How much of this parking would be for "peak periods" such as weekend evenings? If the answer is 500 to 1000 spaces, then that could be absorbed by a partnership between the casino and the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad to provide park-n-ride service from Rockside Road, or from as far away as Akron or Canton. CVSR could also start the "casino experience" with a wine train, Ales on Rails and other thematic train services to/from the casino regardless of the weather. The point is, a single CVSR train can carry 600 people, taking 500 cars off the road and reduce the need for as much parking. Casinos elsewhere are getting into this kind of experience, and Cleveland's casino has a great opportunity available with the tracks coming right up to its back door. PM me if you want to learn more....

 

Unlike the two train services show at bottom, which travel hundreds of miles each way and are almost wholly dependent on the casinos, Cleveland's 8-mile extension of existing CVSR train services would be used by people going to sporting events, air shows, film festivals, shopping, commuting to work or school, and venturing into the national park for school-district educational programs, for convention side-trips or to take their bicycles on the Towpath Trail. But arriving/departing passengers could be routed through the casino to get into Tower City. These pictures show what could be arriving at a casino station....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is the casino-sponsored train service to Atlantic City:

 

 

 

 

 

Plus a new train to Las Vegas from LA:

 

 

 

The rapid is not convenient for everyone though. But I think there is plenty parking available

 

 

True, for the people in the southern part of the county it is not. But to the 10's of thousands of people in Lakewood, RR, Westlake, Parma, Brookpark and the other areas close to the rapid it is, and that should ease the need for an outstanding amount of parking.

 

From Westlake to the closet rapid transit station is 17 minutes. Then you wait who knows how long for the train. Then you take a 17 minute ride downtown. Or you could take a 23 minute drive. Im definitely pro transit but in this case, the rapid does not serve most people.  I got these times from googlemaps.

The rapid is not convenient for everyone though. But I think there is plenty parking available

 

 

True, for the people in the southern part of the county it is not. But to the 10's of thousands of people in Lakewood, RR, Westlake, Parma, Brookpark and the other areas close to the rapid it is, and that should ease the need for an outstanding amount of parking.

 

From Westlake to the closet rapid transit station is 17 minutes. Then you wait who knows how long for the train. Then you take a 17 minute ride downtown. Or you could take a 23 minute drive. Im definitely pro transit but in this case, the rapid does not serve most people.  I got these times from googlemaps.

 

The rapid comes every 20 minutes, and it takes just about 10 minutes to get from 117th to tower city. It could easily be timed so you get at the rapid when the train is about to arrive. I take the rapid all the time and work around the schedule in order to save on natural resources and for the headache free commute. I do believe that the rail needs to be extended into the westlake/bay area and down into the Independence area, ODOT owns this state though and they are 100% pro car. I go out of my way to use public transit, others can do the same.

Yes people like us are more likely to do so, but you still have to be realistic. The majority of people wont want go out their way and spend more time, and possibly(if packed car) more money using the rapid. And eastside suburbs are screwed even worse.

The best way to expand Rapid use is to expand the Rapid.  If the casino really takes off, rail expansions could move closer to getting funded and approved.  As it stands the Rapids only serve a small segment of the county in any practical meaningful way.

Yeah, but the Rapid doesn't have plush seating, lounge cars and bars that serve beer, wine and fine dinners to take you to the casino and back home to/from as far away as Canton in all kinds of weather as CVSR does -- or could. :-D

That other part about is that four people can hop in a car and spend about $8 to park downtown.  Those same people purchasing all day RTA passes adds up to $20.  Doesn't make sense. 

 

Just so you know...I'd be one of the people that would rather spend the extra cheese to take the hassle free rapid.

If there's four people traveling together, driving makes perfect sense. But the average is 1.2 people per car. And where can you park for $8 downtown on weekend evenings? It's nice to have a mix of options, rather than rely entirely on parking. And CVSR could add one more really cool option.

I agree about the 4 people in the car, it makes it more worth while and more environmentally sound. As for parking for $8, if our casino parking garage is like the ones I've been to all over the country, then it will be free. But sometimes money isn't the most important thing. We spend more money all the time to take public transportation, versus driving, because we know that it's the right thing to do.

