What is the possibility of one floor in Tower City Center/The Avenue being turned into a restaurant destination for mid-scale restaurants? For instance, having a Maggiano's, P.F. Chang, Cheesecake Factory, and Legal Seafood? Since these restaurants have significant appeal it seems logical. Also, the Warehouse District and E. 4th appeals more to independent restaurant foodies.

Please...  Id much rather see these places filled with chain stores than chain restaurants..  One of the things that is great (and somewhat unique) about Cleveland (as opposed to many cities) is that there are so many great independent/local places. 

I realize that many conventioners, from suburbia USA, could care less and actually look for the familiar "chain" places that they are used to back home.  So they do have their place I guess..,       

I actually like Legal Seafood and hate seeing it lumped with those others, though suppose it should be.

 

I doubt anything like this would work at the Galleria for the foreseeable future, but who knows what kind of new life Tower City will find once the casino and MM/CC are going.  I guess I need to prepare myself for the downside of more visitors downtown.  I don't like empty storefronts, but I agree with Willyboy that I really appreciate that almost all our downtown dining is local/independent/distinctive.  A TGIF on Euclid would make me a little sad, so I guess I would be A-OK cramming all this stuff indoors somewhere and keeping it off our streets :)  Just my preference.

I completely agree with Willyboy. I love the fact that downtown Cleveland does not have any chain restaurants. First, I hate all of them and second, it makes our downtown dining unique.

I think we have to consider that many of the visitors to our new casino and those who are here for conventions and games want recognizable names to grab a bite, especially if their not carrying around their Zagat Guide. The restaurants mentioned are not on the level of Ruby Tuesday or TGIF, but actually serve quality food. In fact, compared to bigger metro areas, Cleveland doesn't have major representation for their brands.  Just a thought.

I'm sure many of us agree with you that all this downtown stuff could put Cleveland more on the map for some of these more upscale national chains.  And Tower City definitely seems like a good possibility to land some of them if they come, because of its location, layout and maybe because of Forest City's national relationships too.  But the only reason for us to consider it (unless one of us owns PF Changs or something) is because we feel about it one way or the other, and I'm sure there'd be lots of disagreement there.  All wrapped up in discussions in 900 other threads about chain v. local dining, local character, etc... 

I think we have to consider that many of the visitors to our new casino and those who are here for conventions and games want recognizable names to grab a bite, especially if their not carrying around their Zagat Guide. The restaurants mentioned are not on the level of Ruby Tuesday or TGIF, but actually serve quality food. In fact, compared to bigger metro areas, Cleveland doesn't have major representation for their brands.   Just a thought.

 

Exactly, which is why we said it makes Cleveland unique and pretty special and consider it a good thing. 

I realize not everybody has that same appreciation, and Im sure theres room for some of this, but why does Cleveland need to have the same thing that every city and suburb has everywhere......? 

 

FYI, this was actually the positive side of Starks WHD development plan not moving forward, it would have brought many of these brands to Cleveland/downtown (they are typically the ones that can afford the rent to go into these new/mass redevelopment efforts), just like any other city that has done the same thing....     

 

Eventually one or two of these will make it inside the city limits, maybe University Circle?

I like PF Changs and I would definitely like it downtown or UC.

Adding a few chains to the mix would go a long way toward erasing negative perceptions.  We don't have to eat there, but some visitors might prefer to.  If we want more visitors we need a full range of options.

I agree with having a full range of option (independent and chains), three i think would suffice and the ones named are very popular choices of big city visitors. I love that we have E. 4th and The Warehouse district, but having options  of upscale chains definitely makes us more reputable. It would be cool  if Tower city only had independent clothing and apparel shops, but having a Banana Republic, J. Crew and Crate and Barrel brings recognizable quality brands.

I think we have to consider that many of the visitors to our new casino and those who are here for conventions and games want recognizable names to grab a bite, especially if their not carrying around their Zagat Guide. The restaurants mentioned are not on the level of Ruby Tuesday or TGIF, but actually serve quality food. In fact, compared to bigger metro areas, Cleveland doesn't have major representation for their brands.  Just a thought.

