I find it hard to believe that a Hecks Cafe, Bar Cento, Winking Lizard, South-Side type situation wood be out of someones comfort zone if they're looking for an Applebees experience. Now people from out of town probably aren't going to know about those places, but aren't they talking to their hotel concierge?

No, generally they're NOT talking to their hotel concierge. They're looking online to find out how close an appelbees is to the hotel, or hearing from their neighbor or cousin how they went there and it was great because there was CPK right next to the casino. If they were open minded and looking for suggestions, the type of people who talk to the concierge, they wouldn't be eating at Appelbees in the first place. Plus, they're likely not staying in hotels nice enough to even HAVE a concierge.

Oh, and I have PLENTY of co-workers who will not eat at places like Bar Cento because the food is "too weird."

I did not realize this was so controversial.  Bottom line is YES, this is a "need" if our downtown is to reach the next level as a destination.  We cannot force people to change their tastes for the purpose of visiting here.  We need to provide a competitive range of dining choices.  I couldn't be happier that our range will always skew toward the local and the unique, but we cannot completely ignore the other end of the spectrum.  Hopefully the casino will usher in a couple more mainstream establishments.

I don't recall the Fridays (there was Max and Ermas for sure), but I'm almost positive there was a Longhorn's on the east bank.  The east bank was full of that accessible cook-by-numbers stuff in the 1990s.

 

I don't know about Hts, but I readily admit that lots of people, locals and visitor alike, love familiar chains and that's OK and I'm not going to try to convert them (I don't exactly spend much time socializing with them either, but that's not by design). 

 

I don't think that's the central question here though. I think the main argument is about whether we as individuals would be happy to see these places downtown and whether or not we "need" them for downtown to "succeed".  And all that depends on what your idea of downtown succeeding is.  And that's where we're all going to disagree and kid ourselves that we have some principled objective measure when we really most of us don't, because it's all shaped by our own tastes too.  If you think maximizing sales tax collection, downtown visitor counts and accessibility to suburban visitors is the goal, Dan Gilbert agrees and is going to knock down the Stanley Block or Columbia Building to help make it happen.  If you think maximizing the convention business is a huge goal, we should start building sky bridges.  If you think it's about projecting a certain image, well that obviously depends on what image you want to project [safe to say, we'll disagree about that.]

 

Anyway, obviously it's up to the chefs corporate offices and landlords to decide, not us.  I personally don't think it's a problem that not everyone who's afraid of food with funny names is comfortable eating downtown, but I won't cry [much] if a chunk of downtown starts looking like Legacy Village either.  Especially if it comes with all that retail too :)

I don't think that's the central question here though. I think the main argument is about whether we as individuals would be happy to see these places downtown and whether or not we "need" them for downtown to "succeed".  And all that depends on what your idea of downtown succeeding is.  And that's where we're all going to disagree and kid ourselves that we have some principled objective measure when we really most of us don't, because it's all shaped by our own tastes too.  If you think maximizing sales tax collection, downtown visitor counts and accessibility to suburban visitors is the goal, Dan Gilbert agrees and is going to knock down the Stanley Block or Columbia Building to help make it happen.  If you think maximizing the convention business is a huge goal, we should start building sky bridges.  If you think it's about projecting a certain image, well that obviously depends on what image you want to project [safe to say, we'll disagree about that.]

 

In a word, inclusiveness.  Yes you'll find things here that you won't find elsewhere.  But not to the exclusion of things that you would find elsewhere.

I agree with much of what has been said.  While I won't specifically seek out chain places, A LOT of people do.  And that's an important thing to consider!

 

I also agree with Clueless.  As a downtown resident (although one who cooks and just wants an occasional meal out), I get tired of only having bar food or way too expensive food as dinner options.  We really do need some mid-range RESTAURANTS, not bars, whether they be chain or locally owned.

