From the Over-the-Rhine blog at http://overtherhine.wordpress.com/2011/03/18/before-after-hamer-street/:

 

At the intersection of Hamer, Benton and Back Streets.

 

 

Editor's note: the "after" photo went missing, view it here on Google Maps. —taestell 5/10/2018

Still looks quite nice and the buildings pictured all seem to be intact. Not sure how it happened, but it looks like OTR, despite previous and ongoing demolition of older building stock that the neighborhood escaped (most of) the wrecking ball.

OTR's lost about 50% since it's peak. It might have lost less because so many of the buildings were bigger and multi-family. That's conjecture though.

 

Also, the destruction of the nearby Kenyon-Barr neighborhood probably sated much of the area's need for dehumanizing public housing.

Really reminds me of views one can see in Bostons North End.    I bet OTR could be every bit as vibrant too.  sigh.....

OTR's lots will fill in, well that is if the streetcar happens.

Just a question. It appears that most of the revitalization efforts have happened along Vine and Main Streets. Why havent their been more efforts towards Elm and Race? Washington park could have been extended north to West 14th. Those two streets dont only have a park but they also lead to findlay market and the Cincinnati Music Hall.

Washington Park is being extended to 14th. They are currently digging the underground parking structure and and event lawn will be on top of it. 3CDC seems to be moving on a street by street basis. Projects have already begun on Race, and they will increase with the completed renovation of Washington Park.

 

http://overtherhine.wordpress.com/2011/03/21/before-and-after-1100-pendleton-street/

^That after image is horrendous.

^ I concur, but the before was awful as well....part of me says that if the city took better care of the basin half of it wouldn't have disappeared.

new post on the OTR blog: http://overtherhine.wordpress.com/2011/03/24/1912-cincinnati-reds-opening-day-parade/

 

Findlay Market Opening Day Parade in one week away!

 

RSVP on facebook: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=143544175711415

 

 

 

From the 1912 parade at 12th and Race in OTR:

 

Same location today:

 

LINK

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?source=embed&q=12th+and+race+cincinnati+oh&layer=c&sll=39.108048,-84.516382&cbp=13,30.69,,0,-17.63&cbll=39.10809,-84.516145&gl=us&ie=UTF8&hnear=Race+St+%26+W+12th+St,+Cincinnati,+Hamilton,+Ohio+45202&panoid=k5l6IZVs6KJbqSHOrKxn-A&hq=&ll=39.10809,-84.516145&spn=0.00388,0.021136&z=16

Just a question. It appears that most of the revitalization efforts have happened along Vine and Main Streets. Why havent their been more efforts towards Elm and Race? Washington park could have been extended north to West 14th. Those two streets dont only have a park but they also lead to findlay market and the Cincinnati Music Hall.

 

Five years later... this is exactly what has happened. The renovation and expansion of Washington Park has spurred a ton of new investment on Elm and Race. There are several restaurants on Race, although it certainly isn't a huge culinary scene like a block over on Vine. Additionally, within the next few years, several major buildings along the park (Music Hall, Memorial Hall, and the YMCA) are getting major renovations, and a new Cincinnati Shakespeare Company theater is being built at 12th & Elm. With the streetcar connecting Washington Park to Findlay Market and Rhinegeist, we are bound to see more renovations along Elm and Race for years to come.

The benefit of that as well is that Race and Elm Streets north of Findlay Market are much more heavily mixed use and a larger scale than their counterparts south of Liberty. Far more ground level commercial spaces, large multifamily buildings, etc. up around Findlay Market.

September 13, 2009:

 

July 4, 2014:

^ I never cease to be in awe of the transformation of OTR. Not to mention the abundance of such beautiful buildings in your city.

Its even more crazy for those of us who lived in the early 00s - Cincy almost feels like a completely different city now.

^Agreed it looks like a different city. Although I haven't been there in at least a decade, I remember staying in Over-the-Rhine back when it was a ghetto. It was honestly one of the creepiest, most disturbingly ghetto places in Ohio. When your competition is Toledo and Cleveland, that's really saying something. It was a violent, extremely impoverished, crime-ridden neighborhood. The transformation of that neighborhood is simply remarkable. To go from large-scale riots to this spotless, bucolic-looking streetscape is pretty much the best result a Rust Belt city can hope to accomplish. Over-the-Rhine's transformation deserves more national attention than it's getting.

I know your in the bay area but if you get a chance when your in the state you should check it out. Don't expect mini sf quite yet but it's getting really nice.

Over the Rhine is simply to big.

 

It's hard to really recommend someone visit OTR, because there's just so much left to be done.

 

I'd argue only the southern half of OTR is revitalized..the north half of OTR is just as scary and just as abandoned (for now). But even the southern half still has alot of work left to be done.

 

This is easily a 20 + year work in progress. OTR is just so big that the amount of time and work that needs to be done is quite a mountain to tackle...Especially if you bunch in Pendelton and Mohawk as well.

How do you think we feel up in Seabus with our downtown that is bigger than Cleveland's and Cincinnati's combined and still has tons of surface lots? It's a monster.

Over the Rhine is simply to big.

 

It's hard to really recommend someone visit OTR, because there's just so much left to be done.

