^ I don't think "accommodate" in this case means "bend to the will of", but more like "fit them in because it's convenient for us".

Well it looks like they need to make plans to move the 7 murals in Terminals 1 and 2 and the half dozen more in Concourse B.  Cincinnati should get them back and install them in the convention center or another public place. 

^ Why is there a 2 page article discussing plans and renderings that never shows the plans and renderings?

I understand maintenance costs are high, but do they really doubt that traffic will ever return to levels seen before the downsizing? Those concourse buildings are billion dollar investments. Billions of dollars the Cincinnati area would have to come up with should the airport ever need to be expanded again.

Cincinnati would be better off if the FCC disbanded CVG and the city started over with an all-new airport in an all-new location.  Leadership is so unqualified for the job that they do, maybe that's why it seems like the bonehead thought processes you're gonna hear get shouted out at a neighborhood council meeting are the ones that stick to the wall at CVG.

I understand maintenance costs are high, but do they really doubt that traffic will ever return to levels seen before the downsizing? Those concourse buildings are billion dollar investments. Billions of dollars the Cincinnati area would have to come up with should the airport ever need to be expanded again.

 

Yes, they probably do doubt it.  The return of 600+ departures/day is highly unlikely - even 300+.  Moreover, the concourses are proably either fully or close to being amortized and DAL is still on the hook fopr the leases.  Even if traffic returned to high levels in the future, the facilities would be dated.  Plus, in the meantime, CVG has to administer and pay for the upkeep of unused facilities.

How I see it is Terminal 1 and 2 are definitely gone, along with concourse C.  Then they build out concourse A to the east and west to include the new rental car facilities. Not sure how far they can extend to the east with concourse A before they start closing taxiways. After all that is done concourse B comes down but by then it will be well aged anyways.  Sound about right?  It will be interesting to see the actual master plan instead of speculation from the fishwrap.

 

 

I hope all this talk about consolidation of all carriers to Concourse A is just silly talk. Even after the remodeling of Concourse A, Concourse B is still nicer.

Cincinnati would be better off if the FCC disbanded CVG and the city started over with an all-new airport in an all-new location.  Leadership is so unqualified for the job that they do, maybe that's why it seems like the bonehead thought processes you're gonna hear get shouted out at a neighborhood council meeting are the ones that stick to the wall at CVG.

 

Where do you build a new airport? One of CVG's attractive features is its proximity to downtown. If you put a new airport up in Butler County - perhaps a joint Cincinnati/Dayton airport somewhere around Monroe - you don't have convenient travel to downtown at all. A taxi ride alone would cost about $40-$50, and traffic would be a nightmare during morning and evening commute times. Not to mention, any hope for a light rail link to downtown would probably be squashed for good.

This issue has been discussed on line ad nauseum.  There absolutely is space for an airport near the Big Jesus & Lebanon prison.  The space is about 2x2 miles, and so with minimal land acquisition they could put in 10,000 foot runways.  Connect Cincinnati and Dayton with a rapid transit line with suburban stops and a stop at this airport.  Pay for it in part by shutting down and selling off Dayton's airport. 

I totally understand terminals 1 & 2 being demolished for a consolidated rental car facility. This is becoming the standard at major airports.

 

I don't understand why CVG would go through the trouble of expanding Concourse A just to close down Concourse B. I mean, the two already share a single security checkpoint, tram system, bagage claim, and ticketing area. It can't be that much more expensive to keep Concourse B operating. Also, why downsize and eliminate the possibility of another carier coming to CVG in the future?

^That's what I don't understand. It seems like it would be doing way too much to tear down all that infrastructure which would certainly kill the possibility of another Airline coming in, unless billions were spent to rebuild. On the other hand, what Airline could feasibly come in to CVG and take over that space, especially with the major airlines merging with one another?

There is a big Comiar announcement coming next week. I believe it's going to announce they are leaving CVG for good. Their offices, maitanance hangar, etc. Possibly flights too.

CVG: The Incredible Shrinking Airport. I think our only hope is that someday, some low-cost carrier buys the entire airport for a dollar and actually starts offering flights.

