Hi everyone

 

I'm currently thinking of moving too either Cleveland or Pittsburgh. I grew up in Cleveland but Pittsburgh is where there are a lot of economic growths from what I've heard. I'm a single male in his 20s looking for density and charm! Please tell me which one is better do you think, or at least tell me the pros and cons of each city! I really need your help makin' this important life-changin' decision! :whip: :whip: :whip:

This is going to get ugly

It really doesn't have to. if people are just objective (which is what I need) it will be fine :) I've had a hard time making this decision because friends and family from Cleveland are so anti-Pittsburgh that I can't get any REAL answers or facts, and vice-versa!

Well, what are you looking for exactly? Cleveland may be better for one person, whereas Pittsburgh may be better for another person.

Pittsburgh's infrastructure is one of the worst, big city congestion with smaller city amenities. I like our (Cleveland's) museum area much better, University circle is a very park like setting opposed to most of Pittsburgh's are right across the river from downtown and you feel very claustrophobic while you're there. Pittsburgh was ahead of Cleveland ditching the steel type production and moved towards technology based jobs, but now Cleveland is turning that corner, so that argument would have worked 5 or more years ago, but not so much today. They don't have NYC night life and neither does Cleveland so you're kind of tied in that area. Cost of living is much less in Cleveland. Food goes to Cleveland, parks go to Cleveland. AND, most important of all, if you live in Cleveland, you don't have to live near Steeler fans. Case closed.

Honestly, living in Pittsburgh you would do best to scope out both cities over a few days to see which fits better for you. Cleveland was not a good fit for me, Pittsburgh was.

 

Cleveland has better mass transit, lower cost of living (but seriously its not that much), and a gorgeous parks system.

Pittsburgh has better opportunities for employment, a more active downtown (again, still not by much) and Stadium district , and some awesome neighborhoods.

Both cities have excellent art options, great club districts for cities of their size, great hospitals, and wonderful Higher education options.

 

May I ask what field you're working in? And what type of neighborhood you want to live in?

If it were me, it would come down to which job paid more money or which job you would get more fulfillment out of.  That's what you're going to be doing for the majority of your time.  Do you have equivalent job offers in both Cleveland and Pittsburgh? Density and charm can be found in most large cities. 

Pittsburgh has better opportunities for employment, a more active downtown (again, still not by much) and Stadium district , and some awesome neighborhoods.

 

I'm not trying to start an argument.  There are things I really like about Pittsburgh.  Carson St. is like nothing we have in Cleveland.  However, I've found that on weekends, downtown Pittsburgh is completely dead (and almost downright scary).  I think Carson St. sucks any non-work hours activity out of downtown.

 

And I'm not sure I buy the employment "facts".  Aren't unemployment rates similar?  And Cleveland has many more tech jobs than people give it credit for.

 

Pittsburgh does have more density in pockets which makes for some great neighborhoods.

 

Both cities are great in their own way.  You have to just spend some time in each to see what you like better (I know that's easier said than done).

Kind of a tough question to answer unless you're pretty specific about what you like and don't like.  I've only been to Pittsburgh a couple of times, but my impression is that it has many more intact, walkable urban neighborhoods with balanced commercial strips and maybe better looking housing.  But Cleveland has a big lake and more prominent institutional arts if those are important to you.

Pittsburgh.  Hands down.  More vibrant and more aesthetically pleasing.  Plus the hills and the associated urban geography is very interesting and beautiful. 

Pittsburgh has us beat for charm for sure.  While a lot of their commercial districts are pretty architecturally, I find they can be a bit vanilla.  Then again, we don't really have any large, intact commercial districts in the Cleve.  Restaurants, no question we win that one if that matters to you (it matters the most to me).  Cleveland definitely feels more diverse (is more diverse?), which I think is nice.  Although I suppose if I were a young man, as opposed to an ancient thirty-something, I would opt to live somewhere else for a while if I'd spent my whole life in one city.  I just might not choose Pittsburgh.  Have you considered Wheeling or Alliquippa? Just kidding.  Seriously, though, everybody in Pittsburgh is an ugly hillbilly.  Still kind of joking.

