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Will you vote yes or no for issue 3? please vote don't reply

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And what is Issue 3, and for what region?

please vote don't reply

I'd rather reply and not vote.

Wait, why are you trying to keep me from replying?

Are you trying to silence my opinion?

Are you trying to keep me down?

Are you trying to censor me?

I take issue with this censorship!

Down with silence!

Power to the people!

Freedom!

Does anyone know where I left my crazy pills this morning?

Fraud investigation continues on casino ballot issue

 

FieldWorks, a Washington, D.C.-based political organization that was hired by those advocating for a casino in Ohio, has resigned from the Ohio Jobs and Growth Campaign. The resignation comes during a Hamilton County grand jury investigation into absentee ballot fraud.

 

The Ohio Jobs and Growth Committee had hired FieldWorks to campaign and canvass Ohio voters for Issue 3, which would allow a casino in each of Ohio's largest cities: Cincinnati, Columbus, Cleveland and Toledo.

 

Click through to read the remainder.

 

So in summary tax revenue of only 33% is worse than no tax revenue, 19,000 temporary construction jobs is worse than 0 new jobs, $200 million in additional school revenue - whether its only a 3% increase in funding or not - is worse than $0 additional revenue, the fact that private developers stand to make money of the development is terrible, and the money Ohioans spend out of state on gambling isn't really that much. 

 

Issue 3 will only create low paying jobs and foster a litany of social ills that are not currently present. 

 

(And there's also 0 chance it will spurn spin off development and/or bring new audiences to urban areas)

 

Got it.

 

 

^^i didn't know Dan Gilbert was involved...Go MSU grad!

 

^when they say that schools will get X% of the money...that just means that they'll use that money to give it to the schools, not that the schools will actually get anything extra...the State just won't pay out as much from the general fund.  It likely won't even shield the schools from future cuts.  They'll just become dependent on that revenue stream.

 

I get sort of annoyed with all the "lotto/casino money goes to schools" stuff...while it's sort of true, it certainly doesn't tell the whole story.

A debate on the issue is more than acceptable, but I will not tolerate personal attacks.

Gilbert is pushing Yes on 3 hard at the Q tonight.  Tons of ads during the timeouts and intermissions. 

 

http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2009/10/post_4.html

 

Read the PD link for the honest answers to most of the questions swirling around issue 3.  Don't base your decision on an editorial...

 

I would like to highlight one of the facts.

 

Q. The casino tax rate is 33 percent. How does that compare to other states?

 

A. The tax rate would rank fourth-highest out of 12 states with commercial casinos.

Read the PD link for the honest answers to most of the questions swirling around issue 3.  Don't base your decision on an editorial...

 

I would like to highlight one of the facts.

 

The editorial summarized my opinions, it didn't create them.

 

I have heard contrary "facts" regarding the tax rate comparison to other states. I have no intention of believing the Plain Dealer, which has come out in favor of the issue. Regardless, it is irrelevent to my personal decision. Creating a monopoly in our state constitution doesn't work for me, no matter how desparate some communities seem to think they are. We can do better in Ohio. I wish Strickland would put together a state-initiated model, rather than just fight against these sneaky private casino attempts.

I have no problems with casinos and would not oppose one in Cleveland, but i am voting No on this issue.  It truly is just a plan to create a monopoly right in the constitution.  And it would eliminate things like the Charity Poker Festival in downtown Cleveland.  Many schools and non-profits benefit from that.

I have problems with casinos and would not oppose one in Cleveland, but i am voting No on this issue.  It truly is just a plan to create a monopoly right in the constitution.  And it would eliminate things like the Charity Poker Festival in downtown Cleveland.  Many schools and non-profits benefit from that.

 

IIRC, there is a clause, HOWEVER, that clause is limited to NEW forms of gambling, not existing events.

 

Even with the clause casinos would most likely not ask the churchs to stop.  It would be a PR nightmare and then become a moral battle between the church and the casinos.

a moral battle between the church and the casinos.

 

Now that would be a fight that I would pay to see!

^Have you not seen the new Now on 3 ads that started airing Monday? "The Devil is in the details" with a big red devil on your tv screen. Watch your local evening news and you'll see the battle for free!

"It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton

And it would eliminate things like the Charity Poker Festival in downtown Cleveland. 