^^^ That would make sense. There's been lots of buzz about this especially as DL seeks to remove its 50-seat flying.

 

I heard that CVG will be down to 70 flights by October. This was from a CVG-based DL employee and could very well be an exxageration, but who knows.  I would assume this would mean that without feed the Paris flight would have to go as well.

70 flights a day? impossible.

To be more specific it looks like Comair will be no more.

So we were at 500 flights in 2005 and now we're dropping below 100 seven years later?  Are these numbers correct?

This is serious. The Governor of both states should step up.

This is serious. The Governor of both states should step up.

 

and do what? It has been Delta's plan for many years to A) Dissolve Comair and B) Draw down the CVG hub. I would hope our elected officials are well aware of this. I don't like this anymore than anyone else, but I think the damage has been done and it's really a downward spiral from here on out. Comair's business model is no longer sustainable in the current market.

Sure they can. Offer incentives to airlines like they do for other companies in the area. Maybe Ohio can threaten to build another airport between Cincinnati and Dayton. Just the thought of that alone would  tell the board of directors at the airport, they need to do more than what they have been doing. Ohio don't want to lose any more of their businesses.

You guys are completely missing the issue of deregulation --  up until the Carter years the FAA regulated airline flights themselves like a utility.  This way an airline couldn't be corrupted to "shut off the lights" (like a steel mill buying the power plant that fueled a competing steel mill, then denying them service).  But in the unregulated environment we got booms in several midsized cities -- and now busts.  If airlines had remained regulated, CVG would not have boomed, but we wouldn't have built the white elephant third north/south runway. 

 

And btw the full 3-runway arrangement never ended up being used because Delta started downsizing almost immediately after it was built.  And immediately after it opened, either runway 1 or 2 closed for a year or two for repair work. 

You guys are completely missing the issue of deregulation --  up until the Carter years the FAA regulated airline flights themselves like a utility.  This way an airline couldn't "shut off the light".  But in the unregulated environment we got booms in several midsized cities -- and now busts.  If airlines had remained regulated, CVG would not have boomed, but we wouldn't have built the white elephant third north/south runway. 

 

And btw the full 3-runway arrangement never ended up being used because Delta started downsizing almost immediately after it was built.  And immediately after it opened, either runway 1 or 2 closed for a year or two for repair work. 

 

The "regulated" industry was the brainchild of the big four airlines in 1938 by way of the Civil Aeronautics Act.  The big four being United, American, Eastern and TWA (then called Transcontinental and Western Air).  It basically created a legal corporate oligopoly.  All lines charged the same fare for common routes.  Some routes were the monopoly of a single carrier.  Lines had to petition the CAB to enter a route (called a certificate) or to drop a route.  Mergers also had to be approved by the CAB.  New airlines could only be formed with the approval of the CAB and theoretically lines would not go out of business in the regulated environment (until Capital's 1960 bankruptcy - when it was absorbed into UAL).

 

 

Sure they can. Offer incentives to airlines like they do for other companies in the area. Maybe Ohio can threaten to build another airport between Cincinnati and Dayton. Just the thought of that alone would  tell the board of directors at the airport, they need to do more than what they have been doing. Ohio don't want to lose any more of their businesses.

 

Having worked in the airport business for a number of years, I have just one question: don't you think that CVG management has done exactly this?

 

For years CVG was beholden to Delta's whims because Delta (and to a lesser extent, DHL) paid the bills.  It was not in CVG's interest to pursue other carriers because of the Delta honey pot that was already there.  It's like owning a shopping center where your major tenant (and 90% of your rent) is Home Depot.  Do you risk pissing off Home Depot by making pitches to Lowe's?

 

So then the low-fare carriers go to airports all around Cincinnati to pick off some of CVG's customers.  Perfectly legitimate form of competition, and now those carriers do a good business at those airports and would only be diluting existing demand if they add CVG now.  They would have never been able to compete with DL directly at CVG, so they went around it. 

