May 1, 201213 yr The United Airlines "you have to fly us regularly if you want to keep your hub" pressure on us Cleveland is high right now - and the fares are showing it... CLE is #11 on this list. Our NYC fares are easily in that $450-$500 range a month or so out - and I recently check BOS flight 6-8 weeks out and the cheapeast non-stop was $1050 on any airline. I could go right down the road to Akron/Canton and it was $175 nonstop... If I wanted to drive a bit longer to PIT, it was $150. Airlines are crazy... We always felt for CVG due to Delta stronghold - but now we're feeling the $ pain exactly like CVG Folks hub fares will always be higher. In addition, you need to look at when you're buying a ticket and to what market. NYC [LGA & EWR]-CLE is one of CLE's top routes, so of course the price is going to be high on this business route.
May 1, 201213 yr >At least then we had great flight options. Not only were there flights to obscure places, but there were 10+ non-stops daily to many cities. I remember ten years ago there 3 every night between 7pm and 8pm from Logan to CVG. When you were in a Delta terminal anywhere, it made Cincinnati appear to be some gigantic place. I think there are only 3 non-stops now to LAX, I don't know how many to NYC. It's $450 or $550 to LAX right now depending on which day and which flight.
May 2, 201213 yr The United Airlines "you have to fly us regularly if you want to keep your hub" pressure on us Cleveland is high right now - and the fares are showing it... CLE is #11 on this list. Our NYC fares are easily in that $450-$500 range a month or so out - and I recently check BOS flight 6-8 weeks out and the cheapeast non-stop was $1050 on any airline. I could go right down the road to Akron/Canton and it was $175 nonstop... If I wanted to drive a bit longer to PIT, it was $150. Airlines are crazy... We always felt for CVG due to Delta stronghold - but now we're feeling the $ pain exactly like CVG Folks hub fares will always be higher. In addition, you need to look at when you're buying a ticket and to what market. NYC [LGA & EWR]-CLE is one of CLE's top routes, so of course the price is going to be high on this business route. More importantly is what day you are trying to fly. If you are flying commuter time (Mon-Wed/Thur) airlines are going to charge significantly more as they know that the corporate office is going to pick up the tab in most cases. There is a larger disconnect between Price and Timing. Whereas if you look on weekend travel times the prices are significantly lower. It's amazing how much the prices change.
May 2, 201213 yr The United Airlines "you have to fly us regularly if you want to keep your hub" pressure on us Cleveland is high right now - and the fares are showing it... CLE is #11 on this list. Our NYC fares are easily in that $450-$500 range a month or so out - and I recently check BOS flight 6-8 weeks out and the cheapeast non-stop was $1050 on any airline. I could go right down the road to Akron/Canton and it was $175 nonstop... If I wanted to drive a bit longer to PIT, it was $150. Airlines are crazy... We always felt for CVG due to Delta stronghold - but now we're feeling the $ pain exactly like CVG Really though. there are dozens and dozens of hubs MUCH MUCH MUCH cheaper than CVG. So the hub thing is Folks hub fares will always be higher. In addition, you need to look at when you're buying a ticket and to what market. NYC [LGA & EWR]-CLE is one of CLE's top routes, so of course the price is going to be high on this business route. Really though. There are dozens and dozens of hubs MUCH MUCH MUCH cheaper than CVG. So the hub thing is just an excuse. If it's landing fee's causing it. Something should be done about it. Should have a decade ago.
May 2, 201213 yr The United Airlines "you have to fly us regularly if you want to keep your hub" pressure on us Cleveland is high right now - and the fares are showing it... CLE is #11 on this list. Our NYC fares are easily in that $450-$500 range a month or so out - and I recently check BOS flight 6-8 weeks out and the cheapeast non-stop was $1050 on any airline. I could go right down the road to Akron/Canton and it was $175 nonstop... If I wanted to drive a bit longer to PIT, it was $150. Airlines are crazy... We always felt for CVG due to Delta stronghold - but now we're feeling the $ pain exactly like CVG Really though. there are dozens and dozens of hubs MUCH MUCH MUCH cheaper than CVG. So the hub thing is Folks hub fares will always be higher. In addition, you need to look at when you're buying a ticket and to what market. NYC [LGA & EWR]-CLE is one of CLE's top routes, so of course the price is going to be high on this business route. Really though. There are dozens and dozens of hubs MUCH MUCH MUCH cheaper than CVG. So the hub thing is just an excuse. If it's landing fee's causing it. Something should be done about it. Should have a decade ago. You need to look at hubs market by market. Look at Dallas, I bet a fare from a nearby airport, will be cheaper than from DFW. even cheaper with a LCC.
