This was the general Lakewood thread, but many of the developments were occurring along West 117th, so the name of the thread was changed. The solution is to probably pull out the West 117th developments and create a separate thread from all other Lakewood developments. But, gee, that takes a lot of work and none of us mods get paid. Perhaps when I have some free time I will do this.

 

To your question about the Drug Mart plaza, this is what's happening there:

 

Lakewood Plaza is set for major facelift

Published: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 1:24 PM    Updated: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 1:29 PM

  By Cody Peck, Sun News

 

LAKEWOOD Lakewood Plaza is finally going to get its multimillion dollar facelift.

 

Property owner Levey and Company of Akron will unveil the new design concept during a ceremony at 1 p.m. on Nov. 1 at the plaza, 15412 Detroit Ave.

 

“Our plans are to take this ’70s style shopping center and give it a new vision for destination shopping in Lakewood for the future,” said Lawrence Levey, founder and principal of Levey and Company.

 

Drug Mart will continue as an anchor of the more than 47,000-square-foot center. Dots and Radio Shack will also continue to occupy storefronts. Quaker Steak and Lube will be a new addition.

 

READ MORE AT:

http://www.cleveland.com/sunpostherald/index.ssf/2011/10/lakewood_plaza_is_set_for_majo.html

Posted on Cleveland.com today:

 

CLEVELAND Demolition of an active sports bar and a closed grocery store could help spur redevelopment of a visible block in a heavily populated area at the border of Lakewood.

 

With funding from Cleveland’s Economic Development Department, Cudell Improvement Inc. sought bids from consultants to conduct an environmental assessment of demolishing the commercial strip along Clifton Boulevard between West 116th and 117th streets.

 

The building houses the combined Geppetto’s and Johnny Malloy’s sports bar, which is on a month-to-month lease. But most of the rest of the building has been vacant since Giant Eagle moved its grocery store next to Interstate 90 in 2008.

 

Full article: 

 

http://www.cleveland.com/sunpostherald/index.ssf/2011/11/cudell_improvement_doing_study.html

Financial markets remain tight today, so reducing the cost of redeveloping the site by providing a clean property that is ready for construction would likely increase interest by new site users, Brindza said.

 

What the hell, they're treating this property like a superfund site?!!?!

 

The existing buildings look fine. What are the chances that new construction will fit the existing character of the street?

 

I'm not optimistic about this at all.

 

 

 

^couldn't disagree more, surfohio. 

 

That existing building is a piece of crap and has nothing architecturally significant about it.  Look closely and the masonry & windows are falling apart.  The building on the north side of 116th which houses "Big Fun" & "TickTock" is pretty cool but the 6+ lanes of Clifton and 4+ lanes of 117th beg for more height on this corner.  Something 4+ floors would be fantastic there.  Anything at least that tall or more would likely have views of the lake & downtown skyline.  I'd love to see a more modern mixed use office/apartment building with some type of first floor retail or sports bar.  Probably a pipe dream though. 

 

I'd like to see that entire corner built out, put a parking structure on the back side, then eventually do the same thing on the south side of Clifton in the same block, 117 to 116.  There is that existing surface lot which is never used and most of those little shops, Clifton Diner (which I love), Twist, and the old Charter One bank are all pretty run down.

^ Gottaplan if YOU were the developer I'd be excited.

 

Architecturally, I think the peaked roof at the former Giant Eagle is very unique and worth preserving. I would bet anyone on this board (limit 3 people) one local draft beer that any new construction will have lesser street/sidewalk presence than the current setup. Sad truth, it would be better for that place to remain a vacant lot/surface parking vs. throwing up what could be an Arby's or a Speedway.

 

Also, any ltruly arge development there that crowds in the crowds in the church too much will hurt it's chances imho.

^ Gottaplan if YOU were the developer I'd be excited.

 

Architecturally, I think the peaked roof at the former Giant Eagle is very unique and worth preserving. I would bet anyone on this board (limit 3 people) one local draft beer that any new construction will have lesser street/sidewalk presence than the current setup. Sad truth, it would be better for that place to remain a vacant lot/surface parking vs. throwing up what could be an Arby's or a Speedway.

 

Also, any ltruly arge development there that crowds in the crowds in the church too much will hurt it's chances imho.

