I'm not sure if it was on this forum, could have been skyscraperpage, but recently someone mentioned that Cleveland feels like its on the edge of a boom and they compared it to Philadelphia in the late 80's. I had no idea what the reference to Philadelphia meant so I ignored it, then I saw this:

 

 

 

 

 

Awesome.  Thanks for posting.

interesting, looks like one developer believed in philly the most and made a big difference.

 

agree cle's dt seems on the edge of a center city type revival. i hope so!

Center City exploded around the same time Cleveland's "first" revival came about, in the early 1990's.  Somehow, it maintained the momentum we lost.  Also keep in mind that a big reason why there was so much construction all of a sudden is that someone 'broke the seal' on that silly non-binding pact that nothing would be built so tall that William Penn could not look out upon his forest.

It maintained it due to Center City's explosion of residential growth.  While Cleveland is making strides, I believe Center City's current population is around 95,000ish.

doesn't hurt it gets the majority of the '6th borough' hubris lately too.

 

thats ny's way of giving philly notice, even while damning it with faint praise, so they must be doing something right.  :laugh:

Being wedged between the nation's governmental and financial capitals doesn't hurt.

Reasons for our squandered momentum aren't that hard to identify.  But momentum is picking up again in Cleveland and we're seeing more hits than misses recently. 

It maintained it due to Center City's explosion of residential growth.  While Cleveland is making strides, I believe Center City's current population is around 95,000ish.

 

I think that depends on where you are drawing the boundaries.  It definitely has a nice population and certainly outnumbers ours by a good bit, but I don't think you can really compare "Center City" with "Downtown Cleveland" unless you were to include downtown's surrounding neighborhoods (OC, Tremont, Asiatown, etc.)  I thought Center City's central business district only had something around 30,000 residents, which would still be 3x any of Ohio's.  Of course, Philly itself is fairly larger than any of the 3C's

It maintained it due to Center City's explosion of residential growth.  While Cleveland is making strides, I believe Center City's current population is around 95,000ish.

 

I think that depends on where you are drawing the boundaries.  It definitely has a nice population and certainly outnumbers ours by a good bit, but I don't think you can really compare "Center City" with "Downtown Cleveland" unless you were to include downtown's surrounding neighborhoods (OC, Tremont, Asiatown, etc.)  I thought Center City's central business district only had something around 30,000 residents, which would still be 3x any of Ohio's.  Of course, Philly itself is fairly larger than any of the 3C's

 

Center City itself extends to South Street up to the Vine Street Expressway.  While the actual Central Business District may have around 20,000ish, that is irrelevant if anybody knows Philadelphia much like saying Midtown Manhattan "only" has 45,000 residents.  The fact that the "CBD" (if it even exists in the traditional sense around Market and Broad) flows seemlessly into the various sub-neighborhoods of Center City (Queens Village, G-Ho, Society Hill, Old City, Chinatown, etc) gives the "downtown" a much larger population support than a more fractured downtown Cleveland, who has psychological/geographical barriers with Ohio City, Tremont, or even "AsiaTown" due to either urban renewal or that whole Cuyahoga Valley thing.  For a Philadelphia example, Ohio City and Tremont would be akin to University City or Spruce Hill.

While I think Cleveland is on the edge of better days, I can't really compare it so much to Philly as I could say Detroit, Buffalo, or maybe St Louis.  Philly has a completely different architecture when walking along Chesnut or South etc, and the people give it a differnt vibe.  Very much East Coastish.  Even though it is about 90 miles southwest of New York, for some reason I have that New York feel when I'm there.  Being between Washington and New York has obviously helped Philly maintain the momentum.  I will say, Cleveland has the opportunity to rebound as Philly did.  Even if it rebounds as much, or more, it still will not have the same feel as Philly.  If it did rebound as much, it would have moreso a Chicago feel rather than a Philly feel.  I would say Cincy more than Cleveland has a Philly feel to it.  Alot of Cleveland's original building stock was lost and the streets are much wider.  In addition, as Colday said, the city does not flow together as Philly does.