 

You think out of town visitors are going to want to eat at a restaraunt they can just as easily go to in their hometown and get the same exact dish?

 

If I had to guess, if there are those people out there, they won't be staying in downtown anyway.  They will get a hotel room on Chagrin Blvd and drive their rental car downtown.

 

As far as chain restaraunts downtown, we are not completely without.  Hard Rock is a chain.  So is Morton's.  So is Caddy Ranch.  Just to name a few.

 

When downtown gets a B-Spot and a Melt, those will be considered chains?

Local chains, which are still unique to Cleveland/the area. 

I think the OP is thinking more along the lines of national chains.  I suppose I sort of see his point.  I just don't see it as being beneficial to the City.  I can't imagine anyone being booking a reservation based on whether there is a PF Changs downtown and I can't imagine anyone being disappointed in their dining options while here.  There is a lot to gripe about your downtown Cleveland experience, but quality dining options is the last thing I could realistically see anyone complaining about.

Adding a few chains to the mix would go a long way toward erasing negative perceptions.  We don't have to eat there, but some visitors might prefer to.  If we want more visitors we need a full range of options.

 

Would that include parking options?  Because I hear this numbskull (Trivissommo) on the radio constantly complaining to his millions of listeners that there are not enough parking options downtown and that nobody is going to go to the casino because there is nowhere to park.  Point is, trying to appease a 'full range' of visitors can be damaging.

As much as we all may not like chain restaurans, when and if we do see them pop up, it will be a sign of progress in a way.  Right now, DT is full of destination restaurants.  They are not thriving off of the downtown residents simply because there are not nearly enough people to support them, but rather off of a 40 mile radius of residents living around them.  In other word, they are not everyday establishments.  When we see Fridays, Cheescakes, PF Changs, we will know that we may be getting there to that critical mass figure.  Places that someone can run into in street clothes, sit at the bar and eat an $8 hamburger and leave.  Simply dining options that are cheap and quick. 

I agree with your overall point about the critical mass..... but I could name several places downtown where you can run into in street clothes, sit at the bar and eat an $8 hamburger and leave.  Winking Lizard, Golic's, Corner Alley, Flannery's come immediately to mind.

I agree with your overall point about the critical mass..... but I could name several places downtown where you can run into in street clothes, sit at the bar and eat an $8 hamburger and leave.  Winking Lizard, Golic's, Corner Alley, Flannery's come immediately to mind.

 

Yes, I thought of those also.  I guess my point is, with the chains, there is no question what the menu looks like or how much it's going tpo cost.  With the national chains, you pretty much know what your going to order when you walk in, and approximately how much it's going to cost.  Kind of like saying "I'm going to run into McDonalds and get a Big Mac.

 

Winking Lizard and Flannery's fit the bill.

Golic's sometimes isn't open for evenings on end.

Corner Alley can be very un-casual, at least what I've seen

 

Anyway, there is nothing wrong with these national mid-range chains. Yeah, all of them are not my cup of tea

But there is a huge customer base and as soon as they figure out they can make money in downtown Cleveland, some will be setting up shop.

"You think out of town visitors are going to want to eat at a restaraunt they can just as easily go to in their hometown and get the same exact dish?"

 

Absolutely. Why do you think the TGI Friday's on Times Square is packed all the time? People want what is familiar to them. While we might think it's mediocre, boring, annoying, whatever, people DEFINITELY will decide to book here vs. somewhere else because there is a PF Changs or Cheesecake Factory or CPK here vs. a Michael Symon restaurant or GHT or what have you.

When my parents come to visit, I have to google the nearest Longhorn Steakhouse to appease them.  Every time.  Boomers like chains, they like familiar and predictable.  And chains would be viewed as a signal that downtown Cleveland is part of the national scene.

^not that you'd ever extrapolate from your own family to describe all boomers, of course...

