My opinion has been get rid of it based on a variety of factors that I intuited.  Looking at that cle.com article from 2010 it's worse than I imagined.  $300k 2 years ago in upkeep and estimated $1 million to renovate?  That's an absurd amount of money. 

 

 

Saving the church and seeing it repurposed would be ideal but I don't think it has to be saved at all costs.  Of course seeing it demo'd to make way for some generic strip retail is the worst option, but that area is a hotbed for apartment living.  That corner could really be ideal for some upscale mixed use buildings, classic architecture on exterior, more modern finished apartments inside. 

 

I pass through this area every other day and it's interesting to note the Walgreens at 117th & Detroit has a 2-story look with fake upper level windows.  While certainly not ideal, it's a better option than the proposed rendering linked above.

Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but why do we not have more underground parking here? When I lived in LA, a lot of the grocery stores, strip malls, etc had underground parking garages. Hell, even my office building did - you had to call for your car and they brought it up on an elevator every day. This really minimized the amount of space needed by parking lots and parking structures. Why don't we do that here more? Is there some sort of zoning restriction against it?

Underground parking is the most expensive option.  If surface lots are $1/space, a structure is $5/space, underground parking is $10/space.

ah. Well, that sure does explain it.

Something else to bear in mind: only half the parcel lies within the historic district. So does putting surface parking along Clifton and then putting the retail strip along Lake and 116th give them a loophole?

Why in the world would you put street fronting retail on 116th, and leave Clifton / 117th bare? Ugh. What do these people think when drawing these up!

 

I think the anchor tenant will ultimately determine the layout and how many other retail places end up being carved out. Walk by this spot now,  it's not that spacious and parking is limited. A busy grocery store probably wouldn't allow for much more retail. Whatever goes here is going to set the tone for the neighborhood for the next decade. You put in a Heinen's and things are suddenly golden, get a Dollar General and the neighborhood isn't a sell anymore.

 

I haven't been to Heinen's in Rocky River in quite some time, but I don't remember the parking being much more than would be on site at 117th/Clifton, including leaving the church where it stands.  Part of the allure of a grocery chain there is many residents are within walking distance and wouldn't need a car.   

So the church is basically gutted? Does that make it easier to redevelop if you don't have to worry about the interior? Isn't a blank slate inside?

 

Just replying to one of the commenters on Cle.com, the Lakewood Christ the Scientist church is fully renovated to be a corporate headquarters for about a 50 person company. Unfortunately the previous owner conned someone out in Cali into buying the building as part of a lease-buyback arrangement before they went under and the realtor they hired isn't very proactive according to what I've heard. There are some pics on here somewhere. I would love to see something similar happen to this church. Everybody is bemoaning the $1M to rennovate the church, what is the project cost on a new building that size?

1 million seems like nothing to me for a structure like that.  I really would have expected it to be much more. 

 

Where is the closes library?  Would make a cool library (sort of like the main hall of the library of congress)

^ I was thinking the same thing.  The former First Church of Christ Scientist in Little Italy (now Nottingham Spirk) is probably a good comparison for what this space could be.  That was a $16 million renovation...

 

http://www.nottinghamspirk.com/index.php/vertical-innovation/the-innovation-center/

 

http://www.ferchillgroup.com/ns.shtml

1 million seems like nothing to me for a structure like that.  I really would have expected it to be much more. 

 

Where is the closes library?  Would make a cool library (sort of like the main hall of the library of congress)

 

It's probably a tie between Walz, at W. 80 and Detroit, or Eastman, at W. 117 and Lorain.  A library would be fantastic for the neighborhood, but I wonder if CPL would have the resources for it.

Considering the way some of the other libraries look, it doesn't seem like it. I went to the one in Ohio City at Fulton and I thought it would be gorgeous inside...little did I know!!

My opinion has been get rid of it based on a variety of factors that I intuited.  Looking at that cle.com article from 2010 it's worse than I imagined.  $300k 2 years ago in upkeep and estimated $1 million to renovate?  That's an absurd amount of money.

 

How is $1 million an absurd amount of money to renovate?? If you're wanting something for nothing, I guess it is..

^ 1 million is still absurd if looked at through the lens of "who has wanted to spend 1 million to renovate it thus far, or will do so now"?  It is also absurd considering that the other project in a similar structure cited above was 16 million for renovations.  Pick your poison as its absurd either way.

 

No one wants to spend anything on renovating this building for 20 years.  So where is that white knight with capital and a plan that makes renovating this site work?

 

The city is in no position to keep spending the money necessary to keep it standing.  $300k two years ago was just good money after bad.  I'm not thrilled about the plan as it currently sits but I can understand why Westbrook and the City have decided to be proactive about stopping the bleeding.

 

I guess the point of contention is that Westbrook and the City were not proactive in getting the church re purposed in the past.  That seems to be water under the bridge at this point.

 

 

The only way that old church on the corner is getting redeveloped is through use of historic tax credits.  It already has the historic designation so that's good, but there still must be some major stabilization/renovation required to get it to a useable state.