I remember the Friday's there. As the flats business declined, so did the business there. I think the W bank was always a more difficult draw than the E because it was less walkable and there were less places to go. It was basically just the one building, the powerhouse, and if you didn't specifically want to go to the powerhouse, why would you go to the W bank at all. I remember being at that Fridays when it was very, very busy and then when it started to get really, really dead. Basically, a series of other restaurants tried to make a go of it there and they couldn't overcome the challenges of that space/place either and nothing ever really worked.

All I know is that out of all the chains, Fridays would be at the bottom of my list of ones I wouldn't mind seeing downtown.

I did not realize this was so controversial.  Bottom line is YES, this is a "need" if our downtown is to reach the next level as a destination.  We cannot force people to change their tastes for the purpose of visiting here.  We need to provide a competitive range of dining choices.  I couldn't be happier that our range will always skew toward the local and the unique, but we cannot completely ignore the other end of the spectrum.  Hopefully the casino will usher in a couple more mainstream establishments.

 

The way you phrase your arguments is so odd to me.  In so many topics, you redirect the conversation to some mythical land where "we" are the reason why xyz is or is not happening.  We're not talking about putting a WalMart on the WHD lots.  If a chain like PF Changs wants to open a location in downtown Cleveland, it will.  It has market researchers who know a helluva lot more about this stuff than any of us.  If a downtown location makes sense, you will see one there.  Nobody is stopping them.  City hall surely would not stand in their way.  I surely will not..... that is until Applebee's announces it has purchased one of the WHD lots and intends to plop down its usual structure with the parking spaces its patrons demand...... you know, because we have to have a 'full range of [parking] options' for those people or else they won't come downtown.  Like it or not, there are a LOT of people who prefer to dine in a location where they can park right in front.... and in the back.... and on the side.

 

But, back to the point, I just don't get it.  Are you advocating for some sort of incentive (such as a tax credit) for the City (I mean "we") to entice these restaraunts to come downtown?  At that point, we (you and I) would have disagreement.  I don't understand how what "we" provide and what "we" allegedly force on others has any relevance to this conversation.

 

The conversation, in my opinion, is more appropriately framed on simple speculation of (a) whether an increase in chain restaraunts will make downtown more attractive to visitors; and (b) what negative consequences that might bring about.  It is not about "we" stopping anything from happening.  "We" can't. 

 

 

Along the same lines, Geis wants to know why his midtown office building doesn't fit in 327's "inclusiveness."  http://www.midtowntechpark.com/  He's just giving possible tenants another choice to broaden the appeal of Midtown.

Some people dont want to gamble, they have their one or two meals they know they love from one chain, and if they are going out and spending money, they want to know that they will enjoy their meal. So as someone mentioned before, one or two popular chains wouldn't hurt, but downtown being taken over by them would be a disaster.

 

I agree with that. 

 

80% of the time for me, I am not looking for a "dining experience".  I just want to run in somewhere, sit down for 30 minutes, and get back on with the day.  Take for instance if we were dt with the kids.  It would be great to run into a Friday's, get 4 items for them off the kids menu for a relatively cheap price, and run out.  Places like that are great to run into with the kids/family.  Theres no pressure LOL.  Different story if it's date night though and I want to wine and dine my bride. 

 

That was my whole point when I said seeing chains pop up will in a sense be a positive thing.  It just shows that not only are people dining at destination spots downtown such as the E4th and WHD establishments, but they are also supporting Fridays, PF Changs, etc.  Lets face it, no ones going to go from Strongsville DT to eat at Fridays.

^That is all totally reasonable, but to echo some other folks earlier, chain v. non chain is not the same as "dining experience" v. quick bite.  Fridays might provide that quick bite, but so can Vincenza's.  Nothing wrong with liking Friday's, but if you that's what you want, it's not because it's the only way to feed kids quickly.

Vincenza's, with it's very limited hours, is a counter service place. Totally different than going to a place with table service. Busy parents don't want to have to schlep trays with food for everyone over to a table and then clean it all up, they want to be waited on, quickly, and with someone who will bring the kid out some animal crackers and a sippy cup immediately, where someone BRINGS you the high chair, and provides something for the kids to draw on and a couple of crayons. And has a bathroom.