Have the east 9th garages stay open and run shuttles from the garages to the casino.

Then you wait who knows how long for the train.

 

I may be in luck here since the Green Rd. stop is closest to my house.  And, at the end/start of the line, RTA always tends to hit that stop as scheduled, so all I have to do is look at the RTA website and plan accordingly.  Do others not have any luck doing this?

 

But I agree with you, parking is going to have to be provided in abundance.  All we can hope for is that the planning is done right.

 

I like this....

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=embed&hl=en&geocode=&q=Charlotte,+NC&aq=0&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=57.118084,71.982422&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Charlotte,+Mecklenburg,+North+Carolina&layer=c&cbll=35.227228,-80.839027&panoid=4X9cKpWtkADlvVNLVJbfKw&cbp=13,344.51,,0,0&ll=35.217313,-80.838861&spn=0.022018,0.048237&z=14&output=svembed

 

I don't know how many casinos ya'all have been to, especially of the midwestern variety, but the people inside them are 99% of the non-public transit using variety.

I don't know how many casinos ya'all have been to, especially of the midwestern variety, but the people inside them are 99% of the non-public transit using variety.

 

I've been to casinos in nearly every state in the country and you are 100% right. BUT, it doesn't mean that we can't make public transit for all the locals the easier, more convenient route to take.

I don't know how many casinos ya'all have been to, especially of the midwestern variety, but the people inside them are 99% of the non-public transit using variety.

 

I've been to casinos in nearly every state in the country and you are 100% right. BUT, it doesn't mean that we can't make public transit for all the locals the easier, more convenient route to take.

 

 

The only people taking the Rapid to the casino are those least able to afford the casino--the urban poor seeking quick riches in the confines of the old Higbee building.  Can't wait for the glitz and glamor!

I don't know how many casinos ya'all have been to, especially of the midwestern variety, but the people inside them are 99% of the non-public transit using variety.

 

I've been to casinos in nearly every state in the country and you are 100% right. BUT, it doesn't mean that we can't make public transit for all the locals the easier, more convenient route to take.

 

 

The only people taking the Rapid to the casino are those least able to afford the casino--the urban poor seeking quick riches in the confines of the old Higbee building.  Can't wait for the glitz and glamor!

 

Not true, I can afford an evening at the casino and I'll be taking the rapid. Wouldn't think of driving.

I don't know how many casinos ya'all have been to, especially of the midwestern variety, but the people inside them are 99% of the non-public transit using variety.

 

I've been to casinos in nearly every state in the country and you are 100% right. BUT, it doesn't mean that we can't make public transit for all the locals the easier, more convenient route to take.

 

 

The only people taking the Rapid to the casino are those least able to afford the casino--the urban poor seeking quick riches in the confines of the old Higbee building.  Can't wait for the glitz and glamor!

 

Not true, I can afford an evening at the casino and I'll be taking the rapid. Wouldn't think of driving.

 

Me too Heat.....lets take the rapid together brother!

 

 

Me too Heat.....lets take the rapid together brother!

 

OK two out of thousands....trust me I've been to most every casino in America for my job.  Your average casino goer isn't hopping a train.  Let alone making the massive walk from downstairs at Tower City to the Higbee building.  Dan Gilbert wants valet parking so they don't have to think after the long drive from Medina.  Toss the keys to the Equinox and hit the tables!

 

 

Me too Heat.....lets take the rapid together brother!

 

OK two out of thousands....trust me I've been to most every casino in America for my job.  Your average casino goer isn't hopping a train.  Let alone making the massive walk from downstairs at Tower City to the Higbee building.  Dan Gilbert wants valet parking so they don't have to think after the long drive from Medina.  Toss the keys to the Equinox and hit the tables!

 

Unfortunately you're all too correct. I'll end my part at this. I'm not denying any of what you're saying, I'm just calling for them to make it just as easy, if not easier to take public transport then to drive.

I don't know how many casinos ya'all have been to, especially of the midwestern variety, but the people inside them are 99% of the non-public transit using variety.