 

Yeah. Tearing that down scares me a bit. How many years will we have an empty gravel lot there? Look at Cedar Center north in South Euclid. An older plaza was torn down 4 years ago, grand plans for mixed use were put into place, after each design iteration the plan got worse until desperate for anything a GFS pops up with a sea of parking and next on the plate is a Bob Evans. I'd really hate for these buildings to come down, some developer with bright eyes for ground level retail/upper office/apartments comes in, realizes that the ROI just isn't there and voila a Sheetz, Autozone, Denny's or some other crap finds its way in.

 

The JD Byrider just a block south of this location was cleared earlier in the summer leaving a blank parcel. I think I might be more concerned for some sort of crap with a sea of parking to appear here first then up a block. However, I'd truly hate to see two box stores with a sea of parking appear in both of these spots, which would essentially kill this neighborhood. That old JD Byrider spot really needs to be built with something up to the street level to connect the area around Brother's Lounge on Detroit with Clifton.

 

The location of Clifton and W 117th is great. I'm just not sure what would be best put in there. I think it could sustain a couple new restaurants/bars, but I don't know how well more retail would do.

Depending on the tenant, retail could do extremely well.  And the building is not without architectural merit.  Compared to what gets built nowadays it's a palace.  I love gottaplan's idea... but I share surfohio's fears that whatever ends up there will be suburban in character.  Pretty sure Cleveland's outrageously stupid zoning code demands it, and even if it didn't, I don't trust (most) local developers/architects to do it right.  Look at that new CSU project... even the planning commission called it too suburban, and that's right downtown. 

 

Unless Ari Maron himself has a specific plan for the site, I think demolition would be unconscionable.  It's not even abandoned!  That bar gets packed on weekends and does good food business during the week.  Closing it-- FOR A VACANT LOT-- would really hurt the neighborhood.  It's not like we have 3 or 4 of those, we only have one.  If it's so much more marketable as empty land, why not have a deal in place before ripping it down.  If that's not in the cards right now... don't rip it down!

Posted on Cleveland.com today:

 

CLEVELAND Demolition of an active sports bar and a closed grocery store could help spur redevelopment of a visible block in a heavily populated area at the border of Lakewood.

 

With funding from Cleveland’s Economic Development Department, Cudell Improvement Inc. sought bids from consultants to conduct an environmental assessment of demolishing the commercial strip along Clifton Boulevard between West 116th and 117th streets.

 

The building houses the combined Geppetto’s and Johnny Malloy’s sports bar, which is on a month-to-month lease. But most of the rest of the building has been vacant since Giant Eagle moved its grocery store next to Interstate 90 in 2008.

 

Full article: 

 

http://www.cleveland.com/sunpostherald/index.ssf/2011/11/cudell_improvement_doing_study.html

 

Wonder who the reporter is?? ;)

^ Oh man, how did I miss that....I'm calling that hack's editor first thing lol.

Hack is right. I'm just a freelancer these days!

I missed that too!  Hopefully you stay on that story!  Please don't report to us the construction of a new Walgreens... ;)

I missed that too!  Hopefully you stay on that story!  Please don't report to us the construction of a new Walgreens... ;)

 

Not when there's a Walgreen's less than a half-mile south at West 117th and Detroit (yes, I know -- you're joking). But there was an idea several years ago of Giant Eagle putting a new Market District store at that location with a Get Go station across the street where the Citgo station is now. That idea died when the economy went kaput in 2008.

 

But Citgo since renovated their station by adding a convenience store, so I doubt a Get Go will happen there. I hope it does NOT happen where the old Giant Eagle was! The existing Get Go gas station at West 117th and I-90 is one of the busiest gas station I've seen in my life, so there may be interest in adding another somewhere in this general area.

Always thought this would be a great location for a Trader Joe's

Always thought this would be a great location for a Trader Joe's

 

Exactly, or even something like a Constantino's.  The neighborhood hasnt been the same with the lack of activity since the G. Eagle closed.

There's a Constantino's just a few blocks away. This area doesn't need more grocery. You've got two Giant Eagle's a mile away in either direction and Sapell's a block south. While Trader Joe's offers a niche brand, I don't think the volume is there in that particular spot to sustain their model. I think that Constantino's moving a few blocks down and expanding would be a better neighborhood fit. I'd also like to see more restaurants with patios, the wine bar down the street can't meet the demand.