Along the same lines, Geis wants to know why his midtown office building doesn't fit in 327's "inclusiveness."  http://www.midtowntechpark.com/  He's just giving possible tenants another choice to broaden the appeal of Midtown.

 

Not the same lines at all.  Come on.  One is different flavors of the same land use, while the other is a clash of radically different land uses.

 

Indy Restarant : Chain Restaurant =/= Any Restaurant : Industrial Park

^Yeah, but your preferences for land use are about as esoteric to most people as my preferences for non-chains.  That's my point.  You have your strong vision for how you want things and other people have theirs.  Geis certainly isn't preventing anyone from building a four story mixed used building somewhere else in the neighborhood if they want to.

 

Vincenza's, with it's very limited hours, is a counter service place. Totally different than going to a place with table service. Busy parents don't want to have to schlep trays with food for everyone over to a table and then clean it all up, they want to be waited on, quickly, and with someone who will bring the kid out some animal crackers and a sippy cup immediately, where someone BRINGS you the high chair, and provides something for the kids to draw on and a couple of crayons. And has a bathroom.

 

Ok, Vincenzas was a bad example.  I completely understand that downtown can use more family-friendly, casual dining places, be they chain or not chain.  Just want to emphasize that they need not be chains to be family friendly and casual.  There are a lot of places still in this country fully of busy yuppie parents that somehow thrive without TGIF's.

^That is all totally reasonable, but to echo some other folks earlier, chain v. non chain is not the same as "dining experience" v. quick bite.  Fridays might provide that quick bite, but so can Vincenza's.  Nothing wrong with liking Friday's, but if you that's what you want, it's not because it's the only way to feed kids quickly.

 

EDIT: though I completely understand that downtown can use more family-friendly, casual dining places, be they chain or not chain.  Just want to emphasize that they need not be chains to be family friendly and casual.

 

You know, we have tried walking into Vincenza's with the kids before, and it was never open.  I have heard gpood things about it though.  Maybe they are not open on weekends??

 

In any event, I am not going to argue about this.  I have no problems with chains.  All the major cities around the United States that have very vibrant downtowns have several of the chains listed above located within them.  They sit amongs very fine dining and successful establishments.  There is a reason for that, and that is my only point. 

^^^^Do you think there aren't those types of places downtown?.... Sure, they are not in abundance, but neither would I guess are there unsatisfied families with kids looking to sit down for a quick bite.  Golic's BTW has always been a hit with my kid..... corner alley and hard rock are other good spots to take him.  Same basic kids menu you will find anywhere else.  OK..... maybe they don't have those fancy suspenders..... you might have me there

I think there's a different feel to a restaurant than a bar that serves food. Golics is a sports bar. Corner alley, I mean, it's a bowling alley. Not that it's not fun, but it's not a place to grab a quick bite to eat with the fam unless you want them to whine about going bowling. Hard Rock is a CHAIN and is a good example of the type of place people are looking for. It is very difficult to get to hard rock unless you know exactly where to go. It's not like it's right there on the street and you can pass it by while walking through the square and just walk in. You'd have to go in tower city and then know that it's on the 3rd floor, not the main floor, or the busy-looking 2nd floor, and then know which escalator takes you up there, since some do and some don't, etc. It's just not easily accessible.

 

I would guess actually that yes, there are unsatisfied families with kids looking to sit down for a quick bite, and I would bet they go out of downtown proper quite frequently, actually.  Too many places downtown are either not open on the weekends or are not family friendly or not easy to get to or whatever.