 

But the airline business being what it is, an extremely solid business case must be made for any airline to add a any city.  Scores of cities have tried grants, loans, fare guarantees, covering operating expenses, providing ground staff, even wet-leasing aircraft for the airline to use, almost all with terrible results.  It's easy to say "CVG management go make a pitch to Southwest and Airtran and Jet Blue," and in fact there are whole annual conventions set up where airport managers from all over the country can sit down with the airlines to pitch their cities.  The reality is that it's extremely difficult to get an airline to take a gamble on starting service to a new city.  Keep in mind too that DL with 70 daily frequencies is still nothing to trifle with.  Southwest might even love to give us Chicago, but DL already serves it (as does AA and UA) and would just match the price and let SkyMiles do the rest.

 

And do you really think pro-business, anti-regulation Kasich will issue some empty threats of building a huge regional airport with money we don't have on land we don't own?  Never mind that in this day and age it takes decades to get a major new airport built (ask Peotone, IL), by which time DL will do whatever it darn well pleases anyway.

 

Take a moment to think about the reality of this business.  Airline margins under deregulation have always been razor-thin, and more often non-existent.  One extra full seat often means the difference between a profitable flight versus a loss.  We can demand all we want but if conditions aren't exactly right, an airline simply won't supply it, incentives or not.

Sounds right.  With the news each week it seems like CVG is putting more of its eggs in the cargo basket.

http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/local_news/investigations/i-team-comair-shutting-down

I think Delta has seemingly been gunning to eliminate Comair for quite some time based on what friends who are now former employees have commented on over the last half-decade or so.  The day Concourse C closed, I became convinced they were right.

The news article however fails to state the most important reason for comair's drawdown.  DAL will shortly acquire SWA's entire fleet of 88 B717's.  In addition, DAL has been aggressively acquiring MD90's as they become avaiable from other lines.  DAL estimates it will retire 2 CRJ200's for every B717. 

A little humor from DERF magazine.....

 

 

CVG FOR SALE: Same price as one-way trip to Newark

 

FLORENCE, KY - The Greater Cincinnati International Airport is reportedly for sale, and the price is rumored to be approximately the same as the cost of a one-way ticket from CVG to Newark, NJ.  Although the asking price is firm, officials the airport can be purchased for one third of the asking price by simply driving to Louisville.

 

 

http://www.derfmagazine.com/news/business/cvg-sale

Comair announcement planed for 8:30am tomorrow (7/27), including press release. DL and OH leadership to be present.

 

Supposedly all Comair CRJ-200 (50 seater) flying will end on 9/4, after Labor Day. The remaining 28 CR7 and CR9 to be transitioned out through the month of September to other DCI carriers. OH effectively shutting down on 9/28.

 

Where this leaves CVG is anyone's best guess, but it's obviously not good news for us in any case.

A number of smaller tier cities bet on hubs and lost - Pittsburgh, Memphis, St. Louis (although a bit of a different story as it was home to TWA) - and now Cincinnati. This is the fact of the airline marketplace.  The good news is that locals aren't on the hook for paying off most of the capex. (Indy is still paying off massive amounts of bonds issued in conjunction with a now-shuttered United Airlines maintenance facility).

 

Cargo is super-competitive as well. Not clear why CVG would have a market advantage here, but certainly it could have some success.

 

A number of smaller tier cities bet on hubs and lost - Pittsburgh, Memphis, St. Louis (although a bit of a different story as it was home to TWA) - and now Cincinnati. This is the fact of the airline marketplace.  The good news is that locals aren't on the hook for paying off most of the capex. (Indy is still paying off massive amounts of bonds issued in conjunction with a now-shuttered United Airlines maintenance facility).

 

Cargo is super-competitive as well. Not clear why CVG would have a market advantage here, but certainly it could have some success.

 

DHL using CVG has to do more with location for long international legs.  Here is a good example,  http://flightaware.com/live/flight/PAC242 Polar does a lot of contract flying for DHL. 

Some photos from the now abandoned sections of the airport as seen during a special tour: http://bit.ly/CvgAirport

Ooooooh...they turned out fantastic!

Flew from CVG to Washington Dulles and back over the weekend for $149 total on United - easily the cheapest rate of any airport in the region. It was my first time in Concourse A since its reopening and it was impressive, though somewhat empty. I love the new Bengals/Reds jet bridge artwork at the gates also.