Urban aesthetics, employment opportunities, cultural <ahem> 'amenities', yeah, they're all nice. But let's face it, you are required to base your decision on whether or not you relate better to this guy

 

 

or these guys

 

 

I hate appalachia, so Pittsburgh wouldn't be on my wish list even if I was considering moving.  Point is, there are some cultural differences you have to account for.  Good luck making your choice.  The only advise I can give is that if it is a close call, family should be the deciding factor.

 

My boss is from Pittsburgh.  I showed him this picture and he said "the funny part is that's probably a woman."

I always find these thread kinda of funny.  A bunch of "strangers" giving advice to another relative stranger (no matter how much you tell us about yourself) about such an important decision.

 

  I agree with one thing that was posted above...if it is a close call, family is the most important determination.  You never know how much you appreciate them until they are not around.  I never thought leaving college I would end up living in Cleveland the  rest of my life but when I look back on it, the family thing was so important (something you don't realize when you are young).  Not only the love and support but small example...I wish had a nickel every time during the past 30 years I had my mom or dad come over to my house to wait for a repair man or important delivery for which I could not stay home.  Try getting a new friend in another town to do that for you.  Again a small thing but stuff like that adds up over the years to make you life so much easier or more aggravating. (and don't get me started on all the repairs around the house Uncle Frankie and Uncle Tony had done for me or the ride at 2 in the morning 'cause my car broke down).  Again sometime you really don't appreciate stuff like this when you are young.

I haven't been to Pittsburgh recently, but I have also heard that its downtown can be pretty dead at times

I like both cities. They are not at all the same. One of the most important things to consider is terrain. Do you like steep hills and mountains or do you like flatland? Yes, each has its own perks. Hills and mountains = very beautiful and offer some amazing views. But jogging, biking, and snow travel can be quite difficult. As for museums, both cities are great. Both cities have their professional sports teams, both have a downtown and a cultural area (University Circle and Oakland). Good neighborhoods in both cities - Squirrel Hill and Oakland for Pitts and Tremont and Ohio City for Cleveland as just 2 examples. Hands down, Oakland is one of the coolest places anywhere - an extremely urban cultural and college center! However, the big difference, where I believe Cleveland wins, is the suburbs. Cleveland Heights, Lakewood, and countless others exist in addition to the city, whereas Pittsburgh dries up once you leave the city limits. I wouldn't say one is much better than the other, as both are great places, so it comes down to visiting both and making a personal decision on preference and comfortability. I have always found the tunnels, the incline, and some of the bridges to be awesome in Pittsburgh, but the fact that there isn't much of a grid system and it's very easy to get lost as extremely frustrating.

I hate appalachia, so Pittsburgh wouldn't be on my wish list even if I was considering moving.  Point is, there are some cultural differences you have to account for.  Good luck making your choice.  The only advise I can give is that if it is a close call, family should be the deciding factor.

 

Although Pittsburgh is in Appalachia the Pittsburgh region is not rural Appalachia - its similar to every other metro in the region.  To say that there are some cultural things you have to account for in Pittsburgh with regard to it being in Appalachia is quite misleading.  It's not Pikeville, Kentucky. 

^^^A former neighbor is from Pittsburgh and he moved backed about 3 years ago after living in Chicago and Cleveland.  I keep in touch and recall him saying the same thing about downtown Pittsburgh after 5:00.  (although Cleveland can have the same issue).

What are you planning to do, education/work wise? What's your background?

 

Economy: Slight advantage for Pittsburgh, significant advantage in tech/IT; Cleveland better in manufacturing, legal, medical

Weather: Pittsburgh gets less snow, Cleveland gets more sun

Culture: Entirely opinion based, see for yourself.

Cost: Cleveland is slightly cheaper, IIRC

Downtown: Pittsburgh is better, but a lot of stuff is changing in Cleveland (good and bad)

Surroundings: Cleveland has Lake Erie; Pittsburgh has the hills/mountains

 

I would say Cleveland has excellent suburbs with excellent public schools, if that's a concern. Also, the Cleveland/Cuyahoga libraries are unusually good and the metroparks are great, but I don't know anything about Pittsburgh burbs/libraries/parks.