^^^^Do you think there aren't those types of places downtown?.... Sure, they are not in abundance, but neither would I guess are there unsatisfied families with kids looking to sit down for a quick bite.  Golic's BTW has always been a hit with my kid..... corner alley and hard rock are other good spots to take him.  Same basic kids menu you will find anywhere else.  OK..... maybe they don't have those fancy suspenders..... you might have me there

 

There's another one that you mentioned, Golics.  We have tried going there on a Saturday afternoon, and it was closed. 

 

Also, I will say we have no problem whatsoever taking the kids to a non-chain family frienly restaurant with reasonable prices.  I am non anti independent restaurants.  I think everyone is really missing my point...except for RnR.

Seems like a decent sit down pizza place could be a hit with visiting families and local residents alike.  If I don't see one pop up soon I might just have to make it happen myself.

 

I'm really not militantly anti-chain at all.  It's cool that people like what they like.  The places that I live, work and visit tend be pretty light on the chains, and I still see zillions of strollers and kids and families, so it's just weird to me to hear chains, as opposed to casual eating places more generally, pitched as a necessity.

I had terrible service when I went to Golics, and Ive heard other people say the same.

I guess I don't see why everyone assumes that a Chili's would operate any differently than the other 'family friendly' restaraunts downtown.  Would they stay open on Sundays when others have found it not profitable to do so?  Perhaps, but I still think it all comes down to market conditions.  These businesses carefully analyze potential for profit and open in virtually every location they think they can turn a profit.

^ That's a good point HTs. Look at HOB which is a national chain and one of the anchors of E 4th. It has wonky hours too. It's not the same as a TGIF or Chili's but it's still a chain that responds to the patron  levels by adjusting it's hours.

 

Does Cleveland have more regional  chains such as the Stinkin' Lizard and Panini's that crowd out some of the national chains?

 

The Gospel on this subject according to CBC:

Probably one each of the biggy destination Chains (PF Changs, CCF, etc) at Tower City and (maybe) the galleria when paired with the already abundant indy and local joints, Morton's and possibly a few more mid-level chains would improve the appearance of DT/TC to outside vistors. They associate those place with so-called hip Lifestyle centers like Easton and Crocker Park.

 

 

 

I agree.  But I do worry whether they would have a WalMart type effect on our great local variety.  I guess the disagreement is whether the presence of such establishments would create an influx of visitors who would not visit DT in their absence, thereby creating new business as opposed to scalping business from other joints.  I doubt it.... at least not to any meaningful degree.  Once again, the question isn't whether they are allowed.  They are.  No disputing that.  The question is whether downtown would be better for it.

I agree hts, that that's the crux of the discussion/disagreement. I def do not think it would have a WalMart effect, and def believe that it would increase the number of visitors to downtown, and won't result in a loss of our local businesses, but instead will be alongside them. That, to me, means "better."

 

I know it's not a best-loved example here, but there are a thriving Aladdin's, Dave's Subs and Liquid Planet at Crocker Park. I'm pretty sure Mitchell's is also a local chain and we know Symon is putting in a B-spot there as well. Chains and locals CAN sit together and many people just see the area as "rich with businesses," they don't think oh, it has a lot of chains or oh, it has a lot of indies. And it does increase business. The argument about "character" in the case of crocker park is n/a of course, but you know, we need more character and more business downtown, even if it means more chains.

Funny I was thinking that this discussion was in response to increased number of DT vistors and guests when the Casino and MM/CC are completed. If the demand is there, I don't think the chains would hurt, especially if they are serving people that wouldn't otherwise go to our fine homegrown places. Right now I think a destination chain would just scalp business and hurt the existing places, some which have been depending too much on sports attendance these past few years.

 

 

 

 

 

 

What CBC said...

And I agree on that as well. I thought the discussion was all looking forward to restaurants like these possibly being completed around the time the casino/mm are complete, not NOW.

Good. now that's solved, where are we meeting for a drink?

 

Edit: I better get back on topic. I have a feeling Mayday has an ax graphic waiting for me when he gets home.