 

Reference?  There is nothing in the language that would eliminate charity poker nights or church bingos.  As MTS said it would be an absolute PR nightmare to even hint at stopping charity poker events or church events because it takes away from the casino business.  Hell, maybe the casino will host charity events and give back to the community!  There's a nice twist to it!

A few point on issue 3... I am not against aambling, I am not ever going to go a casino, if built, its just not my thing.  I will say that casino's are a voluntary tax, in exchange they give you entertainment.  If its your thing then fine... not for me.  I have spent a few short minutes playing slots in niagara, and did not find it to be much fun... I even came out ahead.

 

Having said all that  here are my thought in random bullet points as I think of them...

 

- strange the way the anti 3 crowd is using a devil all over the screen.  If they were not church backed, then it would be a huge uproar and lots of complaints.

 

- the anti 3 crowd is using "hair splitting" political tactics to twist the words into whatever order they want.  You have to listen closly to the qualifying words to have their sentences be true.. for example, they say that "there will never be 34,000 jobs AT ONE TIME."  Well yea, I hope the guy running the electricity and the black jack dealer are not both working at the same time... they don't dispute the number of jobs, they just say it is evil since the perm jobs and the construction workers will not be working at the same time.

 

- another picky political type tactic... they could bring in out of state workers.  There are no guarantees for ohio preferential hiring... well there never are.  And in a state that is rapidly losing population, if they want to truck in 34,000 new taxpayers, that would be o.k. with me.

 

- the cash gambling issue... the issue states that taxes will be charged whenever someone converts the credits, tokens, chip, or vouchers into regular currency (aka they cash out).  There will be no cash betting in a modern casino.  The commercial shows someone putting money into a machine.  True money goes in, but what comes out... wait, wait... yea chips, or a paper voucher.  Nice half truth from them right.

 

- and to the person above who said that the money would simply push out or replace existing funds, and not actually improve anything for the schools... well, i had the same worry.  However in the actual text of the issue it says "Provide that tax collection. and distributions to school districts and local governments, under this Amendment, are intended to supplement, not supplant, any funding obligations of the state."  You want to talk about half truths and twisted logic.  This means that the casino CANNOT develop into a situation where the communities could lower our regular taxes due to the new funding sources.

 

I'll vote for it, because in the end it will not hurt.  I also don't care if the developers are making money on the project, good for them.  People have to get back to the reality that profit is good.  It is why most people get out of bed in the morning.

- strange the way the anti 3 crowd is using a devil all over the screen. If they were not church backed, then it would be a huge uproar and lots of complaints.

 

Also strange that much of the funding for the anti-issue 3 campaign is coming from Jeff Jacobs....  an owner of horse racing tracks and casino's in other states...  If he wants to argue the nature of how it is being proposed and the "monopoly" it creates, thats one thing, but the campaign loses additional credibility when the funding for commercials telling why casino's are bad is coming from a casino owner that didnt get his way. 

I will be voting against issue 3...not because i dislike the casinos or think they're necessarily a bad thing, but this is not the right way of putting them in.

 

I'm really annoyed with the ads we're seeing down here.  I haven't seen the "devil in the details" ad, but the one that slams Dan Gilbert and says he was arrested for running an illegal gambling operation is pretty petty (it happened in college or something...a long time ago) and talking about Dennis Archer as a political insider and all this.  It's just a s***ty campaign and i really don't like it.

I don't like the method being used to bring casinos here, but sometimes the ends justify the means.  That is what I am banking on and why I am voting yes on Issue 3.  Hell, it is not like we didn't already pimp our state constitution a few years back with the gay marriage ban.  If Ohio is going to allow a mob mentality to overtake our representative form of government, then we might as well pass this issue.

I'm not much of a 'the ends justify the means' type person...especially if the 'means' remove the constitutionally granted power of the legislature.

 

I also don't like the monopoly that it is granting.  Didn't we just vote down casinos last year and now we're supposed to pass it?

 

I don't have anything against Casinos...but, i really don't think they'll be nearly as successful as proponents say.  If we really want to get those jobs going why not fix our infrastructure some more?

I'm not much of a 'the ends justify the means' type person...especially if the 'means' remove the constitutionally granted power of the legislature.