 

I've been to casinos in nearly every state in the country and you are 100% right. BUT, it doesn't mean that we can't make public transit for all the locals the easier, more convenient route to take.

 

 

The only people taking the Rapid to the casino are those least able to afford the casino--the urban poor seeking quick riches in the confines of the old Higbee building.  Can't wait for the glitz and glamor!

 

Not true, I can afford an evening at the casino and I'll be taking the rapid. Wouldn't think of driving.

 

Me too Heat.....lets take the rapid together brother!

 

Considering that I'm the only gambler out of any my friends, and my fiance hates going to casinos, I may have to take you up on that. LOL

OK two out of thousands....trust me I've been to most every casino in America for my job.  Your average casino goer isn't hopping a train.  Let alone making the massive walk from downstairs at Tower City to the Higbee building.  Dan Gilbert wants valet parking so they don't have to think after the long drive from Medina.  Toss the keys to the Equinox and hit the tables!

 

^

How many casino's across the country have you been to that are located in the heart of a city w/direct access to rail? 

OK two out of thousands....trust me I've been to most every casino in America for my job.  Your average casino goer isn't hopping a train.  Let alone making the massive walk from downstairs at Tower City to the Higbee building.  Dan Gilbert wants valet parking so they don't have to think after the long drive from Medina.  Toss the keys to the Equinox and hit the tables!

 

^

How many casino's across the country have you been to that are located in the heart of a city w/direct access to rail? 

 

Detroit is about the closest to that--but the point is irrelevant.  I can tell you that 99% of Casino goers wouldn't use it anyway.  If you put a casino in Midtown Manhattan--well yes you'd probably get some rail traffic.  But not in Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Detroit, New Orleans, etc....

We could just SAY that the Casino is located at the West Park Rapid and that the Rapid is just a Monorail that connects the parking lot to the Casino!

Yes im sure people in Mentor are going to give up a 30 minute drive downtown because they rather drive 28 minutes to the Windermere station, wait for a train, and then take a 20 minute train ride downtown. Face it, the rapid will work for some, but for the majority of the casino goers, it is not currently a reasonable option.

I don't think it's worth debating--and I'm sure Dan Gilbert would agree.  Going back to the earlier discussion, I wouldn't focus on it as a marketing tool in his idea to work with the Ritz and Tower City. 

 

Now for CLE+ or similar organizations it could make sense for the airport access, but not sure Gilbert is focusing on attracting out-of-towners just yet.

^Didn't Gilbert spend 20mil to extend light rail in downtown Det?  You're right it's not worth debating. However, I don't think you know what Gilbert would agree or disagree on. 

Yes im sure people in Mentor are going to give up a 30 minute drive downtown because they rather drive 28 minutes to the Windermere station, wait for a train, and then take a 20 minute train ride downtown. Face it, the rapid will work for some, but for the majority of the casino goers, it is not currently a reasonable option.

 

When I was in elementary school I lived in Mentor.  Sometimes when we'd go downtown, we'd drive down to Shaker and Green and ride in from there.

Yes im sure people in Mentor are going to give up a 30 minute drive downtown because they rather drive 28 minutes to the Windermere station, wait for a train, and then take a 20 minute train ride downtown. Face it, the rapid will work for some, but for the majority of the casino goers, it is not currently a reasonable option.

 

You think people from Mentor would use the Windermere station......  :-o

Yes im sure people in Mentor are going to give up a 30 minute drive downtown because they rather drive 28 minutes to the Windermere station, wait for a train, and then take a 20 minute train ride downtown. Face it, the rapid will work for some, but for the majority of the casino goers, it is not currently a reasonable option.

 

You think people from Mentor would use the Windermere station......  :-o

 

LOL...no but I can forsee people from Mentor (and other sites in Lake County) using Laketran to get down there, particularly if Laketran partners up with the Casino to set up special casino flyers. Then the folks from the US Budget thread can get downtown and spend all that money they're no longer sending to the US Gubment.