 

I'll meet for a drink anywhere not named Chlli's, Applebees, Cheesecake Factory, California Pizza Kitchen, Brio, Longhorn, Outback, Friday's, Ruby Tuesday's, Red Robin, IHOP, or Denny's.  And I will have ever lasting hate for anyone who even suggests Olive Garden. 

I suggest XYZ Tavern for a drink. I went there last night and it was FAB. They have an extensive and rapidly growing list of bourbon, scotch, rye and other whiskey and the servers are passionate and knowledgeable about the products. They also source a lot of their food locally and my meal there was very tasty. And VERY reasonably priced.

I can't imagine people that are so unadventurous that they can't try the burger at a local independent instead of a chain they've eaten at before would bother to bring their kids downtown at all, let alone shlep them around downtown looking for a TGIF.  They're going to stay in Avon or wherever.  Even if they come for, say, the aquarium, they're going to hustle those kids from minivan to destination to minivan as quickly as possible and beat a path for someplace with convenient (read free(read subsidized)) parking. 

 

Sorry, I can't imagine chains actually expanding the Downtown dining scene at all.  They'll only cannibalize it- whether it gets larger with new attractions or not.

As the original poster, can we take TGIF out of the equation? I never mentioned it. You can not compare Cheesecake Factory, Legal Seafood, P.F. Chang and Maggiano's to TGIF. I feel there is a strong market for upscale chains in a central location, not just the far east and far west sides of town. Also, how about a . TRADER JOE'S downtown? On a lower scale, how about a FIVE GUYS Burger Rest.?

I am 100% on board with a trader joes downtown

As the original poster, can we take TGIF out of the equation? I never mentioned it. You can not compare Cheesecake Factory, Legal Seafood, P.F. Chang and Maggiano's to TGIF. I feel there is a strong market for upscale chains in a central location, not just the far east and far west sides of town. Also, how about a . TRADER JOE'S downtown? On a lower scale, how about a FIVE GUYS Burger Rest.?

 

Judging from responses, it seems something akin to TGIF is what downtown is missing.  And I guarantee you that large upscale chains, service or retail, don't let 'strong market demands' go unfilled.  If it truly is there, beyond speculation, you will get your wish.

How do people eat PF Chang's when we have Pearl of the Orient?  Double the sodium, half the taste, double the price.

I hate to say this as I am a big supporter of local restaurants, but Pearl of the Orient is just awful. I finally quit going there a few years ago after several disappointing visits. It's also kind of dreary inside, dated, 1980s decor, and whether it should be this way or not, having a design team and millions of dollars of budget at a place like PF Chang's contributes to the dining experience for people, because it looks good.

 

Inside a PF Changs: http://www.desmoinesalive.com/photos/dsm/pf-changs-china-bistro-4.jpg

http://media.lasplash.com/2/P.F.Chang_s-Pic3.jpg

 

Inside Pearl: http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/a3/a9/4a/pearl-of-the-orient.jpg

I hate to say this as I am a big supporter of local restaurants, but Pearl of the Orient is just awful. I finally quit going there a few years ago after several disappointing visits. It's also kind of dreary inside, dated, 1980s decor, and whether it should be this way or not, having a design team and millions of dollars of budget at a place like PF Chang's contributes to the dining experience for people, because it looks good.

 

Inside a PF Changs: http://www.desmoinesalive.com/photos/dsm/pf-changs-china-bistro-4.jpg

http://media.lasplash.com/2/P.F.Chang_s-Pic3.jpg

 

Inside Pearl: http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/a3/a9/4a/pearl-of-the-orient.jpg

 

The interior of Pearl IS truly awful.  But I question the tastebuds of anyone who thinks PF Changs tastes better (not to mention the nutrition).

Didn't say they taste better, it's nothing but a salt/fat factory there and I don't eat at places like that.  Just tryign to give insight into why people choose that place over others. IMO it's no different than people who think Chick Fil A is SO SO AWESOME, SO MUCH MORE AWESOME THAN ANY OTHER FAST FOOD CHAIN and it's purely because of the high amounts of MSG and salt in their food. I mean, any place that I eat that makes my heart pound and gives me a migraine for at least a couple of hours because of the MSG, that's not for me, but most people's taste buds are manipulated to think that Extra! Salty! Flavor! Means Good Food!