 

I guess I'm kind of torn.  I totally get the goal of broadening the appeal with new options to build up downtown as an attraction, which can then generate other new stuff, and I know opening a Fridays in, say, the Prospect side of the May Co building doesn't directly affect the enjoyment of East 4th.  But it will also make downtown a little less special to me given my personal tastes and I know I'm not alone.  So I don't think it's objectively bad, I just know I'd be a bit more apt to go out to Tremont, OC or UC instead of downtown to enjoy a night out or to live.  The urban ambiance I enjoy most is more than pretty facades and crowded sidewalks- I like it to have a little class or sophistication or history or something other than bland, off the shelf same as everywhere stuff. And yes, I realize that is going to sound dumb to a lot of people.

 

Happily, the Fridays crowd is also less likely to want to walk outside very far after parking their car, so I am still hopeful some of this stuff, to the extent it's inevitable will land in Tower City or the casino.  Except for Legal Seafood. They can pop one of those guys right on Euclid :)

 

Absolutely. Why do you think the TGI Friday's on Times Square is packed all the time? People want what is familiar to them. While we might think it's mediocre, boring, annoying, whatever, people DEFINITELY will decide to book here vs. somewhere else because there is a PF Changs or Cheesecake Factory or CPK here vs. a Michael Symon restaurant or GHT or what have you.

 

Yeah, that occurred to me too.  I'm not going to pretend this is an immediate danger of happening in Cleveland, but Times Square has essentially been ceded to the tourists by a lot of NYers.  It is a fiscal engine for the city's coffers, but otherwise the chain stuff there has turned it into a completely dull no-go zone for just about everyone I know.  Which is fine, because there are dozens of other cool places.  And there are other cool places in Cleveland too for those who don't love this kind of stuff.

What is the possibility of one floor in Tower City Center/The Avenue being turned into a restaurant destination for mid-scale restaurants? For instance, having a Maggiano's, P.F. Chang, Cheesecake Factory, and Legal Seafood? Since these restaurants have significant appeal it seems logical. Also, the Warehouse District and E. 4th appeals more to independent restaurant foodies.

 

Personally, I hate food court set ups or anything remotely related. The reason is because it is not an environment in which one can single out and actually discover a unique establishment with its own individual appeal. IMO, they're somewhat cheap, gaudy, tacky and passe. Food courts or what is described here, sets a scene of all places jumbled together, mixing the smells of all the foods....not even allowing the senses to detect the aroma of ONE particular place at a time.

 

Then, all patrons sitting in an open court, look like hogs feeding at a trough. While I know what is described in the above idea is not exactly a "food court" enviro...  It still relates in that all these places would be on one floor. Greater Cleveland already has its share of such establishments. Please leave the core to a place where individual artisans of all sorts can practice and hone their craft, be it food or whatever. It can be a place where they can all have a consolidated competitive edge amidst a highly franchised-out U.S. these days.

 

 

Additionally, I am with Willyboy on this... Cleveland is GREAT in that you can live almost exclusively without relying on clone zone chain gangs. Why make it a franchised out city hat is no different from exurbia and parking lots? Such an idea is also so counter productive to the fostering and promotion of independent, local foods as well.... And, this is the direction we should be moving towards to promote more sustainability and a self supporting economy where we do not have to rely on The Lone Ranger to come in and save the day for us...do it for us, when we can do it ourselves as we see the talents of the great local cooks/chefs manifest.

 

I would like to mention that at The Galleria, an idea is being tossed around about creating a local foods food court....  All local, all independent, no bad smells.

It doesn't sound dumb, not to the people on here, but we have to make it more Times Square than Brooklyn here, so the out of towners will want to visit. There will always be secret pockets and holes and places the locals love more. It won't lose the character.

^ Times Square has lost a lot of heart and soul with its cloning trend, IMO. One city no different from the next is the direction I would want to avoid. Maybe its time more people who were so used to and who have gotten hooked on Applebee's, take some time to see what they're missing out on.

Yes yes, all that is good in theory, and once we GET them here, we can have our hotel concierges suggest those places to them. However, many people want the Longhorn Steakhouse and that's all they want. MANY.