A number of smaller tier cities bet on hubs and lost - Pittsburgh, Memphis, St. Louis (although a bit of a different story as it was home to TWA) - and now Cincinnati. This is the fact of the airline marketplace.  The good news is that locals aren't on the hook for paying off most of the capex. (Indy is still paying off massive amounts of bonds issued in conjunction with a now-shuttered United Airlines maintenance facility).

 

Cargo is super-competitive as well. Not clear why CVG would have a market advantage here, but certainly it could have some success.

 

DHL using CVG has to do more with location for long international legs.  Here is a good example,  http://flightaware.com/live/flight/PAC242 Polar does a lot of contract flying for DHL. 

 

Could the 12k ft. runway have something to do with it?  Do any other regional airports have this feature?

A number of smaller tier cities bet on hubs and lost - Pittsburgh, Memphis, St. Louis (although a bit of a different story as it was home to TWA) - and now Cincinnati. This is the fact of the airline marketplace.  The good news is that locals aren't on the hook for paying off most of the capex. (Indy is still paying off massive amounts of bonds issued in conjunction with a now-shuttered United Airlines maintenance facility).

 

Cargo is super-competitive as well. Not clear why CVG would have a market advantage here, but certainly it could have some success.

 

DHL using CVG has to do more with location for long international legs.  Here is a good example,  http://flightaware.com/live/flight/PAC242 Polar does a lot of contract flying for DHL. 

 

Could the 12k ft. runway have something to do with it?  Do any other regional airports have this feature?

Yes and no.  I don't think the 747 needs that much runway when loaded to the gills, but it sure makes things easier.  Less wear and tear on the airframes too.  Not sure how much thicker the landing zones are on the bigger runways but that might be another consideration.  I can't think of any other long runways in the region that DHL could use without a hassle dealing with other traffic. Rickenbacker maybe?  Some other lightly used old Air Force base I am not thinking about.

 

Well, actually Wilmington has a couple of long runways.  I never understood the whole story of why DHL moved out of the facility up there and back to CVG.

Yes and no.  I don't think the 747 needs that much runway when loaded to the gills, but it sure makes things easier.  Less wear and tear on the airframes too.  Not sure how much thicker the landing zones are on the bigger runways but that might be another consideration.  I can't think of any other long runways in the region that DHL could use without a hassle dealing with other traffic. Rickenbacker maybe?  Some other lightly used old Air Force base I am not thinking about.

 

Well, actually Wilmington has a couple of long runways.  I never understood the whole story of why DHL moved out of the facility up there and back to CVG.

 

The takeoff run and required length of a runway is calculated from a bunch of parameters, including weight as you mention, but also max temperature/humidity and elevation.  And it's not just the distance needed to takeoff, but to also safely come to a stop from takeoff velocity if the no-go decision is made during roll-out.  Oh, and runways are uniformly thick along their length and width.

 

Air traffic is less of a consideration for cargo carriers as the bulk of their operations are at night when passenger and GA activity is at its lowest.

 

Rickenbacker does in fact have two 12,000-foot runways.  Dayton has a 10,900 foot runway, Airborne Airpark has 10,700, and Toledo Express has 10,600.  All of these would be fine for the 767s DHL runs these days.

 

As for why DHL moved back to CVG, it's complicated, but as I recall (and I might be forgetting details), first there was the freight carrier Airborne Express (ABX).  ABX became the wholly-owned contract US freight airline for DHL, because as a foreign carrier DHL is not allowed to fly point-to-point within the US, only from the US to international destinations.  DHL/ABX built out Wilmington as a hub for this domestic service, and as such built it quite large because of the volume it was carrying domestically (I think at one time Wilmington was in the top two or three US airports for cargo tonnage).  DHL, meanwhile, initially ran its international gateway at CVG, but later consolidated this to Wilmington.  When DHL later decided to pull out of the US domestic shipping market, it had no need to own and operate the airport and large hub at Wilmington.  Thus ABX moved its operations to CVG for its international shipping, where there was already a mothballed DHL hub facility that was closer to the correct size.  DHL continues to use ABX for its international lift, while ABX also has other contracts. 