I hate appalachia, so Pittsburgh wouldn't be on my wish list even if I was considering moving.  Point is, there are some cultural differences you have to account for.  Good luck making your choice.  The only advise I can give is that if it is a close call, family should be the deciding factor.

 

Although Pittsburgh is in Appalachia the Pittsburgh region is not rural Appalachia - its similar to every other metro in the region.  To say that there are some cultural things you have to account for in Pittsburgh with regard to it being in Appalachia is quite misleading.  It's not Pikeville, Kentucky. 

 

I never suggested it was rural, but I disagree with the rest of your post.  There are culturakl differences you have to account for when deciding which side of Cleveland, or Cincy, to settle down on.  Certainly, there are cultural differences between Pitt and Cleveland.

Hi everyone

 

I'm currently thinking of moving too either Cleveland or Pittsburgh. I grew up in Cleveland but Pittsburgh is where there are a lot of economic growths from what I've heard. I'm a single male in his 20s looking for density and charm! Please tell me which one is better do you think, or at least tell me the pros and cons of each city! I really need your help makin' this important life-changin' decision! :whip: :whip: :whip:

 

With our leadership in Ohio, I think anyone under 30 should leave the state. I wish I were joking.

 

Do you have any babies? Are you paying child support or have any custody issues? Do you have family and/or like your family? Those are factors to think about too.

Honestly, I've never understood why many people compare Cleveland and Pittsburgh, and claim they are very similar. IMO, Pittsburgh feels a whole lot similar to Cincinnati than Cleveland, although there are some distinct cultural differences. Cleveand and Pittsburgh feel like two completely different cities. There are things I prefer of both Cleveland and Pittsburgh. I like the density and archietecture of Pittsburgh. There also seems to be more "functional" ethnic and better overall inner city neighborhoods in Pittsburgh, whereas in Cleveland, inside the city appears to suffer from more blight and abandonment.

 

As for Cleveland, the residents seem to have a more resilient attitiude about their city. The lake is a huge bonus. Cleveland lacks the Appalachian culture that permeates Pittsburgh metro, and I'm also not a fan of the "Pittsburghese" that can still be heard there. Overall, Cleveland has more culture, better amenities, is more diverse, and does not feel geographically isolated like Pittsburgh does. Pittsburgh to me has always felt like it could be the capital of West Virginia, which is not attractive to me.

 

My vote would go to Cleveland.

^No

 

I'm really just looking for decent neighborhoods with good, older housing stock (I don't wanna live in anything newer than 1960 tbh). also I'm gay so I have to wonder which city would be better in that regard. the job part doesn't really matter, I can find a job in my field in either city really easily.

 

does Pittsburgh have the Detroitification that Cleveland has in so many neighborhoods?

 

the thing I worry about with Pittsburgh is that it feels too small-time for me. it's very dense but a lot of the time it looks like I'm in some river town in West Virgina or something, there's not much of a ~big city feel~ I guess, but I could be wrong (and I'd love to be corrected if that's the case)

 

also FOOD is important since I live to eat. But I think CLeveland has Pittsburgh beat in that area tbqh!

 

thanks for all your nice replies everyone, if you have an experiences or knowledge please continue to share because I haven't made up my mind yet!!

I love Pittsburgh. I love Cleveland. I like Pittsburgh's narrow streets and few surface parking lots. I think Pittsburgh's downtown is more active during the day, but Cleveland's is more active on the weekends. Carson Street is awesome, as is the Mount Lebanon area, as is Oakland. But I also love Little Italy/University Circle, Tremont, Ohio City, Cleveland Heights and Lakewood. The tech sectors in both cities are growing very quickly, and both cities are working in collaboration with the Youngstown area as part of the TechBelt Initiative.

 

I think it comes down to personal choice. Do you love hills and valleys and narrow streets and rivers? Or do you like more space with wide streets, flat lands and a big lake? Try both cities and see what you like.

 

Problem for me is, I love both cities!!

If you're gay, I would say go with Cleveland. I can't really speak for how living as homosexual would be in any city, but I'm under the impression that Clevelanders are a lot more open and accepting in that regard. That's not to say that Pittsburgh is a homophobic city, but being located in Appalachia, I would assume that you would probably not be able to live as comfortably there as you could in Cleveland.