A good parallel for Cleveland is actually Milwaukee.  The various valleys, the industrial central valley, similar architecture, grand-scaled downtown, arcades, numerous residential projects along bluffs and downtown rehabs, both have outstanding warehouse districts, great public markets, etc.  Milwaukee has the edge with the lakefront park system and "Eastside" Milwaukee is more cohesive than, say, the Ohio City/Detroit-Superior/Tremont area, but perhaps Cleveland parallels the Brew City? 

I think there are parallels and I've said this before.  The souls of Cleveland and Philly are very close.  They had a Mayor and Governor who wanted to make Phily Pennsylvania's "First City".

 

 

In order to revive downtown/Center City Philly they sacrificed the majority of neighborhoods.  Outside of CC most of Philly is an armpit.

 

 

Over the past 10 years I've watched CC improve and the Convention Center was a huge catalyst.  It brought several new hotels and restaurants = jobs, not to mention they have a better rail transit system than Cleveland and airport with direct flights to Europe.

 

 

Cleveland is about 5-8 years behind Philly and DC when it comes to things but as those cities out-price people, we become the obvious option and it's only a matter of time before we're back in the big ball game.

In order to revive downtown/Center City Philly they sacrificed the majority of neighborhoods.  Outside of CC most of Philly is an armpit.

 

Now you know that's just wrong.  Sure, Philadelphia has MANY undesirable areas (Logan, Mantua, Southwest, half of North Philly) but the majority of Philadelphia is fine.  Many of it unremarkable (Northeast Philly, for example) but it isn't an "armpit" by any stretch, Mr. Glenville.

In order to revive downtown/Center City Philly they sacrificed the majority of neighborhoods.  Outside of CC most of Philly is an armpit.

 

Now you know that's just wrong.  Sure, Philadelphia has MANY undesirable areas (Logan, Mantua, Southwest, half of North Philly) but the majority of Philadelphia is fine.  Many of it unremarkable (Northeast Philly, for example) but it isn't an "armpit" by any stretch, Mr. Glenville.

 

Ok I was exaggerating a bit.  However, I went to a party in N. Philly. sh!t, I'm Puerto Rican and those mofo's made me keep my guard up the entire time.  As soon as we passed Temple I was like WTF!

Well yeah, but you should know to not judge a city by going to one neighborhood.

My entire family is from Phillya and I go there often to visit.  The standards just seem lower in Philly.  People don't expect as much as far as housing.  Armpit, no..... but unspectacular is an understatement IMO.

Sure, Philadelphia has a massive internal negative image problem (Negadephia, which I'm sure you're aware of) so apathy is quite common among locals.

Don't you mean Killadelphia?  LOL

Or Filthydelphia? Actually, I like a lot of Philadelphia, but I also see a lot of missed opportunities such as the lack of pedestrian friendly development along the Broad Street rail line -- outside of Center City. The abandonment along that corridor is immense and the sections were redevelopment has occurred is low-density/single-use structures set back from the street. Very puzzling.

 

And yes, North Philadelphia is a mess.

 

But I do like the areas around Sharon Hill and the University City section plus the neighborhoods west of there are pretty decent. Yet none compares to the south side, between the stadiums and Center City, mostly east of Broad. I love that area!

 

Philadelphia is a diffferent animal than Cleveland in terms of downtown "boom," 80's through present.  I think Cleveland can parallel Milwaukee in terms of downtown redevelopment (and in this case, Milwaukee seems ahead, but not by much).

 

I would trade our Shoreway for Milwaukee's lakeside road (N. Lincoln??) and their much better lake access in a heartbeat.

