There are a lot of spinoffs for these jobs. It creates legal jobs, accounting jobs, architectual and enginnering jobs,  and other third party management jobs for the region that will pay much higher rates. There is additional development that is created from this from apartments and housing to other commercial investment. Having the hub here will spur a lot of additional growth in a number of different sectors because they have a way to get their goods to the customer much quicker. It is not just fulfillment but there will be a wide number of jobs in other businesses created and there will be many jobs (not necessarily Amazon related) that will pay much higher than $15/hr. 

18 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

There are a lot of spinoffs for these jobs. It creates legal jobs, accounting jobs, architectual and enginnering jobs,  and other third party management jobs for the region that will pay much higher rates.

 

In the case of Amazon and other national or international companies that's not going to be the case since their headquarters and back offices are in other states.  I have no doubt that the majority of the accounting, IT, data entry, data analysis, legal, engineering, etc., for the CVG facility is going to occur in Seattle, New York, or the new offices in Virginia and Nashville.  Many of the generic modern warehouses around CVG have no office of any kind other than the warehouse management office. 

 

My company has a small warehouse in Louisville and another in Indianapolis.  Nobody works at those warehouses aside from the warehouse crews.  All of the accounting, legal, sales, web, etc. happens in Cincinnati. 

 

2 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

In the case of Amazon and other national or international companies that's not going to be the case since their headquarters and back offices are in other states.  I have no doubt that the majority of the accounting, IT, data entry, data analysis, legal, engineering, etc., for the CVG facility is going to occur in Seattle, New York, or the new offices in Virginia and Nashville.  Many of the generic modern warehouses around CVG have no office of any kind other than the warehouse management office. 

My company has a small warehouse in Louisville and another in Indianapolis.  Nobody works at those warehouses aside from the warehouse crews.  All of the accounting, legal, sales, web, etc. happens in Cincinnati. 

 

I get that, but there are other developments going on that are going to employ those people. I know a group building a large apartment project there. Now, it may only have 2-3 people on permanent payroll with maybe $150k in annual employee payments on site, but it would provide more work to local attorneys and accountants and possibly allow them to add to their staffs. For example, there are 2000 employees working on a location. This will create certain opportunities for companies like health clinics to provide a corporate "doc in a box clinic" or law firms to get a number of Amazon legal work that has to be done locally (things like workers comp, local real estate issues, local benefits matters) 

There will be other work too.  While are right, the vast majority of the 2000 Amazon jobs are going to be in the $15-$20 /hr range. there will be a number (albeit on the smaller end) in the $30-$45/hr range which are good middle class jobs. You have to figure that will be a small local HR team, some other manger level and professional staff to handle all the employees.  If only 10% are decent paying jobs that is still 200 new jobs that pay in the $60k-$120k range. If say 84.51 said it was creating 200 new jobs that pay in that range, people would be very excited about that.

 

The 2000 jobs are nice, but I think the bigger impact is the additional development and growth it will spur in other companies that want to be close to the hub and the additional auxillery work that many of the professional services firms will realize from those projects, amongst others.

Oh I'm sure there's lots of worker's comp work associated with Amazon warehouses

 

Maybe they should start making 3-wheelers and lawn darts too

On 1/11/2021 at 7:53 PM, jmecklenborg said:

 

It appears that there is space for a 10,000~ foot east/west runway parallel to Aero Way, but why would an additional runway ever be needed? 

 

The plan is for another north-south runway between the 2 on the west side that would connect directly to the Amazon tarmac which can hold up to 100 cargo jets.  This would expedite Amazon takeoffs and landings by avoiding having to wait in line with passenger jets, which is costly.

1 hour ago, thesenator said:

The plan is for another north-south runway between the 2 on the west side that would connect directly to the Amazon tarmac which can hold up to 100 cargo jets.  This would expedite Amazon takeoffs and landings by avoiding having to wait in line with passenger jets, which is costly.

This would absolutely never happen. 

15 minutes ago, richNcincy said:

This would absolutely never happen. 

