August 1, 201311 yr >How many regions around the world have over 3 million people with the kind of economic might that SW Ohio has? Probably less than 50. There are cities of 10 million in China with the economy of Norwood.
August 1, 201311 yr Cincinnati has two airports: CVG and James Cox. The region is at an advantage domestically. There should be rail between the two ports. Maybe if you consider Cinci and Dayton to be some kind of megalopolis. Downtown Cinci to DAY is approx. 70 miles. that's a bit too far to be considered a co-terminal (think JFK/LGA). Flights such as CVG-DAY and CVG-LEX are tag end flights. It's not expected that they generate much O&D. In fact that's why such city pairs have exorbitant fares and another reason why, in its' heyday, CVG had the highes average fares. CVG had alot of short stage length flights which were high fare thus driving up the average airfare. 70 miles? You must be talking about airport to airport. Downtown to Downtown is 49 miles.
August 1, 201311 yr Cincinnati has two airports: CVG and James Cox. The region is at an advantage domestically. There should be rail between the two ports. Maybe if you consider Cinci and Dayton to be some kind of megalopolis. Downtown Cinci to DAY is approx. 70 miles. that's a bit too far to be considered a co-terminal (think JFK/LGA). Flights such as CVG-DAY and CVG-LEX are tag end flights. It's not expected that they generate much O&D. In fact that's why such city pairs have exorbitant fares and another reason why, in its' heyday, CVG had the highes average fares. CVG had alot of short stage length flights which were high fare thus driving up the average airfare. How many regions around the world have over 3 million people with the kind of economic might that SW Ohio has? Not as many as most Americans think. There's more industry in SW Ohio than in most countries around the world. You're a pilot so I'll assume that you knew this, but there are a lot of airports within 70 miles of major economic centers that aren't central to that city. That's why when you search flights, there's an option to include airports within 80 miles or so. Ohio is behind on this, but many of those regions have some form of transit to get passengers from the airport to the city center, so maybe that's why the two cities appear more disconnected than they really are. Cincinnati and Dayton are connected socially, physically and economically, just not politically. If a flyer can save a chunk of funds by flying into Dayton and having someone pick them up from the airport and drive them home to the Cincinnati metro, they will do it. It's been happening for years and CVG hates it. That's why I consider Cincinnati to have two domestic ports. and what has any of that have to do with O&D traffic and fares?
August 1, 201311 yr Cincinnati has two airports: CVG and James Cox. The region is at an advantage domestically. There should be rail between the two ports. Maybe if you consider Cinci and Dayton to be some kind of megalopolis. Downtown Cinci to DAY is approx. 70 miles. that's a bit too far to be considered a co-terminal (think JFK/LGA). Flights such as CVG-DAY and CVG-LEX are tag end flights. It's not expected that they generate much O&D. In fact that's why such city pairs have exorbitant fares and another reason why, in its' heyday, CVG had the highes average fares. CVG had alot of short stage length flights which were high fare thus driving up the average airfare. How many regions around the world have over 3 million people with the kind of economic might that SW Ohio has? Not as many as most Americans think. There's more industry in SW Ohio than in most countries around the world. You're a pilot so I'll assume that you knew this, but there are a lot of airports within 70 miles of major economic centers that aren't central to that city. That's why when you search flights, there's an option to include airports within 80 miles or so. Ohio is behind on this, but many of those regions have some form of transit to get passengers from the airport to the city center, so maybe that's why the two cities appear more disconnected than they really are. Cincinnati and Dayton are connected socially, physically and economically, just not politically. If a flyer can save a chunk of funds by flying into Dayton and having someone pick them up from the airport and drive them home to the Cincinnati metro, they will do it. It's been happening for years and CVG hates it. That's why I consider Cincinnati to have two domestic ports. The O& D for DAY is only between 500-600 thousand Pax/year. DAY and its evirons is sufficiently populated to account for most of that. There really isn't that many people who drive from CVG to DAY. As far as considering DAY to be a second airport for CVG or even CAK as a second airport for CLE, we never did that at my line. There are penty of cities around the world in close proximity that have multiple airports serving that cluster. CLE/CAK; DET/FNT; MIA/FLL/PBI; MCO/SFB/DAY/MLB; VIE/BRT; The enire Ruhr Valley in Germany; DCA/BWI; PHL/ABE and so on.......