May 7, 201213 yr Well, DFW is kind of a bad example, since Southwest is based out of Love Field, the other airport in Dallas. I'm guessing that those fares are cheaper than DFW.
May 20, 201213 yr Well, Concourse A is now open. Both trains are operational and both stop at the Terminal, Concourse A, and Concourse B. There seemed to be a few minor problems like a long wait for the bus to the "ValuPark" parking lot. You'd think it would be less of a wait since they only have to stop at one terminal instead of two... so we'll see if that improves. I haven't flown out of CVG since the change, so I can't say if it takes any longer to get through security, now that everyone's funneled through one checkpoint.
May 22, 201213 yr Delta's nonstop service CVG-PHX will bite the dust the Tuesday after Labor Day. This may (may as in "I don't know") only be a seasonal move, but that's a significant market to lose. Don't look for a Delta newsrelease on this one like their absurd one a few months ago promoting additional service to DTW and ATL. US Airways currently serves both IND-PHX and CMH-PHX non-stop, while Southwest serves SDF-PHX non-stop ......... we'll see if US Airways adds the market (I doubt it). Looks like Columbus and Louisville will have non-stop service to PHX, while Cincinnati will not.
May 22, 201213 yr Any news on the murals in Terminals 1 and 2? Terminal 1 has three in the lobby, I'm not sure what's in Terminal 2.
May 22, 201213 yr Disappointing news: DL officially loaded the PHX cancellation today. This is a very large market to loose and has both business and leisure implications for the tri-state. Seeing as how PHX functions as both a popular business and leisure destination and has year-round draw, I doubt this one is a seasonal cancellation. It also makes you wonder what's next in line to get chopped? I bet there were plenty of people on this flight coming to CVG to connect, no? Also, United will cancel CVG-CLE starting in August. This is also a disappointment as it removes a ton of connection opportunities for CVG passengers on United. UA flyers will now be forced to go through much more congested hubs like ORD, EWR and IAD. Finally, DL announced today it will acquire AirTran's 717 fleet to replace RJs and DC-9s. What this means for CVG, I don't know at this point.
May 29, 201213 yr Disappointing news: DL officially loaded the PHX cancellation today. This is a very large market to loose and has both business and leisure implications for the tri-state. Seeing as how PHX functions as both a popular business and leisure destination and has year-round draw, I doubt this one is a seasonal cancellation. Looks like the direct service to PHX returns from mid-February through (at least) the end of April. This will be helpful for fans who want to see the Reds at Spring Training. If this flight continues for May 2013 and beyond --- we will see, not loaded yet. http://www.azcentral.com/business/consumer/articles/2012/05/25/20120525delta-pausing-flight-between-cincinnati-phoenix.html Also, United will cancel CVG-CLE starting in August. This is also a disappointment as it removes a ton of connection opportunities for CVG passengers on United. UA flyers will now be forced to go through much more congested hubs like ORD, EWR and IAD. I've heard speculation that (a) United had a contract with the city of Cleveland about having to maintain an average number of X flights per day, and (b) they were right up against that limit. Taking these 2 dailies off the board are strange considering that, plus: (1) DL just eliminated them too. (2) Business people DO travel this route, driving Cinci to Cleveland is not fun. (3) They were turbo-prop planes, where the flight's economics are somewhat better than a regional jet. Finally, DL announced today it will acquire AirTran's 717 fleet to replace RJs and DC-9s. What this means for CVG, I don't know at this point. I'd bet the 717's are predominately used to hubs from non-hubs, on relatively short routes that have a significant (but not "over-the-top large") amount of traffic. Routes like MSP-MCI, MSP-STL, MSP-OMA, MSP-FAR, DTW-MKE, DTW-STL, DTW-BWI, DTW-BNA, ATL-HSV, ATL-BUF, ATL-ORF, ATL-CLE. You get the idea. Outside of CVG-LGA and/or CVG-BOS, though, I doubt CVG sees them.
May 29, 201213 yr To help overcome any merger concerns, United/Continental agreed with Ohio Attorney General in Fall 2010 to keep 90% of combined CLE departures (189/day at the time) intact for at least 2 years after United/Continental merger.. I don't know current %/# - but if they were at or near the 90%, the local media would be buzzing for fear of losing the hub - and they have not been...
May 29, 201213 yr To help overcome any merger concerns, United/Continental agreed with Ohio Attorney General in Fall 2010 to keep 90% of combined CLE departures (189/day at the time) intact for at least 2 years after United/Continental merger.. I don't know current %/# - but if they were at or near the 90%, the local media would be buzzing for fear of losing the hub - and they have not been... OK thanks, I did not know the exact details ....... Another board I frequent, someone tracks this particularly closely and CLE has averaged just over ~ 170.5 flights/day (averaging out the usual "more flights on Fridays, Mondays and Sundays" and "less on Saturdays") over each of the first four months of 2012. That, of course, is almost exactly 90% of 189.