I hate appalachia, so Pittsburgh wouldn't be on my wish list even if I was considering moving.  Point is, there are some cultural differences you have to account for.  Good luck making your choice.  The only advise I can give is that if it is a close call, family should be the deciding factor.

 

Although Pittsburgh is in Appalachia the Pittsburgh region is not rural Appalachia - its similar to every other metro in the region.  To say that there are some cultural things you have to account for in Pittsburgh with regard to it being in Appalachia is quite misleading.  It's not Pikeville, Kentucky. 

 

I never suggested it was rural, but I disagree with the rest of your post.  There are culturakl differences you have to account for when deciding which side of Cleveland, or Cincy, to settle down on.  Certainly, there are cultural differences between Pitt and Cleveland.

 

I know but what I said was that cultural difference isn't infused with Appalachian heritage like you suggested. 

Honestly, I've never understood why many people compare Cleveland and Pittsburgh, and claim they are very similar. IMO, Pittsburgh feels a whole lot similar to Cincinnati than Cleveland, although there are some distinct cultural differences. Cleveand and Pittsburgh feel like two completely different cities.

 

Cleveland and Pittsburgh look very different from one another, but definitely have a lot in common in terms of economic history, demographics, culture and the like.  I think the comparison is pretty natural.

Detroitification - the east side of Cleveland looks like Detroit in a few places, yes, but the west side/downtown does not. The suburbs aren't THAT far away and they're nice, and you can get to some of them by mass transit. And even the east side has university circle, little italy, case western, etc...

 

If you can easily get a job in either place, I'd say Cleveland. We have a diverse/developed food culture and arts scene. The gay factor, I really don't know, but I think Clevelanders are pretty open-minded in regards to lifestyle. I know we're hosting the 'Gay Games' in 2014, haha...I'm sure most young people in both cities are, at worst, apathetic towards lifestyle.

 

Old housing stock, yeah, you need to check out Ohio City and Tremont. Most of the older houses have been lovingly cared for and are still owner occupied. I live in a converted loft directly across from the building where my grandfather worked in the 40's/50's, which is now luxury apartments, a historical oddity that I enjoy. And the West Side Market is right there. On the east side, there are many older homes in Cleveland Heights, which is where many of the professors at Case Western live...I can't speak for Pittsburgh, but if your main things are food and historical homes...Cleveland has you covered.

Honestly, I've never understood why many people compare Cleveland and Pittsburgh, and claim they are very similar. IMO, Pittsburgh feels a whole lot similar to Cincinnati than Cleveland, although there are some distinct cultural differences. Cleveand and Pittsburgh feel like two completely different cities.

 

Cleveland and Pittsburgh look very different from one another, but definitely have a lot in common in terms of economic history, demographics, culture and the like.  I think the comparison is pretty natural.

 

I just don't see of "feel" the similarities. I can agree on the economic history since both cities were industrial powerhouses, but I don't really see it with the demographics and culture. Pittsburgh does not really feel ethnically diverse (although more than Cinci), especially once you get out of the city into the burbs and surrounding areas. I could be mistaken, but I think I remember reading somewhere that the Pittsburgh metro is or was ranked as one of the "whitest" top metro areas. I don't get that same homogeneous feel in the Cleveland area that I get in Pittsburgh. I seem to remember Cleveland being ranked considerably lower on that same poll, with Cincinnati being very close to Pittsburgh.

I wouldn't let the gay thing sway you one way or the other, as both are just fine for that. In the long term, I'd say Pittsburgh being located in PA speaks to better prospects for marriage rights than Cleveland being located in OH (PA being marginally more liberal). That's probably the biggest difference. (I am gay too, btw.)

 

I can't really speak to the rest. I like both cities. I can say I would prefer Pittsburgh, but that's me. And family in Cleveland might sway me the other way.

It should come down to the job. Both cities have the charms and downfalls, but the job is the most important thing. So if you have better networking connections to one over the other, then that should be your choice.

I just don't see of "feel" the similarities. I can agree on the economic history since both cities were industrial powerhouses, but I don't really see it with the demographics and culture. Pittsburgh does not really feel ethnically diverse (although more than Cinci), especially once you get out of the city into the burbs and surrounding areas. I could be mistaken, but I think I remember reading somewhere that the Pittsburgh metro is or was ranked as one of the "whitest" top metro areas. I don't get that same homogeneous feel in the Cleveland area that I get in Pittsburgh. I seem to remember Cleveland being ranked considerably lower on that same poll, with Cincinnati being very close to Pittsburgh.

