what was Kevin Pollak doing in Cleveland? 

good job with the tour mapboy! i think we need to start a discussion about a school district to serve the downtown area and new neighborhoods to support it. say, north of the main avenue bridge stretching along including the burke lakefront land. i think people would willingly buy homes without tax abatement if they knew their tax dollars were going towards a good school system.

what was Kevin Pollak doing in Cleveland? 

 

He was at Hilarities

Greetings Friends, I (like MapBoy) was responsible for leading these tours. The Crocker Park (AND LAKEWOOD) concepts were eliminated from the tours at the last minute on our second and third familiarization tour. The City of Cleveland and the HR Department from the company came up with the idea of showing the Minneapolis people who were on the first tour, the suburb of Westlake (to make it seem like St. Paul.) Not having visited their region of the US ever, I could not object to their idea, but ruled out showing housing there.

 

I will say that of the 21 people who have decided to come to Cleveland permanently, 17 have made the move to DOWNTOWN Cleveland. A few DID decide to move to Crocker Park actually, with a couple others choosing a home in Lakewood. Those who chose Crocker Park were all single females who felt unsafe downtown. Unfortunately, a shift manager from the company had been jumped near his downtown apartment and that gossip scared a few young ladies from moving downtown. They also offered free parking to their employees which made the deal sweeter. That being said, we still did a very good job (i believe) of getting them into our city. Two more are still deciding. Feel free to check the press releases on www.clevelandcityliving.com as we'll keep updated as the final people make their decisions.

 

And to answer an earlier post on their salaries, they KEPT their salaries from their previous NY, DC, and Minneapolis jobs. So I am assuming they're pretty well compensated just based on on cost of living change.

 

CCL

 

 

Thanks for the updates CCL!  As you surely gathered from reading this thread, there's a lot of emotion here about how we present our city to outsiders (and to locals), which accounts for the outcry in the early parts of this post.  As more information has come to light, however, I've gotten the impression that people are pretty happy with the way we all went about this. 

 

From my personal experience (being very new at this), I felt that we did a great job relating to the visitors and getting across a good image of what Cleveland has to offer in a short, 3-day period.  I'm looking forward to more opportunities to share my experiences with newcomers (and returning Clevelanders) and am excited that there are so many people in the city (and on UO) who share my enthusiasm!

^ And an army of well-informed forumers who are itching to serve as free tour guides  :-D

Welcome to UrbanOhio, CityLiving.  Thanks for getting involved and showing off Cleveland properly.

 

Questions?

Will these tours continue, not only for APP, but other company's thinking of relocating? or people currently in NE Ohio who don't know much about the city/region they live in.

What is the representation of Black, Latin, Asian, Women & Gays/Lesbians on the tourguides?

 

 

 

Yeah, I think these sound like great tours. Why was Lakewood taken off the list? Although I nitpick the city sometimes, Lakewood is a really terrific, really urban community, and it's great for young people, especially in the dense apartment areas.

 

I agree with MTS, especially when it comes to marketing Cleveland just generally, not just tours.

 

 

A part of Lakewood was included in the final tour. The consensus, though, is that word-of-mouth and traditional realtors already do a good job promoting places like Lakewood and Cleveland Heights. A gap exists in awareness of city-living options (though Progressive Urban has done much to reverse this). These tours are meant to help bridge that gap. The figures cited by CityLiving show that when people are actually presented with what's available in the city proper -- rather than shunted off straightaway to the suburbs, as has been the practice of local realtors for decades -- many will bite.

I think we need to light into Jennifers Ass!

 

she was here ONE day.  Boys & Girls.....start your keyboards!

Lovely. It's nice people bash us to make larger points on politics. They should leave us out of their catfights.

My office is all in a tizzy about this (Sun-Times article)...keyboards a'blazin!

"Northeast Ohio is strongly blue-collar Democrat."

 

"Manufacturing jobs have fled. Steel mills have closed."

