- you can still find houses and multifamilies that you can rent for 1.5% or even 2% of the purchase price.  What this means is that you can commonly get $1,500 or $2,000/mo on a $100k property if it's in an uncool neighborhood in an uncool Ohio city.  Just this week I ran across two guys in the podcast sphere who have basically bailed on investing on the coasts and instead have picked up and moved their operations to the middle of the country to get higher returns.  Specifically, one guy moved his company from Oregon to Kansas City and another guy bailed on NYC and know invests almost exclusively in Knoxville, TN.

 

Ohio fits into that category...cheap, quality stuff is all over Cincinnati and Cleveland.  You'd struggle to find anything like the returns you get here anywhere in California, maybe in Bakersfield or Fresno. 

^The smartest investment properties are rental housing around Ohio's major universities. You can buy a decent, livable house around Cincinnati or Toledo for $75-125k, and rent it to students for $2,000 a month. You might now be able to get even better returns around Ohio State. For the price of one rental property in Berkeley, Oakland, or San Francisco, you could get 10-20 properties in Ohio. Athens would have the best returns due to it being much more competitive than the norm in the Midwest since it's such a great party town. Housing prices in Athens are cheap compared to rents. Athens likely still has the highest rents in Ohio. When I lived in Athens, it was more expensive than Ann Arbor, Madison, and Chicago (much higher than Wrigleyville at the time when considering square footage and quality).

 

The college bubble hasn't blown yet, and even it it does, most of the university-related housing is well-situated for stable rents (generally safe neighborhoods not too far from downtown- could be good family housing too). Ohio's public elementary and high schools are excellent compared to California's. If the college students ever leave Ohio, you'll see families replace them.

You can actually get stuff that is a much better deal around Cincinnati as opposed to a rental near UC. 

 

That said, I own a house that will be a UC rental in a few years.  If I pay it off when I'm 40, rent it for 40 years, then sell it when I'm 80, having made $7,500 year in rent above expenses and taxes, and having reinvested those earnings, I'll easily earn $1 million in 2020 dollars before selling the thing.  The  way lending works in the United States is that once you completely pay off one house, you're able to pretty easily get loans for four more.  So if you have five paid-for blue collar homes by the time you retire, even in Ohio, you're bringing in about $3,000-4,000.  It's a rule of thumb that you can retire whenever you get 20 homes paid off.     

This girl writes an article about the silver lining of student loan debt -- being forced to get organized, etc.:

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2016/03/29/tax-season-paying-off-student-loans/82339632/

 

 

Her situation is not extreme, and it's easy to criticize the car lease situation.  Also, she doesn't appear to have gotten a second job or really, truly "sacrificed".  But the real problem is in the comments.  People are so eager to pour it on and pretend that they had it worse.  No they didn't, at least not so far as student loans are concerned. 

You can actually get stuff that is a much better deal around Cincinnati as opposed to a rental near UC. 

 

That said, I own a house that will be a UC rental in a few years.  If I pay it off when I'm 40, rent it for 40 years, then sell it when I'm 80, having made $7,500 year in rent above expenses and taxes, and having reinvested those earnings, I'll easily earn $1 million in 2020 dollars before selling the thing.  The  way lending works in the United States is that once you completely pay off one house, you're able to pretty easily get loans for four more.  So if you have five paid-for blue collar homes by the time you retire, even in Ohio, you're bringing in about $3,000-4,000.  It's a rule of thumb that you can retire whenever you get 20 homes paid off.     

 

 

If you have a UC Rental, you can probably rent that for a lot more than clear $7500. We have a number of rentals at UD and we put 5-6 people in the house paying $7000 for the school year per person and then if they stay the summer they pay additional. College rentals can be very lucrative.

Sure, I should gross more than that, but I always underestimate things because I'm aware of what can go wrong.  Inevitably you will have at least one major expense per decade, if not two, and might lose rent if the tenants move out.  For example, if the pipes burst and the tenants simply move out, you're out the plumbing repair + the lost rent.  Plus you might get sued and so will incur legal bills.  Also, I forgot to mention that I will probably turn it over to a property management company at some point which obviously cuts into net receipts quite significantly. 

 

Back to for-profit schools scamming students...it turns out that some of the for-profit schools have students sign a document that gives away their right to challenge the school in the legal system:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mollyhensleyclancy/students-ripped-off-by-for-profit-schools-cant-sue#.baR16Ejry

For-profit school loses accreditation, students out tens of thousands as program shuts down just weeks from graduation:

http://www.wcpo.com/news/education/ohio-board-of-nursing-revokes-approval-for-antonelli-program

More Than 40% of Student Borrowers Aren’t Making Payments

New figure raises worries that millions of them may never repay more than $200 billion owed

By JOSH MITCHELL

Updated April 7, 2016 1:05 p.m. ET

460 COMMENTS

 

More than 40% of Americans who borrowed from the government’s main student-loan program aren’t making payments or are behind on more than $200 billion owed, raising worries that millions of them may never repay.

 

The new figures represent the fallout of a decadelong borrowing boom as record numbers of students enrolled in trade schools, universities and graduate schools.

 

While most have since left school and joined the workforce, 43% of the roughly 22 million Americans with federal student loans weren’t making payments as of Jan. 1, according to a quarterly snapshot of the Education Department’s $1.2 trillion student-loan portfolio.

 

About 1 in 6 borrowers, or 3.6 million, were in default on $56 billion in student debt, meaning they had gone at least a year without making a payment. Three million more owing roughly $66 billion were at least a month behind.