 

Pittsburgh is definitely a lot whiter, but like Cleveland, its white population is awfully heavy on democrats, union members, slavs and Catholics (to my knowledge, Cincy's white population is heavy in only one of those groups).  In that respect, Pittsburgh is very much part of rust belt/Great Lakes club.  I don't know how that translates into "feel", so I hear what you're saying, but they are real similarities none the less.  I suppose proximity is the real reason they compared a lot though, which is also natural.

As others have said, it depends on what you're looking for.

 

Neighborhoods: Pittsburgh.  Shadyside, Squirrel Hill, Southside, Mexican War Streets, Lawrenceville, Oakland, Regent Square, Manchester, the list goes on.  The reason Cleveland has some wonderful, intact inner-ring suburbs such as Lakewood and Cleveland Heights for vibrancy is due to the lack of active and/or intact commercial districts within the city except for a few notable exceptions everybody knows (Ohio City, Tremont, Cudell/Clifton/Edgewater, Shaker Square/Larchmere).

 

Downtown: Pittsburgh.  Cleveland perhaps has a more active downtown on weekends (though honestly not noticably greater than Pittsburgh's weekend activity in their downtown) but overall you got to give this to Pittsburgh. 

 

Culture: Tie.  Both cities have world-reknowned institutions, established arts through ole' John D. and Andy, world-class musuems, etc.

 

Ethnic Diversity: Cleveland.  Pittsburgh has a nice ethnic diversity in terms of Europeans (Italians, Polish, etc) but Cleveland has more "round the world" folks shown in AsiaTownVillageLand, Puerto Rican Clark-Fulton, Lorain Avenue, etc.  Cleveland also has a significant presence of African-Americans that Pittsburgh really doesn't have.  I will say this: Pittsburgh has larger visible, intact ethnic neighborhoods that Cleveland doesn't have (Bloomfield vs. LIC is no contest, for example) but most (if not all) are Euro-centric.

 

Restaurants: Cleveland. Though I wouldn't call Cleveland a "restaurant city," it certainly has more options than Pittsburgh.  Pittsburgh has more unique local cuisine (Primanti's, the O, the Mad Mex group with Nakama, etc) but Cleveland has better quality restaurants (Pittsburgh has no Lola, for example).

 

Walkability: Pittsburgh.  For obvious reasons: connectivity, density, etc.

 

Transportation: Cleveland for rail, Pittsburgh for buses.  Cleveland has a more connected airport.  I'm presuming Pittsburgh has better Amtrak service.

 

Metropolitan Area: Cleveland for inner-ring and outer-ring, Pittsburgh for middle-ring.  Cleveland has outstanding inner-ring suburbs (probably due to the "Detroitification" of the city, as you put it) such as Lakewood, Shaker Heights, Cleveland Heights, etc.  Pittsburgh's inner-ring suburbs are a bit more poor (Mt. Oliver, Swissvale, Braddock) but the middle-ring and outer-ring are more "interesting" than Cleveland's (Mt. Lebanon, Sewickley, Dormont, and out to the Laurel Highlands).  But then outer-outer Cleveland has some nice ones (Chagrin Falls, Hudson, Medina, etc).  So really, it's a wash.

 

Weather: Pittsburgh, IMO.  There's not as much of that lakefront snow (unless that's your thing).

 

Location: Pittsburgh.  Not too far from the East Coast (particularly Washington DC), and still close to the 3C's.  I think due to Cleveland having, well ya know, a giant lake to the north of it, kind of makes the city feel a bit more isolated from everyone sans Detroit or Buffalo/Toronto (and obviously Pittsburgh and Columbus).

 

Nightlife: I'm going to give this a tie.  Cleveland seems to have more options for more types of folks but Pittsburgh seems to be VISIBLY more vibrant (ANYONE can take a walk along Carson Street or Forbes and see this).  I think Pittsburgh is more "coffee shop" culture as well (Lawrenceville, East Liberty, and Shadyside come to mind).  Both are heavy-drinking bar cities so that's a pointless comparison.  There's a reason why this whole Steelers/Browns thing still exists.