 

So which is it? If the jobs have fled and the mills have closed - wouldn't that mean that the blue-collar moniker is no longer appropriate?

^^ Of course not, Mayday, because nobody works in Northeast Ohio, duh! You know, what does 4.X% unemployment work out to around here, at least everyone, right?

 

;)

I just wrote a pretty strongly-worded letter to that woman highlighting some of the projects around town.  It just kills me how uneducated people are about this stuff.  But that's what UO is here for, right?  :wink:

What, exactly, did Ms. Hunter write that was incorrect?  Truth be told, I have had similar sentiments when returning home to Cleveland.  Not that the presence of upscale hotels and chain stores makes the city, but let's not be so quick to don blinders of pride.

Is the Ritz not considered an upscale hotel?  And what is wrong with Playhouse Square?? I understand that there are many vacancies, but almost all of those are forced (most spaces are owned by PHS and they aren't making those spaces available till after the ECTP is finished). Some of the things that she says are correct, but she lacks the knowledge to understand the situation.

 

The problem is that the tone of the article makes us sound like we are Flint. Oh, and when did Mittal close its mill?

She parachuted in here on a Tuesday without the historical context of what happened on Monday and the effects of what happened on Wednesday.

 

 

Is the Ritz not considered an upscale hotel?  And what is wrong with Playhouse Square?? I understand that there are many vacancies, but almost all of those are forced (most spaces are owned by PHS and they aren't making those spaces available till after the ECTP is finished). Some of the things that she says are correct, but she lacks the knowledge to understand the situation.

 

The problem is that the tone of the article makes us sound like we are Flint. Oh, and when did Mittal close its mill?

 

Dan &  Wim

 

I agree with both your comments, but as Wim states...the problem is she doesn't state why the current avenues look the way they do nor does she mention what a positive impact those change will have on the city.  Nor did she mention any other part of downtown or Cleveland.

 

I don't think we're putting blinders on, but correcting her "one sided and narrow" opinion/view  - which in insinuates that Cleveland is dead - without knowing what Cleveland is really like, everyday.

 

Bottom line...anyone who reads that will say, "cleveland is a tired depressed dump" and envision the river burning and all the "mistake on the lake" jokes.

Dan, the day she visited, it was maybe 30 degrees out,most of the day it was snowing and the conditions were a bit windy. Now I know this may sound silly but most people tend to not linger outdoors in said conditions. These aren't blinders of pride - these are observations of people who, unlike you or the author, actually live and work here on a day-to-day basis.

 

"This is one sad city, as dingy as the gray lake it sits beside, Lake Erie."

 

Hmm wintertime and overcast... the lake looks grey and dingy. Imagine that!

 

"The downtown streets are soulless: There are few pedestrians on this Wednesday afternoon as I walk back to my hotel from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame."

 

Hmm, few pedestrians on East 9th street (her route to her hotel - the Wyndham) - one of the most windy downtown corridors. Imagine that!

 

"Store after store is shuttered. There are no upscale hotels, few restaurants, no chain stores, and the theater district around Euclid Avenue looks as if it was interrupted in the middle of Act 2: The props remain but the lights are out and the actors have exited stage left."

 

Well, the stretch of Euclid between 9th and the Wyndham looks shabby - however if she (or you, since you only participate in the Steelyard Commons thread) did a little research, she'd know that the northern block is under rehab into residential and the southern half is mostly the Cleveland Trust/1010 Euclid complex (aka County Administration HQ). Add to that the Euclid Corridor construction and well golly gee - I suppose the masses wouldn't be huddled around that area. Had she ventured into Tower City, she would have realized that while it's a far stretch from Michigan Avenue, Brooks Brothers,  Godiva, Ann Taylor, etc. certainly qualify as chain stores. Had she bothered to walk down Euclid toward Public Square, she would have seen the East 4th District - hardly a shabby area as she would like to believe.

 

Shall I continue?

 

 

Boy, I sure started some shit by posting that article!