May 29, 201213 yr To help overcome any merger concerns, United/Continental agreed with Ohio Attorney General in Fall 2010 to keep 90% of combined CLE departures (189/day at the time) intact for at least 2 years after United/Continental merger.. I don't know current %/# - but if they were at or near the 90%, the local media would be buzzing for fear of losing the hub - and they have not been... OK thanks, I did not know the exact details ....... Another board I frequent, someone tracks this particularly closely and CLE has averaged just over ~ 170.5 flights/day (averaging out the usual "more flights on Fridays, Mondays and Sundays" and "less on Saturdays") over each of the first four months of 2012. That, of course, is almost exactly 90% of 189. That's because not all flights operate daily or are reduced from say 4 to 3 flights on a given day. The 170.5 is about where the number should be. The US DOJ approved the merger BEFORE UAL/CAL/OH entered into the Agreement in 2010. Rest assured, that 170.5 makes a profit otherwise the airlines and state would have never agreed in the first place. At the time of trhe Agreement the OH AG stated that the hub was profitable and just last week the new UAL CFO stated that the hub was "doing just that" when asked if it was positive in the UAL system. CVG and SBN incidentally have been added back in to the timetable for August.
May 29, 201213 yr Does anyone know what the LF look like on UA's CVG-CLE route? This route IS long enough to justify from a business travel perspective (it can take around 5 hours from Cincinnati to Cleveland driving) and CLE has lots of domestic UA connections available. It's also a far more convenient place to connect than ORD, IAD, DEN, etc.
May 29, 201213 yr 5 hours of driving?!?! What do you drive, an Amish buggy?!?! "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
May 30, 201213 yr 5 hours of driving?!?! What do you drive, an Amish buggy?!?! Right! 3.5 to 4 max. I think you're wrong about this...Google Maps shows downtown Cincy to downtown Cleveland at 250 miles or 4.5 hours. Sprinkle in a little Columbus rush hour and a bathroom break and you're well into 5 hours. I know I've been able to to it at 4 hours with no traffic or weather, but most times (leaving at rush hour) it takes closer to 5. And I drive 70-75 as much as I can.
May 30, 201213 yr I have to get up to Cleveland Clinic a couple times a year, and door to door it is 4:00 at 250 miles. I schedule the appointments for midday and make it round trip during daylight hours. Five hours means you're averaging 50 mph. On the other topic of CVG-CLE flights, business travelers no doubt like it, but when you factor in the 1.5 hour flight plus being at the airport one hour early, plus time to clear the airport and rent a car, you're talking three hours door to door. If one drives, you can go on your own schedule, listen to whatever you want in the car, and avoid all the lines and TSA theater, all for just an hour more. Plus save, what, $400? The economics no longer work out. When I used to travel for work, even Nashville, Chicago, Pittsburgh, and points in between at 5 hours were drive markets.
May 30, 201213 yr 5 hours of driving?!?! What do you drive, an Amish buggy?!?! Right! 3.5 to 4 max. I think you're wrong about this...Google Maps shows downtown Cincy to downtown Cleveland at 250 miles or 4.5 hours. Sprinkle in a little Columbus rush hour and a bathroom break and you're well into 5 hours. I know I've been able to to it at 4 hours with no traffic or weather, but most times (leaving at rush hour) it takes closer to 5. And I drive 70-75 as much as I can. Well when living there I would take I-71 and I think I left at all kinds of times, so not sure if it was rush hour, but still never more than 4, except for this one time the day before Thanksgiving in 2005 when it took 8!!!!
May 30, 201213 yr I'm going to jump on the 4.5-5 hr. bandwagon, but it's been some time since I have done the drive.
May 30, 201213 yr I've done it in 3.5... but that was once. Most typically, I can do it in 4-5 depending on traffic. 5 full hours to get to the Ytown area, though.
May 30, 201213 yr I've done Blue Ash to Independence in under 3.5 hours (Sun Eve), Blue Ash to Beachwood in under 3.75 hours (Thurs Afternoon); Beachwood is about even with Downtown CLE on I-271, so DT Cincy to DT Cle is 4 hours. 75 MPH on cruise Heck I can even make to Ashtabula in under 4.5 hours C'bus traffic is an easy bypass, SR 315 to avoid the split on I-71 N, I-270 only adds about 10 mins as well.