 

Geography: Tie.  Cleveland has the Lake and the beautiful valleys of NE Ohio.  Pittsburgh has the hills and the Laural Highlands.  I think Pittsburgh is a more beautiful city, Cleveland is a more beautiful metropolitan area (landscaping-wise).

 

Parks: Pittsburgh.  Cleveland has no grand park such as Frick or Schenley.  It has an Emerald Necklace park system with Rockefeller through Rocky River but it isn't comparable overall to Pittsburgh's grand-scaled parks and more importantly, pocket parks.  You can look to Pittsburgh's rehabbed Market Square versus Cleveland's horrific Public Square to see the micro-difference.  Though I'm presuming Public Square is being rehabbed thanks to Dan Gilbert with a giant buffet and Nobu!  And both have outstanding recreational areas outside of their metro (Laurel Highlands and Cuyahoga Valley Nat'l Park).

 

Markets: Tie.  Cleveland's Westside Market and Pittsburgh's Strip District are one in the same.

 

People: Really, I mean, for real?  They both have the artistic, the hipsters, and trash, the ghetto, the blue-collar, the liberal, the conservative, the soccer moms, the Glenn Becks, the Dennis K's, the Patricia Heatons, the Mr. Rogers.  I mean, even taking in cultural differences, locations, etc they both are generally the same legacy from billionaire's past folks.  Only people from either city will tell you "they're different!"  Aside from Yinzers and Needing-Afrin Nasal tones, they both are generally the same.

 

Cost of Living: This is the Rustbelt, not Marin County.  No noticable difference except you can't get beer in Pennsylvania anywhere except for a beer distributor or bar and you have to get car inspections and higher gas taxes and...

 

Economy: Pittsburgh is where Cleveland will be.  That said, neither are going to outshine each other in this department.

 

As far as specific questions:

 

Pittsburgh have the Detroitification that Cleveland has in so many neighborhoods?

 

No.  Homewood and Manchester have some bombed-out blocks but nothing like sections of Cleveland's eastside.

 

the thing I worry about with Pittsburgh is that it feels too small-time for me. it's very dense but a lot of the time it looks like I'm in some river town in West Virgina or something, there's not much of a ~big city feel~ I guess, but I could be wrong (and I'd love to be corrected if that's the case)

 

Pittsburgh has areas that feel big city (Oakland, Southside, Shadyside, East Liberty, Squirrel Hill) and has areas that feel small-town (West End, Troy Hill, Polish Hill, etc).  In all honesty, so does Cleveland (sections of Tremont and Ohio City, for example, feel like Vermilion or Granville).  That's a plus for both cities.

 

 

Buuuuut, to answer your overall question, it doesn't matter.  You have to go to both cities and feel them out.  If one feels better than the other, then go with your instinct.

Pittsburgh: The most Southern Midwestern City on the East Coast.

I've lived in Pittsburgh (Brentwood/Carrick now) for about 4 years..here's some answers for everyone:

Downtown: has stronger retail than Cleveland (including Saks, Burlington and Macy's, Brooks brothers, Larrimore's etc.) at the same time, it does tend to dry up pretty much after 5. This is changing now, as Market Square is completed with its public space, PPU is expanding and renovating things around their urban campus, Point State Park is also almost done with its reno, and the changes around Consol are also breathing life into that part of downtown. Another factor is that the Gateway Center area is under construction and there are parts of downtown where the development bug hasn’t’ hit yet (Old Lord and Taylor) North Shore is almost an extension of downtown, with PNC Park, Heinz Field, The Warhol, The Carnegie Science Center, Stage AE-and when the T (light rail) extension opens (I do believe late this year) it will be.

Transportation: Cleveland wins. Our airport was decimated after US airways basically skipped town and our flight selection was seriously reduced. It's not awful by any means (we have SF and LA service, plus non-stop Paris), but not as extensive as Cleveland. Mass Transit wise we struggle too-many legacy costs to the Port Authority have screwed with the budgets, plus the new state admin have cut funding. If you live on a main thouroughfare or on the T lines, you'll be ok though. Our roads suck.