 

I also don't like the monopoly that it is granting. Didn't we just vote down casinos last year and now we're supposed to pass it?

 

I don't have anything against Casinos...but, i really don't think they'll be nearly as successful as proponents say. If we really want to get those jobs going why not fix our infrastructure some more?

 

I agree, I'm not happy about the amending of the constitution, but that same monopoly exists in other states.  The sites were picked, and the company that won had a monopoly.  The casino we voted down last time was for the single one and only one in Wilmington which really didn't help anyone.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by successful, I think if they keep some of that gambling money within the state, and bring in some out of state money they will not fail.  I think they can only BE successful.

 

As for your final point, what does having the casino issue pass, and casinos opening, have to do with our ability to fix our infrastructure?  Why would we still not be able to do that?  We (I assume you mean the local/state governments), are not paying anything for the casinos. 

I personally like the restrictive language of the amendment.  If it was a "We're going to let x amount of casinos to be built somewhere in Ohio" I wouldn't even consider voting yes.

You're right, as a government we won't be giving any money to build these casinos and my stream of consciousness led me to write it that way.  I was more saying that if that's the goal here and the big aim that needs to be done then the government could use our tax dollars to pay for some things that are beneficial to all citizens.

 

Just because the same monopoly exists in other states doesn't mean it's right.  Besides, who needs a lousy Penn National casino?  If you want a good casino get MGM or one of the companies that knows how to do it right. (i'd be much more for these casinos if they'd allow sports betting.)

 

Casino revenues will probably be decent in the first few years and then they will trail off.  These casinos will never be a destination bringing more tax dollars into the state, not when every other state already has casinos.  I read an interesting article about these revenues and the saturation of the market in Esquire about a month ago.  It addressed these points pretty decently.

 

I don't like the fact that the people that will directly benefit from this passing are the ones that wrote the damn thing.  I mean, if you let me choose my own tax rate and all those other things, then heck yeah...i'll take that.  Maybe i'm misinformed about this, but that's how i'm seeing it.

The guy running the Nautica poker said they will have to shut down if this passes.  I assume he knows something about the new rules.

I'm guessing that the guy running the poker would shut down due to inability to compete, not due to regulations.

- and to the person above who said that the money would simply push out or replace existing funds, and not actually improve anything for the schools... well, i had the same worry. However in the actual text of the issue it says "Provide that tax collection. and distributions to school districts and local governments, under this Amendment, are intended to supplement, not supplant, any funding obligations of the state." You want to talk about half truths and twisted logic. This means that the casino CANNOT develop into a situation where the communities could lower our regular taxes due to the new funding sources.
How is that even enforceable or proveable?  They simply stop increasing funding to schools as revenues from casinos come in.  Have you seen how govermment works?  The "funding obligations of the state" are very easily adjusted.

Quite simply, put an Ohio legislature written proposal on the ballot with a set number of licenses, vote on it, then put the licenses up for bid.  That I would vote for.

The guy running the Nautica poker said they will have to shut down if this passes.  I [glow=red,2,300]assume [/glow] he knows something about the new rules.

 

Key word!  Instead of finding out for yourself, you'll just go with what he says?  I'm trying to sell bridge over the cuyahoga river......

:roll: :roll:

 

I'm guessing that the guy running the poker would shut down due to inability to compete, not due to regulations.

Pretty much.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The guy running the Nautica poker said they will have to shut down if this passes.  I assume he knows something about the new rules.

 

Well that would be Jeff Jacobs. 

 

"Also strange that much of the funding for the anti-issue 3 campaign is coming from Jeff Jacobs....  an owner of horse racing tracks and casino's in other states...  If he wants to argue the nature of how it is being proposed and the "monopoly" it creates, thats one thing, but the campaign loses additional credibility when the funding for commercials telling why casino's are bad is coming from a casino owner that didnt get his way."

 

I would be good to have some clarification on this since others are saying the language is that it wouldnt affect established "charity poker events"   

Quite simply, put an Ohio legislature written proposal on the ballot with a set number of licenses, vote on it, then put the licenses up for bid.  That I would vote for.

Quite simply, put an Ohio legislature written proposal on the ballot with a set number of licenses, vote on it, then put the licenses up for bid.  That I would vote for.