 

There are already 3x north/south runways.  Couldn't they just take 18R/36L and extend it to an Amazon facility?    With the passenger traffic down 2 runways should be more than enough to take care of the airlines.   

7 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

Oh I'm sure there's lots of worker's comp work associated with Amazon warehouses

 

Maybe they should start making 3-wheelers and lawn darts too

Back when DHL was in Wilmington, they had a workers comp hearing office in Springfield. About 2/3 of the cases in the office came from DHL employees and there were about 6-8 attorneys who filled their docket on DHL work (both plaintiff and defense). There were other employees there that offered support roles to the office (such as hearing officers, etc.). When DHL pulled out and went to Kentucky, they closed the office in Springfield. So, yes, there will be a lot of cases. It is just one small example. 

38 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

There are already 3x north/south runways.  Couldn't they just take 18R/36L and extend it to an Amazon facility?    With the passenger traffic down 2 runways should be more than enough to take care of the airlines.   

This would be much more feasible, although not a necessity. If anything, they will integrate taxiways into the new amazon facilities.

1 hour ago, Cleburger said:

 

There are already 3x north/south runways.  Couldn't they just take 18R/36L and extend it to an Amazon facility?    With the passenger traffic down 2 runways should be more than enough to take care of the airlines.   

That's what I was thinking, especially once Amazon builds a facility in the infield adjacent to that runway. I've flown out of CVG hundreds of times and have only used that runway on a few occasions, it's simply not necessary for their amount of passenger traffic. 

The key is that Amazon wants to control it's flight operations.  Ultimately they plan to takeoff or land a plane every 7-8 minutes on average 24 hours per day.  When you're trying to achieve next day delivery throughout the country, minutes count.  Amazon still has the right to use the other runways, but also plans to have one exclusive for their use to allow waves of jets to takeoff or land.

 

On the jobs front, remember this is an air cargo hub, not just a e-ecommerce sortation center.  A portion of the jobs will be related to flight operations at higher pay rates.  And Amazon has above average pay and benefits for their warehouse workers as well.  These are good jobs, especially for non-college educated workers.

Edited January 13, 20214 yr by thesenator

How many flights could be expected daily from Amazon, once fully operational?
How many cargo flights does DHL have each day?

Same with Fedex?

 

at CVG of course

I think all the jobs and job growth are great and we should have already started planning a new bridge connecting the west side of Cincinnati directly to CVG and I-275 in Kentucky. As well as additional transit links.

33 minutes ago, thesenator said:

On the jobs front, remember this is an air cargo hub, not just a e-ecommerce sortation center.  A portion of the jobs will be related to flight operations at higher pay rates.  And Amazon has above average pay and benefits for their warehouse workers as well.  These are good jobs, especially for non-college educated workers.

100% agree.

2 minutes ago, thebillshark said:

I think all the jobs and job growth are great and we should have already started planning a new bridge connecting the west side of Cincinnati directly to CVG and I-275 in Kentucky. As well as additional transit links.

We are woefully behind on this, and it should be the #1 transportation project in our region.

44 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

How many flights could be expected daily from Amazon, once fully operational?
How many cargo flights does DHL have each day?

Same with Fedex?

 

at CVG of course

 

DHL owns (or did) about 100 jets worldwide.  26 fly in and out of Cincinnati each night.  They have 2 that sit in reserve every night in case there is a mechanical problem with one of the others.  Jets from across North/South America fly to Cincinnati each day after 5pm, then have their cargo transferred to either a Hong Kong or Frankfurt-bound jet between midnight and 8am.  Cargo from Hong Kong and Frankfurt also arrives at CVG in the evening hours and then is transferred to North/South America jets in the middle of the night.  It takes almost 1,000 human beings to accomplish this task every night.  

 

Amazon expects that it will grow its domestic fleet to 100 jets and that most of them will be based out of Cincinnati.  Remember, a domestic jet can easily make 5+ flights to and from CVG every 24 hours so the eventual flight volume could be enormous.  By contrast, the DHL jets only come and go once each day.   

