November 4, 200915 yr Toledo isn't big enough to support a casino anyway! Everyone there would be within easy driving distance to Cleveland or Columbus. Well that and...Detroit. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
November 4, 200915 yr Since these casinos are going to save us from the economic downturn we currently find ourselves in...those 34,000 jobs start work next week, right?
November 4, 200915 yr Since these casinos are going to save us from the economic downturn we currently find ourselves in...those 34,000 jobs start work next week, right? Why do you think, believe or keep saying that??? Not one person I know thinks the casinos are a silver bullet to all of our issues. As I asked before and you avoided, where is are you getting your information and why do you continue to post comments like that EVEN if you're "joking"??
November 4, 200915 yr It's not really a joke...but, i am playing off of the promises that have been made during the campaign where the entire focus was on 34,000 jobs being created. Why do you think that Ohio has defeated casinos so many times in the past and then all the sudden it gets passed when we're in the middle of the worst recession in years? I am not presenting any information here (other than the 34,000 jobs which you will find on any proponent of Issue 3's statements) more speculation. I don't care much about casinos. It was never the casino bit or the job bit that annoyed me with this issue. I don't agree with the ads that were run against it, either. I have only ever asked questions from proponents.
November 4, 200915 yr A lot of you know I grew up in St. Louis..... Casinos were legalized when I was younger. It started out with they could only be on boats.... Then they started to allow buildings that at least touched the water. Now they're allowing casinos to be built on land. People cash their paychecks at the casinos. The casinos bring in rough crowds sometimes. And never have I ever seen any of the casinos be all that crowded. The casinos have done nothing for St. Louis (and they now have more of them than I can count). I'm not all depressed and what not that the issue passed, but I can definitively say they're not all they're cracked up to be from first hand knowledge of living in a city similar to Cleveland.
November 4, 200915 yr I think there are two big reasons this passed this time, and I don't think the recession is one of them, although it definitely played a part. To start, this was the first proposal that was brought to the ballot in off cycle election. The Issue 3 people could concentrate on getting their supporters to the polls and not have to worry about the people who generally only vote in "major" elections and who would vote against Issue 3 to be safe because the don't have strong feelings either way. The second point is politically they played this beautifully, get strong support 2 of 3 the major cities, throw a bone to Toledo, Columbus voted against it but not nearly by the margins that it passed in greater Cleveland (see point 1). They basically rode the big margins. Yes the jobs promise swayed some people but the bigger reason that it passed was the well organized and thought out campaign. EDIT: Actually hearing DocBrocs comments on St. Louis, it may be a blessing that this is limited to 4 casinos.
November 4, 200915 yr I think it also passed because it was far and away the best proposal thus far. When I saw gilbert speak on this last week, he said that they were aproached by Penn for the wilmington casino and passed because they thought it was a terrible idea. So they did a lot of research to see what people "wanted". Results found that most people weren't necessarily opposed to casino gambling, rather they just didn't like many of the proposals. People wanted casinos in the urban cores, not in the rural areas. They wanted tax $ to go to the local municipalities, not to the state general fund. They wanted table games, not just slots.... Throw that all together on the ballot and it seemed to pass rather easily. I think this had much less to do with "desperate Ohians clinging to silver job bullets", and a lot more to do with adding an entertainment option people were comfortable with.
November 4, 200915 yr 3 PROPOSED CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT TO AMEND THE CONSTITUTION TO ALLOW FOR ONE CASINO EACH IN CINCINNATI, CLEVELAND, COLUMBUS, AND TOLEDO AND DISTRIBUTE TO ALL OHIO COUNTIES A TAX ON THE CASINOS Proposed by Initiative Petition To adopt Section 6 to Article XV of the Constitution of the State of Ohio This proposed amendment would: 1. Authorize only one casino facility at a specifically designated location within each of the cities of Cincinnati, Cleveland, Columbus, and Toledo. ...... Oh yeah...whoops to the average voter, how are we to know what the "specifically designated locations" are when we sit at the polling machine? Are those locations legally binding/mandated in any way??
November 4, 200915 yr ^That will be the kicker, especially for Toledo. If it could be built within or closer to downtown, there would be more spin-off. I'm glad to see this issue passed.
November 4, 200915 yr I voted for Issue 3 and am onboard with Gilbert's plans. Hearing him speak about his vision for the Cleveland casino was like music to my ears. It was almost like he was reading the Magna Carta of UrbanOhio everytime he campaigned. I really hope that he keeps all of his campaign promises because I probably would have voted against Issue 3 without them. The thing that swayed me the most is when I heard him acknowledge that a vibrant downtown is key to the casino's success, not vice-versa. Thus, as he promised, every decision he makes relative to siting, design, concept, etc. will take into account what is best for the city's core first, way before immediate return on investment.
November 4, 200915 yr ^This was also the reason why I voted yes for the issue. The casino in turn is part of the future of Downtown Cleveland's success. Having an additional entertainment option not offered elsewhere in the region will be beneficial for tourism. I would imagine that it won't hurt for conventions as well.
November 4, 200915 yr I voted for Issue 3 and am onboard with Gilbert's plans. Hearing him speak about his vision for the Cleveland casino was like music to my ears. It was almost like he was reading the Magna Carta of UrbanOhio everytime he campaigned. Jeez, you guys in Cleveland LOVE the hell out of Dan Gilbert. "Dan Gilbert cares about Cleveland!" "He's going to save our city!" "Oh, and he died for our sins!". Alright I'm exaggerating but I still stand by my assertion that you guys just like him a little too much. He's just in it for the money. His rock star status is kind of weird to me.
November 4, 200915 yr Does anyone know of/have a list of casinos located in or adjacent to large/mid-sized American Downtowns? The only one I'm pulling up from memory is Detroit. I'd be curious to see what is going on in surrounding areas.
November 4, 200915 yr St. Louis has a couple. It's fun to hit the bars and then walk over to the casino and win a bunch of money!
November 4, 200915 yr I think Dan Gilbert cares about his business interests. And he happens to have business interests in Cleveland. However he "gets it" when it comes to the need to invest in urban centers. Which is why I think so many people here like him. He's invested a lot in Cleveland. My only problem with Gilbert is he "doesn't know what he doesn't know", however he seems like a pretty bright guy who is open to learning and hearing others out... so I think in the end he'll do it right.
November 4, 200915 yr Westerville pulled through! Boo on Reynoldsburg, though. I think Westerville is a lot more progressive than people think. I was out there for Ohio Citizen Action getting donations and letters from citizens to send to Tiberi and Brown to stop Mountain top coal removal and lots of folks wanted to learn more about the issue. Many of them donated large amounts of cash and wrote letters, (also had their kids draw pictures with crayons of the exploding mountains - talk about persuasive and moving!).
November 4, 200915 yr I voted for Issue 3 and am onboard with Gilbert's plans. Hearing him speak about his vision for the Cleveland casino was like music to my ears. It was almost like he was reading the Magna Carta of UrbanOhio everytime he campaigned. Jeez, you guys in Cleveland LOVE the hell out of Dan Gilbert. "Dan Gilbert cares about Cleveland!" "He's going to save our city!" "Oh, and he died for our sins!". Alright I'm exaggerating but I still stand by my assertion that you guys just like him a little too much. He's just in it for the money. His rock star status is kind of weird to me. Trust me, Dan Gilbert is not a 'rock star' to everyone in Cleveland. I heard quite a few 'snake in the grass' comments the past couple days. He certainly caught a lot of flack from this board when he backed the Tower City location for the Medical Mart. But in this instance, he said all the right things. Seriously, an UrbanOhio appointed committee probably would have reached the exact same conclusions he did on the overall vision for the Casino. He is obligated to invest $250-300 million on the new casino development.... he has promised to invest double that amount. He is working with local businesses to bring a model that works/flows with, not against, the rest of downtown. I don't know how many times I heard the phrase "woven into the urban fabric of the City's core" when he was talking about his vision... You can add all that to the fact that he is the very popular owner of our only 'functional' pro sports team and that he has already brought new jobs to the City through his other endeavors. The money he has invested in the Cavs' roster and in improvements at the Q is quite impressive in this economy... regardless of locale. All in all, I would say his popularity, if not rock star status, is well deserved.
November 4, 200915 yr Jeez, you guys in Cleveland LOVE the hell out of Dan Gilbert. "Dan Gilbert cares about Cleveland!" "He's going to save our city!" "Oh, and he died for our sins!". Alright I'm exaggerating but I still stand by my assertion that you guys just like him a little too much. He's just in it for the money. His rock star status is kind of weird to me. I absolutely agree that he's in it for the money. However, he's a first class business person. Read a little bit about him. He's been successful at whatever he does. Quicken Loans is a wonderful place to work. He treats his employees very well and creates a team atmosphere. Quicken Loans never got into the sub prime business when so many others were falling in love with it. He creates an environment where people can succeed. I wish we had a lot more Dan Gilbert's in this city. It gives me a lot of faith that he'll build something that will be good for the City.
November 4, 200915 yr Does anyone know of/have a list of casinos located in or adjacent to large/mid-sized American Downtowns? The only one I'm pulling up from memory is Detroit. I'd be curious to see what is going on in surrounding areas. I've used NoLa as an example. Although the Harrah's is bunker like, it's location is prime and dead center surrounded by several hotels, restaurants and retail....and the street car.
November 4, 200915 yr Does anyone know of/have a list of casinos located in or adjacent to large/mid-sized American Downtowns? The only one I'm pulling up from memory is Detroit. I'd be curious to see what is going on in surrounding areas. I've used NoLa as an example. Although the Harrah's is bunker like, it's location is prime and dead center surrounded by several hotels, restaurants and retail....and the street car. I was having a conversation with X about the specific casinos in the St. Louis area (Missouri and Illinois). They are Argosy's Alton Belle Casino and the Casino Queen (both in Illinois) and the President Casino, Harrah's, Ameristar, Lumiere Place, and River City (all in Missouri). I'm not sure if I left any out - I had to look them up cause I can't name them all off the top of my head. Have any of them ever (since being legalized in 1993) done spectacularly themselves or improved their neighborhoods, not particularly.
November 4, 200915 yr I still don't have faith that the Casino's are a done deal. Dan Gilbert holds the cheapest, and I mean cheapest license for Casino gaming known to mankind at $50 million dollars. That is virtually nothing. What will keep Penn National from offering Dan Gilbert $200 or even $300 million for that license for a Cincy location and a Toledo location, hold on to it, just to simply block any lost revenues to their Indiana Casino's and their Toledo Racetrack. Dan Gilbert makes $150 million overnight, and Penn National blocks the competition. Remember, Penn national spent $62.47 million last year just to block a Casino in Wilmington from passing in election. Of Course, whre the license is sold, they will act like they are going to build something there, but I am just not buying it.
November 4, 200915 yr I think anyone who looks for casino's to "improve neighborhoods" (outside of the infastructure investment in the building itself, which in Cleveland's case will be a huge improvement over a chainlink fence and ratty hillside / paved parking along the river), is setting themselves up for disapointment. Casino's are just a "piece", if people think they are some sort of game changer they are mistaken.
November 4, 200915 yr I wish we had a lot more Dan Gilbert's in this city. But Dan Gilbert isn't even in Cleveland. (i'm just kidding...i know he invests a lot in Cleveland even though his primary business is in SE Michigan...i hope he continues with plans to invest heavily in Detroit, too.)
November 4, 200915 yr I wish we had a lot more Dan Gilbert's in this city. But Dan Gilbert isn't even in Cleveland. (i'm just kidding...i know he invests a lot in Cleveland even though his primary business is in SE Michigan...i hope he continues with plans to invest heavily in Detroit, too.) He did create about 300 new Quicken Loans jobs in downtown Cleveland.
November 4, 200915 yr ^He also decided to place the headquarters of his new company veritix in downtown cleveland, which has huge potential for growth.
November 4, 200915 yr what does "behind" mean though? Like, where the parking lot is? Where TC amphitheater is?
November 4, 200915 yr I still don't have faith that the Casino's are a done deal. Dan Gilbert holds the cheapest, and I mean cheapest license for Casino gaming known to mankind at $50 million dollars. That is virtually nothing. What will keep Penn National from offering Dan Gilbert $200 or even $300 million for that license for a Cincy location and a Toledo location, hold on to it, just to simply block any lost revenues to their Indiana Casino's and their Toledo Racetrack. Dan Gilbert makes $150 million overnight, and Penn National blocks the competition. Remember, Penn national spent $62.47 million last year just to block a Casino in Wilmington from passing in election. Of Course, whre the license is sold, they will act like they are going to build something there, but I am just not buying it. He has to much invested in cleveland and the cavs, especially if lebron leaves, to blatantly screw over the city like that
November 4, 200915 yr what does "behind" mean though? Like, where the parking lot is? Where TC amphitheater is? It seems Gilbert prefers the southwest corner of Huron and Ontario and exactly how far west it will extend is only conjecture. I myself would like to see it centered directly south of the Avenue shops but will have to wait and see. It is being discussed in the following thread: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,20680.360.html BTW congratulations Ohio. These casino's can be a vibrant entertainment option to the select cities if done properly, good luck.
November 4, 200915 yr I still don't have faith that the Casino's are a done deal. Dan Gilbert holds the cheapest, and I mean cheapest license for Casino gaming known to mankind at $50 million dollars. That is virtually nothing. What will keep Penn National from offering Dan Gilbert $200 or even $300 million for that license for a Cincy location and a Toledo location, hold on to it, just to simply block any lost revenues to their Indiana Casino's and their Toledo Racetrack. Dan Gilbert makes $150 million overnight, and Penn National blocks the competition. Remember, Penn national spent $62.47 million last year just to block a Casino in Wilmington from passing in election. Of Course, whre the license is sold, they will act like they are going to build something there, but I am just not buying it. As gilbert put it, the licence fees for the casinos were so low because the comitment for the casino infastructure is so high. Sure there are places that have charged 200+m for a license fee... but there were no stipulations in the amount invested in the casino. We are getting casino's that require a minimum $250m investment. He said they were willing to do one or the other and most of the research pointed to the fact that people preferred a more significant investment in the property. I personally am much happier getting the investment in a top of the line casino (or in Cleveland's case, a planned $5-600m casino), rather than a bunch of distributed tax $ and a $50m casino.