That area has a ton of potential.  I lived two blocks from both Constantino's and Geppetto's and walked everywhere when I lived there.  The amount of people within walking distance could support a lot of things...even without a huge parking lot.

I'd actually like to see a replacement for Johnny Malloys.  The current place is a dump with questionable food, but it is nice to have a neighborhood watering hole with eats on that corner.  Would love a developer to do a mixed-use space and include a great location for a local restarateur to recreate that local hang with better food and service!

There's a Constantino's just a few blocks away. This area doesn't need more grocery. You've got two Giant Eagle's a mile away in either direction and Sapell's a block south. While Trader Joe's offers a niche brand, I don't think the volume is there in that particular spot to sustain their model. I think that Constantino's moving a few blocks down and expanding would be a better neighborhood fit. I'd also like to see more restaurants with patios, the wine bar down the street can't meet the demand.

 

Sapell's is a glorified liquor store.  I think an expanded Constantino's would suit the needs of the neighborhood well, though.  The space they're currently in could go back to being a Convenient or whatever it was a long time ago, which would be more appropriate for a building of that size.

There's a Constantino's just a few blocks away. This area doesn't need more grocery. You've got two Giant Eagle's a mile away in either direction and Sapell's a block south. While Trader Joe's offers a niche brand, I don't think the volume is there in that particular spot to sustain their model. I think that Constantino's moving a few blocks down and expanding would be a better neighborhood fit. I'd also like to see more restaurants with patios, the wine bar down the street can't meet the demand.

 

Sapell's is a glorified liquor store.  I think an expanded Constantino's would suit the needs of the neighborhood well, though.  The space they're currently in could go back to being a Convenient or whatever it was a long time ago, which would be more appropriate for a building of that size.

 

Exactly Sapell's is crappy and with the people in walking distance (including lots of elderly) I dont think its a bad idea to have an expanded Constantino's.  I have a hard time of not thinking of the current Contstantino's there as a 7-11 as it is. 

 

Doesnt anybody remeber that they did have some pretty good mixed use plans for the site, with living above retail and with plans of townhouses facing Lake. 

 

This is what they are marketing now... Not good.

 

 

I wish we could take Cudell Improvement out of it.  They mean well, but are so backwards in their thinking it's not even funny.  Let them focus on their 15 craft vendors that constitute the Clifton Arts & Music (?) fest, and leave the development to someone thinking in the 21st century.

I wish we could take Cudell Improvement out of it.  They mean well, but are so backwards in their thinking it's not even funny.  Let them focus on their 15 craft vendors that constitute the Clifton Arts & Music (?) fest, and leave the development to someone thinking in the 21st century.

 

Arts & Techno fest...

 

I don't believe planning should revolve around CDC's to the extent that it currently does.  It's analogous to having 60+ municipalities each fighting for their own piece of the county pie, making it tough to focus on the good of the whole. 

That old church, as beautiful as it is, is what is keeping this site vacant ... for better or for worse. If that church wasn't there or had been demo'ed decades ago, you can guarantee that entire block would have been redeveloped by now (most likely with garbage). That church is crumbling, and if I recall correctly the city just dumped $300,000 into stabilizing the roof this past winter. Any plan really has to incorporate this building into the project or else the city over the years will have blown a lot of money for nothing. It's a pretty building, but an awkward space to fill.

 

Let's say that the ideal mixed use 4 story building gets proposed for this site? What do you do with that church? I know that a bookstore had been tossed around before, but let's face it, big book stores are a thing of the past. It would probably make a great Cleveland Public Library branch, but fat chance in that ever happening. I would imagine that a renovation of the church is going to be in the millions, so as a single property it's just not going to survive being redeveloped on its own. In addition, any multi story development on this site would likely cause the need for a parking garage, escalating costs dramatically.

 

The Rockport Square development about 5 blocks southwest of this site in Lakewood has stalled for quite some time too. I could see something similar to that being put in here, but I'm not sure about the demand for housing in this neighborhood. The housing stock in this area is 90% pre 1930 with a scattering of late 50's and 60's ranches that were carved from some of the original lakeside estates. You can probably count on one hand all the properties built after 1980. This all in a neighborhood of Cleveland that never really declined. I think a more modern build townhome would be desired by some, but might be a hard sell though. Especially considering what amazing homes with great features and architecture are selling for on Lake and Edgewater Drives these days.