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

DHL owns (or did) about 100 jets worldwide.  26 fly in and out of Cincinnati each night.  They have 2 that sit in reserve every night in case there is a mechanical problem with one of the others.  Jets from across North/South America fly to Cincinnati each day after 5pm, then have their cargo transferred to either a Hong Kong or Frankfurt-bound jet between midnight and 8am.  Cargo from Hong Kong and Frankfurt also arrives at CVG in the evening hours and then is transferred to North/South America jets in the middle of the night.  It takes almost 1,000 human beings to accomplish this task every night.  

 

Amazon expects that it will grow its domestic fleet to 100 jets and that most of them will be based out of Cincinnati.  Remember, a domestic jet can easily make 5+ flights to and from CVG every 24 hours so the eventual flight volume could be enormous.  By contrast, the DHL jets only come and go once each day.   

 

 

 

DHL only has about 26 flights? I figured it would be much more than that. However, DHL is the smallest of the shippers in the US and most of their stuff is global anyway.  Interesting.

 

So with DHL at 25-30 flights

Amazon could have 250-300 flights it seems? 

Fed Ex may have 5-10 flights?

 

Does that sound reasonable or am I underestimating Amazon?

41 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

DHL only has about 26 flights? I figured it would be much more than that. However, DHL is the smallest of the shippers in the US and most of their stuff is global anyway.  Interesting.

 

So with DHL at 25-30 flights

Amazon could have 250-300 flights it seems? 

Fed Ex may have 5-10 flights?

 

Does that sound reasonable or am I underestimating Amazon?

That isn’t correct and seemed very off to me as well.

Info I found:

“CVG now serves as the largest of DHL's three global hubs (The other two beings Leipzig/Halle and Hong Kong) with 84 flights each day to destinations across North America, Europe, Middle East, Asia, and the Pacific.”

 

 

Edited January 13, 20214 yr by 646empire

^ Also...

 

- DHL is known to be the world’s largest logistics company, It delivers over 1.3 billion parcels per year. Its international game is by far the strongest among the big three (including FedEx and UPS).

 

- DHL Express operates more than 260 aircraft with 17 partner airlines on more than 600 daily flights across 220 countries and territories.

 

DHL CVG:

 

https://dhlpro.com/media/37004/dhl-express-usa-overview_en.pdf

 

Also I’m told they are planning a possible expansion at CVG as well

1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

DHL only has about 26 flights? I figured it would be much more than that. However, DHL is the smallest of the shippers in the US and most of their stuff is global anyway.  Interesting.

 

So with DHL at 25-30 flights

 

 

It would be two flights per day for international (one arrival, one departure) but four or more for the domestic cities like Chicago and New York where a single plane can make several round trips.  A single jet could make 2+ RT's from Toronto to Cincinnati in the time it takes two jets to carry the same cargo here from California or Mexico 

 

DHL also flies some international freight between JFK and Frankfurt but JFK doesn't send anything to Hong Kong.  CVG handles 100% to Hong Kong. 

 

One of my former roommates is a data analyst for DHL.  I'd trust info from the guy who actually works with the excel spreadsheets over what they post on their website or advertise to the media.  They also fly cargo on third party jets, not just actual marked DHL jets.    

 

 

17 minutes ago, 646empire said:

Also I’m told they are planning a possible expansion at CVG as well

They snagged up 50 acres directly south of their current operations just prior to Amazon announcing their hub. 

2 hours ago, TheCOV said:

We are woefully behind on this, and it should be the #1 transportation project in our region.

It would take about 10 houses plus the American Legion building on the Ohio side, and about 5 houses and a lot of dynamite on the Kentucky side to get a clone of the Maysville (Harsha) Bridge that cost $26 Million in the year 2000. 

51 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

One of my former roommates is a data analyst for DHL.  I'd trust info from the guy who actually works with the excel spreadsheets over what they post on their website or advertise to the media.  They also fly cargo on third party jets, not just actual marked DHL jets. 