August 1, 201311 yr Cincinnati has two airports: CVG and James Cox. The region is at an advantage domestically. There should be rail between the two ports. Downtown Cinci to DAY Maybe if you consider Cinci and Dayton to be some kind of megalopolis. Downtown Cinci to DAY is approx. 70 miles. that's a bit too far to be considered a co-terminal (think JFK/LGA). Flights such as CVG-DAY and CVG-LEX are tag end flights. It's not expected that they generate much O&D. In fact that's why such city pairs have exorbitant fares and another reason why, in its' heyday, CVG had the highes average fares. CVG had alot of short stage length flights which were high fare thus driving up the average airfare. 70 miles? You must be talking about airport to airport. Downtown to Downtown is 49 miles. Downtown Cinci to DAY
August 1, 201311 yr Cincinnati has two airports: CVG and James Cox. The region is at an advantage domestically. There should be rail between the two ports. Maybe if you consider Cinci and Dayton to be some kind of megalopolis. Downtown Cinci to DAY is approx. 70 miles. that's a bit too far to be considered a co-terminal (think JFK/LGA). Flights such as CVG-DAY and CVG-LEX are tag end flights. It's not expected that they generate much O&D. In fact that's why such city pairs have exorbitant fares and another reason why, in its' heyday, CVG had the highes average fares. CVG had alot of short stage length flights which were high fare thus driving up the average airfare. How many regions around the world have over 3 million people with the kind of economic might that SW Ohio has? Not as many as most Americans think. There's more industry in SW Ohio than in most countries around the world. You're a pilot so I'll assume that you knew this, but there are a lot of airports within 70 miles of major economic centers that aren't central to that city. That's why when you search flights, there's an option to include airports within 80 miles or so. Ohio is behind on this, but many of those regions have some form of transit to get passengers from the airport to the city center, so maybe that's why the two cities appear more disconnected than they really are. Cincinnati and Dayton are connected socially, physically and economically, just not politically. If a flyer can save a chunk of funds by flying into Dayton and having someone pick them up from the airport and drive them home to the Cincinnati metro, they will do it. It's been happening for years and CVG hates it. That's why I consider Cincinnati to have two domestic ports. The O& D for DAY is only between 500-600 thousand Pax/year. DAY and its evirons is sufficiently populated to account for most of that. There really isn't that many people who drive from CVG to DAY. As far as considering DAY to be a second airport for CVG or even CAK as a second airport for CLE, we never did that at my line. There are penty of cities around the world in close proximity that have multiple airports serving that cluster. CLE/CAK; DET/FNT; MIA/FLL/PBI; MCO/SFB/DAY/MLB; VIE/BRT; The enire Ruhr Valley in Germany; DCA/BWI; PHL/ABE and so on....... I wasn't talking to you and now you've ruined my response! UGH!! Damn you!
August 1, 201311 yr And just an FYI, no one in Dayton calls the airport "James Cox" Airport. I'd be willing to bet that 95% of the people in this metro would be like "where is that at?" if asked. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
August 2, 201311 yr >"where is that at?" Donald H. Rolf Circle Freeway ORC 5533.25 Donald H. Rolf circle freeway. That part of the road known as interstate route two hundred seventy-five, which encircles the city of Cincinnati and extends through Ohio shall be known as the "Donald H. Rolf Circle Freeway." The director of transportation shall erect suitable markers, in accordance with federal regulations, upon said highway indicating its name. Effective Date: 07-26-1982 The Director of Transportation really dropped the ball on erecting suitable markers for that one
August 2, 201311 yr https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=39.146178,-84.819237&spn=0.000608,0.001321&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=39.146178,-84.819237&panoid=o5jPkpE0KzoKTmqJjR2kVw&cbp=12,16.23,,0,0.82
August 2, 201311 yr And just an FYI, no one in Dayton calls the airport "James Cox" Airport. I'd be willing to bet that 95% of the people in this metro would be like "where is that at?" if asked. I'm not from Dayton, but I know that no one calls DAY by its full name. I call every airport by its name except those that are named after the city, like CVG. Hartsfield, Heathrow, Lambert...