May 30, 201213 yr When I used to travel for work, even Nashville, Chicago, Pittsburgh, and points in between at 5 hours were drive markets. I agree with this. I travel quite a bit for work and 5 or so hours seems to be the cutoff time for driving vs flying. It's cheaper, less stressful, and just as quick to rent a car and drive than it is to fly to a destination that is closer than 5 hours. Either way, you lose half a days worth of work. I don't see a lot of people opting for a CVG to CLE business flight.
May 30, 201213 yr All this chatter is arguing for a high quailty rail service across the state. The TGV in France is so fast that some people commute daily from Lyon to Paris, a distance similar to Cincinnati > Cleveland.
May 30, 201213 yr All the more reason to argue for it. It's not economical for aircraft to spend the fuel, personnel and maintenance cost to fly small planes short distances. It's also a pain to drive a similar distance. This is where HSR can fill the gap. “All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.” -Friedrich Nietzsche
May 30, 201213 yr The problem with choosing a 30 minute flight over a 4-hour drive is that by the time you add the 1.5 for check-in/boarding, exiting the airport & getting from an airport to the city center or your actual destination, you're at three hours. From the City of Cincinnati to the City of Cleveland is 4:20. Five is definitely too long, four is making good time. 3.5 is outrageously good considering Columbus to the City of Cincinnati is about 1:40 by itself.
May 30, 201213 yr All this chatter is arguing for a high quailty rail service across the state. The TGV in France is so fast that some people commute daily from Lyon to Paris, a distance similar to Cincinnati > Cleveland. I'm always amazed how mediocre European states understand commuting patterns better than the State of Ohio, a province of 12 million with two cities that would be the 2nd and 3rd largest metros in a prominent country like France. This isn't a knock on France, but even the infrastructure present in lesser nations makes you wonder what's in the water in Ohio.
May 30, 201213 yr The CIC of the airport gets interviewed http://www.local12.com/content/newsmakers/story/Newsmakers-May-27-2012/LN-dFNE1PkaA3WP2YAR30w.cspx
May 30, 201213 yr Back on the topic of CVG though --- Very impressed with the remodel in concourse A. Nothing groundbreaking of course, but it definitely brings the space in line with the "nicer" airports in the US. Free WiFi (that actually works!), nice restrooms with lots of light, and plenty of workspace with charging stations. Also, the interior of the jetbridges are wrapped in full color photography of the city/bridges/music hall, etc...kind of cheesy at first but definitely great for visitors. The next hurdle is getting some additional service to fill all those extra gates. I suspect the likely candidates are US to PHX and maybe SWA comes down from DAY. Also, glad to see that UA has added mainline A320 service to ORD as well.
May 31, 201213 yr Good progress -- an additional route to a major connection point for points west and south as well as additional international destinations. Too bad these are all still on ERJs for the time be, hopefully they will switch to mainline with time. United Airlines adding a dozen CVG flights http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2012/05/31/united-airlines-adding-a-dozen-cvg.html The Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport said the new flight service will expand the number of daily flights to Newark from four to six. A second flight will be added on Saturdays. United’s expansion to Houston involves six additional weekly flights from the CVG Airport to Houston Intercontinental, boosting total daily flights from three to four.
June 1, 201213 yr I saw this. Good news, and seems to at least partially explain the end of CVG-CLE. Also, I was surprised to see that there were still 200 Delta departures each day from CVG, which puts it on about the same scale as the United hub in CLE. For some reason I thought that it had contracted well below that.
June 1, 201213 yr Though, according to the Enquirer story, this added United service probably hurts CVG's efforts to lure a low-cost carrier. Specifically, Southwest flies to Newark and Houston and JetBlue flies primarily to Newark. Was this United's pre-emptive strike to keep that business away from a LCC? http://nky.cincinnati.com/article/ab/20120531/NEWS/305310087&Ref=AR
June 1, 201213 yr United Airlines adds 10 flights at Cleveland Hopkins airport, cuts 2 to Cincinnati CLEVELAND, Ohio -- United Airlines is adjusting its flight schedules out of Cleveland Hopkins International Airport. The airline is adding 10 flights and cutting 2 others. United has increased daily service by one flight each to Boston, Denver, Dallas-Fort Worth, Washington Dulles, Portland (Maine), San Francisco, St. Louis, Mo., and three more daily flights to Chicago O'Hare, said United spokesman Joe Micucci from Chicago. http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/06/united_airlines_adds_10_flights_at_cleveland_hopkins_airport_cuts_2_others_to_cincinnati.html
June 2, 201213 yr Just on a whim, I was checking airfares from LAX to Cincinnati over Labor Day weekend. Better sit down and have a flask ready. These are one-way fares, based on the idea that I'd rent a Penske truck and move most of my furniture to LA that weekend. Here's what I found: LAX to CVG nonstop via Delta: $735 (No other carriers even offer nonstop LAX-CVG service.) LAX to CVG w/ one stop in Charlotte, via US Airways: $320 LAX to DAY w/ one stop in Denver, via United: $196 And there you have it, a perfect illustration of how Delta is killing CVG, and killing Cincinnati in the process. A streetcar and a few trendy bars in OTR won't mean jack for Cincinnati when the city is completely isolated from the rest of the country by high airfares and terrible service.