I have known many people who have worked at DHL-CVG and 26 flights per day doesn’t at all sound correct, also I’m not sure why the shipping company would lie on its official public spreadsheet. All the info I’ve researched is consistent in saying there are many more than 26 per day. CVG handles 90% of DHL deliveries to the U.S so 26 flights would be surprising. Maybe someone here can analyze the landing/departure data at the airport. Anyway back to Amazon, it’s seems they may be accelerating the construction timeline for cvg which is super.

Below is a great read I found calling the area the future “Silicon Valley of Logistics”, lol I love it.

 

“Now under construction, the 1.5 Billion dollar hub is a once-in-a-generation project”:

 

https://www.lanereport.com/121443/2020/01/logistics/

 

Edited January 13, 20214 yr by 646empire

New Article just posted:

 

“Air cargo construction is booming, thanks to Amazon”

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2021/01/13/air-cargo-construction-is-booming-thanks-to-amazon.html

31 minutes ago, 646empire said:

I have known many people who have worked at DHL-CVG and 26 flights per day doesn’t at all sound correct,

 

 

I said that they have 26 aircraft involved in the overnight cargo shuffle (as of 3~ years ago, which is I think the last time I talked to the guy about it).  That is 52 flights if each plane only does one RT per 24 hours but several of them make multiple flights per day.  

 

 

33 minutes ago, 646empire said:

 I’m not sure why the shipping company would lie on its official public spreadsheet.

 

 

Amtrak has The Cardinal and other pathetically infrequent trains drawn with equally thick lines as the 5-per-day routes.  Same with LA>Hong Kong on DHL's map.  

 

My company claims to have a Detroit warehouse on its literature.  It's like 5 shelves in some other company's warehouse.  Everyone reading this knows somebody with more stuff in their basement than is currently taking up space in our Detroit "warehouse".  

 

I feel like one of our distributors has to have at least one of those in the East yet doesn't tell us. The main warehouse is in California but they are drop-shipping through Wal-Mart's website daily. If someone in Maine buys one of their widgets does Wal-Mart really want the customer waiting 6 days minimum? There might be one at Rickenbacker where I would want to cash-n-carry but I still have to pay cross-country shipping from CA and wait.

1 hour ago, 646empire said:

New Article just posted:

 

“Air cargo construction is booming, thanks to Amazon”

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2021/01/13/air-cargo-construction-is-booming-thanks-to-amazon.html

 

Just fyi for everyone, that is the same article as the one in the NY Times. The Business Courier just uses NY Times articles sometimes.

25 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Just fyi for everyone, that is the same article as the one in the NY Times. The Business Courier just uses NY Times articles sometimes.

Gotcha, didn’t notice with it being subscription only.

DHL is well over 26 daily flights at CVG. Amazon has over 30 daily flights and DHL has more than them. If I remember correctly there are close to 60 aircraft parking spots on DHL's ramp and it essentially fills up during the DHL sort.

 

In regards to Amazon adding another runway just for them, that's not how aviation works. Putting another runway between 18C/36C and 18R/36L isn't possible. There isn't enough room to add a runway and allow for simultaneous approaches and departures.

 

If a new runway was to be built it would be another east/west one. 3 north/south is plenty. Even the shortest of them can handle narrow body aircraft. They would just need to extend it for the wide bodies.

2 minutes ago, Cincy_Travels said:

DHL is well over 26 daily flights at CVG. Amazon has over 30 daily flights and DHL has more than them. If I remember correctly there are close to 60 aircraft parking spots on DHL's ramp and it essentially fills up during the DHL sort.

 

 

I checked back with the guy I knew who works there and he doesn't work in logistics anymore but he's pretty sure they're up to 40-45 planes from 26 when he was working in that department.  Sorry all my info was out-of-date. 

 

 

 

CVG Airport passenger stats for 2020 have been released, and it's not good:

 

Nov 2020 - 273,102     2019 - 710,622

Dec 2020 - 280,078     2019 - 718,487

 

Total numbers for the year:

2020 Total Passengers - 3,615,139

2019 Total Passengers - 9,103,554

 

That is -60.29% YOY.  The previous low for the airport was in the ball park of 5,000,000, compared to the Delta-hub day's high of nearly 22,000,000.