Because I am covering this for the newspaper, I can't take a public position whether the church should stay or go. But I can analyze the situation. Westbrook has called the bluff of the community (neighbors, preservationists, developers, investors, etc.) to do something with the church now. The church is rotting away and, unless someone steps forward with money to make it a neighborhood asset, the default situation of continued inaction is the church is or could soon be a drag on the neighborhood. By his his actions, he is telling the community to "put up or shut up" as there is a neighboring developer who wants to do something with that block.

 

But this is also a big risk. If no one speaks up soon -- with money to buy AND renovate the church -- I think the church will be gone soon.

 

EDIT: Elected officials love to see public debate over an issue because it gives them guidance on how an issue should be decided. George Voinovich used to say: If the public forms a parade, then I'll lead it. And Westbrook has certainly spurred public debate with his actions.

^ 1 million is still absurd if looked at through the lens of "who has wanted to spend 1 million to renovate it thus far, or will do so now"?  It is also absurd considering that the other project in a similar structure cited above was 16 million for renovations.  Pick your poison as its absurd either way.

 

No one wants to spend anything on renovating this building for 20 years.  So where is that white knight with capital and a plan that makes renovating this site work?

 

The city is in no position to keep spending the money necessary to keep it standing.  $300k two years ago was just good money after bad.  I'm not thrilled about the plan as it currently sits but I can understand why Westbrook and the City have decided to be proactive about stopping the bleeding.

 

I guess the point of contention is that Westbrook and the City were not proactive in getting the church re purposed in the past.  That seems to be water under the bridge at this point.

 

So if it only costed $3.99 to renovate the church, would that also be an absurd amount?

 

If you ask me, calling $1 million absurd is... absurd.

Church or no church, I hope the planning commission does the right thing and doesn't allow for a parking lot fronting 117th and Clifton.

 

To me it seems like another perfect spot for a 10-12 story senior tower, with ground-level retail.  With residents beyond their driving years it will ease up on the parking ;)

^Haha....where's the like button?

"So if it only costed $3.99 to renovate the church, would that also be an absurd amount?"

 

Yep.  Your catching on!

Cudell Improvement Inc. Exec Dir Anita Brinzda sent the following email earlier today to a general distribution audience....

______

 

Great news!

 

This morning the Landmarks Commission unanimously approved the demolition of the former Giant Eagle building!

 

The first thing that will happen is a fence will go up around the entire site, including the church but excluding the bank kiosk.  The demo is for the Giant Eagle building (including the former Johnny Malloys’s) and property only.  After the fencing is in place, the demo company will begin the demolition process as soon as a permit is issued by the City.  At a later date, Carnegie Companies plans to also demo the former Hairlines site that they have purchased.

 

As stated previously, there is no site plan yet to be reviewed and will not be until an anchor tenant is signed.

 

To learn the latest on the Cleveland Clifton Blvd. Transit Enhancement Plan go to EnhanceClifton.com.

 

Please forward this email to anyone who may be interested in the news. Call Councilman Westbrook or me with any questions.

 

Anita

Whats the reason for the hairlines acquisition and demolition?  I think it may be directly opposite where the W116th entrance and exit would be?

Whats the reason for the hairlines acquisition and demolition?  I think it may be directly opposite where the W116th entrance and exit would be?

 

It's got to be for parking? You could probably squeeze 25 parking spaces there if it includes the sideyard. That could make for a slightly larger development on the main parcel. It could act like an employee lot. That's just my guess.

 

Looking on historic aerials there have been several homes demolished over the years slowly creating an ever larger parcel at this corner. I hope the mature trees on clifton stay during demo. New saplings never look as nice.

 

I won't even take a stab when anything will go up here. We may have a rubble lot for a few years.

"I won't even take a stab when anything will go up here. We may have a rubble lot for a few years."

 

Or the demo could cause a lease to get signed...........

Whats the reason for the hairlines acquisition and demolition?  I think it may be directly opposite where the W116th entrance and exit would be?

 

The Hairlines property was owned by Riser Foods back when they had Stop-N-Shop there. Not sure why -- probably for parking in case they couldn't demolish the church. When Riser Foods sold the grocery store property to Giant Eagle, I suspect the Hairlines property went with it. And the same thing probably happened when Giant Eagle sold to Carnegie Companies.

Wouldn't a well-placed, well-designed parking garage be a good investment for the entire district?  I think so. Coventry should be the template for this neighborhood, not Rocky River.  It's sad that sprawling surface lots are still viewed as necessary component for growth.

The city's masterplan for the West 117th Corridor has a parking deck there, but its just a plan. I don't believe it's tied to zoning (except for vague classifications such as "general business") so it doesn't carry the force of law.

The city's masterplan for the West 117th Corridor has a parking deck there, but its just a plan. I don't believe it's tied to zoning (except for vague classifications such as "general business") so it doesn't carry the force of law.

 

Damn. Well, it's good to know that there was at least some official vision for what should be.

Yes vision is good--let's hope reality follows suit.  It's hard to fathom that some of the largest population density between New York and Chicago is within walking distance of this intersection and yet we sit here biting our nails worried about a Walgreens or strip mall.