 

It's just a very interesting corner in Cleveland where a lot of things could potentially happen, but it all rests on that church and how it fits into any proposal.

 

 

You're probably right about that old church being a dead weight on the site...  I see those townhomes along 117th just north of the CVS and think something similar could work across the street as well.  The younger people who chose to live in the area are looking for more modern rental options than what currently exists

You both apparently missed my post that five developers submitted proposals to redevelop the church but couldn't because the grocery store was preventing it. When the grocery store left in 2008, we started having a bit of a problem with the credit markets and that's what killed the development -- not the church.

didn't miss your point.  Just didn't agree with it.  2008 was a long time ago.  Pretty much any conceivable development plan - another low rise strip type, condo town houses, mixed use multi-level, would want that church gone, to develop the entire section of 117th toward Lake Ave. 

Why's that gottaplan?

didn't miss your point.  Just didn't agree with it.  2008 was a long time ago.  Pretty much any conceivable development plan - another low rise strip type, condo town houses, mixed use multi-level, would want that church gone, to develop the entire section of 117th toward Lake Ave. 

 

It's not my point. It was news I reported. You may disagree with my reporting of the facts which are as solid as me saying the sun rose today, but that doesn't change the facts.

 

And if it becomes a reported fact that a strip center is what is planned and that the site owner/developer says it cannot move forward unless the church is torn down, then it is clear that this site will remain dormant/vacated until another plan is put forward which respects the church. The city owns the church and has a significant investment in it. From conversations I have had with city officials, the church is as immutable as the streets which form that block. Everything I hear from the city is that the church is so important to them that, whatever development plan is put forth to meet will have to work within those parameters. Unless you hear news that is different, there is nothing to disagree with.

I think gottaplan and Westblvd might be saying that any development including the church was likely more feasable several years ago when it was more likely a large bookstore could have taken the space.  Today that possibility is much less likely since the landscape is much different.  So they would have to be pretty creative in their thinking...  Although I love the library idea. 

 

Maybe Steve Schimoler would like to open another restaurant, Crop2 anyone..?

You both apparently missed my post that five developers submitted proposals to redevelop the church but couldn't because the grocery store was preventing it. When the grocery store left in 2008, we started having a bit of a problem with the credit markets and that's what killed the development -- not the church.

didn't miss your point.  Just didn't agree with it.  2008 was a long time ago.  Pretty much any conceivable development plan - another low rise strip type, condo town houses, mixed use multi-level, would want that church gone, to develop the entire section of 117th toward Lake Ave. 

 

It's not my point. It was news I reported. You may disagree with my reporting of the facts which are as solid as me saying the sun rose today, but that doesn't change the facts.

 

And if it becomes a reported fact that a strip center is what is planned and that the site owner/developer says it cannot move forward unless the church is torn down, then it is clear that this site will remain dormant/vacated until another plan is put forward which respects the church. The city owns the church and has a significant investment in it. From conversations I have had with city officials, the church is as immutable as the streets which form that block. Everything I hear from the city is that the church is so important to them that, whatever development plan is put forth to meet will have to work within those parameters. Unless you hear news that is different, there is nothing to disagree with.

 

I agree, 2008 and earlier was an entirely different development realm. Even well before then, there were proposals to tear the church down for more grocery store parking. But today the church is a big piece in the development puzzle for that corner. Each year that the church stays empty, the more it crumbles and the more cash the city has to put into just to keep it from falling down. So each year, the cost to rehab that structure goes up, and with today's housing values, credit crunch, etc what one can do with that church profitably is entirely different than 4 years ago. But, I agree with the city, the church is a landmark, a wonderful architectural specimen and must stay.

 

You've got a lot of scenarios that can play out. Basically, any redevelopment of that church NEEDS to have some of the neighboring parcel where the Giant Eagle/ Johnny Malloy's stand, as evidenced by earlier proposals. On the other hand any redevelopment of the commercial strip on Clifton does not necessarily need the Church. If a developer comes in and wants to buy the commercial strip on Clifton to put in something new there, then the church on its parcel is SOL until the market conditions drastically improve. This is what I'm afraid of, someone coming in and seeing that corner and having no problem putting in their 15,000 square foot store with a sea of parking and leaving the church to rot some more.