 

I'd argue only the southern half of OTR is revitalized..the north half of OTR is just as scary and just as abandoned (for now). But even the southern half still has alot of work left to be done.

 

This is easily a 20 + year work in progress. OTR is just so big that the amount of time and work that needs to be done is quite a mountain to tackle...Especially if you bunch in Pendelton and Mohawk as well.

 

That's a brilliant idea. Don't recommend anyone visit OTR so all the businesses that have opened up can fail due to a lack of customers and then the rest of OTR never gets redeveloped, because why bother when no one is visiting.  Brilliant!

Over the Rhine is simply to big.

 

It's hard to really recommend someone visit OTR, because there's just so much left to be done.

 

I'd argue only the southern half of OTR is revitalized..the north half of OTR is just as scary and just as abandoned (for now). But even the southern half still has alot of work left to be done.

 

This is easily a 20 + year work in progress. OTR is just so big that the amount of time and work that needs to be done is quite a mountain to tackle...Especially if you bunch in Pendelton and Mohawk as well.

 

That's a brilliant idea. Don't recommend anyone visit OTR so all the businesses that have opened up can fail due to a lack of customers and then the rest of OTR never gets redeveloped, because why bother when no one is visiting.  Brilliant!

 

Im just trying to be honest

People should see it as a work in progress so they are more impressed every time they visit ;)

@troyeros you should realize there are lots of people like you who are primarily interested in the feeling of motion that OTR has right now, whether experienced as observer or participant. While I am looking forward to the neighborhood maturing (I think it's closer to 10 years than 20) I also know this time is special for being able to feel the changes happening and influence them in a small way.

Over the Rhine is simply to big.

 

It's hard to really recommend someone visit OTR, because there's just so much left to be done.

 

I'd argue only the southern half of OTR is revitalized..the north half of OTR is just as scary and just as abandoned (for now). But even the southern half still has alot of work left to be done.

 

This is easily a 20 + year work in progress. OTR is just so big that the amount of time and work that needs to be done is quite a mountain to tackle...Especially if you bunch in Pendelton and Mohawk as well.

 

Five years ago, the southern half of OTR was not revitalized. It did not revitalize overnight due to a single investment. It revitalized thanks to the hard work of a lot of people, including many people on this forum who were willing to go hang out, buy a home, or start a business in OTR, even though it was a little bit "scary" or unpolished at the time. Most of the people on this forum enjoy seeing neighborhoods transform over time and like being part of that process.

 

It sounds like you aren't interested in visiting northern OTR until the revitalization there is complete. If that's the case, don't hold your breath, because it's going to be another 10 or 15 years.

^This.

I think you guys are misunderstanding what I'm trying to convey.

 

As a cincinnatian I take great pride with what is occurring in Over the Rhine. It's made long strides to where it was 5 years ago.

 

My point is, Over the Rhine has the potential to be so much more. In my mind I envision a fully revitalized Over the Rhine, where every building is filled with homes and shops. Where every building has been rehabbed and every building has a fresh new coat of paint. Where every street is safe, no matter whether it's morning, afternoon, or night.

 

Until that day, I don't want tourists from out of town to see OTR. Because in my mind, a fully revitalized OTR will have the same drawing power as the North End in Boston, the Mission District in San Francisco, SoHo in NYC, The French Quarter in New Orleans, and so on and so forth. The neighborhood has the potential to not just be the crown jewel of our city and state, but a neighborhood that's synonymous with those above mentioned neighborhood and a jewel for all americans to consider as a, "must visit".

 

I'm just afraid if people visit OTR now (especially out of town tourists who don't have a complete understanding of what is occurring in OTR), especially when it's going through on going gentrification and redevelopment,  that ultimately people won't have the opportunity to see the gem that OTR has the potential to be, but rather the vacant buildings that are on the hinge of collapsing, the empty surface parking lots, and streets that are still incredibly dangerous to walk along, and thus will "sour" there perception of OTR.

 

 

It's pretty easy to explain it's a work in progress and to come back in a few years as there may be more stuff.

Turns out I understood you.

 

This is like the couple who for years refuses to invite their friends to dinner cause they still have a few home projects to finish up. (Ok, "guilty".) It's sad cause the friends drift away thinking the couple didn't really like them, cause they refused to invite them into their lives.

 

As far as I'm concerned fountain square is our living room and OTR is the amazing new addition we are in the process of making. Most people are more fascinated with seeing the progress on the new addition. Even if they go home and say "that's gonna be really nice when it's done, but sure glad it's not me!"

I think you guys are misunderstanding what I'm trying to convey.

 

As a cincinnatian I take great pride with what is occurring in Over the Rhine. It's made long strides to where it was 5 years ago.

 

My point is, Over the Rhine has the potential to be so much more. In my mind I envision a fully revitalized Over the Rhine, where every building is filled with homes and shops. Where every building has been rehabbed and every building has a fresh new coat of paint. Where every street is safe, no matter whether it's morning, afternoon, or night.

 

This isn't going to magically happen. What can you do to help make it happen?

 

Until that day, I don't want tourists from out of town to see OTR. Because in my mind, a fully revitalized OTR will have the same drawing power as the North End in Boston, the Mission District in San Francisco, SoHo in NYC, The French Quarter in New Orleans, and so on and so forth. The neighborhood has the potential to not just be the crown jewel of our city and state, but a neighborhood that's synonymous with those above mentioned neighborhood and a jewel for all americans to consider as a, "must visit".