^Yeah, but your preferences for land use are about as esoteric to most people as my preferences for non-chains.  That's my point.  You have your strong vision for how you want things and other people have theirs.  Geis certainly isn't preventing anyone from building a four story mixed used building somewhere else in the neighborhood if they want to.

 

Your analogies are... esoteric.

 

As the original poster, can we take TGIF out of the equation? I never mentioned it. You can not compare Cheesecake Factory, Legal Seafood, P.F. Chang and Maggiano's to TGIF. I feel there is a strong market for upscale chains in a central location, not just the far east and far west sides of town. Also, how about a . TRADER JOE'S downtown? On a lower scale, how about a FIVE GUYS Burger Rest.?

Judging from responses, it seems something akin to TGIF is what downtown is missing. 

 

I think everybody, including the entire chains-only crowd, would prefer everything Glenville listed over a TGIF.  It doesn't have to be low-end schlock to be a recognizable national brand. 

You mean like Morton's?

We're all aware of Morton's, but it fills a somewhat distinct and narrow market segment.  Clearly not the same segment as Cheesecake Factory, Longhorn, Five Guys, etc.  There's a pretty broad continuum between TGIF and Morton's.

 

How do people eat PF Chang's when we have Pearl of the Orient?  Double the sodium, half the taste, double the price.

 

Whatever one is "better" , I don't knpw.

One of them needs to get downtown. The homer...Pearl of The Orient... has had 3 decades to do so.

 

 

For many years and really not that long ago Cleveland's fanciest Chinese Restaurant, Lu Cuisine, was in the Halle Building.  It would have filled nicely this longing for a PF Changs in every respect but brand recognition.  Would be cool if an Asiatown entrepreneur introduced a fancier format downtown at some point.  Market's probably not there yet, but maybe someone will step up to claim some turf before the MM and Casino open.

Lu Cuisine was great, I remember that place!

We're all aware of Morton's, but it fills a somewhat distinct and narrow market segment.  Clearly not the same segment as Cheesecake Factory, Longhorn, Five Guys, etc.  There's a pretty broad continuum between TGIF and Morton's.

 

Maybe I'm out of touch with the chain world because I think of them all as the "sodium and fat factories" they are.  (Thanks, RnR, I like that one!)  But I would have placed Five Guys as being at or below a TGI Friday's (it's pretty much greasy fast food) and Longhorn a slight step up (there aren't many steak places at a lower level other than Ryan's, Sizzler, and Ponderosa).  Cheesecake Factory is in a whole different league than those other two (and fits in well with the others Glenville suggested) even though I personally greatly dislike the place.

 

One of them needs to get downtown. The homer...Pearl of The Orient... has had 3 decades to do so.

 

This is true.  I only used it as an example because it's currently a couple miles away from the PF Chang's on Chagrin.  If I could hand pick a Chinese restaurant for downtown, there are plenty of others.  I love Sun Luck Garden, but unfortunately I don't think Annie would want to open anything busier at this point.

Five Guys is sort of considered a step above typical fast food places, like In and Out on the W coast. I personally think they suck, but that's another story for another type of thread. But yeah, a step below a fridays and completely different type of restaurant. Again, big diff between counter service of any type and table service restaurants. In our market, I think we'd be MUCH more likely to see an Appelbees there than a Friday's. People seem to love Appelbees here.

 

^We got it!  :-(

In Steelyard.

 

 

 

 

About the only thing I enjoy at these places are the cheesy the birthday songs.  The bigger the variation, the more clapping, and cheering they mix in to the song, the more I like it.  If for nothing else, I just enjoy observing the group of servers they make do this..... with at least one mysteriously having a blast and another one utterly embarrassed.