Its about the same distance to the green station

The Rapid won't work for a lot of people, but will for many... I'm blessed to own property within walking distance of the Blue/Green lines.  The Heights and Chagrin Valley folks, even across the Cuyahoga county line, often drive into the Green Rd. or Van Aken terminals and park at the free lots.  Many from the West/Southwest drive in to one of the Red Line lots near freeway exits... I know; I have a buddy w/ Browns season tics who drives up I-71 from Columbus for home games; gets off, parks at Puritas/W.150 and Rapids into games... wouldn't have it any other way... and he's got lots of company, too... with the casino, people (hopefully) will, after gambling and checking out the on-site eateries and other activies, will venture around to E. 4th St, the Warehouse Dist; Playhouse Sq; etc... All are w/in easy walking distance; can't see folks yanking their cars from expensive lots to take them to other expensive lots around downtown, just for the "convenience" of having their 4-wheels.... at the moment, no other casino comes to mind that is similarly situated to what Horseshoe will be -- directly tied into a major transit rail-head.  Trust me, you're going to see a signiicant bump up in RTA rail usage once the casino (temporary then permanent) are built.

The Rapid won't work for a lot of people, but will for many... I'm blessed to own property within walking distance of the Blue/Green lines.  The Heights and Chagrin Valley folks, even across the Cuyahoga county line, often drive into the Green Rd. or Van Aken terminals and park at the free lots.  Many from the West/Southwest drive in to one of the Red Line lots near freeway exits... I know; I have a buddy w/ Browns season tics who drives up I-71 from Columbus for home games; gets off, parks at Puritas/W.150 and Rapids into games... wouldn't have it any other way... and he's got lots of company, too... with the casino, people (hopefully) will, after gambling and checking out the on-site eateries and other activies, will venture around to E. 4th St, the Warehouse Dist; Playhouse Sq; etc... All are w/in easy walking distance; can't see folks yanking their cars from expensive lots to take them to other expensive lots around downtown, just for the "convenience" of having their 4-wheels.... at the moment, no other casino comes to mind that is similarly situated to what Horseshoe will be -- directly tied into a major transit rail-head.  Trust me, you're going to see a signiicant bump up in RTA rail usage once the casino (temporary then permanent) are built.

 

I also can walk to the Shaker Rapid.  However, one downside to taking it downtown for entertainment is that it stop running just after midnight, so you have to be really conscious about how late you're staying out, which can really defeat the purpose of going out to just have fun.  They really need to run the rapid until about 2:30 on weekends at least.  I know a bunch of JCU students would use it much more as well if that were the case (CWRU students are lucky to now have the HealthLine to use late at night).

^ Yeah midnight wont work for a lot of people. They definitely need to stay open later on the weekends if they get a good Casino crowd.

Yes people like us are more likely to do so, but you still have to be realistic. The majority of people wont want go out their way and spend more time, and possibly(if packed car) more money using the rapid. And eastside suburbs are screwed even worse.

 

 

I often wonder about this.  I've got to say, while I'm efficient and don't like to waste time, I've found that by having a book, magazine, or iPod on me at all times I end up getting much more out of my time regardless of waiting.  Sitting waiting for (and riding on) a train gives me a chance to catch up on other things. 

 

I'm all for the gung-ho rushing around American way of getting things done.  But a 20 min drive to see the Indians v. a 35 minute ride with book time/podcast time seems like an unfair battle (in favor or RTA).  JMHO

That's a very GenY way of thinking, Burnham!

Another issue is that one car can haul your whole group while transit charges by the head.  The bigger the group, the bigger the disincentive.  Maybe RTA could set up some kind of "group night out" fare packages.

 

And yeah the midnight shutdown makes our trains practically useless for those interested in downtown nightlife and events.

I don't know if it would be the best thing to have a bunch of drunk 20 somethings riding the train back to the suburbs at 2:30am.  That said, it is certainly better than them driving their cars. 

I don't know if it would be the best thing to have a bunch of drunk 20 somethings riding the train back to the suburbs at 2:30am.  That said, it is certainly better than them driving their cars. 

 

While I'm sure we could come up with 1 or 2 reasons for this, I think this is exactly what we want.  Because, one, the reason you specifically site (we don't want them driving!) and two, this means they can frequent downtown safely and easily.  The ride from Tower City to, say, Shaker Square is a little long for drunk riding, but doable.