I wouldn't ignore Philly as a model.  We did something similar with our DCA ambassadors, which has helped.  But the OP's video notes several other things Philly did to help their downtown, such as increased lighting and getting retailers to stay open later.  Our downtown really needs more lighting... the Euclid project installed new lights but made them dim on purpose, to avoid light pollution... I don't think we need to worry about that, I think we need to light up our downtown.  See video for example.

 

Philadelphia is a diffferent animal than Cleveland in terms of downtown "boom," 80's through present.  I think Cleveland can parallel Milwaukee in terms of downtown redevelopment (and in this case, Milwaukee seems ahead, but not by much).

 

I would trade our Shoreway for Milwaukee's lakeside road (N. Lincoln??) and their much better lake access in a heartbeat.

 

Agreed.  Milwaukee's lakefront is the one aspect of that city that actually makes me jealous.  Of course, where we have Burke.... they have their Bratenahl equivalent (without the silly municipal boundary lines, of course).

 

NOW, back to the topic of this thread, despite what others may think about the premise.

I just just moved to Philly about 10 days ago.  Philly's Center City has the 3rd highest downtown population of any city in the nation (behind NY and Chi.) so to compare Cleveland to Philly in this regard is doing Philly a bit of an injustice.  Simpy put, the vibrancy in Center City is remarkable and like ColDay said, it is fairly seamless as if flows into surrounding areas, although parts of the CBD do die after 5pm.  As far as other Philly areas, I live in Northern Liberties, the 'hood just north of DT Philly.  It is very up and coming but still gritty in parts.  It is seeing a ton of infill - some good, some really good, and some quite unfortunate.  I have only been here 10 days though so my knowledge of the area is limited.  But with time...

 

And hey MTS, when you're in Philly get at me - we can talk about our long lost favorite thread.  :) 

Don't get your hopes up, he tends to go for guys in their early 20s. 

 

Is 26 too old?  Damnit.  Knew I should've moved to the East Coast right after I graduated. 

I think there are parallels and I've said this before.  The souls of Cleveland and Philly are very close.   They had a Mayor and Governor who wanted to make Phily Pennsylvania's "First City".

 

 

In order to revive downtown/Center City Philly they sacrificed the majority of neighborhoods.  Outside of CC most of Philly is an armpit.

 

 

Over the past 10 years I've watched CC improve and the Convention Center was a huge catalyst.  It brought several new hotels and restaurants = jobs, not to mention they have a better rail transit system than Cleveland and airport with direct flights to Europe.

 

 

Cleveland is about 5-8 years behind Philly and DC when it comes to things but as those cities out-price people, we become the obvious option and it's only a matter of time before we're back in the big ball game.

 

Elaborate please. Are you talking about mindset, music, religion or what? The two cities are not similar at all in the aforemetioned aspects. Both cities have large African American populations, but even the black populations in Cleveland and Philly are pretty different. Regarding the black population in Cleveland, there is a huge conspicuous southern influence that is not as easily found in Philly.

 

Philadelphia also has a fairily renowned music scene, particularly the "Philly Soul" sound that was popular in the 70's, although many of their artists of today still incorporate that sound; Cleveland has nothing similar in that regard. Philly has a HUGE population of black Muslims, they even have a few on city council. In Cleveland, you won't see many black people walking around in hijabs or kufis like you see in Philly.

 

Both are great cities, but I think it is rather silly to compare the two with each other. The vibe, layout, architecture, density, etc, of the two cities are nothing alike. As someone else said, a more suitable comparison would be with Milwaukee, Bufflalo, and to a lesser extent, Detroit. Cleveland feels a lot like those cities than Philly.  Hell, I can barely even see the Cleveland/Chicago comparisons that many people constantly bring up.

I think there are parallels and I've said this before.  The souls of Cleveland and Philly are very close.   They had a Mayor and Governor who wanted to make Phily Pennsylvania's "First City".

 

 

In order to revive downtown/Center City Philly they sacrificed the majority of neighborhoods.  Outside of CC most of Philly is an armpit.