 

Meantime, another three million owing almost $110 billion were in “forbearance” or “deferment,” meaning they had received permission to temporarily halt payments due to a financial emergency, such as unemployment. The figures exclude borrowers still in school and those with government-guaranteed private loans.

 

CONTINUED

http://www.wsj.com/articles/more-than-40-of-student-borrowers-arent-making-payments-1459971348

Nice headline. This:

More Than 40% of Student Borrowers Aren’t Making Payments

 

And this:

More than 40% of Americans who borrowed from the government’s main student-loan program aren’t making payments or are behind on more than $200 billion owed,

 

...mean completely different things.

^Yeah, I wonder what the numbers are for private loans? I bet it's similar, but sloppy journalism not to include it.

Good kids getting into top schools but they can't come close to affording it:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/parenting/wp/2016/04/13/playing-financial-merit-aid-roulette-with-my-college-bound-son/

 

 

I got into much better schools than I could afford to attend, so I can relate to this.  I ended up going to the two state colleges I went to completely for financial reasons even though I was accepted and got some money from much better schools. 

There is nothing wrong with going to a State school. In fact, there are a lot of fools who go to very expensive private schools and graduate heavily in debt. It may open a door or two initially, but beyond the first couple of years, it does not really mean too much in the career.

 

There are a lot of successful people who graduate from Ohio U in the world, and there are a fair share of failures who graduate from Harvard.

There is nothing wrong with going to a State school. In fact, there are a lot of fools who go to very expensive private schools and graduate heavily in debt. It may open a door or two initially, but beyond the first couple of years, it does not really mean too much in the career.

 

There are a lot of successful people who graduate from Ohio U in the world, and there are a fair share of failures who graduate from Harvard.

 

 

Yes and no to all that.  But something that can't be ignored is that attending an elite school with students from wealthy families means you're somewhat more likely to marry someone with a nice fat inheritance coming their (and your) way. 

 

 

my only question is why someone would apply to all 8 Ivy League schools (plus several more elite institutions). How much does it cost to submit even one college application these days? $100, 200?? I wonder what her backup school is, MIT? (mine was Lakeland Comm. College-- :laugh:)

 

Long Island High School Student Sweeps All Eight Ivies

By MIKE McPHATE

APRIL 6, 2016

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/07/nyregion/long-island-high-school-students-sweeps-ivy-league-universities.html?_r=0

Augusta Uwamanzu-Nna is the daughter of Nigerian immigrants.

 

I wonder how much the current trend toward holistic admissions affected this situation?

Yeah, do the admissions people who actually crunch the numbers (or whatever they crunch) see an applicant's name?  If so they can form a picture in their mind, if they don't just do a google image search or look them up on Facebook. 

 

When I have lived in other areas of the country I have had people variously assume that I was Jewish or from an old money family based on my name alone.  I don't know if it worked for me or against me. 

 

 

 

 

I'll add though that I worked for several months as a temp at a standardized test scoring company.  It takes a huge staff of people to score the essay sections of the tests.  The training for each question is pretty lengthy and each essay is scored by two different people.  If a passage receives different scores from different scorers, it is kicked out once more and scored by a third person. 

 

The frustrating thing about scoring those essays was that you could see that the more creative and better-spoken students often got lower scores than those who stumbled on the "correct" key words and phrases by accident. We also were not permitted to score based on penmanship.  But from an admissions standpoint, I'd have to think that handwriting is a heckuva window into the maturity and character of the applicant. 

 

Also, a few of the people I met who devise those tests (the essays and the overall structure of the tests) were some of the smarter people I've met.  Overall there were definitely some very intelligent people working in this realm. 

 

 

Augusta Uwamanzu-Nna is the daughter of Nigerian immigrants.

 

I wonder how much the current trend toward holistic admissions affected this situation?

 

“They are very concerned about racial and ethnic diversity,” Mr. Skarlis said. “They would rather have the Latino kid from the Bronx who has overcome something significant in his life, rather than the upper-middle-class or more affluent white student.”

 

I suspect the kids of African (except Somali) immigrants are especially prized since they fulfill a de facto racial quota yet usually have values more like Asian immigrants. (Which is probably  how she ended up applying to all the Ivies.)

 

This is by no means a bad thing.  It can start countering the idea that issues facing the black community are racial rather than cultural.

 

We also were not permitted to score based on penmanship.  But from an admissions standpoint, I'd have to think that handwriting is a heckuva window into the maturity and character of the applicant. 

 

except these days kids aren't even capable of handwriting!

 

Why Johnny can’t sign his name: Cursive writing goes the way of the quill

 

http://www.thestar.com/yourtoronto/education/2013/06/23/why_johnny_cant_sign_his_name_cursive_writing_goes_the_way_of_the_quill.html

 

We also were not permitted to score based on penmanship.  But from an admissions standpoint, I'd have to think that handwriting is a heckuva window into the maturity and character of the applicant. 

 

except these days kids aren't even capable of handwriting!

 

Why Johnny can’t sign his name: Cursive writing goes the way of the quill

 

http://www.thestar.com/yourtoronto/education/2013/06/23/why_johnny_cant_sign_his_name_cursive_writing_goes_the_way_of_the_quill.html

 

My son is 6 and goes to CHCA in Downtown Cincy and his handwriting is better than a lot of adults I see.

 

When he was doing his homework, I said that's not how you write an "h" ... he started putting little hooks on all of his letters. When I was picking him up I asked the teacher about it and she said it's because they're going to teach them cursive next year. I was pretty relieved and asked her about CHCA doing away with cursive like a lot of schools seem to be now and she said something like, "we will never stop teaching cursive handwriting."