 

This is one instance when I feel we should "build it and they will come."    If they build something noteworthy here it will be well-patronized.  A grocery with mixed use development above would be best.  A starbucks would be off the charts (the current location is tough to get in and out of and always crowded).

 

I wonder if this wouldn't be easier to achieve if the intersection lied in the same city as the population density?  If the Gold Coast were in Cleveland, or the intersection was in Lakewood-proper?

If something like this were to be built, I would not really miss the church:

 

Tampa:

 

http://www.rrsimmons.com/images/Publix_Greenwise.pdf

 

http://www.fpcaweb.org/publixgreenwisehydeparkgaragetampafl.html

 

Miami Beach:

 

http://swamplot.com/is-this-your-montrose-supermarket-on-stilts-a-south-beach-model-for-the-wilshire-village-h-e-b/2010-08-02/

I may be asking for a little much (and I can't believe I'm tipping my hat to Dallas), but I'm a fan of the Uptown/West Village area there.    One of these buildings would be perfect for the W117/th/Clifton Lot, and could easily incorporate the design of the church behind it.

 

http://www.westvil.com/residences.html

Fencing is up around the Malloys/Giant Eagle property and some demo equipment parked out back.

And the fencing is around the church too, which, when Cudell's Anita Brindza shared that bit info, it surprised me. Not sure why they're including the church in the fencing since it's not going to be demolished and the developer doesn't own it.

 

Everybody at the CVS across the street from the church was talking about it today. So I referred them to my article in yesterday's Sun Paper. An old version of that story was posted online last week. The new version that was in yesterday's paper is not online yet.

Maybe they will "accidentally" demolish the church too.

Heavy machinery at demo site today.

Heavy machinery at demo site today.

 

They probably got their demolition permit approved by the city yesterday.

Maybe they will "accidentally" demolish the church too.

 

It happens.  Heavy vibrations from nearby demo can easily weaken a structure beyond the point of repair if it's already in a state of neglect...

Demolition of the retail strip along Clifton got underway today. They should be done by the end of the day tomorrow or Thursday (Dec. 20).

 

Also, the Enhance Clifton project on the Cleveland side was approved by the city on Dec. 13 and renderings are posted at:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,4446.msg655313.html#msg655313

^ saw that today.  Man they are making some headway!  I wonder at what point Heinens says something/anything.  Even if its just confirming they have interst

Anyone know how well the temple stood up? It's looks alright

It looked fine when I passed it today.

The church is fine. The ground was barely even vibrating from the demolition work, when I was standing there on Wednesday. The ground shakes more when a truck or bus goes by.

 

So here's a photo shot by passerby Marc Frisch, looking south on West 117th on Tuesday (12-18)....

 

 

 

And here's a photo I shot on on Wednesday (12-19)....

 

Driving by this now, with only a partial demolition, shows how critical that the new building(s) be placed along Clifton and especially at the corner with 117th. A suburban style strip would look especially horrid here.

Driving by this now, with only a partial demolition, shows how critical that the new building(s) be placed along Clifton and especially at the corner with 117th. A suburban style strip would look especially horrid here.

 

We all better start writing our elected officials then.  I fear the worst!

There's only one elected official you need to contact. Jay.

Received a FB update from whoever runs social media for Papa Nick's Pizza (yes, I "liked" Papa Nicks on FB)

 

Anyway, they claimed certainty that the church was coming down as part of this demolition and that such was openly stated at a recent "stakeholder's meeting".    Going to drive by this morning and take a look.

Received a FB update from whoever runs social media for Papa Nick's Pizza (yes, I "liked" Papa Nicks on FB)

 

Anyway, they claimed certainty that the church was coming down as part of this demolition and that such was openly stated at a recent "stakeholder's meeting".    Going to drive by this morning and take a look.

 

That would be legally impossible. There is a multi-step process to demolishing the church and there hasn't even been step one, which is:

 

1. The sale of the land by the city to Carnegie Companies.

 

2. Then comes the securing of an anchor tenant for The Shoppes On Clifton.

 

3. Then there's the removal of the church's landmark status.

 

4. Then comes a demolition request.

 

5. Then comes approval of a demolition permit.

 

The only reason why the property owner, Carnegie, is demolishing the retail strip is because it was in danger of collapse due to decaying foundation supports in the basement. It is true that Carnegie can market the land better if it had cleared the retail strip. But that was not the driver for demolishing anything now. If it were, all of the pre-demolition steps (above) for the church would have been taken. They haven't. And it will take months before all of those can occur.

 

So whoever said the church was being demolished needs to take one of these:

^ Or maybe they saw the same site layout that we did showing the church gone and jumped to that conclusion....

I just drove by a few minutes ago and the church is standing tall!  In fact, if you have a chance run by it and note how nice it looks now that Malloys and Giant Eagle are out of the way.  Before I was neutral on saving it so long as something worthwhile replaced it.  Now I think it may be worth saving.

I also get all my important news from the pizza guy :wink: