December 1, 20159 yr ^If the Tenderloin can gentrify, Skid Row can gentrify. Skid Row isn't even that bad compared to what the TL used to be like. Thank you for bringing it up since the gentrification is just getting started there and it's going to offer more lessons for other cities than crazy expensive San Francisco or Oakland do. I like the Tenderloin and Skid Row comparisons a lot more than the Mission or SoHo comparisons. OTR, like the TL and Skid Row, is a downtown adjacent neighborhood that suffered for decades from neglect, violent crime, drugs, prostitution, vagrancy, etc. Neighborhoods like the Mission and SoHo never got anywhere near that bad. Statistically-speaking, OTR was nationally ranked in poverty and crime. That puts it in the Tenderloin (pre-Twitter) and Skid Row club (also throw Uptown Oakland in there). The only obvious difference is that the TL is a lot more intact and and has never suffered from Rust Belt-level building deterioration. Even the long-neglected buildings remained immaculate compared to Rust Belt cities. Thank California's mild weather and the seriously strong building stock in San Francisco's core. The TL has survived every earthquake since 1906 with barely any damage and the urban building stock is arguably the best on the West Coast. One could say similar things about OTR, but it sounds like buildings have suffered more damage. :| I'd say we might see more building losses in Cincinnati. Redevelopment will be a mix of infill and restoration. It likely won't be able to retain as much historic character as the TL. *In the case of extremely bad neighborhoods like this, some gentrification is needed. I'm fine with kicking out drug addicts and violent criminals if that gives a working person a chance at putting a roof over their heads. It was insane how bad the Tenderloin got considering its location, quality of building stock, and the money that surrounded it. Though I can't afford to live there anymore, the neighborhood had serious issues that lowered everybody's quality of life. Today's Tenderloin is a much better place. It's insanely overpriced, but it's now more fun to go out there, and the nightlife black hole between Lower Nob Hill and Market Street is filling in. **And this proves that any urban neighborhood can gentrify, no matter how dangerous or impoverished, as long as there is the right combination of location, surrounding money, and quality building stock. The Tenderloin underwent the most dramatic transformation of any homeless drug ghetto in America. The building renovations look outstanding. Many of the homeless are still there, but they're sharing the streets with millionaires now. Skid Row is showing early signs of the transformation seen in the Tenderloin: Skid row tenants accuse landlord of trying to drive them out of building Tenants at a five-story residential hotel on skid row filed suit Monday accusing landlords of launching a campaign of harassment and intimidation to drive them out of the building. The lawsuit, filed in Los Angeles County Superior Court, accuses owner Kameron Segal and his management company, William Holdings, of allowing slum-like conditions, including roach and bedbug infestations and clogged toilets, to fester at the 220-unit Madison Hotel on 7th Street. The landlords canceled maid service and linen cleaning, quit supplying toilet paper and replacing light bulbs and closed off the lobby and TV room, the suit said. These amenities had long been included for residents, who live in single rooms and share common bathrooms. Several tenants accused the on-site manager of berating and threatening them with ouster if they complained, and of barging into their units without notice. Managers also barred organizers from Los Angeles Community Action Network, a skid row anti-poverty group, from entering the premises to talk to tenants, the suit said. http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-skid-row-landlord-suit-20151130-story.html All this was standard practice in San Francisco. This is what gentrification feels like when you're poor. Skid Row is entering its first stage. This is a part of the urban development narrative you rarely read about in media, and props to the LA Times for getting the perspective from Skid Row residents. I bet similar things happened in Over-the-Rhine in the buildings that were still occupied. We just didn't hear about it. A lot of horrible things are done to encourage poor people to leave a neighborhood once real estate interests take notice. It's the dark, ugly side of how our urban redevelopment works. Many good people get thrown to the streets along with the bad. What Ohio cities should do is take a good hard look at the West Coast and East Coast hotspots to see how to be more fair with their redevelopment and evictions when rents escalate. The Tenderloin's gentrification has been completely ruthless and priced out people like myself. I think there has got to be a way to allow some working poor and recent immigrants to stay in a hot neighborhood, but America just doesn't have a good model of it yet. I'm speaking personally, but there is evidence that this is the best way for people to get out of poverty, not evicting them. Places like the Tenderloin made good entry points if you were a