Neighborhoods: Pittsburgh has so many different awesome neighborhoods...Shadyside, Oakland, Greenfield, Squirrel Hill, Bloomfield, Lawrenceville, even awesome working-class neighborhoods: Carrick, The Alleghenys, and neighborhoods on the upswing: The Hill District, East Liberty (sliberty), Uptown. There are some bad neighborhoods, but these are on the extreme east and west ends of town. The inner-ring boroughs- Wilkinsburg, Dormont, Castle Shannon, Brentwood, Baldwin, Mt. Lebanon are so urbanized they feel like a part of Pittsburgh.  From what everyone has been telling me, it’s cheaper to buy a home than rent…the housing stock in town and in the inner ring is OLD.

Food: I have the opinion that you can get good food in any city you go to. Pittsburgh has some really awesome Thai places and Noodle houses, and sandwich joints, yet I cant find a good rib shack here. We have 1 TJ’s and 1 Whole Foods, but each chain will opening second locations later this year.  Farmer’s Markets are everywhere in town.

Race etc,: As homogenized Pittsburgh can be, I have never seen as many interracial couples as I have until I moved here. Same with Gay couples, the thing is not all of Pittsburgh is as friendly to either. The Pittsburghese? Honestly, it's kinda charming-to a point. For some reason, I find it hilariously cute when adults that have been educated try to fight it out of their bodies but can’t and let the occasional “yinz” slip.

Parks: Metroparks is a more comprehensive system, but don’t sleep on Schenley Park. We also have the National Aviary, and Phipps Conservatory.

Everything that people are saying is right about family- keep that in mind when you make a decision….but don’t let that be the only reason why you make said decision.

 

Downtown: Pittsburgh.  Cleveland perhaps has a more active downtown on weekends (though honestly not noticably greater than Pittsburgh's weekend activity in their downtown) but overall you got to give this to Pittsburgh. 

 

I agree with much of what you said ColDayMan except for the downtowns.  Pittsburgh is completely dead on weekends, even when there's a Pirates game going on.  There is absolutely nothing like the Warehouse District or E. 4th in downtown Pittsburgh.  I do have to say that I love the architecture and density of downtown Pittsburgh, though.

^I guess it depends if you prefer nightlife or retail.  I'd take a downtown department store over West 6th, but that's just me in all my mid 30s lameness.

Well, honestly, I'm going by what I've personally seen.  Like I said, Cleveland probably has a better downtown on Saturday night, but overall I don't see a huge difference overall.  Both downtowns are remarkably dead on Sundays, Saturday afternoons about the same, and on weekdays, Pittsburgh's beats Cleveland's in overall foot traffic + Market Square.  I give Pittsburgh the edge overall due to retail and "feel" (though Cleveland's Warehouse District has larger-scaled restaurants, perhaps more "destination" places like the Chophouse and that nifty Brazilian steakhouse + the East 4th Street area with the bowling alley).  Then again, Pittsburgh doesn't have a Tower City nor Cleveland doesn't have a Market Square.

^I guess it depends if you prefer nightlife or retail.  I'd take a downtown department store over West 6th, but that's just me in all my mid 30s lameness.

 

I agree, but I honestly don't know how Saks survives downtown there.

 

Here are their hours:

 

HOURS

Monday - Wednesday - 10 AM - 6 PM

Thursday - Friday - 10 AM - 7 PM

Saturday - 10 AM - 6 PM

Sunday - 12 PM - 5 PM

 

Also, look up "Saks Pittsburgh lease" on Google and you'll see that it's very likely they won't be downtown in a year and a half (rumor has it that they may move to the Ross Park Mall).

 

Pittsburgh bent over backwards to bring four department stores downtown a while back, but two closed rather quickly, and now it looks like Macy's may be the lone survivor.  Outside of this, there's not much retail to speak of in either city.

Then again, Pittsburgh doesn't have a Tower City nor Cleveland doesn't have a Market Square.

 

Actually, Cleveland does have a Market Square! :)

Oy! LOL!