 

I'm just afraid if people visit OTR now (especially out of town tourists who don't have a complete understanding of what is occurring in OTR), especially when it's going through on going gentrification and redevelopment,  that ultimately people won't have the opportunity to see the gem that OTR has the potential to be, but rather the vacant buildings that are on the hinge of collapsing, the empty surface parking lots, and streets that are still incredibly dangerous to walk along, and thus will "sour" there perception of OTR.

 

Urban areas are gritty. That's one of the reasons why people like them. New York is gritty. San Francisco is gritty. But those places get millions of visitors every year and have people that love living there.

 

Even the most polished parts of OTR are still a work in progress. On Vine Street, between Central Parkway and 14th, there are still vacant storefronts, surface parking lots, and underutilized buildings. And yet, tons of people visit and enjoy the shops and restaurants along that stretch.

 

The only way that investors are going to come in and spend millions of dollars fixing up buildings in OTR is if they see people willing to visit the neighborhood and/or live there.

 

Last year, I was talking to a guy who had lived in OTR about 5 years ago but moved to Europe, and was visiting OTR after being away for several years. He was complaining to me about how OTR had turned into "Blue Ash" (his words). So, as you make the neighborhood more polished, you might attract people who were unwilling to visit the grittier OTR. But you also turn off people who prefer their urban areas to have some grit.

I think you guys are misunderstanding what I'm trying to convey.

 

As a cincinnatian I take great pride with what is occurring in Over the Rhine. It's made long strides to where it was 5 years ago.

 

My point is, Over the Rhine has the potential to be so much more. In my mind I envision a fully revitalized Over the Rhine, where every building is filled with homes and shops. Where every building has been rehabbed and every building has a fresh new coat of paint. Where every street is safe, no matter whether it's morning, afternoon, or night.

 

This isn't going to magically happen. What can you do to help make it happen?

 

Until that day, I don't want tourists from out of town to see OTR. Because in my mind, a fully revitalized OTR will have the same drawing power as the North End in Boston, the Mission District in San Francisco, SoHo in NYC, The French Quarter in New Orleans, and so on and so forth. The neighborhood has the potential to not just be the crown jewel of our city and state, but a neighborhood that's synonymous with those above mentioned neighborhood and a jewel for all americans to consider as a, "must visit".

 

I'm just afraid if people visit OTR now (especially out of town tourists who don't have a complete understanding of what is occurring in OTR), especially when it's going through on going gentrification and redevelopment,  that ultimately people won't have the opportunity to see the gem that OTR has the potential to be, but rather the vacant buildings that are on the hinge of collapsing, the empty surface parking lots, and streets that are still incredibly dangerous to walk along, and thus will "sour" there perception of OTR.

 

Urban areas are gritty. That's one of the reasons why people like them. New York is gritty. San Francisco is gritty. But those places get millions of visitors every year and have people that love living there.

 

Even the most polished parts of OTR are still a work in progress. On Vine Street, between Central Parkway and 14th, there are still vacant storefronts, surface parking lots, and underutilized buildings. And yet, tons of people visit and enjoy the shops and restaurants along that stretch.

 

The only way that investors are going to come in and spend millions of dollars fixing up buildings in OTR is if they see people willing to visit the neighborhood and/or live there.

 

Last year, I was talking to a guy who had lived in OTR about 5 years ago but moved to Europe, and was visiting OTR after being away for several years. He was complaining to me about how OTR had turned into "Blue Ash" (his words). So, as you make the neighborhood more polished, you might attract people who were unwilling to visit the grittier OTR. But you also turn off people who prefer their urban areas to have some grit.

 

I understand what your saying.

 

But there's a difference between visiting Harlem and the Bronx in NYC, and visiting say SoHO.

 

The future for OTR is undoubtedly to become the next SoHO (at least the Midwest version of SoHo). A place filled with mostly fine dining/trendy restaurant concepts, and high end fashion retailers and boutiques. An area, similar to SoHo, that will demand the highest rent in all of Cincinnati.

 

Again, that's way far off, and I know the ultimate goal for most here that OTR would be to keep its mixed income (similar to how it was since the early 20th century) with residents of all races and income. Maintain it's diversity.

 

But I honestly don't see that happenning. Granted, it won't happen tomorrow, or next year, or even 5 years from now. But I do envision a day where OTR will be scattered with Starbucks, Verizon stores, and other chain retailers/shops, and be a very beautiful, but an expensive place to live/eat/shop/play destination.

 

I just don't see OTR (long term future wise) maintaining this gritty urban feel, but rather the same "feel" you would get if you visited the French Quarters, North End in Boston, Old Montreal in Montreal, SoHo in NYC and so on. But that's just my opinion and thoughts...

 

Midwest version of Soho is really river North in Chicago, but otr is still an important neighborhood, perhaps the Midwest version of Greenwich village but with out as deep an arts legacy.

 

Very little of sf is still gritty other than the south east neighborhoods and some of the tenderloin. Just ask c-dawg. Otr is going the same way...