poor San Francisco transplant. When you're in a poor neighborhood that rich people are moving into, there can be real class mixing. You get chances to network with the rich people. You drink with them at the same bars. You hook up with the rich girls at the nightclubs. You find out later they're executives at big companies who can help you get an interview. This is how you get out of poverty in America. Not all people who live in the ghetto are ghetto. The way poor people get stereotyped in America is sickening. Very few people who are in poverty deserve to be there. It's usually just bad luck or being born into the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm fine with being hard on drug addicts and criminals, but most poor people are anything but that. The worst drug addicts I know are rich people. The worst property crime ever committed was done on Wall Street. Over-the-Rhine is historically comparable to the TL or Skid Row, but the difference is it's in Cincinnati, not California. I'll bet money OTR will push out any seediness left. They're not going to pull a San Francisco and keep around the drug dens and whorehouses as an amusement park for rich people. Cincinnati's conservative streak is going to make things different. It never struck me as the kind of city that'd let grown men walk around naked or let heroin addicts shoot up in the open for people to see on their way to work. From what I remember of Ohio, I'm also guessing Cincinnati folks still frown on public pooping. The Tenderloin is unique since even today, there is no real desire to push out the drugs and prostitution. SF is also much more tolerant of homeless camps than other cities. "It's better to have all these homeless camps than build housing!" is sadly pretty common to hear in the Bay...San Francisco was fine with pushing out the working poor and immigrants of the Tenderloin, but it allowed the addicts to stay. I hope Cincinnati does the opposite.
December 1, 20159 yr The Tenderloin is unique since even today, there is no real desire to push out the drugs and prostitution. SF is also much more tolerant of homeless camps than other cities. "It's better to have all these homeless camps than build housing!" is sadly pretty common to hear in the Bay...San Francisco was fine with pushing out the working poor and immigrants of the Tenderloin, but it allowed the addicts to stay. I hope Cincinnati does the opposite. I think Cincy will - there has been a pretty nice balance of affordable housing vs market rate. The only thing that might be a problem is serving the middle but literally only in OTR - there is so much more to save in Cincy that there is room for more people. Btw, Chicago's core may get more like SF/Manhattan but one key difference is our attitude towards building up - skyscrapers are a proud part of Chicago's architectural tradition and while places like Lincoln Park or the far northwest neighborhoods hate density much of the city is far more welcoming of it than SF is especially. There are huge developable swaths of land out around the United center for instance that are zoned for mid to high density housing - considering how hot the West Loop is that land is next - there is lots of room, the only issue Chicago has is developing more TOD near stations to satisfy demand (being addressed) and expanding transit (not being addressed as well as it should - after Ashland Ave, there should be an East-West BRT to cover undeserved areas - perhaps on North Ave from Western Ave to Oak Park - that area is very under-served and also is experiencing some degree of spillover growth from Wicker Park and Logan Square getting more pricey. Not only that but there are huge areas not far from downtown that are almost empty fields in the South Side - you could have reasonable commutes with good transit access (add a few infill stations on the Green line, which already has been done in a few places) and redevelop those areas. While not as conservative as Cincinnati Chicago is still Midwestern and has a pragmatic streak you don't find in Cali, the biggest difference being a willingness to try new things that isn't as prevalent in the rest of the region.
December 1, 20159 yr I don't take action often but get this discussion back on "Photos of Over the Rhine" or I will move it somewhere else ...
December 2, 20159 yr Anyone have aerials of OTR from 1950 to present day? Going back to 1932: http://www.historicaerials.com/
December 2, 20159 yr Anyone have aerials of OTR from 1950 to present day? Going back to 1932: http://www.historicaerials.com/ My God, that 1932 aerial is freaken dense!
December 2, 20159 yr 100 years later Funny, for some reason I had always assumed that connector between the two buildings on the left side of the image was added during the Parvis Loft conversion. I hadn't realized it was actually original. I'm loving these!
December 2, 20159 yr Anyone have aerials of OTR from 1950 to present day? Going back to 1932: http://www.historicaerials.com/ My God, that 1932 aerial is freaken dense! Look at the 1956 one: you can trace the western half of the subway ROW. Then look at how filled-in the eastern half had become in terms of housing. Our subway would have been so successful at every point: industry, entertainment, residential.