 

And yes, I speak from experience.  Riding home from the bars at 2am saves lives, funds rail, and supports nightlife across a broader area.  (This is also the argument in favor of a downtown loop!)

The ride from Tower City to, say, Shaker Square is a little long for drunk riding, but doable.

 

A lot of people take taxi rides that are just as long if not longer.

The ride from Tower City to, say, Shaker Square is a little long for drunk riding, but doable.

 

I never had a problem with it, unless I missed the last train and had to walk all the way up Fairhill from the Healthline.  That sobered me up real good.

I also can walk to the Shaker Rapid.  However, one downside to taking it downtown for entertainment is that it stop running just after midnight, so you have to be really conscious about how late you're staying out, which can really defeat the purpose of going out to just have fun.  They really need to run the rapid until about 2:30 on weekends at least.  I know a bunch of JCU students would use it much more as well if that were the case (CWRU students are lucky to now have the HealthLine to use late at night).

 

 

Amen Jeff! RTA argues vociferously that they can't add a few more 1/2 hourly trains to, at the very least, 2-2:15a on Friday and Saturday nights.  As popular as downtown is on weekends and as well as the Rapid serves it, you'd think it'd be a no brainer.  I know the agency is struggling financially... maybe they could apply for a special FTA grant for this service (esp in keeping potentially drunk drivers off the road and onto trains)... it would certainly would be worth it.

Not to get too political, but the 302b allocations for the Federal Transportation Appropriations Subcommittee Bill (the funding bill for DOT) is horrible this year, and won't be getting better in the future.

 

Between that an Kasich's cuts RTA is going to need to find internal measures for raising funds.

 

And to appease the moderators....

 

 

Lack of federal funds -> RTA is in trouble -> Increased likelihood that the Casino will remain a mostly car centric accessible attraction.

 

Too many factors seem to pull us away from what most UO users would consider common "urban" sense.

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2011/06/a_new_proposal_from_ka_archite.html

 

A new analysis from KA Architects tries to close the door on saving the Columbia Building as part of a casino visitor center

 

Published: Wednesday, June 08, 2011, 4:10 PM    Updated: Wednesday, June 08, 2011, 4:24 PM

Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer

 

A new design analysis from KA Architects of Cleveland is part of an effort to show how the landmark Columbia Building in the Gateway neighborhood should be demolished to make way for a visitor center for the new Rock Gaming LLC casino in the nearby Higbee Building.

 

The analysis is disappointing, but predictable.

 

A pivotal vote on the fate of the visitor center and the Columbia Building is scheduled for Thursday at the third meeting of the Cleveland Landmarks Commission on the topic. The meeting is scheduled for 9 a.m. in Room 514 at Cleveland City Hall.

Litt hits the nail right on the head.

Cute idea to have the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad provide service to the casino, but seriously a non-starter as a solution to parking needs.  It would be a gimmic and that's it.  Parking would need to be up close for 99.9% of patrons.

One size does not fit all. Neither parking, nor CVSR, nor RTA, nor Jet Express do it. Just because one mode doesn't solve all your needs doesn't mean it should be rejected. Sadly, many cannot accept global solutions because they lack the imagination to see the benefit.

 

Taking CVSR to the casino is only a part of the vision. Taking CVSR as part of the casino experience is another part. Taking CVSR as part of your weekend entertainment is another part. Taking CVSR to the casino station shared by the Jet Express to travel from Akron or Canton to the Lake Erie Islands is another. Starting to get the big picture?

 

And I'm not sure where you picture the CVSR station would be, but it would likely be in the basement of the casino -- that's even closer than the so-called Casino Welcome Center.

 

Perhaps someday after the National Park System gets past the current federal budget mess, CVSR will be extended north to downtown Cleveland to serve multiple users -- not just casino visitors.

Now here's an idea--we push for an amendment to allow slots ON the CVSR train and have (I'm speculating here) the nation's only gambling train.  The casino-goers from the south can continue to feed the slots on the way back down to Akron.  Win-win (at least for the house).