 

Cargo is a different story:

 

2020 Total Cargo - 1,434,132

2019 Total Cargo - 1,248,779

 

An increase of 14.84% YOY

On 1/20/2021 at 9:28 PM, richNcincy said:

CVG Airport passenger stats for 2020 have been released, and it's not good:

 

Nov 2020 - 273,102     2019 - 710,622

Dec 2020 - 280,078     2019 - 718,487

 

Total numbers for the year:

2020 Total Passengers - 3,615,139

2019 Total Passengers - 9,103,554

 

That is -60.29% YOY.  The previous low for the airport was in the ball park of 5,000,000, compared to the Delta-hub day's high of nearly 22,000,000.

 

Cargo is a different story:

 

2020 Total Cargo - 1,434,132

2019 Total Cargo - 1,248,779

 

An increase of 14.84% YOY

Nationally, TSA screenings were down -62.9% Nov 19vs20 and -62.4% Dec 19vs20, so that's about par for the course. 

 

 

https://www.tsa.gov/coronavirus/passenger-throughput

Sun Country Airlines coming to CVG Airport

 

The newest airline to serve Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport (CVG) is Sun Country Airlines with nonstop service between Cincinnati (CVG) and Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP) beginning May 14, 2021. The service will operate twice a week on Fridays and Sundays.

 

 

Media release from cvgairport.com

15 minutes ago, richNcincy said:

Sun Country Airlines coming to CVG Airport

 

The newest airline to serve Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport (CVG) is Sun Country Airlines with nonstop service between Cincinnati (CVG) and Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP) beginning May 14, 2021. The service will operate twice a week on Fridays and Sundays.

 

 

Media release from cvgairport.com

Because when I think of travelling to Sun Country and my tropical paradise, Minneapolis is the first destination that comes to mind......

 

Or maybe to all the Minnesotan's, Cincinnati is considered a tropical paradise to them??? 

Edited January 25, 20214 yr by Brutus_buckeye

I'm guessing CVG fliers would be able to use Minneapolis as a connection and utilize the rest of their network.  It's the only thing that makes sense for this route. 

 

Here is a look at their new network map:

 

 

I pretty much figured that was the case. I just felt it was a bit ironic that an Airline like Sun Country, designed to send people to Florida and other warm destinations would be flying people from Cincinnati to Minneapolis.  Figured it was for connecting flights of course.

But where in Florida is Sun Country going to get you to, via a connection through MSP, that Allegiant/Southwest/Frontier can't get you to direct? I would never complain about having more options, but this just seems like an odd move for Sun Country.

5 minutes ago, cbussoccer said:

But where in Florida is Sun Country going to get you to, via a connection through MSP, that Allegiant/Southwest/Frontier can't get you to direct? I would never complain about having more options, but this just seems like an odd move for Sun Country.

I dont think it will get many people to Florida from Cincy, but they have a decent network in Mexico and also it may be used for connections to other US destinations to the West

5 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

I dont think it will get many people to Florida from Cincy, but they have a decent network in Mexico and also it may be used for connections to other US destinations to the West

 

Sun Country doesn't operate their Mexico routes daily. That might be different during the summer, but right now their flights to Mexico are mostly 2x weekly, compared to Southwest who is flying their Mexico routes daily with numerous flights each day. Some of the Sun Country flights to Mexico don't even coincide with the two days they are going to fly their CVG route. It just seems like it will be tough to win over people from Delta and Southwest.

 

In terms of going out west, Sun Country doesn't really offer much via a connection through MSP that isn't already a direct flight from CVG on a competing low-cost airline. 

 

Again, competition is never a bad thing, and maybe this is just the first of future additions by Sun Country at CVG, but it just seems very odd from Sun Country's end.

Also Sun Country uses the older Terminal 2 at MSP, along with Southwest.   So if you miss a connection and are stuck there, it's not quite as nice as Terminal 1.  

29 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

Also Sun Country uses the older Terminal 2 at MSP, along with Southwest.   So if you miss a connection and are stuck there, it's not quite as nice as Terminal 1.  