I think it's a fine line.  Most importantly, you guys who live in Cleveland know the full story.  It's not so important what other people think, as long as you're happy, and you're making Cleveland a better place to live. 

 

At the same time, complacency is deadly.  Most of you who post here regularly are very realistic.  From my own observations, it seems like Clevelanders (and Detroiters) don't realize how far their town has to go before it's on par with a place like Chicago again.

 

And really, MayDay--don't you think you're just a tad patronizing?  Your posts directed toward me are indicative of classic Midwestern stubbornness, and a refusal to believe that maybe some things could stand a bit of improvement.  Seriously--comparing Tower City to Michigan Avenue?  Why do I get the sense that if my handle were different, you wouldn't be such an ass toward me?

^yes; and it sounds like you could write a good letter to her.

I think it's a fine line.  Most importantly, you guys who live in Cleveland know the full story.  It's not so important what other people think, as long as you're happy, and you're making Cleveland a better place to live. 

 

At the same time, complacency is deadly.

 

Dan,

 

Unfortunately, that is not the truth. Cleveland loses a lot due to its negative image. Everything from conventions, to new businesses, to college students, to our own suburban residents. etc etc etc.

MayDay I was thinking the same damn thing!  In addition, Chicago is just as dreary looking in winter as Cleveland.

 

I think it's a fine line.  Most importantly, you guys who live in Cleveland know the full story.  It's not so important what other people think, as long as you're happy, and you're making Cleveland a better place to live. 

 

At the same time, complacency is deadly.

 

Dan in some threads you bash the city for not doing A-B-C, now here you say, "It's not so important what other people think, as long as you're happy, and you're making Cleveland a better place to live".  I find that insulting.  The city is trying to lose its "rust belt" image and articles like this don't help!

 

By correcting her simple ass, we are doing just that!  Making Cleveland a better place to those who do not know any better or those who would form an opinion about Cleveland who live elsewhere.  this woman has an audience, which she is ill advising.  Why shouldn't we correct her?  You state, we know the full story, why shouldn't her readers get "the full story"?? 

"And really, MayDay--don't you think you're just a tad patronizing?  Your posts directed toward me are indicative of classic Midwestern stubbornness, and a refusal to believe that maybe some things could stand a bit of improvement.  Seriously--comparing Tower City to Michigan Avenue?  Why do I get the sense that if my handle were different, you wouldn't be such an ass toward me?"

 

No, I'm being very patronizing because quite honestly you've been an ass to a lot of people on this forum. If you're going to dish it out, you had better be willing to take it.

 

My posts have nothing to do with a refusal to believe that things could stand a bit of improvement - and if you ever get your head out of the Steelyard Commons thread, you'll see that I have no qualms criticizing projects. You have truly illustrated that you "see what you want to see" because if you actually paid attention, you'd realize just how often I (and others for that matter) do suggest how/where things can be improved.

 

A great example is how you are suggesting that I compared Tower City to Michigan Avenue. I didn't. What I did was picked apart her article and pointed out the errors - like you asked us to do. I even said Tower City is a far stretch from Michigan Avenue but her comment that downtown Cleveland lacks any chain stores was incorrect. You ask us "What, exactly, did Ms. Hunter write that was incorrect?". I told you. You read whatever you wanted to read into it. And you wonder why you get treated the way you do. But that's right - it's not you, it's that Midwestern stubborness :roll:

So, can we set a day and time for our march with pitchforks and torches on the Chicago Sun-Times office? I'm busy next week, but I can probably do Tuesday.

Yes, image is important.  You don't change image through words, though.  At some point, the reality has to step up and coincide with the PR. 

 

Marketing can only reflect reality.  Beyond that, it's just sugar-coating.

Yes, image is important.  You don't change image through words, though. 

 

I couldn't disagree with you more.

Dan, both marketing and criticisms should both reflect reality- fairly.  I don't think her comments or yours do.  It's really the error of omission that gets us.  You both latch onto what you don't like and refuse to acknowledge anything else.

my issue with this article is that the first two paragraphs have nothing to do with the rest of the article.  maybe they don't teach that in Canadian journalist school.