Some people dont want to gamble, they have their one or two meals they know they love from one chain, and if they are going out and spending money, they want to know that they will enjoy their meal. So as someone mentioned before, one or two popular chains wouldn't hurt, but downtown being taken over by them would be a disaster.

Tower City already possess a host of chains...  some not the best as what was listed above, but chains do exist.  Maybe a few higher end ones, but keep it at that and not set a bad precedent.

 

And, R&R...

 

Yes yes, all that is good in theory, and once we GET them here, we can have our hotel concierges suggest those places to them. However, many people want the Longhorn Steakhouse and that's all they want. MANY.

 

Are you kidding? People "want" what they've been forced to be exposed to.....and in some places, those kinds of places have been the steady diet for reasons that will go way beyond topic here. Tell ya what, in order to preserve a downtown's character...one that separates it from the sprawl scene, I would be willing to have a cab service to take anyone who wants "Applebee's, etc." on a 10 minute excursion to Rockside Road or Westgate Town Center scenes. My God..how did people live..where did they eat..how did they possibly survive before the chain gang invasion in every town and city across the country!

^not that you'd ever extrapolate from your own family to describe all boomers, of course...

 

Indeed I would.  My parents alone aren't keeping that entire chain open.  Basically, I don't see how it's bad to have a full range of choices.  No one's making you pick something you don't want. 

When my parents come to visit, I have to google the nearest Longhorn Steakhouse to appease them.  Every time.  Boomers like chains, they like familiar and predictable.  And chains would be viewed as a signal that downtown Cleveland is part of the national scene.

 

Shame on you for not introducing them to something local and better than a Longhorn...  Maybe you need to show them that there are options outside of what they know and broaden their horizons...  and show them whats special about where you live. 

It doesn't sound dumb, not to the people on here, but we have to make it more Times Square than Brooklyn here, so the out of towners will want to visit. There will always be secret pockets and holes and places the locals love more. It won't lose the character.

 

Yeah, that pretty much captures it.  To state the obvious, I guess we cast our lot with the out of towners when we went with the casino and CC/MM.  The last 50 years pretty muck killed off all the old school Cleveland commercial character, but at least we do have some of the better recent stuff downtown to keep the locals happy too.

 

I don't mean this as a slap at another city, but just as an illustration of what interests me...every once in a while I have a daydream nightmare that Cleveland looks like this: http://bit.ly/f2nYC2  And that you stand on a main thoroughfare (particularly horrifying to me if it's paved entirely with dull red bricks) and you must choose between the Ruths Chris and the PF Chang for dinner, and then for breakfast it's the Einstein Bros Bagels or the Starbucks.  I hate those choices when I travel and I would simply stop coming downtown if that's what ended up defining it.  Doesn't make it bad, just speaking from my personal tastes.

When my parents come to visit, I have to google the nearest Longhorn Steakhouse to appease them.  Every time.  Boomers like chains, they like familiar and predictable.  And chains would be viewed as a signal that downtown Cleveland is part of the national scene.

 

Shame on you for not introducing them to something local and better than a Longhorn...  Maybe you need to show them that there are options outside of what they know and broaden their horizons...  and show them whats special about where you live. 

 

I don't think you understand.  Believe me I've tried.  Diffrent strokes for diffrent folks, we'll just leave it at that. 

Gotcha

When my parents come to visit, I have to google the nearest Longhorn Steakhouse to appease them.  Every time.  Boomers like chains, they like familiar and predictable.  And chains would be viewed as a signal that downtown Cleveland is part of the national scene.

 

Boomers also like suburban subdivisions with 1/2 acre lots..... so I guess you would have no problem with one of them setting up shop in MidTown.  C'mon man, you are the most zoning restrictive person I know.  Why break from your M.O. here?

 

I don't think ther is any reason for concern over the possibility of a couple more mid- to high-range chains added to the dining scene here.

Morton's hasnt killed Hyde Park or JohnQ's. I don't see PF Changs affecting AsiaTown.

Cleveland has an embarassment of riches when it comes to superstar chefs, local food scene, great independent restaurants and local chains, etc.

 

 

I don't think 'concern' is the right word.  If one of those restaurants wants to open in downtown, i don't think anyone would seek to block PF Changs or anything like that from opening in a location downtown.  The question, as I see it, is whether downtown 'needs' chains to attract tourists/residents.  Sorry, I don't care what anyone says, I can't buy into that.  It's not like people go to Times Square to eat at the Friday's...... they eat at the Friday's because it is in Times Square and they are hungry.  If Friday's wasn't there, they would just choose another place to eat and Times Square would be just as popular.  On the other hand, people DO go to downtown Cleveland to eat at Lola.

 

I get the "it doesn't hurt" argument.  I don't get the "we need this" argument.

^^I know you're right.  I've gone off the alarmist deep end a little bit.

 

I really do understand the goal of broadening downtown's appeal to everyone, no matter how unadventurous.  At least as a means to suck money out of suburbanites to boost the city's fiscal position and create some low paying jobs.  It just seems to conflict with another conception of downtown as a culturally special place, one of the few with enough critical mass to support the alternatives to the longhorns et al (even the really nice ones) that you can already find all over the place.

 

Boomers also like suburban subdivisions with 1/2 acre lots..... so I guess you would have no problem with one of them setting up shop in MidTown.  C'mon man, you are the most zoning restrictive person I know.  Why break from your M.O. here?

 

Yeah, that struck me as funny too.  I guess 327 wants his parents to be able to eat in town but not live in town.  Nothing wrong with a little parental distance :)

 

I get the "it doesn't hurt" argument.  I don't get the "we need this" argument.

 

Yeah, I'm with you there.  The fiscal impact is great, but I don't think downtown will fail if Madame "I will only eat at Cheesecake Factory" has to have her nights out at Legacy Village.

 

 

I don't mean this as a slap at another city, but just as an illustration of what interests me...every once in a while I have a daydream nightmare that Cleveland looks like this: http://bit.ly/f2nYC2  And that you stand on a main thoroughfare (particularly horrifying to me if it's paved entirely with dull red bricks) and you must choose between the Ruths Chris and the PF Chang for dinner, and then for breakfast it's the Einstein Bros Bagels or the Starbucks...

Strap you're too obsessed (your words) to stop loving the Cleve  :wink:

 

 

I don't think 'concern' is the right word.  If one of those restaurants wants to open in downtown, i don't think anyone would seek to block PF Changs or anything like that from opening in a location downtown...  On the other hand, people DO go to downtown Cleveland to eat at Lola.

I get the "it doesn't hurt" argument.  I don't get the "we need this" argument.

 

How about me who lives downtown? I'm sorry but I am not going to Lola, Chinato, Johnny's, Zinc, Blue Point Grille, Morton's, Bricco (destination places) every night of the week. That is CRAZY!  Yeah I hit up Asiatown places for takeout. But give me some mainstream Casual other than Winking Lizard (acceptable bar food) and Houlihan's (yuck!).

 

 

 

 

 

Well no one should go out every night of the week :-P

 

You need to learn how to make some homemade meals!

 

I do not cook!

 

Actually, Middle Eastern is my favorite. I have to go to the suburbs (usually Cleve Hts location) for Aladdiin's.

THAT'S REALLY WHAT I WANT DOWNTOWN.

Btw, Nates on W. 25th is the best, I know. But it closes too early.

^turkish grill in tremont ?

 

You're absolutely right.

I have been unable to make it yet to either Alaturka in OC or Istanbul Turkish in Tremont.

Those are coming up real soon.

I really would like somewhere like that downtown though.

^ is there anything other than middle eastern that your missing from downtown? I also live downtown and usually have an easy time finding the food (at the price) that I am looking for, though sometimes that requires a short trip over to tremont or ohio city.

We are missing an Indian restaurant and a low priced Mexican restaurant .

 

Don't forget about Kan Zamans, Zdara and Falafel Cafe(University Circle) for Middle Eastern. I wish the people of Falafel Cafe would have opened one downtown instead of 25th by Metro.