August 2, 201311 yr ^the very first time I flew on a plane it was out of Dayton (to Cleveland)...if I recall correctly everybody called the airport Vandalea (spelling). Is it still referred to as such?
August 2, 201311 yr ^the very first time I flew on a plane it was out of Dayton (to Cleveland)...if I recall correctly everybody called the airport Vandalea (spelling). Is it still referred to as such? I think the locals call it that because the airport is in Vandalia, Ohio. It might have been called Vandalia in the past that stuck culturally, but I'm not sure.
August 2, 201311 yr And just an FYI, no one in Dayton calls the airport "James Cox" Airport. I'd be willing to bet that 95% of the people in this metro would be like "where is that at?" if asked. I'm not from Dayton, but I know that no one calls DAY by its full name. I call every airport by its name except those that are named after the city, like CVG. Hartsfield, Heathrow, Lambert... My charts read: Cox Dayton International or officially: James M Cox Dayton International
August 3, 201311 yr And just an FYI, no one in Dayton calls the airport "James Cox" Airport. I'd be willing to bet that 95% of the people in this metro would be like "where is that at?" if asked. I'm not from Dayton, but I know that no one calls DAY by its full name. I call every airport by its name except those that are named after the city, like CVG. Hartsfield, Heathrow, Lambert... My charts read: Cox Dayton International or officially: James M Cox Dayton International I have been in Dayton for two years now and most people just seem to call it the Dayton airport.
August 7, 201311 yr CVG expected to announce new carrier Chris Wetterich Staff reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier Ultimate Air, the charter service currently operating out of Lunken Airport, is expected to make an announcement on Wednesday about offering service at Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport. CVG officials have called a news conference for 10 a.m., although they wouldn’t say what it’s about. http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/08/06/cvg-expected-to-announce-new-carrier.html
August 7, 201311 yr Allegiant Air is exploring service out of Lunken: Cincinnati: Lunken Airport News "It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton
August 13, 201311 yr https://www.ultimateairshuttle.com/ That's great that there is scheduled service at LUK, but Morristown, NJ is hardly NYC!
August 13, 201311 yr https://www.ultimateairshuttle.com/ That's great that there is scheduled service at LUK, but Morristown, NJ is hardly NYC! I think they provide a free shuttle bus into Manhattan from the airport in Morristown as part of the flight.
August 14, 201311 yr Shuttle from Morristown is separate from your airline ticket. Shuttle will cost you $69.99 round trip in addition to your flight cost.
August 21, 201311 yr Members of CVG board and airport CEO in conflict: EXCLUSIVE Chris Wetterich Staff reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier Some members of the board that runs Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport and the airport’s chief executive, Candace McGraw, are at odds over multiple issues, according to sources familiar with the situation. The CVG board met in an executive session that lasted more than 90 minutes at its regular meeting on Monday night. http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/blog/2013/08/members-of-cvg-board-and-airport-ceo.html
August 22, 201311 yr I bet there is a lot of tension at the airport right now. CVG has admitted that shrinking is in its future, with their plans to demolish Terminal 2 and build a new rental car facility there, and the long-term plan to demolish Concourse B and move everything into an expanded Concourse A. Maybe there are some board members (or the CEO) who think that this is a temporary blip and that CVG will return to its former glory.