 

 

Over the past 10 years I've watched CC improve and the Convention Center was a huge catalyst.  It brought several new hotels and restaurants = jobs, not to mention they have a better rail transit system than Cleveland and airport with direct flights to Europe.

 

 

Cleveland is about 5-8 years behind Philly and DC when it comes to things but as those cities out-price people, we become the obvious option and it's only a matter of time before we're back in the big ball game.

 

Elaborate please. Are you talking about mindset, music, religion or what? The two cities are not similar at all in the aforemetioned aspects. Both cities have large African American populations, but even the black populations in Cleveland and Philly are pretty different. Regarding the black population in Cleveland, there is a huge conspicuous southern influence that is not as easily found in Philly.

 

Philadelphia also has a fairily renowned music scene, particularly the "Philly Soul" sound that was popular in the 70's, although many of their artists of today still incorporate that sound; Cleveland has nothing similar in that regard. Philly has a HUGE population of black Muslims, they even have a few on city council. In Cleveland, you won't see many black people walking around in hijabs or kufis like you see in Philly.

 

Both are great cities, but I think it is rather silly to compare the two with each other. The vibe, layout, architecture, density, etc, of the two cities are nothing alike. As someone else said, a more suitable comparison would be with Milwaukee, Bufflalo, and to a lesser extent, Detroit. Cleveland feels a lot like those cities than Philly.  Hell, I can barely even see the Cleveland/Chicago comparisons that many people constantly bring up.

 

 

Both are old cities with old building stock, ethnic neighborhoods, historical roots, etc.  Both bottomed out in the 70s and are now both poised to rise again.

 

 

I know all about Philly Soul...I was able to dance to it when it first hit the airwaves!

 

Let No Man Put Asunder - FIRST CHOICE '1977

exactly.  its almost like saying... "well Elkhart's downtown is experiencing a turn around...I wonder what that city can learn from Cleveland?"  Why Cleveland, why not...oh I don't know...Fort Wayne or Muncie or what have you? 

 

All I was saying is many cities experienced a turn around in the early 90's.  Choosing Philly as a point of comparison seems random.  IMO. 

We can debate whether Cleveland (or Cincinnati ) is anything like Philadelphia, but I think the real message of the YouTube Video was missed.  The real take away is that the present and the future are not one and the same.  Just because a neighborhood, city or region has problems today, does not mean they are condemned forever.  Similarly, boomtowns of today should not assume they are blessed for eternity. Things change if people work to make it happen. 

 

I found the video inspiring.  I am sure many in Philly had written off Center City as beyond salvage.  That should be a lesson to the naysayers living in Cleveland, Detroit, Youngstown or any number of our older industrial cities.  Instead of griping about how things are, get to work.

Now THAT'S something we ALL can agree with!

Agreed.  Can we discuss it now?

I have to agree with ColDayMan, Milwaukee is a better comparison than Philly.

 

Philly has 6.1 million in the urban area, Milwaukee has 1.7 million, and Cleveland has 2 million. Philly is nearly three times the size of Cleveland whereas Milwaukee is within 15%.

 

Comparing Cleveland to Philly is like comparing Toledo to Cleveland.

 

 

I think people are confusing the idea of finding useful parallels between Cleveland and Philly with making a statement that Philly is the city that is the most similar to Cleveland.  We can find parallels, probably useful ones, between any two cities.

Ok, so what exactly are the parallels that exist between Cleveland and Philadelphia? Center City had a wonderful rennaisance that any ailing Midwest city could emmulate (all 3 Cs...), but Philly is hardly the only city who has seen a center city re-birth, which is why I'm a little confused why it is being used as a model for Cleveland.  Philly has their art museum, numerous historical tourist sites, huge transit network, large residential base, and of course, a huge daytime worker base.  All of these things mean that there is/was way more potential for rapid growth in Philly than Cleveland, which is why I think some people here are suggesting another more similar city to take cues from.