Its been a while since I flew into mSP. I thought you could traverse the terminals there without going in and out of security? It was not easy, but I always thought that was the case?

19 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Its been a while since I flew into mSP. I thought you could traverse the terminals there without going in and out of security? It was not easy, but I always thought that was the case?

If it is it's a train trip around the field as they are located on opposite sides.   

The name "Sun Country" carries as much indication of geographical service area as "Southwest" does, nowadays.

 

The airline was started as a charter airline shuttling Minnesotans to warm weather destinations. They grew into a scheduled carrier and garnered a large following in Minneapolis, so much so that they were able to stave off numerous attempts by Northwest to undercut and undermine their services. They recently morphed into a ultra low cost carrier, akin to Spirit, and have since been playing around heavily with their route network.

 

For those unfamiliar, Sun Country operates out of the Humphrey Terminal (Terminal 2) in MSP, along with Southwest, jetBlue, and other low cost airlines. The Lindbergh Terminal (Terminal 1) houses Delta and the larger network carriers. One can move freely among the 4 concourses in the Lindbergh Terminal but, as mentioned, there is no ability to transfer between terminals on the sterile side. Inter-terminal transportation is provided by shuttle vans or by taking the Metro light rail between terminals. 

 

I'm somewhat surprised Sun Country decided to give CVG-MSP a shot, considering Delta's dominance and Frontier's low-cost presence. But as mentioned, this might have more to do with SY's sub-fleet operating on behalf of Amazon and a way for Sun Country to capitalize on that business. Either way, always good to have more flight options, especially in the current travel environment.

1 hour ago, CMHOhio said:

I'm somewhat surprised Sun Country decided to give CVG-MSP a shot, considering Delta's dominance and Frontier's low-cost presence. But as mentioned, this might have more to do with SY's sub-fleet operating on behalf of Amazon and a way for Sun Country to capitalize on that business. Either way, always good to have more flight options, especially in the current travel environment.

I read it has a ton to do with the fact that Sun Country flies cargo for Amazon too. Pretty much will bake in profitability for them on the route. I would not be surprised to see the amount of flights expanded given the fact they fly a ton of cargo too. 

We talk a lot about light rail to the airport but what about other types of rail links?  It looks like most of the existing tracks in Kentucky don’t point towards the airport. Does it have a rail link of any sort? Would it benefit from some kind of freight link? What about an intercity passenger rail connection like Amtrak?  Does suburban sprawl eliminate the possibility for this? 

I think the closest rail line to the airport would be the line that runs through Erlanger, Crescent Springs, and Ludlow before crossing the river. 

1 hour ago, thebillshark said:

We talk a lot about light rail to the airport but what about other types of rail links?  It looks like most of the existing tracks in Kentucky don’t point towards the airport. Does it have a rail link of any sort? Would it benefit from some kind of freight link? What about an intercity passenger rail connection like Amtrak?  Does suburban sprawl eliminate the possibility for this? 

 

It's definitely not possible to integrate high-volume commuter rail or intercity passenger rail with existing freight traffic over either the Southern or C&O bridges.  The freight trains are as relentless as they are slow on each bridge.  The Southern's immediate climb up to Erlanger means the trains go super-slow for several miles. 

 

There is space to build third or fourth tracks along either southbound rail corridor in Kentucky (and in fact it's easy to see that the corridor in Covington was once 3-4-5 tracks), but the capacity won't really be improved until there is a separate bridge for rail and a completely separate routing on the Cincinnati side. 

 

The piers that used to connect CUT with the Southern RR bridge are still there but to access them from the existing Amtrak platform any train would have to cross over the approach to *both* bridges, which would be a chronic scheduling nightmare. 

 

 

 

 

New GA facility at KCVG adds Customs clearance

 

The Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport (KCVG) is now a direct international destination for general aviation aircraft thanks to the addition of on-demand, onsite U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) clearance at Wheels Up Jet Center, an FBO at the airport.

 

https://generalaviationnews.com/2021/02/03/new-ga-facility-at-kcvg-adds-customs-clearance/?utm_source=TPOA&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20210204

When did they start calling it KCVG?