 

this, from her bio: She intends to keep on writing until someone tells her to stop. And she will likely ignore them anyway.

You both latch onto what you don't like and refuse to acknowledge anything else.

 

Would you rather waste energy fixing things that already work?

Yes, image is important.  You don't change image through words, though. 

 

I couldn't disagree with you more.

 

I missed this gem. Now Dan's got me as mad is this dumb Obama beat writer. Words are EVERYTHING.

"Would you rather waste energy fixing things that already work?"

 

And yet you think we wear blinders?

Quote from: 3231 on Today at 03:57:12 PM

Quote from: DaninDC on Today at 03:50:25 PM

Yes, image is important.  You don't change image through words, though.

 

I couldn't disagree with you more.

 

I missed this gem. Now Dan's got me as mad is this dumb Obama beat writer. Words are EVERYTHING.

 

Well, why don't you ask Detroiters how well all the hype for Super Bowl XL worked out for them.   

 

Madison Avenue doesn't build cities.  PEOPLE build cities. 

Tokyo makes Chicago look like Peoria. :)

Quote from: 3231 on Today at 03:57:12 PM

Quote from: DaninDC on Today at 03:50:25 PM

Yes, image is important.  You don't change image through words, though.

 

I couldn't disagree with you more.

 

I missed this gem. Now Dan's got me as mad is this dumb Obama beat writer. Words are EVERYTHING.

 

Well, why don't you ask Detroiters how well all the hype for Super Bowl XL worked out for them.   

 

Madison Avenue doesn't build cities.  PEOPLE build cities. 

 

I lived in Detroit during the ramp up to the Super Bowl, and the goal for Detroiters was not creating delusions that they had transformed into this magical place overnight. What they were trying to convey was an optimistic image. The idea being: Yeah, we've had and have problems, but we're working through it. Unfortunately, media outlets like to come back to Detroit and beat the $h1t out of the city because it's an easy target.

 

Here's the fundamental problem with what this woman wrote -- it's not a fair portrait of what's happening in Cleveland. As a columnist, she is as guilty as a marketer who stretches the truth when advertising a product. What she did was take a certain set of realities and arrange them in a way so that they would work with her view of the world.

 

For example...

The reality: The Theater District is torn to shreds because we are in the middle of a massive road project.

Her take: Disarray is a symptom of Cleveland's desperation and why Ohioans on the whole are clinging to the allure of Democrats.

 

So are her "facts" correct? Sure, Euclid Avenue has a lot of vacancies. Sure, E.9th is devoid of pedestrians in the middle of winter. But as a journalist, she should be committed to finding out why these things are how they are. Context is important.

Truly, Euclid Avenue does look like crap right now, except for a small section around E. 4th Street. The County should be ashamed of the way their buildings look at E. 9th and Euclid. Boarded up windows, dirty facades -- and they're not even close to getting started on the construction/renovation yet. Practically next door is the Atrium, looking like it barely survived an earthquake. If we can't keep the buildings themselves looking nice, let's at least post signs -- world-class signs, even ;) -- informing people about the Euclid Corridor Project.

 

I think in a way it's good that we've had a reality check here. People from out of town see our city every day, and most probably have similar reactions. They don't have the time or interest to research why downtown looks the way it does -- they just know they're depressed. I am confident things will get much better in a few years, but in the meantime we're giving lots of people bad impressions.

"For over a decade Ohio was considered a solid red state -- it pushed George W. Bush into office in 2004 -- until last November when it embraced the Democratic Party with a big hug."

 

Now *this* statement is patently false. Ohio was among the most hotly contested states in the country in 2000; in 2004 it was by many accounts THE most hotly contested. In '04, Bush won by a measly 2% margin.

^^ I agree with you, the last time I was In Cleveland (Dec ’06) I was almost a little teary eyed driving down Euclid Avenue. Something indicating a “work in progress” would perhaps give visitors a different impression.