August 22, 201311 yr I bet there is a lot of tension at the airport right now. CVG has admitted that shrinking is in its future, with their plans to demolish Terminal 2 and build a new rental car facility there, and the long-term plan to demolish Concourse B and move everything into an expanded Concourse A. Maybe there are some board members (or the CEO) who think that this is a temporary blip and that CVG will return to its former glory. Without sitting down and analyzing it fully, that just seems like so much infrastructure to retire permanently. By that I mean Concourse B. Is mothballing it THAT expensive?
August 22, 201311 yr Without sitting down and analyzing it fully, that just seems like so much infrastructure to retire permanently. By that I mean Concourse B. Is mothballing it THAT expensive? I'm guessing that they're tearing it out because even if they needed the space, it would have to be entirely renovated... tearing it down at least clears the slate.
August 22, 201311 yr ^Huh? Concourse B is the nicest part of the entire airport! Terminal A's renovation has made it look decent, but it's still no where close to approaching the quality of B.
August 22, 201311 yr ^Huh? Concourse B is the nicest part of the entire airport! Terminal A's renovation has made it look decent, but it's still no where close to approaching the quality of B. Concourse B is one of the nicest airport terminals in the country in my opinion. High ceilings, bright, lots of windows, wide aisles - it's top notch. Tearing it down would be a big loss.
August 22, 201311 yr ^Huh? Concourse B is the nicest part of the entire airport! Terminal A's renovation has made it look decent, but it's still no where close to approaching the quality of B. Concourse B is one of the nicest airport terminals in the country in my opinion. High ceilings, bright, lots of windows, wide aisles - it's top notch. Tearing it down would be a big loss. 100% agree.
August 22, 201311 yr >Tearing it down would be a big loss. Here at CVG we're seeing precisely why the airlines were regulated until the late 1970s. Deregulation led to the boom and bust which has been incredibly wasteful. Concourse B is still less than 20 years old but if it was built with 30-year bonds then they're stuck still retiring the debt. It's just like the interurban railroads in the 1920s-30s.
August 22, 201311 yr I'm mobile but isn't there a graphic up thread showing alts for right sizing the facilities? IIRC, at least one proposes keep B, correct?
August 23, 201311 yr Arlinghaus to airport board, CEO: Can’t we all get along? Chris Wetterich Staff reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier Kenton County Judge Executive Steve Arlinghaus told the chief executive of the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport and the airport board’s chairman and vice chairman that they must work together days after a contentious executive session of the board over CEO Candace McGraw’s status. Some members of the board and McGraw have feuded in recent months over issues they decline to discuss. http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/08/22/arlinghaus-to-airport-board-ceo.html
August 23, 201311 yr I'm mobile but isn't there a graphic up thread showing alts for right sizing the facilities? IIRC, at least one proposes keep B, correct? Yes, I posted a graphic earlier in this thread. There are multiple options that are being considered, but the airport doesn't want to operate the tram from the Terminal to Concourse B if they don't have to. If the airport's traffic volume stays low, it makes more financial sense for them to move everything into Concourse A, build a pedestrian bridge from the Terminal to Concourse A, close Concourse B and stop operating the tram. They could mothball Concourse B for some hypothetical future where we CVG becomes a major hub again, but that seems unlikely.
August 26, 201311 yr Shutting down or demolishing Concourse B is purely asinine. It is the nicest part of the entire airport. If you don't want the expense of operating the tram, which I cannot understand, then shut it down and make everyone walk to Concourse B. That will not kill them, I have done it many times. But don't shut down the best part of the airport. You can shut down Concourse A and nobody is going to lament it. If you have to mothball something, make it Concourse A. If you have to shut something down you do not have to regress to the 1960s.