I guess 327 wants his parents to be able to eat in town but not live in town.  Nothing wrong with a little parental distance :)

 

One time, on a trip, dad actually said "I just need to find a mall parking lot and then we can eat."  Getting such a person to visit downtown is a lot easier than getting them to live there.  Several orders of magnitude.  But a little market analysis goes a long way.  There are a lot of people who simply prefer chain restaurants.  Either we include those people or we don't.  I don't see how including them causes much damage, and it certainly can't hurt foot traffic.  Maybe it gets them to notice the cooler stuff on E4th that they wouldn't otherwise have considered.   

 

And to Hts121's point, zoning has nothing to do with what type of restaurant occupies a given restaurant space.  It's the same built environment either way, the same class of activity.  Now if someone wanted to put a machine shop in Tower City, that might get my panties in a bunch.

 

^ is there anything other than middle eastern that your missing from downtown? I also live downtown and usually have an easy time finding the food (at the price) that I am looking for, though sometimes that requires a short trip over to tremont or ohio city.

 

I'm with you on going over to OC, Tremont or DS. I personally consider the W. 25th/Market District area of OC the western edge of downtown. Not everybody does, I know that. But if we just keep the discussion to the CBD for purposes of this thread title, then (for me) we are missing a Middle Eastern place, a Five Guys, a (neighborhood) pizza place like Danny Boys in River, a Heck's Cafe type place, an Indian restaurant as mentioned (which really is so hard to believe given our Indian population), a Thai place, more Organic/non-Pharmed food places and -- yes -- a couple mid-range national chains. Diverse dining options.

I realize there are several other places now than just the destination places I mentioned upthread. But we need to stop thinking of downtown as only a destination. And that is thankfully changing.

I'm looking forward to PuraVida (billed as a neighborhood eatery) in the May Company building and also the NoodleCat. I see more stuff like this coming.

5-10 years ago I would've said that places like a noodle house, burger place, Mid Eastern, Indian would show up in the WHD. But now that is more likely to occur in the Lower Euclid/Lower Prospect/E. 4th zone. Or even PHS/CSU.

Any of these places are walkable from where I live. That's pretty important for me.

It'll be very interesting to watch the unfolding of the Uptown neighborhood in Univ Circle. That's gonna be pretty compact, dense and walkable. There will probably be a cool lineup of tenants (retail and restaurant).

 

 

 

Btw just because I/we don't cook doesn't mean I/we don't eat homemade meals. Invites to the homes of family and friends ensures that.

All I can say is I completely see 327s side of things, there are TONS of people out there like the Longhorn Steakhouse-only parents, and we want their dollars downtown. We can work on educating them once they get here, but you know, the people like my (former) hairdresser who went to Egypt with a girlfriend and ate at Domino's pizza EVERY SINGLE DAY because it was the only "normal" food they could find, there are more of them around than perhaps many of you would like to admit. We can pretend that we can FORCE them into trying things outside of their comfort zone just because we know they're going to like it, and then they won't come, or they'll complain that there's "nowhere" to eat downtown except "fancy" places, or we can provide some of those comfort zone restaurants, and the people will relax, come here, eat there AND possibly also somewhere else.

 

I talk to a lot of people online from all areas of the country. When they travel, complaints include "there was 'nowhere' near the hotel to eat, not even an Appelbees." People LIKE that stuff, a lot of people, and even though I don't, and even though most of us on here don't, completely denying that there's any draw to those people in having those restaurants here, or stamping our feet and insisting they go elsewhere isn't going to work.

 

 

Didn't we have a TGIFriday's on the East Bank at one point? I seem to recall it failed, sometime around 01 or 02? Maybe that was part of the decline of the flats.

 

I'm in the RnR and 327 camp. There are people who get excited about going to places like PF Changs and Cheescake (I'm looking at my friends who have grown up in a small city in upstate NY, with no access to these chains. To this group of people, particularly if they're coming here from a place that doesn't have one of those, they're the required status symbols of a 'successful' city. They're brands that they recognize, but haven't ever had before.

 

If we're courting conventioneers, they are likely coming from all over the country, not just other developed metro areas.