November 4, 200915 yr Anyone have any stats on the typical construction costs for non-Vegas casinos? E.g., the casinos in Detroit, Niagra, NoLa, etc.
November 4, 200915 yr What about this other amendment some are pushing to change the casinos' terms? I heard on the news that they are pushing for new terms, the few I heard was they want a 60% tax for the state as well as open up the process to bidding and even maybe allowing changes to the locations. They said it will take a 3/5th majority of the legislature to place a constitutional amendment on the May ballot. Will this really get any traction or get approved and if it does how will this change anything, especially if they get this going before May?
November 4, 200915 yr This does seem to be to the opening gambit in a complicated and intense year of politicking over these issues. The Horse folks are going to try to legalize theirs as well. Quality of construction is key. Phila. seems about to drop the ball on quality casino development. Niagara Falls is gross.
November 4, 200915 yr 60% tax? Vote that in and they may not get built. 60% is crazy high and unfair.
November 4, 200915 yr After a quick online search it looks like midsize/large cities with casinos in or within walking distance of Downtown are: Detroit St. Louis New Orleans Any others I'm missing?
November 4, 200915 yr After a quick online search it looks like midsize/large cities with casinos in or within walking distance of Downtown are: Milwaukee
November 4, 200915 yr Toledo isn't big enough to support a casino anyway! Everyone there would be within easy driving distance to Cleveland or Columbus. Well that and...Detroit. WINDSOR (already a popular Toledo destination for gambling, underage drinking, and hookers). Detroit and Windsor are serious competition, much more so than anything that might be built in Ohio. Toledo is much closer to Detroit/Windsor than Cleveland or Columbus, not to mention that's already the hub of the Midwestern market. DanB............
November 5, 200915 yr After a quick online search it looks like midsize/large cities with casinos in or within walking distance of Downtown are: Milwaukee I noticed theirs. It looks to be about a 3/4 mile from the edge of Downtown (what I think is Downtown) across an industrial area and highways. I figured that was too far/not well connected enough to consider "Downtown or walking distance to". But I haven't been, so I could be wrong.
November 5, 200915 yr After a quick online search it looks like midsize/large cities with casinos in or within walking distance of Downtown are: Milwaukee I noticed theirs. It looks to be about a 3/4 mile from the edge of Downtown (what I think is Downtown) across an industrial area and highways. I figured that was too far/not well connected enough to consider "Downtown or walking distance to". But I haven't been, so I could be wrong. Potowatomi in Milwaukee is definitely NOT within walking distance to downtown Milwaukee, unless we are using Marquette U as a definition for downtown Milwaukee.
April 10, 201114 yr http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/04/unsettled_tax_and_fee_issues_c.html So much for the anti tax stand that Mr. Tea party himself holds. I'm all for big corporations paying tax, the problem is that the vast majority don't and this particular one that is going to pay tax, a lot of it, is still given problems. Right wing hypocrisy at it's best.
April 11, 201114 yr http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/04/unsettled_tax_and_fee_issues_c.html So much for the anti tax stand that Mr. Tea party himself holds. I'm all for big corporations paying tax, the problem is that the vast majority don't and this particular one that is going to pay tax, a lot of it, is still given problems. Right wing hypocrisy at it's best. I totally agree. How can he change a constitutional amendment that was voted on by the people? The amendment passed and must be enacted as written on the ballot... no? The amendment clearly laid out the tax and fee structure... how can this be changed without another constitutional amendment / vote / huge delay? Is he simply dragging his feet on this because he's morally against gambling?
April 11, 201114 yr ^I don't think the executive branch of the government has the power to do so. Everything would need to be put to a vote by the people. Heck, didn't the location change for the Columbus casino take a vote by the people to change the amendment?
April 12, 201114 yr http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/04/unsettled_tax_and_fee_issues_c.html So much for the anti tax stand that Mr. Tea party himself holds. I'm all for big corporations paying tax, the problem is that the vast majority don't and this particular one that is going to pay tax, a lot of it, is still given problems. Right wing hypocrisy at it's best. John Kasich couldn't be any bigger disaster for this state. This knucklehead threatens our economy where he normally preaches "pro business" because of his personal, anti-casino agenda. And, yes, this after the voters said "yes" to casinos. Can we recall this fool tomorrow?