^^^I have a vague memory from 4-5 years ago (I use to read the Post on line often in those days) of the city going nuts due to all the retail closings (if I recall Lord and Taylor was one of the department stores) after they had bent over backwards to draw the stores in, and what the city was going to do to turn the situation around...based on what jam40jeff states the city has not been that successful with the turn around (which of course is not unusual in most major American cities outside of 9-10, especially in terms of department stores).

 

I imagine the Macy's is in the former Kaufmann's which is an institutution so it may be safe.  Too bad about Saks.

I imagine the Macy's is in the former Kaufmann's which is an institutution so it may be safe.

 

Likely yes, but Dillards in Higbees was just as much of an "institution" and we all know how well that went for Cleveland.

^Fortunately for Pittsburgh, Macy's has a slightly better philosophy (just slightly) when it comes to downtown department stores.  I believe Dillard's decided to go strictly suburban a while ago...if I recall correctly, a while back, St. Louis had the last downtown Dillards.  Maybe I am wrong.  Is anybody aware of another (or if Dillards is still in downtown St. Louis)(and not to start going off topic).

What exactly do you guys mean by "Detroitification"?

 

The only "Detroitification" I see in Cleveland is on several commercial/industrial streets. But you wont find what you find in Detroit's residential streets.

 

This kind of destruction/abandonment doesn't exactly exist the same way in Cleveland. You may see boarded up houses, or houses falling apart, but you dont see the complete destruction of neighborhoods that you see in Detroit

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Detroit&aq=&sll=41.883429,-87.6618&sspn=0.030545,0.075531&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Detroit,+Wayne,+Michigan&ll=42.337928,-83.100843&spn=0.015163,0.037766&t=k&z=15

You may see boarded up houses, or houses falling apart, but you [don't] see the complete destruction of neighborhoods that you see in Detroit

 

I added "don't" in there because I'm assuming that's what you meant.

 

You're correct.  There's only a few streets in Cleveland that look anything like the square miles of complete abandonment found in Detroit.  However, I would still say there are more depressed urban areas in Cleveland.  Pittsburgh still has its fair share, though, such as the area west and north of the Mexican War Streets and the Hill District.

^ Thanks I fixed that.

 

I feel that Cleveland has a better housing stock then Pittsburgh from what ive seen. Would you agree?

I feel that Cleveland has a better housing stock then Pittsburgh from what ive seen. Would you agree?

 

To a certain degree.  Both cities have areas with nice older homes.  Cleveland has nothing like the Mexican War Streets.  However, Pittsburgh also seems to have a higher proportion of what feels like cheap Appalachian wood frame housing, like something you'd see in an old mountain town in West Virginia.  Cleveland's housing stock overall feel "sturdier" or something, and our inner ring suburban housing stock blows theirs away.  But we also have more areas with abandonment than Pittsburgh.

 

So I guess overall I'm trying to say it's really hard to objectively say one's better than the other.  They're just different.

 

I like Pittsburgh, but I always end up liking Cleveland even more when I come back from there.  I can definitely see why some people could prefer one over the other.  For me, I prefer Cleveland.

Yes, I am very jealous of every city that has dense urban neighborhoods like that. It seems like for some reason great lakes cities didn't develop like that, which is sad cause Id love to see a neighborhood like that here in Cleveland.

Macy's is the old Kaufmann's flasgship. There's a phrase that's said among the old folks, "Meet under Kaufmann's clock" which is the ornate clock on the corner near the main entrance. Its rumored that they'll cut the number of floors down (its something like 9-10 floors) and lease out the top.

 

Saks is a draw as it's the only one in the market-and its obviously smaller than other Saks stores. I read somewhere that when Nordstrom came to Ross last year, there's something in the lease that prevents Saks from coming there.

 

Lord and Taylor used to be in an old Mellon Bank across the street but they moved in for only a few years and then were gone rather quickly. (This isn't totally a Pittsburgh thing, it was done after the chain closed a lot of stores) If i were mayor Ravenstahl, i would throw money at Saks to take the old Lord and Taylor/Mellon Bank and demolish/redevelop the current Saks store...its kinda ugly IMHO.

Lazarus also built a new store downtown that only stayed open for a few years, it has been since redeveloped.

 

Joseph Horne's Building has also been redeveloped.

 

Trying to find out what the Burlington Coat Factory used to be.