 

My problem with the article is that the state of entire city is based on a trip from a hotel room to the Rock Hall.

 

As for the typical post following the article, buttons will be pushed as long as we all keep responding.

Since this lady is a "professional" I can understand why we'd be upset with how she portrayed Cleveland-this urban wasteland in a continuous downward spiral.  Lack of research indeed! 

 

However, there's a lot of "truth" to what she said and to those passing through our great city (downtown especially), this is sadly the impression.  Without knowing anything about the current and/or planned projects, things may look a bit grim. She should have researched and placed her thoughts in an accurate context but she didn't. And to some passer-bys, they don't have time to go beneath the surface.  AND, if they're not urban enthusiasts like ourselves, they won't read into the city any deeper.  We can say "w/e" and "forget them" but they're $ spending humans, too.  Oh, and I hate when weather is a part of any city's pros/cons because clearly there are great cities throughout the world with completely different climates.  :x I'm sorry but a gray day in Chicago, New York, London or Paris is MUCH different than a gray day in Cleveland.  People, storefronts, taxis, etc. add much color to a cityscape and can make the grayest day very vibrant.  Enough with WEATHER!  Why do we blame things we can't control?!  :wtf:

It's annoying reading this article because everything she criticizes seems to be on the 3-5-7-10 year path to completion/revival.  Even ECP's 2008 completion date??? will take a few years AT LEAST to creating a pulsating streetscape, let alone a Michigan Ave or Rivoli. That'd be nice...  Trees takes decades to reach maturity, but if you don't water the seed-hell even plant it, NOTHING will grow. 

 

Oh, and if we can't take criticism from someone who seems to care for the city (DaninDC), why the hell should we take it from someone who could give two sh*ts about what goes on in Cleveland? Let's give the guy a break.  The truth hurts sometimes and just because his zip code isn't 441_ _, doesn't mean he can only say things that smell like roses.  Outside views are essential.  Without contrast, against what would we measure our city?  :wtf: Let's not kid ourselves-while we're not trying to duplicate another city, we all know how Cleveland should function.  We're not reinventing the wheel-we're trying VERY HARD to replace some bald and flat tires.

 

I love everyone here and Cleveland!!!  :wave:

 

 

 

 

As an outsider (one who unfortunately hasn't been to Cleveland before) I feel that this writer unfairly portrayed Cleveland as well.  Yes she is trying to make a point about the political climate in the state, and Cleveland makes for an easy target (having the most rust-belt history of the 3 C's).  Sure its easy to portray a former rust-belt city as a dump hole to outsiders who most likely haven't been there.  Pittsburgh often times suffers from the same thing.

 

The points are valid that it was cold, windy, etc.  But it is unfair to compare Cleveland or any Ohio city to Chicago.  I mean give me a damn break...Chicago is as big as the 3c's put together, of course it is better!  But I doubt Cleveland is as bad as what she makes it out to be.  Most of Cleveland's problems are similar to Cincy's.  There are inner-city neighborhoods struggling and the city is barely scraping by.  But she was downtown...and Cleveland (like Cincy) has a downtown that is improving greatly and is already quite nice.  Its not the best, but it sure as hell isn't as bad as reported most times.

 

Ohio is beginning to turn it around, and she could have easily used that formula to support her pro-democratic stance for the state.  But she chose to go another route...and unfortunately the easy route (not the best route) is what is taken more often than not.

Again, my point is that it was a whole lotta trash-talking that had little to do with the meat of the article.

 

To her credit, she's already responded to my email with a number of comments.  She apparently spent multiple days walking around town and interviewing locals, which is what she based her statements on.  We all know that Cleveland (and Downtown in particular) doesn't function as we would like it to be.  It was all that much more apparent to her, coming from Chicago, and she apparently felt that was a good way to lead into the article.  I still disagree.

 

I also agree with B12 that the real content of the article (about the political debate) was more than a little sketchy...