 

We can play the scenario/speculation game all we want at this stage of the game. But in this market what can feasibly go in there is very limited. I think a Crop2 restaurant would be amazing. But really, what kind of restaurant in Cleveland could realistically operate in a building that will take millions to renovate. There is going to have to be a lot of clever financing, historic tax credits, etc to really get anything off the ground.

 

 

I think gottaplan and Westblvd might be saying that any development including the church was likely more feasable several years ago when it was more likely a large bookstore could have taken the space.  Today that possibility is much less likely since the landscape is much different.  So they would have to be pretty creative in their thinking...  Although I love the library idea. 

 

Maybe Steve Schimoler would like to open another restaurant, Crop2 anyone..?

 

Yeah, so many great projects in Cleveland unfortunately stuttered because of the recession. Who knows, let's say that it had gone through and a Borders popped up there ;) We'd still be discussing what to put in there today, but at least the building would be habitable.

We'll see what happens next. I hope to be able to report on some new development sooner rather than later.

I love when I can add to a discussion, found this on loopnet

 

http://www.loopnet.com/xNet/MainSite/Listing/Profile/Profile.aspx?LID=17000630&SRID=2181053109&StepID=101&LinkCode=20280

Thanks. That's going to go in the paper next week.

I love when I can add to a discussion, found this on loopnet

 

http://www.loopnet.com/xNet/MainSite/Listing/Profile/Profile.aspx?LID=17000630&SRID=2181053109&StepID=101&LinkCode=20280

 

Yeah I posted on the previous page...

BTW, this is the company doing the architectural/real estate services for property owner Carnegie Companies:

http://faboenterprises.com/

 

Their client list also includes Cudell Improvement (the CDC for this area) as well as Twist Social Club which on the opposite side of Clifton from this property.

BTW, this is the company doing the architectural/real estate services for property owner Carnegie Companies:

http://faboenterprises.com/

 

Their client list also includes Cudell Improvement (the CDC for this area) as well as Twist Social Club which on the opposite side of Clifton from this property.

 

Thanks for posting KJP.

 

Most interesting...the gallery they did looks nice. The rooftop on Twist looks okay, but the smoking area in the back is awful, though I'm not sure they're responsible for that. The Bang and Clatter theatre facade is absolutely terrible, however, and now we know who to blame for that.

 

Anyhow, is anyone buoyed with confidence over the involvement of this company?

 

Gottaplan does the awesome rendition still justify the demo of the current buildings?

I love when I can add to a discussion, found this on loopnet

 

http://www.loopnet.com/xNet/MainSite/Listing/Profile/Profile.aspx?LID=17000630&SRID=2181053109&StepID=101&LinkCode=20280

 

It isn't the image that is really noteworthy on the page, but that they have a 25,000 sf anchor tenant already with a LOI or signed lease

I love when I can add to a discussion, found this on loopnet

 

http://www.loopnet.com/xNet/MainSite/Listing/Profile/Profile.aspx?LID=17000630&SRID=2181053109&StepID=101&LinkCode=20280

 

 

Yeah I posted on the previous page...

 

I'll echo my concerns again. This proposal is exactly what we don't want for the corner. If this goes through how do you redevelop the church? I'd much rather this corner sit vacant for another 3-4 years until market conditions support the right development here than put in another one story strip plaza.

Exactly. There is a separate listing for that property/project calling it "Shoppes on Clifton" with links to site plans and a marketing brochure....

 

http://www.loopnet.com/xNet/MainSite/Listing/Profile/Profile.aspx?LID=17190376&SRID=2181344281&StepID=101

 

Here is one of the two site plans, but the only one shown against an aerial backdrop. The other version shows West 116th being turned into a one-way street, northbound only. This version does not:

 

 

EDIT! Tthe above site plan is somewhat deceptive because it does not show a loading dock for the 25,000 square foot building. That loading dock is included in both versions of the detailed site plans, albeit in slightly different locations at the back of the store. The 25,000 square foot building also would have a drive-through lane in both versions. That tells me this is either a boutique grocery store or a drug store. There is also on-street parking added to Clifton in front of this development. One version has parallel parking spaces; the other has angled-in parking which, to me, isn't going to work on a busy street with fast moving traffic like Clifton. And I don't think this is taking into account the bus-only lanes during rush hours which I believe Cleveland has committed to but Lakewood apparently has not.