August 27, 201311 yr Shutting down or demolishing Concourse B is purely asinine. It is the nicest part of the entire airport. If you don't want the expense of operating the tram, which I cannot understand, then shut it down and make everyone walk to Concourse B. That will not kill them, I have done it many times. But don't shut down the best part of the airport. You can shut down Concourse A and nobody is going to lament it. If you have to mothball something, make it Concourse A. If you have to shut something down you do not have to regress to the 1960s. Unfortunately that's not how things work. And why can't you understand why they don't want the expense of operating the tram? It's an unnecessary expense at the end of the day. If they can work without it they should. CVG should be acting like a business and finding efficiencies.
August 27, 201311 yr Tearing down Concourse B today would be ridiculously shortsighted and knee-jerk. What happens if, say, three years after Concourse B is demolished another major airline (Southwest? Frontier?) is looking for a hub in this part of the country and CVG is just too small? So they opt for Indianapolis or Cleveland instead? There were some who wanted to tear down Union Terminal in the 70s after train service diminished. In fact, Cincinnati is great at just tearing things down now that we don't have immediate uses for, to the detriment of future generations. How would that Mount Adams Incline look today?
August 27, 201311 yr The plan is to tear down Concourse B in about 25-30 years. That will put the concourse at 45-50 years old and in need of being replaced. Before it is replaced, A Concourse will be expanded west to about where the Terminal 1 concourse now sits. Once that section is completed, they will build on the opposite side of where the new section is built and it will be as long as A concourse is now. At that time, the current A Concourse will be demolished and CVG will be left with one mileish long concourse.
September 2, 201311 yr Shutting down or demolishing Concourse B is purely asinine. It is the nicest part of the entire airport. If you don't want the expense of operating the tram, which I cannot understand, then shut it down and make everyone walk to Concourse B. That will not kill them, I have done it many times. But don't shut down the best part of the airport. You can shut down Concourse A and nobody is going to lament it. If you have to mothball something, make it Concourse A. If you have to shut something down you do not have to regress to the 1960s. It doesn't matter whether or not it's asinine. It's all about the money. It they can save money by demolishing Concourse B and shutting down the tram, they will. It's also asinine that they would demolish the historic Union Terminal murals that are currently hanging in Terminal 2, but if someone doesn't step up and provide the money to move them elsewhere, that is what's going to happen. Also, people are strangely obsessed with walking distances at airports. People would get irrationally upset if they had to walk "all the way" from Terminal to Concourse B. So they're not shutting down the tram while Concourse B is open.
September 17, 201311 yr Frontier Airlines exceeds expectations at CVG Sep. 17, 2013 5:23 AM Written by Jason Williams By all accounts, Frontier Airlines has been successful during its first four months at Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport. Frontier’s daily, nonstop flight to Denver has averaged 95 percent full since the low-cost carrier launched operations at CVG on May 17, airport officials said Monday. And during its first month at CVG, Frontier doubled its profit – an indication the region might be ready to support a low-cost airline after several failed attempts at CVG. http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20130917/BIZ/309170037/Frontier-Airlines-exceeds-expectations-CVG
September 26, 201311 yr CVG Press Release today: Local Passenger and Cargo Traffic Showing Steady Increases at CVG Sept. 26, 2013 – Local passengers using Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport (CVG) have been up for six straight months, a key indicator of increasingly positive momentum for the region’s largest commercial airport. The airport also has experienced year-over-year increases in its cargo traffic, as well as concession and parking revenues. For the sixth consecutive month, CVG has experienced year-over-year growth in its origin, or local, passengers. Origin passengers in the month of July 2013 increased 6% while in August 2013 traffic increased approximately 5% compared to origin passengers in the prior year. Overall, year-to-date, origin traffic is 2.4% higher compared to 2012. “All of the passenger, cargo and revenue metrics are moving in the right direction and showing a very positive story of reinvention at CVG,” said James Huff, chairman of the Kenton County Airport Board. At the height of the airport’s passenger volume in 2005, approximately 75% of its passengers were connecting through the