 

Off the top of my head, I think Portland, Milwaukee, and particularly Seattle might be examples better fit for an Ohio comparison.  Seattle went through some really rough times in the 70's, and was able to bounce back and grow stronger with the advancement of the technology sector (isn't Cleveland trying/doing the same thing but with med).  It is known as a city with pretty crappy weather, has mostly detached homes as its housing stock, and has similar levels of public transit.  Perhaps Seattle offers more lessons for Cleveland (or Cincinnati) than Philadelphia.

I've been asked to unlock this thread, and in doing so - I may have deleted a post or ten that didn't really have much to do with the original topic. That said - feel free to carry on from here, without getting pissy or snippy with each other. It's been a while since we've handed out suspensions, so we might have some overstock to get rid of :evil:

I asked Mayday to unlock this thread

 

Boy did this thread take on a life of its own... All I was trying to do was point out is that Philly in the 70's had issues similar to present day Cleveland: Business exodus to the suburbs, shrinking population, dirty streets. The video I linked to shows a handful of things Philly did to improve its Center City, things that Cleveland can parallel and in some cases has already has (the Center City 'CSR's' and the Downtown Cleveland Alliance immediately comes to mind). This thread isn't about what city best correlates with Cleveland, its about a video that shows what Philadelphia did to improve and what Cleveland can learn from it.

^Not to press the issue, but I think if that is what you were trying to accomplish from this thread, then a more appropriate name would have been useful.  I think the video you linked to is very interesting, and certainly many cities can and have taken similar steps to make sure their downtown's are clean and safe.  However, I still think that Cleveland/Cincinnati can only 'learn' so much from a city that is so much bigger/different.  It seems like Cleveland had a building/development boom around the same time that Philly did, yet hasn't been able to keep the momentum going in the same way.  Is this Cleveland's fault that they weren't able to keep pace with Philly, or is it that Cleveland DID keep pace, just in proportion to the size of the city?

 

The point I was trying to make up thread was that you have to make sure you are comparing apples to apples when discussing drawing inspiration from other cities.  Sure I could watch a video about the NYC subway and be like "hey, look at what Cincinnati can learn!", but that just isn't realistic.  Instead, drawing inspiration from a city relatively new with transit such as Portland or Minneapolis would be much more beneficial.  From what you said about Cleveland already doing much of what Philly did in that video, what exactly can Cleveland learn? Maybe looking into what other, more similar cities have done to 'turn the corner' would be useful.

Maybe we could start a new thread if we contacted all of the SIDs in Milwaukee, Portland, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Baltimore, Indianapolis, Sacramento, San Antonio, Denver, and Calgary and asked them to produce videos chronicling their 20-year histories then post them on YouTube.

^Not to press the issue, but I think if that is what you were trying to accomplish from this thread, then a more appropriate name would have been useful.  I think the video you linked to is very interesting, and certainly many cities can and have taken similar steps to make sure their downtown's are clean and safe.  However, I still think that Cleveland/Cincinnati can only 'learn' so much from a city that is so much bigger/different.  It seems like Cleveland had a building/development boom around the same time that Philly did, yet hasn't been able to keep the momentum going in the same way.  Is this Cleveland's fault that they weren't able to keep pace with Philly, or is it that Cleveland DID keep pace, just in proportion to the size of the city?

 

The point I was trying to make up thread was that you have to make sure you are comparing apples to apples when discussing drawing inspiration from other cities.  Sure I could watch a video about the NYC subway and be like "hey, look at what Cincinnati can learn!", but that just isn't realistic.  Instead, drawing inspiration from a city relatively new with transit such as Portland or Minneapolis would be much more beneficial.  From what you said about Cleveland already doing much of what Philly did in that video, what exactly can Cleveland learn? Maybe looking into what other, more similar cities have done to 'turn the corner' would be useful.

 

Jesus edale... No two cities are ever going to be exactly alike for a perfect comparison. Philadelphia had many issues similar to present day Cleveland and thus the comparison. If you want to compare Cleveland to Portland or Minneapolis than post a video or an article about their resurgence and we can talk about it there.