 

From what I can tell, DHL's remaining international routes from CVG are limited to Leicester, England, Guadalajara, Mexico and Hamilton, Ontario.  You don't need a huge hub at Wilmington for that.

 

Yes and no.  I don't think the 747 needs that much runway when loaded to the gills, but it sure makes things easier.  Less wear and tear on the airframes too.  Not sure how much thicker the landing zones are on the bigger runways but that might be another consideration.  I can't think of any other long runways in the region that DHL could use without a hassle dealing with other traffic. Rickenbacker maybe?  Some other lightly used old Air Force base I am not thinking about.

 

Well, actually Wilmington has a couple of long runways.  I never understood the whole story of why DHL moved out of the facility up there and back to CVG.

 

The takeoff run and required length of a runway is calculated from a bunch of parameters, including weight as you mention, but also max temperature/humidity and elevation.  And it's not just the distance needed to takeoff, but to also safely come to a stop from takeoff velocity if the no-go decision is made during roll-out.  Oh, and runways are uniformly thick along their length and width.

 

Air traffic is less of a consideration for cargo carriers as the bulk of their operations are at night when passenger and GA activity is at its lowest.

 

Rickenbacker does in fact have two 12,000-foot runways.  Dayton has a 10,900 foot runway, Airborne Airpark has 10,700, and Toledo Express has 10,600.  All of these would be fine for the 767s DHL runs these days.

 

As for why DHL moved back to CVG, it's complicated, but as I recall (and I might be forgetting details), first there was the freight carrier Airborne Express (ABX).  ABX became the wholly-owned contract US freight airline for DHL, because as a foreign carrier DHL is not allowed to fly point-to-point within the US, only from the US to international destinations.  DHL/ABX built out Wilmington as a hub for this domestic service, and as such built it quite large because of the volume it was carrying domestically (I think at one time Wilmington was in the top two or three US airports for cargo tonnage).  DHL, meanwhile, initially ran its international gateway at CVG, but later consolidated this to Wilmington.  When DHL later decided to pull out of the US domestic shipping market, it had no need to own and operate the airport and large hub at Wilmington.  Thus ABX moved its operations to CVG for its international shipping, where there was already a mothballed DHL hub facility that was closer to the correct size.  DHL continues to use ABX for its international lift, while ABX also has other contracts. 

 

From what I can tell, DHL's remaining international routes from CVG are limited to Leicester, England, Guadalajara, Mexico and Hamilton, Ontario.  You don't need a huge hub at Wilmington for that.

 

That is correct.

I was a Flight Engineer for four years and did all of the Take-Off/Landing Data by hand using performance charts.  Didn't want to get complicated with the answer.  I could have sworn that I read somewhere that the landing zones were thicker but I wouldn't be surprised if I were completely wrong. 

 

I was thinking traffic caused by the other cargo companies.  Memphis and Indy are FedEx, Louisville is UPS.  I am not sure if any other airports have the ramp space to handle a cargo op. All of this doesn't matter since they did have the mothballed hub at CVG. I forgot they owned Wilmington, I wonder what it was costing them that drove the decision to move back to CVG? 

 

Funny that we are talking about the long runways at Wilmington.  This weekend they are using one of the runways for land speed trials, called the Ohio Mile.  Should be a good time for us motorheads. 

Good synopsis, Dizzy.  Part of what made the jockeying nonsense was the acquisitions and spins.

 

Their business seems to be growing by leaps.  I'm surprised that their offices are still based in Clinton County.

OHSnap said it better then I ever could.

 

I wonder what the comparison in sq/ft is between Wilmington when it closed and what CVG is at now. 

Comair's last flight was today.

JetBlue in Cincinnati?

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/blog/2012/10/could-cvg-airport-find-its-needed.html

Proposed aircraft maintenance hub at CVG could bring hundreds of jobs

Business Courier by Jon Newberry, Staff Reporter

Date: Thursday, October 25, 2012, 11:44am EDT - Last Modified: Thursday, October 25, 2012, 11:51am EDT

 

 

TIMCO Aviation Services Inc. proposed a new aircraft maintenance center to be established at the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport.