I agree with you entirely.

The guy running the Nautica poker said they will have to shut down if this passes.  I [glow=red,2,300]assume [/glow] he knows something about the new rules.

Key word!  Instead of finding out for yourself, you'll just go with what he says?  I'm trying to sell bridge over the cuyahoga river......

:roll: :roll:

I'm guessing that the guy running the poker would shut down due to inability to compete, not due to regulations.

Pretty much.

 

Yeah, he realizes the $10-$20 hourly seat fee they charge is going to get crushed by the poker room in the Casino...of course he's against it.

An excellent run-down of all of the issues during this election:

Your choice, Your vote

 

Be informed, be educated, vote for what you believe in.

How desperate Ohio must be. Sad.

An excellent run-down of all of the issues during this election:

Your choice, Your vote

 

Be informed, be educated, vote for what you believe in.

 

I didn't realize that Brown, Voinovich, Strickland and Fisher have all lined up against Issue 3.

of course they have... issue 3 is set up to give money to local communities not the ohio general fund.

Also, Strickland was against gambling until he saw issue three gain a head of steam and attempted to ramrod his own gambling legislation through.  Ultimately making him look petty, in my opinion

This bill seems to be predatory. It is full of false hope. Tax revenue. The lottery and keno were suppossed to help schools too. Where does all that lottery tax money go?

 

200 million. That is a very small number when you think about how many schools there are. The real issue, raising teachers wages (to attract intelligent people instead of  merely licensed people) is ignored. But hey, you have to keep the masses stupid, fearful, conforming and distracted to control them.

 

JOBS. Again, low paying or min. wage jobs, temp. jobs. The no.'s here keep changing too. The highest I've heard is 34,000. That is a very small number when you think of how many unemployed people there are in the state. The real issue, making the min. wage a liveable wage, is ignored. But hey, you have to keep the masses poor, in debt, miserable and distracted to control them.

 

Most of the jobs will be min. wage and hey, probably dependent on tips as well. It will make a couple of people rich, again exploiting the masses.

 

I still have not read or heard a good reason to vote for casinos.

Are you saying 34,000 people unemployed is better then 34,000 people having minimum wage jobs, or having more tax money generated for cities and Ohio would be worse off then the cities not having that extra cushion?

 

You said 200 million is a very small number for schools yet is $0 better? Obviously casinos are not the answer to our economic issues but does it actually make it worse? Some might say it will drive other business out and is the only legitimate reason I could see going against this but even that is a little skeptical.

 

Some of my friends work in downtown as servers and the tips they make for a 4 hour or 6 hour shift is mind boggling sometimes.

 

I haven't heard of good reasons to vote against the casinos. People are going to gamble no matter what, whether it is online, other states, or the gambling options already available to us. Quicken Loans Arena has over 200 stands for food as well as restaurants yet once people leave the arena they go frequent the neighborhoods and it will be no different with a Casino since it will draw more people in general as well.

 

If a company came and said they want to invest at least 250 million dollars in your city in its urban core and said they are willing to get taxed 33% (not including the tax you get on wages, sales tax etc), want to upgrade your infrastructure, wants to market your city and draw tourists and wants to employ 34,000 people, would you reject this company especially since companies now leave at a drop of a hat for wherever they can get the most tax breaks?

This bill seems to be predatory. It is full of false hope. Tax revenue. The lottery and keno were suppossed to help schools too. Where does all that lottery tax money go?

 

200 million. That is a very small number when you think about how many schools there are. The real issue, raising teachers wages (to attract intelligent people instead of  merely licensed people) is ignored. But hey, you have to keep the masses stupid, fearful, conforming and distracted to control them.

 

JOBS. Again, low paying or min. wage jobs, temp. jobs. The no.'s here keep changing too. The highest I've heard is 34,000. That is a very small number when you think of how many unemployed people there are in the state. The real issue, making the min. wage a liveable wage, is ignored. But hey, you have to keep the masses poor, in debt, miserable and distracted to control them.

 

Most of the jobs will be min. wage and hey, probably dependent on tips as well. It will make a couple of people rich, again exploiting the masses.

 

I still have not read or heard a good reason to vote for casinos.

 

And your summation is not a reason to vote against it.