^ Even if we concede that downtown Cleveland looks like hell, I don't see what that has to do with the 2008 presidential election. The reason it looks bad is because everyone fled to the suburbs years and years ago, and now we're trying to convince people to come back. There are more than enough jobs and businesses in the greater Cleveland area to occupy and create a 100% vibrant downtown. We as a community just choose not to.

The Sun-Times is a rag, it is the "19 action news" of newspapers.  If this article was in the Tribune, then I would be upset.

 

 

Chicago is overrated.  I chose NYC, Philly, or Cleveland any day of the week.

As much as I disagree with the author, I wouldn't say that Chicago is overrated. I'd say that Cleveland is very underrated.

^ Even if we concede that downtown Cleveland looks like hell, I don't see what that has to do with the 2008 presidential election. The reason it looks bad is because everyone fled to the suburbs years and years ago, and now we're trying to convince people to come back. There are more than enough jobs and businesses in the greater Cleveland area to occupy and create a 100% vibrant downtown. We as a community just choose not to.

 

Right on.  Much of downtown does look like hell right now (with about nine hundred asterisks) but her political extrapolations from this observation are really remarkably moronic.

Since this lady is a "professional" I can understand why we'd be upset with how she portrayed Cleveland-this urban wasteland in a continuous downward spiral.  Lack of research indeed! 

 

However, there's a lot of "truth" to what she said and to those passing through our great city (downtown especially), this is sadly the impression.  Without knowing anything about the current and/or planned projects, things may look a bit grim. She should have researched and placed her thoughts in an accurate context but she didn't. And to some passer-bys, they don't have time to go beneath the surface.  AND, if they're not urban enthusiasts like ourselves, they won't read into the city any deeper.  We can say "w/e" and "forget them" but they're $ spending humans, too.  Oh, and I hate when weather is a part of any city's pros/cons because clearly there are great cities throughout the world with completely different climates.  :x I'm sorry but a gray day in Chicago, New York, London or Paris is MUCH different than a gray day in Cleveland.  People, storefronts, taxis, etc. add much color to a cityscape and can make the grayest day very vibrant.  Enough with WEATHER!  Why do we blame things we can't control?!  :wtf:

It's annoying reading this article because everything she criticizes seems to be on the 3-5-7-10 year path to completion/revival.  Even ECP's 2008 completion date??? will take a few years AT LEAST to creating a pulsating streetscape, let alone a Michigan Ave or Rivoli. That'd be nice...  Trees takes decades to reach maturity, but if you don't water the seed-hell even plant it, NOTHING will grow. 

 

I have to agree with you.  Her article is the way I felt about NE Ohio and the reason I left.  Some days when I go home I would feel like Cleveland is stuck in 1998.  Coming to UrbanOhio, has dispelled some of the anger I felt to Cleveland and its leaders, but the city is still at best a mid level second tier city.

 

I know the city is making progress, but on the it just seems sooooooooooooo slow.  If I had not been introduced to Urban Ohio, I would believe everything she said and finish the article thinking Cleveland is dump and to cross it off my list as a place to even visit, to see if the article is accurate.  The weather isn't an excuse, in NYC, Boston, DC, people would still be out going from store to store.  In downtown Cleveland where is there to go but TowerCity?  If this writer did visit other areas of downtown she should have mentioned that, she told "a half truth".

 

I do think you guys should write her and give her an "update" and find out what the state of downtown really has to do with the 2008 election, unless she is trying to say, "A sad place like Cleveland is looking for anew leadership and help, and unless obama is elected the city will decline."

 

If you say nothing, you'll risk the cities image being damaged by those who don't read other papers or have a real grasp of what's going on.  As someone said earlier, articles like this can have a negative affect financially on so many other levels.

 

 

A great showing for the Womens Basketball Final Four set in Cleveland would offset any writers negative comments about the city.  Cleveland needs to do a good job presenting the city when there is a large amount of out of towners coming to visit