 

The project is expected to create 165 jobs within five years, according to a report released Thursday by the Kentucky Economic Development Finance Authority.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2012/10/25/proposed-aircraft-maintenence-hub.html

TIMCO's statement about new hub at CVG airport

Business Courier by Jon Newberry, Staff Reporter

Date: Thursday, October 25, 2012, 2:43pm EDT

 

Greensboro, N.C.-based TIMCO Aviation Services Inc., as reported earlier today by the Business Courier, has proposed operating a maintenance facility at Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport that would employ 165 people within five years.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2012/10/25/timcos-statement-about-new-hub-at-cvg.html

Just found this interesting tidbit on the FlyerTalk forum (originally from Wall Street Journal):

 

While Delta Air Lines Inc. has slashed its international flights from Cincinnati over the past decade, it has spared the daily Paris flight partly because of the route's lucrative cargo: 4.2 million pounds of jet-engine parts ferried each year between factories near the two cities.

 

The one flight international flight out of the Cincinnati-Northern Kentucky International Airport.

BTW, reading back through this thread and following the decline of CVG in these pages is truly depressing.

Just found this interesting tidbit on the FlyerTalk forum (originally from Wall Street Journal):

 

While Delta Air Lines Inc. has slashed its international flights from Cincinnati over the past decade, it has spared the daily Paris flight partly because of the route's lucrative cargo: 4.2 million pounds of jet-engine parts ferried each year between factories near the two cities.

 

The one flight international flight out of the Cincinnati-Northern Kentucky International Airport.

 

I'm taking it in December for the first time. It was the cheapest option when I booked the ticket a month ago.

Frontier is pulling out of Dayton at the end of May, citing Southwest's presence there and not wanting to compete with them for Dayton-Denver travelers.

 

Could CVG be a possibility for Frontier? There is currently no low-cost competition and Frontier could corner that market. I think Frontier could do well in Cincinnati.

 

Frontier also pulled out of Louisville but added/boosted service to Columbus and Cleveland.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2013/01/11/frontier-dayton.html

We can all lament the reduction at CVG, but it is due to some basic fundamental economics.

 

First was consolidation within the airline industry. When Delta merged with Northwest the first problem was identified. Northwest had invested huge sums of money in facilities at the Detroit airport. For some strange reason a number of Northwest executives were elevated to high positions within Delta. CVG and Detroit were too close together. The decision was made to go with Detroit and downsize CVG.

 

Second was the deemphasis of the hub concept. This was largely due to the rapid acknowledgement the regional jet was doomed. The very thing which had made Comair the king of the regional airline industry and the feeder of the hubs was its downfall. With large increases in fuel prices the inefficiency of the regional jet made it too expensive to operate. The very thing which had spurred Comair's development, frequent flights at convenient intervals to destinations like Montreal became its liability, unless fully loaded the regional jet was uneconomical to operate. Even at fully loaded it was marginal. Thus Comair is no more, a huge effect on CVG.

 

I applaud the decision to consolidate airline operations in the newest and largest Terminal 3. This should provide a much more pleasant environment for all passengers.

 

The return of ABX/DHL to CVG was also a simple economic decision. Back when DHL had acquired Airborne Express to make them their US domestic distribution arm, the move to Wilmington was warranted. The number of total flights, particularly domestic and the cargo sorting capacity demanded a facility as large as Wilmington. But when DHL decided they had made a mistake and to exit the US domestic cargo distribution business Wilmington immediately became a liability. The mothballed DHL facility at CVG became a natural to return there as a terminus for DHL's international shipping. CVG certainly has the runway capacity for the type of aircraft they are using.

 

As has been commented, the only reason CVG has an international flight to Paris is the lucrative jet engine parts cargo business between GE Evendale and Seneca of France outside Paris.

 

Rather than a negative attitude, we need to encourage CVG to encourage other carriers to come in there with offerings. But to dream about a return to the glory days when Delta operated a major hub here - not likely. Cincinnati itself just does not produce enough locally generated airline traffic for this to happen. I would be happy if just enough other carriers were brought in to offset the average ticket cost so the perception of overly expensive was overcome. But don't blame Delta. If no one else shows up to challenge them they are only doing what most businesses do - charge what the traffic will bear.