 

Back to the original topic... There is a really cool project going on right now called Look Here! As you walk around the neighborhood, you will see historical photos placed near the actual locations where they were taken.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BAuhbdJM8yJ/

Midwest version of Soho is really river North in Chicago, but otr is still an important neighborhood, perhaps the Midwest version of Greenwich village but with out as deep an arts legacy.

 

Very little of sf is still gritty other than the south east neighborhoods and some of the tenderloin. Just ask c-dawg. Otr is going the same way...

 

 

Yeah, nowhere in SF is gritty compared to any Rust Belt city. As an ex-Tenderloiner, I can tell you that neighborhood has changed 100%. The working poor are gone (which I used to be), the Vietnamese immigrants are getting evicted, and all that's left are rich kids and homeless people in the streets. The new nightlife is absolutely going after the top 1%. It's one of the most expensive neighborhoods in SF to go out. Drinks are quite a bit more than the Marina, and nearly as expensive as the Mission. Apartments are insanely expensive like everywhere else in SF- some prices tripling and quadrupling since Twitter moved in. It's the most unequal neighborhood in America, but it's way safer than it used to be. The only parts of SF still dealing with significant violent crime would be Ingleside and Bayview-Hunter's Point. It's nothing compared to Rust Belt cities, and the poorest neighborhood in SF would have higher median net worth than the wealthiest neighborhood in any Rust Belt city due to home values alone.

 

San Francisco's Tenderloin is certainly still a drug and sex trade free-for-all, but that's just due to SF's liberal policing, not any sort of grit. The cops let you get away with crime there because they want to keep the seedy underbelly of SF away from the tourist neighborhoods. San Francisco has always tolerated drug dealing and prostitution. It's more like Amsterdam than most American cities. There is a heavy police patrol on Mason Street to keep the TL from spilling into Union Square. The whole neighborhood is surrounded by a police perimeter. SF overall has one the nation's lowest violent crime rates (though property crime is getting quite high due to the big increase in vagrancy), and I think SFPD's style of policing is to thank for it. It's genius. SFPD puts tons of resources into the vice neighborhood to make sure people are safe when they party there, but they don't go as far as stopping you from buying heroin or picking up a hooker. The city has always turned a blind eye to vice to a degree that I think is wholly unique in the United States. That's one aspect of SF's liberalism that has lived on since the free love 1960's.

 

The Mission has no grit left whatsoever. It's almost all millionaires now, and the small, local gangs got evicted. Some try to go back to get in on the tech coke trade, but it's a lost cause against the long-established coke cartels in Oakland who dominate the West Coast industry. The Mission District is still a little dirty in a few areas due to the homeless. Maybe people think 16th Street BART station is gritty since it smells like urine? Like the Tenderloin (or any SF neighborhood), this is due to SF's extreme lack of housing. Homeless people are spreading everywhere in the city, and it's going to continue to get worse until about 300,000 housing units are built in SF/OAK. There are now people making six figure incomes living in tents on the streets of San Francisco and Oakland. Even some Googlers are ending up homeless now. In the Bay, housing is viewed as a privilege, not a right, hence why parts of San Francisco look like a public toilet. But make no mistake, there are millionaires everywhere in SF. Just because a guy is shooting up heroin and taking a dump on the doorstep doesn't mean the people in that building are worse off than any other trust fund kids or tech marketing executives. You live wherever the hell you can, hence Twitter's push into the Tenderloin.

 

Now Oakland on the other hand....yeah, still some grit in gentrifying West Oakland and East Oakland. The Oakland grit looks like nothing compared to hardcore Rust Belt cities like Toledo and Cleveland, but crime is actually quite a bit worse (and more random) in bad Oakland neighborhoods. California ghettos cannot be judged on their looks. There are many neighborhoods in Oakland where every home is millions of dollars, the streets look good (cleaner than SF), and people still get robbed at gunpoint all the time. West Oakland has lots of areas like this- hyper-gentrified blocks with tons of crime. I think West Oakland crime may be on par with what Over-the-Rhine was like at its absolute worst right after the riots. Like most cities after riots, I think Cincinnati saw a crime spike related to this unrest. Now imagine riots being a monthly event as normal as an art walk, and that's the crime situation in Oakland.

 

Keep in mind I remember Over-the-Rhine only as a decrepit, dangerous ghetto, so any transformation will look good to me. I saw it in the 90's up until the early 2000's after the riots. It almost looked hopeless back then (some places literally looked like they were going to fall into the street), so it's shocking to see all this redevelopment. It's an incredible story and a lesson for other American cities to follow.

 

*And I'm from Toledo. Now that is some real Rust Belt grit...:wink:

 

**I also think heavy industry and abandoned factories make cities gritty. That's why Toledo, Buffalo, and Detroit are so damn gritty. It's also why Oakland is the grittiest city in California (it was once an industrial city). The people aren't gritty (just mentally unstable and able to get away with anything since Oakland is so soft on crime), but the fact Oakland has abandoned factories, shipyards, rail yards, old industrial facilities, etc. is what makes it look gritty. Oakland looks like Toledo and Buffalo, just with palm trees and hipster$$$. It looks nothing like other California cities. It's straight out of the Rust Belt Midwest in its structure. Oakland perhaps as late as the mid-2000's would have looked a lot like Toledo. Paths obviously diverged, but only recently has Oakland become a mecca of the 1%. It was one of the cheapest and poorest places in coastal California up until tech boom 2.0. No city has undergone faster gentrification in history...due to lack of housing construction forcing 10,000 evictions a year in Oakland. San Francisco only has a fraction of that, say 2,000 evictions a year, give or take. Oakland is quite a bit more NIBMY than SF. Oakland's anti-housing politics are a way to force hyper gentrification and make sure only the richest people can get in. It's totally crazy, but people vote for it. Property owners are trying to get it in before the bubble bursts...unfortunately this is not a bubble. :|

 

A million dollar abandoned Victorian in West Oakland is not gritty. A 100-year-old abandoned factory with bullet holes in the windows in East Oakland is gritty. :|

 

OTR would have potential to be like San Francisco's Mission District in the sense that there are the urban bones for 100% gentrification- with maybe even second and third wave "hyper-gentrification" as we call it in the Bay. Of course, at the pace things move in Cincinnati, this would take at least 50 years...nothing will happen as fast there as it did in the Mission. The speed of gentrification in the Mission isn't even remotely possible in Manhattan. There just isn't that kind of money in New York City. Imagine Harlem in 1980 turning into the SOHO of today in the span of five years. And the Mission is way, way wealthier than SOHO. Mark Zuckerberg and other Mission millionaires don't choose to live in poor town, and they'd clutch their hoodies at the thought of living in multi-classed New York City. Anywhere in Manhattan, you can run into someone from the middle class. There are literally whole neighborhoods in San Francisco where that doesn't happen anymore. You almost have to go to tourist neighborhoods in SF to get some real class diversity. San Francisco is getting that bad. New York just isn't that extreme. There is way more class mixing going on there.

 

***In Cincinnati I see a lot more parallels to Brooklyn than the Bay. I can see Williamsburg, Greenpoint, or Crown Heights as targets for OTR. Though realistically, Bushwick or Bed-Stuy is more on par demographically (I guess Cincy is prettier). But there is also the possibility of OTR going the path of top tier Portland and Seattle neighborhoods. I see Queen Anne or Capitol Hill as potential targets. The Pearl too. Naysayers may say I'm nuts, but renovated top tier Pacific Northwest neighborhoods with million-dollar condos could be in Cincinnati's future. Perhaps I need to visit to get a feel for the still gritty areas...those are the areas I'm most interested in, unless the building is falling down or something.

 

What is the overall condition of the still vacant buildings in Over-the-Rhine? Is it like other Rust Belt cities where people strip copper in a reckless fashion destroying the walls? Are foundations intact? Are walls and floors level? Are roofs intact? Is erosion still an issue in Cincinnati?

 

Is there potential for total renovation or are we talking more facade saves? How bad did it actually get?

 

Given foliage, hilly geography, weather, etc. I see Portland, or if we're reaching, Seattle, as potential targets. I don't think Cincinnati will ever have the capital to create Capitol Hill, but it's going to be all nice, clean streets. I agree it won't have grit. Ohio's nice hoods aren't fans of grit. Grit only exists in gentrified neighborhoods in cities with strong rent control, hence the situation in Oakland.

 

Does Cincinnati have rent control?

 

It's really as simple as that. Any time you see gritty holdouts in the Bay or Manhattan, it's because of rent control. Without rent control, neighborhoods can 100% gentrify...though SF has loopholes like being able to move in family members to evict ("owner move-in eviction" is the easiest way to get someone kicked out of a rent control unit), and more importantly, the ability to turn your apartment into an Airbnb rental.

this is a pretty good one to

 

San Francisco is a beautiful city, but its disappointing that beauty is becoming more and more reserved exclusively for the rich.

 

Having a city built on the poor, the middle class, and the rich is what gives you a city that becomes rich in diversity and culture. When almost all of the population are tech moguls, or startup wunderkinds, or wealthy retired old people, you kind of create a city that isn't really a city anymore, but a Disneyland of sorts for the wealthy.

 

Granted I know there's poverty in San Francisco, and there's pretty high homeless rates, but still, it's scary how the city is becoming a playland solely the rich can afford. I can't imagine how SanFran will look 15-20 years down the line :(

^And yet, that's what you seem to want to see happen to OTR.

^And yet, that's what you seem to want to see happen to OTR.

 

Not necessarily. At first I did, solely because in my mind I thought if OTR was reserved for the rich, then crime would completely disappear. The thought of being able to venture out to any part of OTR, regardless of morning, noon or night and never feel bothered or afraid for my life sounded like heaven.

 

But I also came to realize, that would make OTR awful. It wouldn't be a city anymore. It would be a rich man's club. And I don't want that.

 

 

But I'm also not stupid. The love architecture, culture, and history. They love fine dining, and late night wine drinking. They love to have a good time. Granted I'm not trying to generalize, I'm sure there are plenty of rich people that could care less about the above mentioned things, but if the high rent cost in places like SoHO, Greenwich, North End, and other such lavish/historic/cultured epicenters of there respective cities are anything to note, is that the rich like nice things.

 

OTR, once fully rehabbed will be a very, very nice thing. Whether OTR will remain diverse 20 years down the line is a giant question mark waiting to be seen.

>What is the overall condition of the still vacant buildings in Over-the-Rhine?

 

Very bad. Exterior masonry walls are often in danger of collapse, floors and joists are rotted out, and there is sometimes deep standing water in basements. 

 

 

>Are walls and floors level?

 

No, not even in some renovated buildings.  I remember taking a step into a 3CDC condo on 12th St. in 2012 and hearing a creak on my first step into the unit.  That thing was priced at $160k.  If I had bought it then I could resell it today for $260k. 

 

 

>Are roofs intact?

 

Absolutely not.

 

 

>Is erosion still an issue in Cincinnati?

 

On hillsides, yes.  It's very risky to buy a vacant hillside lot.  New construction might require $100,000+ in retaining walls and other very expensive prep work. 

 

 

>Does Cincinnati have rent control?

 

No, but my grandfather told me that he did when he was renting an apartment in Clifton in the 1940s.  He told me that the landlords often forced tenants to pay them cash above the rent controlled amount or else he'd find a way to evict them. 

 

 

OTR would have potential to be like San Francisco's Mission District in the sense that there are the urban bones for 100% gentrification- with maybe even second and third wave "hyper-gentrification" as we call it in the Bay. Of course, at the pace things move in Cincinnati, this would take at least 50 years...nothing will happen as fast there as it did in the Mission. The speed of gentrification in the Mission isn't even remotely possible in Manhattan. There just isn't that kind of money in New York City. Imagine Harlem in 1980 turning into the SOHO of today in the span of five years. And the Mission is way, way wealthier than SOHO. Mark Zuckerberg and other Mission millionaires don't choose to live in poor town, and they'd clutch their pearls at the thought of living in multi-classed New York City. Anywhere in Manhattan, you can run into someone from the middle class. There are literally whole neighborhoods in San Francisco where that doesn't happen anymore. You almost have to go to tourist neighborhoods in SF to get some real class diversity. San Francisco is getting that bad. New York just isn't that extreme. There is way more class mixing going on there.

 

Since you haven't been in Cincy for awhile, I'll tell you that the progress in OTR has been like 30 years of Cincinnati pace gentrification in 10.  Its causing old timers to go nuts (both frustrating outer neighborhood types who hate change and idiot homeless advocates - google Buddy Grey to get an idea of how they see the world - who want the neighborhood to be a kumbayaa homless refuge).  Its mindblowing for Cincinnatians but comparable to the level of hyper-gentrification that's been going on in Chicago for the last 20 years - just shy of SF insanity but way more than anyone in Cincy has ever experienced in their lifetime.  I'd give OTR another 15-20 (esp. with teh streetcar) years not 50.

 

IMO from here on out Cincy should be talked about like Chicago as far as gentrification progress goes, I think its reached a turning point.

Yeah I was going to mention the same thing. ^ Funny enough, wasn't Buddy Grey killed by the very people he was trying to protect? (if I recall correctly some homeless man murdered him)

 

And yeah. Pretty much all of this change that's being put on display is pretty much from 2011-2012 and onward. The gentrification you see on Vine/Race/Main have been extremely rapidly paced. When 3cdc constructed the Mercer Common lofts, (and since the announcement of the streetcar) things have just been rapidly developing and gentrifying.

 

Literally all of this progress seen today didn't exist 5 years ago.

If you think of OTR, it is a very big neighborhood and I would guess only around 25% of the actual land area, IF That much, has been restored.  There is a ton of area left to redevelop, etc.  I would be very dissapointed if parts of Northern OTR were made over just for the rich. Places like this will be perfect for young professionals along / next to Vine Street.  Keep in mind, I am assuming most of this is vacant, so I am not advocating full blown gentrification at all:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1152562,-84.5159279,3a,75y,177.39h,92.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEIZ22_qMa6g2ECH98ciWmg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

 

or this area:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.115317,-84.513743,3a,75y,302.24h,99.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXnDmPlsDd8aIysx3D6jYbQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

 

or:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1169198,-84.5149531,3a,75y,233.43h,79.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shfKW6E5WPFA2tjXOUt2xyw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

 

or:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1145642,-84.5163463,3a,75y,341.71h,90.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spQy8H3iWmwpmJViOdZHlmg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

 

Now, I also believe that if these are re-built as still low income housing / rent controlled, that this would still greatly help the area.  People will feel better about their lives if they live in nice homes and will want to take care of them better, and then also on the flip side, it would save the buildings.

 

What I am trying to say is that, there is a ton of room to add a lot more people to the core while preserving current buildings.  It seems at this time, all space directly on or one block from the streetcar is going to fill up fairly fast but there is still a huge corridor (North OTR Vine Street) and vicinity, East McMicken, areas of East Clifton Avenue, that have a lot of work to be done that will take a long time to do.

 

 

^The problem is that people are paying so much now for buildings in disastrous condition that they can't make money renovating them.  So we'll probably see as much or more infill on empty lots than restoration of vacant buildings. 