I've changed the thread title with the hopes it draws more constructive debate and less comparison banter.

So are you actually going to do any comparison, or are you just going to bitch about people not following your poorly named thread's implied purpose? I'll ask again, what can Cleveland learn from Philadelphia that they have not already done?  You said Cleveland has downtown ambassadors, and you said there is the Downtown Cleveland Alliance.  Outside of a Rubin-esque figure coming in and being the downtown Messiah (perhaps this is Dan Gilbert), what can Cleveland do to emulate Philly?

 

Rather than scolding people for participating in your thread, why don't you try to guide discussion and offer up some insights.

i'm sure fargo, n.d. did something, at some time, that cleveland could draw from.  There has to be SOMETHING.  Lets talk about those parallels too since this thread is all about picking two random cities and seeing how they are parallel. 

There was certainly no harm in starting this thread, but I agree with edale.  Downtown Cleveland as a place to live and shop (outside of tower city) is essentially being created from nothing, without the benefit of much cultural continuity or much of a base to build on.  There are no pre-war apartment buildings or rowhouses in downtown Cleveland to restore, no on-street retail base to build off of, no adjacent historic neighborhoods to draw shoppers from on foot.  It amazes me that there aren't even many historic bars or restaurants that have survived downtown, despite the longstanding office population.  This thing we got going on downtown now is exciting, but it's probably more like what's happened in Houston or Dallas or other sun belt cities where traditional office centers are being retrofitted into something else.

So the biggest real estate owner in Center City spearheaded this revival. Is there anyone in Cleveland to fit that bill?

 

The ambassador thing seems largely geared to tourists, which as far as I know tourism is not big enough in Cleveland to have a similar program.

 

The downtown shopping night, where all stores pledge to stay open until at least 8 is perhaps doable. What steps might get this done?

 

Improved lighting can be pushed for with a grass roots campaign.

 

Discuss!

Allow me to kindly suggest that anyone who is really that annoyed/bothered by this thread simply bypass visiting it.  We all have feelings about other cities in Ohio and their residents' views/expectations of them, but it doesn't mean we have to throw them in to every thread possible.

 

Personally, I think the present title is worse than the original.

 

As has been mentioned before, I think Philly's success in converting underutilized office buildings into residential is something Cleveland developers would be wise to look into to.  I'm always a big fan of more lighting, as well.

 

And, FWIW, my cousin is a cop that works the downtown beat in Philly and he thinks Cleveland's downtown is much nicer.  I suppose he regularly sees the ugly side of Center City.

 

^Downtown Cleveland has a decent number of tourists with the RRHOF and sports venues, not including business visits.  Certainly not the amount Philly has, but enough to give some serious consideration on how to make their visits more enjoyable.  That is certainly true with the CC/MM, Casino(s) and Aquarium all coming on line within the next few years.

^In fairness though, all of Cleveland's existing downtown residences are the product of re-purposing former commercial buildings (office, warehouse and department store), so I don't think it's something local developers still need to learn from other cities.

 

Sorry, I meant high-rises.  We really don't have many residential high-rises downtown and the ones that we do have were originally constructed for that purpose.

 

I also never said that they have to 'learn'.... it is more they need the right conditions to evolve.

^My bad, but I think local developers have already been looking into that kind of conversion too (like K&D and Ameritrust tower).  I agree with you though, it's less about learning/looking into or whatever, and more about market conditions.  It's definitely going to happen at some point.

 

The ambassador thing seems largely geared to tourists, which as far as I know tourism is not big enough in Cleveland to have a similar program.

 

 

In my opinion, one of the best consequences of Cleveland's ambassador program has been an improved perception of cleanliness and safety from locals visiting and working downtown, rather than true tourists.  I think that's a bigger and more important accomplishment for the long-term success of the revitalization we've had downtown.