 

Here are the two site plan details.....

 

http://www.loopnet.com/Attachments/C/2/D/C2D59D39-22EF-4A55-A226-A559D42647D5.pdf

http://www.loopnet.com/Attachments/1/C/0/1C083FDA-2B22-41E4-B591-E318ABE72150.pdf

please note: eisenberg is the developer whose new development on the corner of Som Center and Chagrin Blvd sat 100% vacant for almost 2 years

please note: eisenberg is the developer whose new development on the corner of Som Center and Chagrin Blvd sat 100% vacant for almost 2 years

 

Eisenberg? Who are they and how did they get into this conversation? I missed something....

Wow, look at how boxed in the church gets! I'd like to hear the city's reaction to these designs. There has to be a way they can piggyback off this. Otherwise, what do you do with it?

please note: eisenberg is the developer whose new development on the corner of Som Center and Chagrin Blvd sat 100% vacant for almost 2 years

 

Eisenberg? Who are they and how did they get into this conversation? I missed something....

 

They are the developer/owner of the block

 

http://www.arnoldjeisenberg.com/properties_pdfs/11604%20-%2011636%20Clifton%20Blvd.pdf

 

They are the developer/owner of the block

 

http://www.arnoldjeisenberg.com/properties_pdfs/11604%20-%2011636%20Clifton%20Blvd.pdf

 

They are a retail brokerage. The owner of the block (except for the church) is Carnegie Companies.

The drive through really lends itself towards a drug store type place. But you've got CVS literally across the street, Walgreens a block south, and then Discount Drug Mart a block south and a block west on Detroit. Would Discount Drug Mart want to move to this location for better traffic and visibility? Otherwise I just can't see this area needing another one of these type of stores.

 

A GFS just opened up in the new Cedar Center North plaza in South Euclid as an anchor tenant. Their average store square footage is 16,000 sq ft, which is the same size as the anchor tenant for this proposal. Save A Lot is also about this size. Luckily this size is too big for a Family Dollar or Dollar General. The demographics of this neighborhood, with such a split between affluence and low income and everything in between, lends to almost anything going in here. I could just as easily see a GFS here as I could a relocated Nature's Bin or expanded Constantino's.

 

The fate of that church rests on this proposal. You're not going to get 4 condos carved out of it, especially when it's sitting in the back parking lot of a shopping plaza and facing the proposed garbage containers. Any restaurant/bar/entertainment venue in the church would rest on the plaza owner allowing for shared parking between the two, and even then it'd probably always be full. This proposal adds zero additional parking spaces than when it was a Giant Eagle several years ago, in fact it looks like there are about 8 less spaces in the proposal than currently exist now. How full did the parking lot get when Giant Eagle was here in 2007?

How full did the parking lot get when Giant Eagle was here in 2007?

 

I shopped at this Big Bird very often, and the parking lot was almost never more than half full. I remember it was probably 3/4 full around the holidays and being shocked at having to park so "far" from the store.

 

It appears they lose about nine spaces with Building A being larger than the current building that Johnny Malloy's is in, but it also appears they pick up 6-7 parallel or angled parking spaces on Clifton. So the net loss is maybe two spaces.

How full did the parking lot get when Giant Eagle was here in 2007?

 

I shopped at this Big Bird very often, and the parking lot was almost never more than half full. I remember it was probably 3/4 full around the holidays and being shocked at having to park so "far" from the store.

 

It appears they lose about nine spaces with Building A being larger than the current building that Johnny Malloy's is in, but it also appears they pick up 6-7 parallel or angled parking spaces on Clifton. So the net loss is maybe two spaces.

 

Hopefully then there's still hope for the church.

 

On another note, this is still in the Clifton-West Blvd historic district. There's no way (never say never) that they'd get away with that proposed design.

 

If we are going to get a one story strip plaza, I'd really like to see a faux 2 story brick facade that complements the buildings to the east of 116th Street. Or better yet, salvage a facade from a building being demo'ed elsewhere in the city, because there sure are enough historic buildings biting the dust as of late!

Every time I open that front view picture, I expect it to keep loading and get taller.  It never does.

Every time I open that front view picture, I expect it to keep loading and get taller.  It never does.

 

I keep waiting for the bottom of the picture to finally load!

That's what I mean.  The whole thing looks like a roof.