December 13, 20159 yr Not sure why I like this picture so much...But the density, and the bicycle rides, and the row of cars in the background, just kind of reminscent of that 70's Vine street picture with all that density. I guess, it's just a reminder to me that things are looking up.
April 30, 20169 yr What year is the "before" picture? And, gee, what's that thing in the pavement at the far-lower-left that's pumping all the lifeblood into the neighborhood?? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 30, 20169 yr Before is probably 2007. The parking garage that both photos were taken from was finished in 2005 or 2006. The first storefront business opened in 2008 or 2009.
April 30, 20169 yr I think the top one is from 2004 or 2005 but I'm not totally sure; I couldn't find the original source. The bottom one is mine from 2015.
April 30, 20169 yr I'd imagine 2005 as well. 3CDC has an album from 2005 from around OTR and this group looks more or less identical to how they were in that album. And the Gateway condos were completed in 2005. Link for those who want to be amazed at how far we've truly come in a decade. 2005: 2004: Some stuff is literally challenging to recognize versus how it looks today.
May 1, 20169 yr ^Eesh. Travis, we should have a project to ID the spots of key photos in those groups and go get 2016 versions. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
May 2, 20169 yr I think the top one is from 2004 or 2005 but I'm not totally sure; I couldn't find the original source. The bottom one is mine from 2015. I'd love to see another picture from that similar vantage point, shifted slightly to the left, with a streetcar rolling by. Would make a great All Aboard Ohio newsletter pic. ;) "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 2, 20169 yr Read through this thread last night. OTR has been on my radar as a neighborhood I would like to check out if I ever get back down to Cincy. Quick question though, why are you all working so hard to calssify OTR as another city's neighborhood? (SOHO, Mission, Pearl). You don't want OTR to be anything other than, well, OTR. Some rag newspaper wrote a couple years ago that there were 5 cities that "were going to be the next Brooklyn" and Cleveland was on that list, which pissed me off because you don't want to be someone else....you want to be your own self...right?
May 3, 20169 yr ^Who is working to turn OTR into another city's neighborhood? There is inspiration to be gained from other city's success stories, and there are a few neighborhoods around the country that have similarities to OTR in terms of architecture, density, scale, history, etc., but I don't think anyone is trying to turn OTR into some entirely different place. How would one even do that? The revitalization of OTR has not left the neighborhood generic or less authentic. In fact, 3CDC purposefully has not leased to any chains, and the only chain you can find in OtR is Graeters, which is of course a local business. Affordable housing is still pretty prevalent in the neighborhood, there's a major focus on returning to the brewery history of OTR, we're reintroducing mass transit to the neighborhood, institutions like Findlay Market and Music Hall are all being invested in and growing in importance. In sum, I think OTR is transitioning, for sure, but in many ways, but it is retaining and building on much of its authentic and historical roots.
May 4, 20169 yr Read through this thread last night. OTR has been on my radar as a neighborhood I would like to check out if I ever get back down to Cincy. Quick question though, why are you all working so hard to calssify OTR as another city's neighborhood? (SOHO, Mission, Pearl). You don't want OTR to be anything other than, well, OTR. Some rag newspaper wrote a couple years ago that there were 5 cities that "were going to be the next Brooklyn" and Cleveland was on that list, which pissed me off because you don't want to be someone else....you want to be your own self...right? I think it's more due to the fact people want to label OTR with neighborhoods that share the same, "powerhouse weight" in terms of the SoHo's/Mission/Pearl district's of the world. When people think of SoHO or the Mission District, they think of it as a, "must see" neighborhood destination. A tourist attraction, that draws millions of tourists a year. I think that's why OTR is being grouped under that same bunch. People don't want OTR to be just, well OTR, they want it be THE number one reason why you visit Cincy. The must see neighborhood attraction. The neighborhood that becomes a travel destination for millions. It has the potential for that. Besides Charleston, Savannah, North End District in Boston, Mission District, Pearl District, there aren't really that many urban neighborhoods left in America that have the size and the density of OTR with so much beautiful architecture that remain intact.
June 7, 20169 yr Insane. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
June 8, 20169 yr Ugh cities should ban satellite dishes on the fronts of buildings. My house came with a dish network dish on the front...it's staying there until somebody forces me to take it down. It will be hilarious if it's still up there in 50 years.
July 14, 20168 yr Urban Sites recently repainted the building at 1201 Main. Looking much better now...
July 14, 20168 yr That building was last painted around 1998. It looked great for about ten years. The red OTR Adopt building at the corder of Vine and Findlay was just repainted gray last weekend. I hope they aren't finished because it definitely does not look as good grey as it did red.
July 19, 20168 yr This transformation is absolutely incredible, slightly makes me jealous! A neighborhood in Cleveland that could benefit from a transformation such as this is E.105th street all the way down to superior and/or the East Blvd. neighborhood. It would connect a once dilapidated neighborhood to University Circle. Carry on though you lucky dogs.
July 19, 20168 yr This transformation is absolutely incredible, slightly makes me jealous! A neighborhood in Cleveland that could benefit from a transformation such as this is E.105th street all the way down to superior and/or the East Blvd. neighborhood. It would connect a once dilapidated neighborhood to University Circle. Carry on though you lucky dogs. What have we completed in OTR is probably at 30% of what is still left to be done. OTR is a really large neighborhood (especially if you include the Mohawk district, and Pendelton into the mix). There's so much more of OTR still left to be renovated. But that's what excites me I guess. When it's all said and done and completed it will become an international travel destination. I can almost guarantee it. There's nothing left in the Midwest that has the size and scope of OTR. The weight that a fully revitalized OTR (and hopefully one day old west end as well) is absolutely huge. This neighborhood has the potential to put not just Cincinnati on the map for locals and Americans alike, but internationally as well. Neighborhoods like OTR are constantly disappearing in other cities in America. Look at St. Louis for instance as a prime example of this. Even Chicago is experiencing a huge influx of demolition. There's a huge expressed interest to knock away anything old, for something new. So the fact you still have a dense neighborhood that was built in the 19th century and still remains today is pretty huge. The reason why we visit Europe is to experience it's architecture. We want to visit it's old town, and be swarmed by that atmosphere of it's history. OTR is the equivalent of that IMO. It will be on the same "must see" cities like NYC/Boston/Charleston/San Fran/Philly/New Orleans that European travelers will travel to to experience "America". And to be, there's no better example of America and it's history of it's architecture than in OTR. I know I might be a gushing a bit to much, so I apoligize. But to me OTR has so much potential for the future of this city. A fully revitalized OTR with shops/bars/restaurants/housing/etc from south of liberty, to north of liberty, all the way to pendelton and mohawk just gives me the shivers quite honestly.
October 11, 20168 yr I know I might be a gushing a bit to much, so I apoligize. But to me OTR has so much potential for the future of this city. A fully revitalized OTR with shops/bars/restaurants/housing/etc from south of liberty, to north of liberty, all the way to pendelton and mohawk just gives me the shivers quite honestly. Don't apologize; OTR is a gem. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
October 11, 20168 yr Not actually in OTR, but I noticed this while checking out some of Google's recently updated Street View imagery. July 2014: https://goo.gl/maps/GGssSi4nBJs July 2016: https://goo.gl/maps/F7HWpBtZndT2 I'm hoping you have those dates reversed. :-(
October 11, 20168 yr Nope. They enclosed the public plaza and parked some generators in there. The lesser known closing lyric in Big Yellow Taxi after 'they paved paradise & put up a parking lot'. :-D
October 19, 20168 yr Cincinnati Refined published a gallery of some of my before-and-after photos from around OTR.
October 19, 20168 yr ^Those are really great. It'd be awesome if Streetsblog or some other national publication picked this up and ran it. OTR's turn around is among the most dramatic in the country, and I would love to see it receive a bit more national attention. The visuals alone are super compelling.
March 25, 20178 yr Progress on Model Group's Market Square development in the past year. March 2016 vs. March 2017:
March 27, 20178 yr That's fantastic. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
March 28, 20178 yr Is the yellow building with the billboard atop the roof slated to be rehabbed as well by the Model Group? Just seems strange that the entire block looks rehabbed, except the yellow building with it's windows still bricked in...unless they just haven't gotten to it yet.
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