 

What has raising teacher pay have to do with this Casino bill specifically?  NOTHING!

 

How many unemployed people are in Ohio?  The number of jobs at the Casino will produce spin off jobs and ancillary business (hotels, restaurants, travel related business) and increase tourism especially in Cleveland.  That is what happens.

 

Keep the masses poor and in debt, hell the middle class and rich are in debt, but what has someone choice to go into debt (credit, housing, etc.) have to do with the Casino?  NOTHING!

 

What you wrote is nothing more than a "distraction" of the facts.

Again, the people who will be frequenting the casinos, ALREADY are frequenting casinos outside of Ohio!

This bill seems to be predatory. It is full of false hope. Tax revenue. The lottery and keno were suppossed to help schools too. Where does all that lottery tax money go?

 

Please check your facts.

 

All lottery profits are transferred to the Lottery Profits Education Fund.

Lottery profits constitute roughly 5% of the state's education budget.

For 2009, gambling in Ohio brought in $851 million in revenue.

 

200 million.

 

Factually false, see above.

 

The real issue, raising teachers wages (to attract intelligent people instead of  merely licensed people) is ignored. But hey, you have to keep the masses stupid, fearful, conforming and distracted to control them.

 

So, anyone who pushes pro-casino issues is now "stupid, fearful, conforming and distracted"? And we are not "intelligent"? What a good first few posts you've had!

 

JOBS. Again, low paying or min. wage jobs, temp. jobs. The no.'s here keep changing too. The highest I've heard is 34,000. That is a very small number when you think of how many unemployed people there are in the state. The real issue, making the min. wage a liveable wage, is ignored. But hey, you have to keep the masses poor, in debt, miserable and distracted to control them.

 

Good to see thoughtful discussion. Not all jobs created by the casino are minimum wage, and they are certainty not temporary. Have you ever stepped foot into a casino? The average wage for say, Hollywood Casino in Indiana, is $13/hour. And they receive health benefits. That's a huge step above say, Wal-Mart.

 

It's a job, and one that is fairly reliable. You may not like to work there, but there are thousands of people who would die for an opportunity to put a little bit of food on their table.

 

Most of the jobs will be min. wage and hey, probably dependent on tips as well. It will make a couple of people rich, again exploiting the masses.

 

You've really never been in a casino.

How many unemployed people are in Ohio? The number of jobs at the Casino will produce spin off jobs and ancillary business (hotels, restaurants, travel related business) and increase tourism especially in Cleveland. That is what happens.

I wonder how big of an impact this will really have here in Cincinnati.  Isn't there already a decent vacancy rate at the hotels?  and I wonder if the restaurants that go into a casino will actually dry up business at the restaurants in downtown.

 

The hotel issue assumes that people will make this a destination, why would they? aren't we reaching a saturation point where all metropolitan areas have a casino within a couple hours drive?  And really, i have seen the inside of a number of casinos and have yet to be impressed with any of them outside of Las Vegas.  I've heard great things about the new MGM Grand in Detroit...but i haven't been inside and i don't think what we'll be getting here is going to be like that.

 

Long term (more than 5 years) are these really going to be the cash cows that proponents claim?

^ Lets find out, vote Yes on 3.

"It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton

^lol, always a good attitude to take when amending the Constitution of the state.

^Nothing is ever a sure thing so we can't use that as an excuse not to do something.  Everyone needs to look at the issue and decide for themselves if it will improve the State or their local community.  Personally, I think that the casinos will increase tax revenue in the state and hopefully allow the state to lower business taxes (fat chance) to get the Ohio economy rolling again and improve the quality of our schools.  I also like the development that could occur in Cleveland with the passage of Issue 3. 

 

To the people that argue it won't create ENOUGH JOBS or ENOUGH TAX REVENUE... are you kidding me?  It's fine for you to vote against the issue, but it's important that you come up with some real reasons to vote against it.

 

To those that want to vote against it because it amends the Constitution... good for you.  I appreciate those with real reasons to vote against the issue.  I usually side with you, but I've made a special exception just this once.

By the time that these casinos go through design and permitting and all the pre-build steps...we'll be out of this extended recession.  This issue has been planned very well to take advantage of the economic hardships and to promote the benefits of the Casinos that (if true) are years down the road.

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