June 2, 201213 yr Delta isn't doing any more damage to CVG than the airport's board allows. Even during CVG's heyday, we knew Delta needed to share the throne with other carriers, and the airport has been reluctant to make this happen via drastic measures. They consistently say they're trying to attract an LCC, but every airport in America has done better at it in the past 10 years than CVG. No coincidence. CVG is rife with corruption and it's a shame for Cincinnati. Most of the board members are semi-retired, upper-class tax breaks waiting to happen that could care less or have no idea what it means to have a LCC in your region.
June 2, 201213 yr David, I got a non-stop rt to LAX from CVG the first week of July for $450. Dayton was only about $25 cheaper.
June 2, 201213 yr and i just found fares over labor day in the $475 range from cvg. keep in mind that yield management programs give high fares over 60 days out (usually). then, if little seats are sold, they decrease to a certain point until enough seats are sold to start raising fares again.
June 3, 201213 yr Just on a whim, I was checking airfares from LAX to Cincinnati over Labor Day weekend. Better sit down and have a flask ready. These are one-way fares, based on the idea that I'd rent a Penske truck and move most of my furniture to LA that weekend. Here's what I found: LAX to CVG nonstop via Delta: $735 (No other carriers even offer nonstop LAX-CVG service.) LAX to CVG w/ one stop in Charlotte, via US Airways: $320 LAX to DAY w/ one stop in Denver, via United: $196 And there you have it, a perfect illustration of how Delta is killing CVG, and killing Cincinnati in the process. A streetcar and a few trendy bars in OTR won't mean jack for Cincinnati when the city is completely isolated from the rest of the country by high airfares and terrible service. How is it $500 cheaper to fly a person more miles using more fuel than non-stop????
June 3, 201213 yr The airlines don't care which route is cheaper; they only care about what prices they can get away with. Delta is the only airline that even offers direct LAX-CVG service, so they can pretty much charge whatever the hell they want.
June 3, 201213 yr its because the demand for the non-stop is higher than a one-stop or connection. supply and demand. CVG is still a hub for DAL - smaller but a hub nevertheless. That non-stop from CVG is already full of connections from cities that DAL feeds through CVG. So when the seats are sold for the CVG-LAX segment, the airplane is already pretty full.
June 5, 201213 yr Ky. approves $2.7M incentives for Southern Air expansion at CVG Business Courier by Dan Monk, Senior Staff Reporter The Kentucky Economic Development Finance Authority approved up to $2.7 million in tax incentives to encourage a Southern Air Inc. expansion at the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport. As the Business Courier first reported in March, the Connecticut-based cargo airline is considering the CVG Airport in Hebron as one of four potential sites for a new management office that would employ more than 120 people. http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2012/06/05/ky-approves-27m-incentives-for.html
June 5, 201213 yr Not sure if this and the story above are related, other than they both have ties to DHL, but my friend was one who lost his job. Company closing Northern Ky. operation, laying off 160 Business Courier Date: Tuesday, June 5, 2012, 7:13am EDT Astar USA in Florence is ending operations with DHL and more than 160 people at the facility will lose their jobs, wcpo.com reported. Employees at Astar USA were informed of the layoffs at a staff meeting. DHL told the company it was unable to renew its contract. http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/morning_call/2012/06/company-closing-northern-ky.html
June 27, 201212 yr Looks like Delta will trim CVG-LAS to just 3x per week in September. Unclear what days it will operate on and/or if this is just a seasonal adjustment or not.
June 28, 201212 yr CVG plans single terminal Concourse A would handle all flights First, flight schedules were significantly reduced at Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport. Now, plans show some unused airport buildings coming down as well. Master plans obtained by The Enquirer show that officials are studying consolidating all passenger flights into one main concourse and building a new rental car facility adjacent to the one remaining terminal. CVG’s federally mandated master plan shows almost all passenger services consolidated in and around newly renovated Concourse A. It would be expanded to accommodate dominant carrier Delta Air Lines, which currently operates out of Concourse B. Cont "It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton
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