airport on their way to another destination, with only 25% of its passengers originating from CVG. After the merger between Delta and Northwest Airlines and flights decreased, the profile of the CVG passenger changed. In 2012, approximately 70% were local travelers coming through CVG’s front door, with connecting passengers accounting for 30% of the traffic. The percentage of local passengers is expected to increase through 2013. “We have invested in serving the local traveling public and those investments are paying off,” said Candace McGraw, chief executive officer of CVG. “We’ve placed an emphasis on diversifying our carriers, our routes and our fares and it has made our airport very appealing to the region’s travelers. The airport’s long-term success is directly connected to growing our local passenger base.” CVG has also experienced growth in its cargo traffic. Buoyed by DHL’s growing presence at the airport, cargo increased approximately 10 % year-over-year through August 2013. The increase in cargo helps CVG keep its landing fees stable, which is attractive to prospective carriers. “The airport has created an incredible partnership with DHL that has led DHL to invest $105 million in capital projects since 2009 and expand from 1,600 to 2,300 employees,” McGraw said. “Cargo accounts for about 47 percent of the airport’s landed weight. More than 90 percent of everything shipped via DHL in the Americas travels through CVG. That is a tremendous advantage for our airport.” May’s addition of Frontier Airlines and this month’s launch of Ultimate Air Shuttle are two of the more noteworthy enhancements driving up CVG’s metrics. CVG continues to be the premier airport in a three-state region, offering more than 170 daily departures to 47 non-stop cities – more than any other airport in the region – and the only airport in the three states with direct service to Europe. Huff said CVG’s people have played an important part as well. “One of the most powerful reasons we are growing is because of the outstanding customer service passengers receive at CVG,” he said. “The CVG community recognizes it is serving its family, friends and neighbors on a daily basis and you can count on our employees to turn on the Midwestern charm that has led our airport to be named Best Regional Airport in North America three straight years.”
September 26, 201311 yr If fares start coming into the general orbit of where other airports' fares are, I can only imagine O&D going higher and higher. So long as fares remain significantly higher than DAY, IND, CMH, and SDF, CVG won't see its potential. The bit about Frontier and Ultimate being "noteworthy advancements" is fluff. They do very little on their own to change the game. The noteworthy advancement seems to be that Delta's ever-tightening grip may have hit a sustainable bottom (or, less likely, an inflection point), despite retaining the highest airfares in the country.
September 27, 201311 yr CVG Press Release today: Local Passenger and Cargo Traffic Showing Steady Increases at CVG Sept. 26, 2013 – Local passengers using Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport (CVG) have been up for six straight months, a key indicator of increasingly positive momentum for the region’s largest commercial airport. The airport also has experienced year-over-year increases in its cargo traffic, as well as concession and parking revenues. wow---all that article without ever once mentioning what the passenger or cargo levels actually are. are they intentionally trying to hide this info or just bad writing?
October 9, 201311 yr Frontier will announce today new flights to Trenton, NJ. The flights will be on Mon, Tues and Wed. This is awesome news for CVG and the local community.
October 9, 201311 yr ^Excellent news! The Enquirer's article is out: Frontier to add more flights at CVG Frontier Airlines plans to add more flights at Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport – launching nonstop service to an airport that serves both the Philadelphia and New York City regions. The low-cost carrier will launch three roundtrip flights a week to Trenton, N.J., beginning Feb. 12, CVG announced Wednesday. Flights are scheduled to depart CVG at 4:45 p.m. on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Frontier is offering one-way, $39 introductory ticket prices. Cont "It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton
October 9, 201311 yr Frontier will announce today new flights to Trenton, NJ. The flights will be on Mon, Tues and Wed. This is awesome news for CVG and the local community. It's good news...but why is it "awesome?" I mean...Trenton... Not to be a Debby-downer. Just wondering why you're so excited by it. Edit: Frontier is offering one-way, $39 introductory ticket prices. Actually, that is pretty awesome.
October 9, 201311 yr CVG pisses me off. Need to go to Santa Anna is Feb (which means avoid cold weather connecting airports). Options are Indy, $264 Dayton $320 CVG $470
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