If you think of OTR, it is a very big neighborhood and I would guess only around 25% of the actual land area, IF That much, has been restored.  There is a ton of area left to redevelop, etc.  I would be very dissapointed if parts of Northern OTR were made over just for the rich. Places like this will be perfect for young professionals along / next to Vine Street.  Keep in mind, I am assuming most of this is vacant, so I am not advocating full blown gentrification at all:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1152562,-84.5159279,3a,75y,177.39h,92.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEIZ22_qMa6g2ECH98ciWmg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

 

or this area:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.115317,-84.513743,3a,75y,302.24h,99.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXnDmPlsDd8aIysx3D6jYbQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

 

or:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1169198,-84.5149531,3a,75y,233.43h,79.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shfKW6E5WPFA2tjXOUt2xyw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

 

or:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1145642,-84.5163463,3a,75y,341.71h,90.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spQy8H3iWmwpmJViOdZHlmg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

 

Now, I also believe that if these are re-built as still low income housing / rent controlled, that this would still greatly help the area.  People will feel better about their lives if they live in nice homes and will want to take care of them better, and then also on the flip side, it would save the buildings.

 

What I am trying to say is that, there is a ton of room to add a lot more people to the core while preserving current buildings.  It seems at this time, all space directly on or one block from the streetcar is going to fill up fairly fast but there is still a huge corridor (North OTR Vine Street) and vicinity, East McMicken, areas of East Clifton Avenue, that have a lot of work to be done that will take a long time to do.

 

 

 

I'll be an old man, but I cannot wait until there is fully restored/populated neighborhoods in Cincy from downtown to the University - it would be like a mini Boston in the midwest :)

 

I'm also going to add that instead of direct rent control, there still is a requirement that 30% of all 3CDC development is reserved for the affordable housing - while not gritty it will mean that the neighborhood won't quite be the same as SF, the outcome will be more balanced.

 

There are also PLENTY more areas for spillover effects.  There are even some large boarded up warehouses in the west end for instance.  I don't think supply levels will be that severely constrained.

OTR is very much like Soho and the LES, but there's def an aggravated vibe that NY'ers seem to have in regards to big money taking over Soho and it seems like people are starting to be moved from Soho to LES and Brooklyn. You're starting to see more and more big names come in and push smaller guys out. Williamsburg, Brooklyn area is definitely the trendy area now (or has been).

 

I think the LES is pretty close to OTR.

 

I don't want to get to that point though, where a Michael Kors store comes in and pushes people out of their apartment or shuts down an art gallery.

I can't believe you guys are comparing OTR to SoHo. What exactly are you comparing? What are we talking about? In terms of what? I personally think OTR is VERY unique!  If you're considering a physical analysis of the neighborhood; the physical architecture and urban infrastructure, I'd say OTR is on track to be similar to Society Hill more-so than anything else I've ever seen in America. As far as a social analysis of the neighborhood, I'd compare it to pretty much any gentrified neighborhood in Ohio. You don't even have to look very far geographically to find a comparison. As far as demographics, I don't think the people it attracts people who are any different than folks who live in Tremont - Cleveland or The Short North in Columbus. Lets not get ahead of ourselves, comparing it to SoHo, a neighborhood that attracts people with an insane amount of wealth, probably a third of whom have dual citizenship in other states and hell, even countries. Most people who live in SoHo have no loyalty to their neighborhood, no history with their neighborhood and probably don't even spend much money in their own neighborhood. I don't know the statistics regarding comparative incomes but just from the number of extremely wealthy celebrities (with a net worth of over $100M) I know of off hand who have properties in SoHo, I think it's safe to say that comparing SoHo to OTR is like comparing apples to oranges. I don't think it even makes sense to compare neighborhoods in large global cities to those in moderate-sized cities like Cincinnati, but that's just me.

 

There are so many people who fought endlessly to save Over-the-Rhine; trying to convince people of all of its potential despite most people insisting that they're crazy. There are people who have dedicated their entire life to investing in that neighborhood with hopes that it would be what it is today. I'm talking about small investors who, unlike developers in SoHo, put their own HARD EARNED savings on the line. Cincinnatians, please stop degrading yourself by comparing OTR to SoHo. If anything, SoHo should strive to be more like OTR.

^Agree with this, and SOHO isn't even rich by SF standards. The Mission District is an even bigger stretch for a Midwestern city since that level of wealth only exists in one place on the planet- San Francisco. We're not just talking hundreds of millions of dollars in the Mission, we're talking billions. Hollywood and Wall Street have got nothing on San Francisco/Silicon Valley wealth (though really, the SF-NY-LA money class is much more connected than people realize since many of them have real estate holdings in all three cities). There's no middle class left in San Francisco. There's the rich, the homeless, and the rent-controlled. Upper middle class is also pretty much gone in the Bay. It's wholly unique in its wealth and metro-wide cost-of-living (and greed, anti-housing politics, Prop 13, etc.), whereas New York City still has plenty of middle class left. NYC's housing policies lead to more construction. Cincinnati will not reach the level of gentrification seen in San Francisco or Lower Manhattan (the NY property value protecting NIMBY's are really just in parts of Manhattan). It could reach Brooklyn gentrification levels though, since Brooklyn isn't that wealthy. Median incomes there are low and most millennial residents in Brooklyn do not have housing equity or long-term rent control. Brooklyn's "Move to Detroit" billboards are targeted at these young people. I could easily see a pipeline into Cincinnati too.

 

Outside the Bay and Manhattan, most other gentrified neighborhoods in America lack actual economic backbone. They're filled with people over-extending themselves for image reasons. Many neighborhoods pretending to be rich aren't actually rich. A lot of the young people in Brooklyn literally live paycheck-to-paycheck. They're nothing like my new neighbors in Oakland who are 25, retired, have millions in cash, trust funds, real estate inheritance, equity in startups, series A investments with advisory positions at venture capital firms, and complete freedom to live anywhere in the world. I am one of the last people in my building with a job. I just have never seen that kind of concentrated wealth in Brooklyn...a few parts of Manhattan, maybe, but not in Brooklyn. When I lived in the outer Mission, the wealth completely obliterated what you find in wealthy Oakland neighborhoods. There were literally guys on the board of multiple VC firms pulling 5-10 million a year. Some of these people were under 25. Some of their parties had rented tigers, supermodels, mountains of cocaine, the world's top Molly, etc. I've never seen that level of excess in other cities or "real America." San Francisco is ridiculous, and it's not a good model for any city. I love SF, but no way do I think it's healthy or realistic for other cities to copy. The lack of diversity has gotten very disturbing and is leading to all sorts of problems. Cincinnati is real America. It's about as #RealAmerica as it gets. That's not a bad thing. I bet it's quite a lot less classist and less racist than San Francisco or Oakland. I mean, "walking while black" is becoming a crime in the Bay now:

 

 

Cincinnati isn't like this, is it? I never got very classist vibes in Ohio and racial redlining seemed a lot less common. I don't think Ohio has had widespread redlining in 40 years...

 

Cincinnati can compare to Portland though. Portland is not an economic hotbed, and many of its Ohio transplants are prime for the taking. It's important to remember hot cities around America are filled with ex-Ohioans. I actually meet a lot of ex-Cincinnatians in Portland who have a new interest in Ohio since Portland rents started taking off. America's housing situation is a mess, and Rust Belt cities are the best bang-for-buck. The common belief that millennials don't want to own property is false. Most of them don't own property because most of them are priced out in their current cities. :|

 

Cincinnati could be a realistic housing goal for transplants, and OTR's location is prime, literally right by downtown. The potential is big. There aren't many affordable neighborhoods left in America with that housing stock so close to downtown.

 

There are so many people who fought endlessly to save Over-the-Rhine; trying to convince people of all of its potential despite most people insisting that they're crazy. There are people who have dedicated their entire life to investing in that neighborhood with hopes that it would be what it is today

 

This is what's unique when compared to global wealth centers like the Bay. In SF/Oakland, many buildings are owned by property investors who don't live in the neighborhood. It does sound like OTR has a lot of people invested for the long haul, not short-term property flippers or Airbnb investors. That doesn't make Cincinnatians any better or worse, but it does mean the neighborhood has potential to retain some of its culture and character. SF and Oakland rentals are dominated by real estate interests from outside their respective neighborhoods. A lot of SF apartment buildings, particularly in the Mission, have been flipped into hostels and Airbnb rentals, which outperform any traditional housing investment. If you've ever been to the  Bitcoin frat house, this is what I'm talking about.

 

*We really need to get a thread going on Airbnb. That's the real rental loophole that has led to the shitshow in San Francisco, and it could be repeated in other hot cities. Landlords don't re-rent most rent controlled units when they become vacant, because Airbnb is way more profitable. In hyper gentrified neighborhoods, it's common to see a depletion of rental stock coincide with a rise in Airbnb listings. When hundreds of wealthy people are willing to pay Airbnb rates for an open apartment, no need for yearly or even monthly leases.

You nailed why that Soho comparison bugs me. Again the closest the Midwest has to that a once derelict now hip area of manufacturing and warehouses that went though an arty phase and now attracts very wealthy urban elites from around the world is river north in Chicago.  I don't see anywhere else being like that in the Midwest.

 

^I hate to say it, but I see Chicago eventually going the way of San Francisco and Manhattan. :| Not this decade, but ten years from now.

 

Granted, I'm aware Chicago is where "New York City meets Detroit," but the strong urban nodes with transit could get crazy expensive. It just currently flies under the radar of a lot of Bay Area and New York City investors. It's undiscovered territory. This is at their own detriment, since Chicago hangs well with other global cities. It just has failed at attracting the trust fund kids and institutionally wealthy. That's part of the reason Chicago still has middle class culture. The antics you see in the Bay probably wouldn't fly there. Practical, level-headed Chicagoans would think they're nuts. :|

 

I like Portland or Seattle as models, because Cincinnati is similar, but unlikely to suffer the same supply constraints. I think there is room for both an ultra-wealthy Capitol Hill type of neighborhood right next to a middle class neighborhood in Cincinnati. Maybe this is just my utopian vision of a diverse, mixed-class society, but I've always felt Ohioans are pretty open to class diversity. I don't anticipate a middle class city like Cincinnati trying to eradicate its middle class. Then again, San Franciscans said the same thing about Oakland...but like David said, we're talking apples and oranges.

 

Perhaps this urban gentrification thing only gets as ridiculous as the market can allow. Cincinnati is not on the real estate radar, so it has a long way to go before this is an issue...

 

This is super random...and only started learning about this when reseraching the Cesisil Hotel, and the mysterious murder of Elisa Lam...but apperantly Skid Row is gentrifying, and there are such things as skid row hipsters.

 

That blows my mind, all things considering skid row is essientially a mini city for the homeless.